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Messages - oliver90owner

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751
General Discussion / Re: Semi-diesel
« on: September 06, 2007, 05:00:46 PM »
Hi there unimogr,
Field Marshall wasn't a hot bulb diesel.  Started from cold with a modified shotgun cartridge or hand cranked with a glowing saltpetre wick. No blow lamp needed.  Will burn all sorts of fuel and is a two stroke like the Lanz.
Regards, RAB

752
Listeroid Engines / Re: Source for spin on type filter mount.
« on: September 06, 2007, 07:22:55 AM »
Me? I would pop down to the local scrappy and check out any scrapped diesel cars.  recycle, not reproduce.
Or, as another suggestion to those above - a central heating or oil supplier would be able to supply big ones, small ones and the right micron value.  Lube oil filters are probably to coarse for fuel and I would have thought we are looking at very low microns here, as spec, and a lot of lube filters are in the ten or more region (high flow rate and long life (volume delivered)).  Horses for courses, as we say.
Regards, RAB

753
I think you wil find that non-detergent oils will clean up by sedimentation much faster (still a long time, though) than detergent based oils, so in case of an engine standing for many years, that oil probably looked clean a loooong time before you found it. 
That is why we used to clean out sumps at overhauls, and, latterly, not change from non-detergent to detergent engine oil without being very careful of the possible consequences. 
Presumably this is due in part to the oil not allowing agglomerates to form and thus thermal changes are adequate to keep the micron and sub-micron particles suspended.   Colloidal suspension we call it, when it will never separate out and will pass through the finest filter medium.  probably not quite there with used engine oil, but close.
Regards, RAB

754
General Discussion / Re: Semi-diesel
« on: September 05, 2007, 07:47:29 AM »
To RCAV,

I think you jest or maybe not.
Semi referring to trucks means articulated, hinged, separable into tractor and trailer - as opposed to rigid chassis.

Regards, RAB

755
Engines / Re: Head Gaskets
« on: September 05, 2007, 07:40:56 AM »
Guys (and Gals).

If there is a problem with liner protrusion, that is one thing.  Hotator seems to have that sorted/covered.

Now, if there are other problems (as well?), each will need to be addressed in a sensible order.  No point in machining cyliner top to be parallel with bottom if it is the bottom end where the fault lies! No point in changing top face angle if liner seat is not addressed also. Etc,etc.

Re-iterating - there may be different things in need of correction; each case should be considered from an engineering point of view to find the best logical solution, without changing other design parameters.

Regards, RAB

756
Engines / Re: Refitting the valve train - is it this straightforward?
« on: September 03, 2007, 05:38:00 PM »
Eadie,

EVERYTHING is straightforward where a CS is concerned.  That is one of the most important features of this design.  It probably won't matter if you are couple of thou off when setting the exhaust and a thou off for the inlet. 
The gaps are not the really important part engineering-wise.  They are simply a means of getting the valve timing to design values while making sure there is clearance when both hot and cold!

If you study the Lister parts manual and the maintenance/service/specification you might note the following: cam parts are identical for both the 6/1 and 8/1 (excepting the governor weights) but the exhaust valve timings (degrees of crankshaft rotation before or after either bottomm dead centre or top dead centre) are different for each engine variant.  That difference in valve timing is imparted by altering the valve clearances - OK the book says the inlet valves have the same timing so I need to check up the values in my much older literature!  You will need to know the values for your particular clone - it could well be different from the original Lister specs.  Surely these things were included in a manual of some sort when your engine was new?

As a rule of thumb, 40 thousandths of an inch is one millimetre.  Close enough as 'damn it' is to swearing.  Neither you, I, nor Mr Lister could easily tell the real difference.

When setting the tappet clearance, the important thing is to check the reading afterwards.  If they are wrong you will soon find the secret to altering them slightly.  Don't overtighten the lock nuts or you will stretch threads somewhere.  If you know how much, exactly, the difference one complete turn makes, you will soon note that one flat on a hexagonal lock nut is exactly one sixth of the full-turn value.

Regards, RAB
BTW when I read my post (from this am) I realised my first sentence was a bit awry.  Sorry about that but I wouldn't think it was misconstrued in the context of the post.

757
Engines / Re: Refitting the valve train - is it this straightforward?
« on: September 03, 2007, 07:25:52 AM »
Eady,
Unless you interfere with the cam shaft timing the valves will open when the cam follower is lifted.  The push rods only connect the cam to the valves, movement wise. 
However, whenever the head is removed, the valve clearance will need checking/resetting (and also after re-torquing the head after the initial run).  It is also entirely probable that you have a different thickness of packing gasket under the block (to alter the piston/head clearance).  That will affect the distance between the valve lifters and rocker assembly too.

Valve clearance is a regular service adjustment and should be checked/reset at the service intervals suggested by the engine manufacturer or more often.

Regards, RAB

758
Think room electric fires, kettles, immersion water heaters, electric cookers, microwaves, irons, ......
RAB

759
Engines / Re: Mounting temp sensor
« on: August 30, 2007, 08:31:31 AM »
Getterdone, RCAV, others(?)

one question.........any comments on these two questions?      (Getterdone)

Did I miss a question?

Seriously though are you are mostly all missing a few tricks?

1)  Why generate power to use for nothing most of the time?  1.5 amps might be 18 watts at 12 volts or 180 watts at 120 volts!  BUT, it is all lost power if not needed.  A totally passive element is much better than a non-fail-safe electronic or electrical gizmo.  A static arrangement generally does not need to have the size constraints of a mobile installation.
Remember the old boiler fail-safe system?  A 'fuse' wire (low temperature melting point) over the installation with a brick hanging on the wire - too hot, wire melts, brick crashes down and wakes the operator!  >:( (Well not quite like that, but you get the idea).

2)  Why monitor air flow?  Over-temperature is the important parameter, not air flow, which several(?) of you freely admit in your posts.

3)  Some should be using the heat from the radiator (and the exhaust?) to further lower operating costs or to maximise energy use from the fuel supply.

4)  Some form of reset is required when the set is shut down automatically for a fault condition, so the operator is aware of the failure and doesn't just restart the machine and it needs to be visual to alert the operator (operator would hit knuckles on afore-mentioned brick if they tried to crank the engine?)

My philosophy is the KISS principle.  Keeping things simple generally means easy fixes and fewer false alarms at low cost of installation.

I hope I am not treading on anyone's toes too heavily.  From my limited recent readings, I think RCAV is possibly the joker on the forum - even so, competency is not questioned - and I have been known to make 'tongue in cheek' replies to silly questions

Being in to renewables, sustainables or waste utilisation makes me think about all these little parasitic losses, I guess.

Regards, RAB


760
Hi KellyR,
 
You wrote: my lack of diesel expertise

Now you may well be aware that there is no spark plug on a diesel.  The diesel engine relies on compression of the air charge to release energy from the charge as heat - enough heat to make the charge hot enough to immediately burn the fuel as it is sprayed in as a fine mist/spray (the injection).

Ideally the compression is very fast and all, or very nearly all, the heat stays in the gas.  That is termed adiabatic conditions.  However if the metal surfaces are cooler than the gas, heat will pass to the metal by conduction and start to heat up the metal with consequent cooling of the gas. 
Now, under starting conditions quite a lot of the heat energy is lost as the compressed charge is swirling around in the combustion chamber.  If there is not enough temperature to spontaneously ignite the fuel as it is injected your engine will not start.  The colder it is the more heat is  lost from the compressed gas.  That is assuming the compression is adequate in the fiirst place to 'free up' enough heat energy.

That is why direct injection engines will start (and run) on much lower compression ratios than indirect injection ones (the air charge is shoved through the 'ducting' to the pre-combustion chamber in the indirect injection system and so loses more heat energy than a direct injected engine. 
That is why the original CS's had a change over valve for starting - high compression for starting and lower compresssion for running on heavy loads.

So other fixes...

Turn engine much faster - difficult with cold oil and hand cranking  or starter motor (is only one speed) and battery power is down under cold conditions etc etc.  Hence the pony (or donkey motor as it is known on our side of the pond).

Use heater plugs - squirt that fuel onto a glowing plug and that helps to get it going.

Heat the engine. Running hot water through the engine or whatever improves the starting just like starting a warm or hot engine.

Heat the in-going air - several systems from burning fuel in the inlet manifold to waving a gas torch around in the induction air.

Use a more volatile fuel - like don't try to start it on lard!

Use starting fluid - works but unless under very cold conditions I don't like this idea.  The volatile starter fluid can burn with an excessive flame path speed and easily damage the engine (detonation or explosion speeds cause shock waves which can break rings overload bearings etc).

So the choice is yours.  Which way you go might depend on whether the compression ratio is too low, compression is being lost, too slow cranking, or whatever.  A heater plug addition for cold starting may be the best plan, I don't know whether the engine could standhigher running compression or not....

Hope this helps and you understand the diesel a little more now than at the beginning.

Regards, RAB

761
Engines / Re: Mounting temp sensor
« on: August 23, 2007, 08:41:42 AM »
 :)   By now you could have gotten another junker radiator and added to, or replaced, your present one (maybe all the junker radiators have been shipped to China to make more imports?).  No power required, has already been made, used and discarded - so no real extra carbon footprint - and would work in a powercut!
Regards, RAB

762
Listeroid Engines / Re: Need your opinion on these big end shells
« on: August 22, 2007, 06:52:54 PM »
With reference to motoercycle engines - it is generally  a specific requirement that any cylinder-ported two stroke engine will need pinned rings to avoid any risk of them being fitted with the ring ends overlapping a port.  I have never came across any 4 stroke engines with pinned rings but I have not seen them all, of course.  Genaral rebuild protocol is to stagger ring gaps around piston while avoiding gaps directly on  the thrust side of the piston.
Regards, RAB

763
Don't want to be a killjoy but remember you can't just keep hanging weight on a shaft.  The flywheels mentioned above are probably on shafts with considerably larger cross section area and supported by some serious inboard bearings or bearings on either side, close to the mass in both cases.  Take care.
Regards, RAB

764
Lister Based Generators / Re: 1800 Rpm vs 3600 rpm Same HP?
« on: August 20, 2007, 08:05:29 AM »
Hi, you wrote: 'I never thought about it at the time, but could it be it takes more power to run 3600 rpm vs 1800 ?'

5kW is 5Kw whether it is DC, AC, mechanical or heat.  The speed will make no difference to that.  What might make a small difference is the bearing and belt losses, etc. 

Your machine:

An overly large generator may only be at it's most efficient somewhere near full load - advertising specs often don't give too much info on this.  Think about it; no load at all, you are still driving the machine so efficiency is zero.  Full load, you still have the same drive losses but they are relatively insignificant as a %compared to low load. Remember, for instance, the cooling fan on that generator is designed for 5kW output, so that will always be oversized. 

All these things are relatively small but are all additive: 4 lots of 5% mean a whacking 20% in total - that's 1.2 of your 6 .5 horses! Now 20% of 5kW is a 1kW loss ; that same IkW lost out of 3kW is 33%.  See my drift? Figures may not be right for your situation/installation but the similarity will hold true.  Remember, we only have power losses, no gains from input to output!

it is generally accepted that one needs about 10 HP to drive a 5kW generator (2HP/kW).

Hope this helps.
regards, RAB

765
Listeroid Engines / Re: Squish/bump test
« on: August 18, 2007, 06:18:16 PM »
Hi Eady, I'm new here.
I registered because I saw those two micrometer readings and the difference appeared to be 0.05mm, not 0.5mm.  It has taken a few hours to get on and I see someone else has, at last, sorted you!.

A couple of points.  The marks on the big end bearings (previous post) look to me like they were hand scraped - well hand scraped with a machine, perhaps.  That is the way it used to be done before precision bearings arrived on the scene (or not so precise in your case).  Your engine , unfortunately,appears to be made to lower tolenances than the original CS (by Lister) in that the machining is pretty marginal if they are unable to get the crank at right angles to the top crankcase machined surface.    As someone else said, a stright edge and feeler guages are generally enough tech without a high tech micrometer.

The original Lister spec for the squish was simply to set the block (cylinder) height by adding or removing the shim gaskets so that the piston was level with the top of the cylinder when the piston was top dead centre (straight edge, no space for a feeler guage).  Simple as that.  The compressed gasket thickness was the squish.

If you have a wet liner, the original simplicity has been degraded a bit and would need more measurements to ascertain the correct piston height.

Now I am wondering if your engine has taper roller bearings (TRBs) for the main crankshaft suport.  These may be 'adjustable' to get the crank in proper alignment.   Als  

o, if set up  too loose they may indicate different squish readings by the crush method you are using.  Good, these 'oids'.

Adding to the fact that the compression COV (Change Over Valve) has largely been discontinued, and that diffeent fuels are being used (bio diesel and vegetable oils [new and waste])the compression is perhaps a little more important these days than when they just burned lower grade diesel fuels.

I am certainly not an engineer (just a keen enthusiast of old iron) but being older means there is an amount of experience on tap - that is why I registered this morning (was amazed that nobody had noticed your gaffe) .  I usually look at a design and think 'why did they do it that way?'.  There is usually a simple reason considering the technology level of the day.  
For instance, you might wonder why they had a dipper and an oil tray with the main oil sump below.  The oil level in the tray was easy to keep constant for the dipper, even with large losses of oil quantity from the engine, but also the crud from the oil/fuel/ operator had somewhere to settle (main sump) and not circulate around with the oil (which was non detergent in those days [well it was just oil, as detergent oils had not been invented]).  Worked well in all ways - low pressure, limited filtering, copious amounts to the main bearings, regular and constant supply to the big end bearing and splash feed around the rest of the engine.
So my next question is how is your engine's oil supply organised?  I understand the main sump has been at least minimised on some of these 'oids', the oil pump has been removed on some (TRBs don't need it) and others have a high degree of oil filtering using a pressurised system.  Modern day controls can shut down an engine if parameters stray outside limits, but in those days (Britain in 1930s and Middle East market up until middle 80s) relied on low tech methods.  Simplicity and sturdyness to thwart the operator who just oiled it up ocasionally and left it running unattended for long periods.  Don't get me wrong, some engines were operated under fine conditions but the design was rugged and simple to avoid problems with those that were not so caring as we are, or should be, these days.

Sorry for the long intro but if you are not sure, ask.  Just remember they did fine with simple methods and mostly large tolerances back in the 1930s. Just that Listers had proper engineers who solved the problems for the design using 1920s technology and, boy oh boy, they got it right!  Some say the listeroids are progress, some say if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  That design has certainly stood the test of time.
Regards, RAB

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