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Messages - GuyFawkes

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31
Generators / Re: Low speed (rpm) gen head?
« on: January 14, 2009, 11:00:09 AM »
Dude, I'm local to you and my grandad built most of the waterwheels in devon, when it comes to retrofitting small wheels like yours for generating electrical power there is only one system that consistently works.

1/ Get effective wheel RPM geared up to something more useful, e.g 500 rpm minimum.

2/ generate DC

item #1 ideally you'll find a nice sealed hypoid gearbox, quiet, safe, reliable, if not, you'd be amazed what you can do with a bunch of toothed timing type belts, they handle far more power than people think, and the pulleys are easy / cheap to make.

As an aside I have sat here a 135 VDC @ 900 RPM 3.25 Kw jobbie sat here, which is the sort of thing to be looking for.

https://surfbaud.dyndns.org/sites/photo%20album/index.php/pictures/dynamo/DSCF0011.JPG?action=resize

32
The variable roller gear was a side effect of a Continuosly Variable Transmission (CVT) design.  The resulting internal torque transfer was an artifact I had to minimize for the CVT.  I am searching for an application that will benefit from this torque transfer and appreciate the discussion on the benefits and drawbacks.  Maybe an AVR generator is the best option to solve flicker, but I am hoping a constant speed output could be of use somewhere. 

RAB,
www.lib.ucdavis.edu/dept/pse/resources/cvt04/papers/04CVT-18.pdf


1/ You can patent anything, there is no quality control effected by the patent office or process

2/ Even some things that can be made to work, should not.

This "design" (I hesitate to use the term on something that goes against the grain of good engineering so flagrantly) is a study in too many components / linkages / vectors / tolerances to ever effectively do what is a simple job with any meaningful level of power density or reliability.

In england we would say "heath-robinson"

If the "inventor" wishes to throw away his time in pursuit of this "design" that is his business, but everyone else should be cautioned against having anything to do with it.

33
Listeroid Engines / Re: crank case width
« on: December 23, 2008, 07:38:28 AM »
look at the rollers, look at the applications, all start stop start stop


when is the one time a plain bearing is weak?

before the hydrodynamic wedge has built up

34
Listeroid Engines / Re: crank case width
« on: December 23, 2008, 12:00:42 AM »

Was always curious why the cost conscious Japs often used built up cranks with ball and roller bearings instead of one piece and plain. Although never as curious as I am with Velo for some of their engineering , errrrr , solutions !! LOL !!

I can tell you the answers to that, from memory quoting actual honda and kawasaki lead engineers.

In typical inscrutable fashion "why did you turbo the CX500 first?" they usually gave every answer except the real one, thermal rejection... but these are the answers to your question.

1/ they weren't sure they could consistently produce large enough billets of good enough steel to cast or machine "normal" cranks, volume, not length, and the controlled cooling thereof, eg all that easy to say, makes rocket science looks like childs play, austentic vs martensic business, so camshafts with small "depth" easy, crankshafts a no-no

2/ lubrication, japanese motobike big ends often ran at zero pressure, irrespective of what the pump was doing, think centripetal force acting on the oil circuit, and rollers will take intermittent lubrication, and high pressures of rollers takes you right back to answer #1 above... (japs did lots of induction hardening experiments, if fact lots of experiments, cb450 valve train etc)

3/ oil technology, at the time the likes of castrol used to visit the likes of British bike makers and say "hey, we have  anew version of castrol r out next year", the Japanese were the first to REALLY go to the oil companies and say "hey, we need an oil to this spec, we don't care what it costs per litre" (incidentally they tried the same thing with tyres) because the fact is the finest motor oil that money could buy that was also available pretty much anywhere was indeed Castrol R or equivalent. This answer takes you right back to answer #2 and answer #1

Incidentally I could name drop here japanese engineers and oil chemists, there are some really interesting stories there, easily on a par with Exide and SOE in early WW2, but it really is true.

Nobody who wasn't a practising engineer pre world war 2 can really understand, because they are the only ones who can remember, first hand, what lube tech was like.... my dad held a steam and electric ticket for christ sakes...

A bottle of generic synthetic available on any forecourt today is to them what Star Trek is to us.

The japs built engines with built up cranks and rollers because they didn't have any choice, sure, there were lots of other considerations like engine width in a transverse bike engine, look at the old Sunbeam bikes for the only other solution, and out of this need came the requirement for oil.


35
Listeroid Engines / Re: crank case width
« on: December 22, 2008, 05:11:52 PM »
I have experience of TRB applications to relate. I once worked in an industrial power transmission company as a summer job and did some time building electric motor driven gearboxes. The ones with TRB's on the output shaft were shimmed to a tolerance of zero to 3 thou clearance. Whenever I've encountered TRB's in wheel bearings , including motorcycles, there is always clearance.
In fact , the only application I know of where pre-load on TRB's has been specified is on the crank mains on Velocette single motorcycles. This is an unusual application though , alloy crankcases that "flex" and move apart when hot. I seem to recall that preload conflicted with advice from the bearing manufacturer but Velocettes research showed that very slight assembly preload when cold resolved a bearing failure issue they were having. Then you have to realise that Velo's were very esoteric machines !!!


You also have to realise steel crankshaft sat in aluminium engine case, coefficients of linear expansion, bearings, for the use of.

The japs were good at developing needle roller mains and big ends on motorbikes, but even then they had to go to oversquare motors, as much for the increased bearing width as anything else.

Even the "tuned" jap engines didn't come close to some of the old english stuff when it came to actual bearing pressures, when you start running long stroke motors (with therefore narrow bearings) at 12.5:1 with mechanical points it really wasn't any problem at all to push way beyond oil technology limits, metal technology limits of course haven't changed.

Tapered rollers (with pronounced "thick" rollers) have pretty much always been seen as "lazy" engineering, eg a "get out" after you fucked up and earlier stage of the design and left too little room to fit (and service) a "proper" bearing.

Nota Bene a tapered roller, comma, bearing, not a tapered, roller bearing.

Even "money no expense" and "safety first" applications where TRBs are carrying passenger rolling stock getting axle loads of 30 tons is really pushing the envelope....

Tell me you've calculated peak momentary loads in a 6/1...

Nota Bene in these railroad applications with a typical 860 mm wheel diameter you have a axle RPM of approx 650 at 120 kmh train speed.

Nota Bene 2,000 hours is considered a useful service life for these very expensive bearings, 5,000 hours with no fretting is something to write home about.

5 yrs / 5,000 hours was Cat's world beating warranty, there are just under 8800 hours in a year.

===================================

By contrast, a plain bearing doesn't have a service life, quite apart from the fact that loads of 30 tons are nothing to a plain bearing, provided the lubricant is maintained at a certain quality and the film is maintained properly there is no mechanical wear.

Plain bearings require more shaft, so everything gets wider, and plain bearings don't do thrust by themselves, but, you can split em, so you can put bearings anywhere, and if you can line bore and white metal there is no limit to the length or diameter of shafting that can be supported by plain bearings.

=================================

There is no way on this planet that a COMPETENT plain to TRB conversion on a genuine lister will come in cheaper than a blueprint (again, most people don't even know what that means) rebuild of the Lister....

because ya gotta blueprint before you can convert to TRB

Sure, a MONKEY can do it cheaper, but not properly.




36
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: TRB Crank HELP
« on: December 20, 2008, 11:33:11 AM »
what a lot of shit, I asked a reasenable question and what do answers do I get MOSTLY CRAP.
what a waste of time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, you asked a fucking stupid question, and when someone calls you on it you act like you are the offended one.

37
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: TRB Crank HELP
« on: December 19, 2008, 10:55:18 PM »


Now that's funny your calling me a bloody idiot now LOL.  Did you even bother to read this thread fully?  You may want to note that I posted on page one that 'this would not be a direct bolt up anyway' and explained he would have to shim etc.  I did not use the same terms as you I.e plug and play but my inference was the same.

Oh excuse me, you decided to throw in some technical buzzwords, as though this in some way altered the physical challenges involved, and now you're upset because you get called on it.


Quote
Now as to your newspaper article I did read it actually unlike as it appears you in reading this whole thread.  After reading it I made the assumption from that and your post that you hate to see people do stupid stuff and sadly sometimes kill people, a noble cause.  I then merely respectfully suggested that to further your noble cause you take the time to inform him why he his being stupid.  To not do that does not in anyway help that person from being stupid

see, you don't even begin to understand me

I have never yet seen one of these "accidents" where the "guilty party" was not in one form or another "encouraged" by a bunch of equally stupid bastards saying what they think sound like technically competent things like "you may have to shim it dude" because basically none of these "chorus of fools" is ever anywhere to be seen when they chips fall.

you think the stupid bastard who killed his own kids was 100% responsible for the state of that vehicle do you? not just legally, but morally?

Quote
If say for example someone informed you that they intended to fit their front disc brakes with one disc bigger than the other do you honestly believe that only calling them stupid or idiot and nothing more than that would suffice.  That they would then follow you blindly based on personal slurs alone.  Furthermore if you did not bother to take the time and explain to them why then seems to me that you then became an enabler towards the alleged crime yourself.

Telling them they are a stupid bastard may or may not have an effect, at the time, on that person, what it REALLY does is nail something to the mast where everyone can see it, and later, WHEN someone gets maimed or killed (go on, ask me how many times I have been there in my short time on this planet) those responsible are unable to act innocent in my presence...

...so of course it soon becomes a personality issue and it is all my fault for being an arrogant bastard.

the assholes of this world are blameless...

Quote
To blindly follow someone based on their insults only seems equally as stupid to me and a smart person would hopefully respond 'oh really and why exactly is that.'  But then again what do I know, I'm just a bloody idiot.

oh, but to blindly follow someone based on their technobabble bullshit (you might have to shim that dude) is somehow incredibly intelligent huh...... yeah....

Quote
I on my behalf was not asking you to explain yourself but what the f..k, in for a penny and all that.  Other than it not being plug and play and require shimming and carefull fitment just why exactly is it bloody stupid to install TRB's?  You never know as a bloody idiot I might learn something.

Cheers
Nobby


see, you can ask such a stupid question of an engineer and yet stand there and actually expect him to respect you and somehow answer you in words that you don't understand because you aren't interested in learning anything, and blah blah blah.

dude, I'm not here to make you feel good about yourself, I'm not here to give you the confidence to pick up that DIY magazine and fuck up your car, and I'm certainly not here to offer you free excuses about staying ignorant because no-one will teach you despite the fact that you demonstrate no problem with believing in a free lunch.

here are two of the dead children

and here are two more


and now I ask you, does this look like the face of a man (taken as he walked in to court) who thinks he has even one shred of blame?

38
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: TRB Crank HELP
« on: December 19, 2008, 08:23:55 PM »
yeah yeah, make it all about fawkes being a nasty potty mouth

don't even talk about the man killing his own children for doing something EXACTLY on a par with this thread, oh no...

not just stupid, stupid can be taught, you lot give assholes a bad name.

39
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: TRB Crank HELP
« on: December 19, 2008, 06:56:06 PM »
see, that's the trouble.

now we not only have one complete bloody idiot scratching his head wondering why his listeroid TRB crankshaft isn't "plug-and-play" in a genuine dursley lister, we have another complete bloody idiot accusing me of not being a man for not bothering to explain in excruciating details to the first complete bloody idiot exactly why he is a complete bloody idiot.

the link to the newspaper story about the other bloody idiot who just killed 3 out of his 7 children is of course, simply ignored, because in true complete bloody idiot fashion it is a well know truism that you can ignore the actual facts and concentrate on branding your opponent as an arrogant baby murdering nazi you can win the day.

life's too short

40
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: TRB Crank HELP
« on: December 19, 2008, 05:57:57 PM »
I see it as fitting an old drum brake car with disk brakes. With TRB mains if the oil pump fails the engine well keep going and never notice. IIRC this is going to be a working engine not for show.

Guy, I would appreciate it if you would please refrain from making personal attacks and insults on other posters.

Merry Christmas!

It isn't a personal attack to tell someone planning on doing something incredibly bloody stupid that the thing that they are planning on doing is so incredibly bloody stupid that it redefines the limits of what is incredibly bloody stupid.

it isn't a case of what this guy is trying to do being wrong, from one perspective..... , there simply is not a single perspective, and this takes real talent, from which the thing he is intent on doing is anything but wrong.

personal attacks???

trust me, I am being MANFULLY.....  restrained here...

I dunno, maybe the world would be a better place if we as a society were less afraid to tell people they were being fucking stupid before said people embarked upon a task which, quelle surprise, didn't actually turn out like it was supposed to according to the big idea at the beginning.

read thss

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article5360183.ece


41
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: TRB Crank HELP
« on: December 19, 2008, 05:13:18 PM »
May I ask why you are trying to convert a genuine Lister to trb's?
Stan

Judging by previous posts it appears to be a cost based decision.

cheers
Nobby

In the sense that fitting your car with disk brake rotors made out of chocolate is a "cost based decision" then yes, you are right.

In the sense that the OP is clearly too stupid to ever be allowed near anything even remotely mechanical then no, not really.

42
General Discussion / Re: New member Hello
« on: December 19, 2008, 11:30:14 AM »
...and in service with a Ducati diesel WD1-430  (a complete other story!)


Wow! I didn't realize Ducati ever made diesels. Being a bike mechanic, I need to ask if that is/was the same Ducati?


Also, welcome to the forum.   :)

The funny thing is I can remember a farmer saying to me in the seventies "wow, I didn't know ducati made motorbikes!"

ducati motorcycles was always a sideline to the main business of diesel agricultural stuff.

43
I wonder how much power it takes to get a 6/1 up to starting speed?

A human being makes a sixth of a horsepower, or 125 watts.

Sure, top athletes can hammer that for a while, but we're talking one arm and back here.

Cold starting performance is by far the simplest indication of overall engine condition.


44
Lister Based Generators / Re: mounts
« on: December 16, 2008, 03:39:11 PM »
Then you have 8 motorcycles too many.

45
Generators / Re: Regulated output generator
« on: November 19, 2008, 12:19:33 AM »

I am not sure what exactly the 13/87 figure tells you but if your controller sets the rack to the correct position the moment the load changes (not based on rpm but based on current draw),
Jens

You see, it is this sort of utterly moronic statement that makes engineers ignore you.

The moment the load, eg AC elecrical load on the gen head, changes.

Not based on RPM

But based on AC current draw (cos voltage is taken care of by the field)

So Jens, by attaching your PID to an indian listeroid + chinese head you get a free energy device, one of the science fiction zero point energy machines, over unity in action.

Must be, to be able to increase current draw without actually converting any rotational energy into electricity, and you can't be doing that because you are going to respond to current draw, not to rpm change, because responding to current draw is, according to you, faster.


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