Here in the UK we have what I like to call "gentlemen" static engine owners, it's a hobby, these buggers will spend HOURS painting their motors just so, and preparing them just so, so that they can run at 2% load for a few hours a year at rallies.

Back in the day when I was a working marine engineer (before the bottom dropped out of it and PR bunnies could earn 5x our salary) one of the real quality engines you could work on was a big Cat (ever tried to centre pop a cat valve to identify it?) and the only real bugbear was the injection pump requiring a pressurised feed to work, but one of the joys was a lube oil analysis before you put a spanner to it.....

Cat, in their wisdom, "doped" all the bearings individually, so you could do an oil analysis and not only tell how much the bearings were wearing, but whether one of them was wearing badly and if so which one, by the proportions of "dope" in the oil analysis.

We may be running "cheap" listers or listeroids, but "expensive" oil analysis can tell you a shit load, save you a fortune, and in real terms not cost any more than a service and paint job.

The following text is copied / pasted from an oil analyst documentation.

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Oil analysis can go far beyond simply telling you the condition of the lubricant itself. Advanced oil analysis laboratory techniques are being used to monitor the condition of the equipment. By utilizing these advanced techniques, equipment reliability increases and unexpected failures and down time can be minimized.

There are many types of abnormal wear that can exist inside a piece of machinery.  Although there are many different types of wear, there are only a few primary sources of the wear.  Problems related to the oil itself may contribute to wear, in cases where the lubricant has degraded or become contaminated. The machine condition can also contribute to the generation of wear, if a component is misaligned or improperly balanced.  Improper use of the equipment such as overload or accelerated heating conditions can also generate wear.

Below are some examples of the different types of wear that can occur.

Ø      Abrasive Wear is the results of hard particles coming in contact with internal components.  Such particles include dirt and a variety of wear metals.  Introducing a filtration process can reduce abrasive wear.  It is also important to ensure vents, breathers, and seals are working properly.

Ø      Adhesive Wear is when two metal surfaces come in contact allowing particles to break away from the components. Insufficient lubrication or lubricant contamination normally causes this.  Ensuring the proper viscosity grade lubricant is used can reduce adhesive wear.  Reducing contamination in the oil will also help eliminate adhesive wear.

Ø      Cavitation occurs when entrained air or gas bubbles collapse.  When the collapse occurs against the surface of internal components, cracks and pits can be formed.  Controlling foaming characteristics of oil with an anti-foam additive can help reduce cavitation.

Ø      Corrosive Wear is caused by a chemical reaction that actually removes material from a component surface.  Corrosion can be a direct result of acidic oxidation.  A random electrical current can also cause corrosion.  Electrical current corrosion results in welding and pitting of the wear surface. The presence of water or combustion products can promote corrosive wear.

Ø      Cutting Wear can be caused when an abrasive particle has imbedded itself in a soft surface.  Equipment imbalance or misalignment can contribute to cutting wear. Proper filtration and equipment maintenance is imperative to reducing cutting wear.

Ø      Fatigue Wear results when cracks develop in the component surface allowing the generation and removal of particles.  Leading causes of fatigue wear include insufficient lubrication, lubricant contamination, and component fatigue.

Ø      Sliding Wear is caused by equipment stress. Subjecting equipment to excessive speeds or loads can result in sliding wear. The excess heat in an overload situation weakens the lubricant and can result in metal-to-metal contact.  When a moving part comes in contact with a stationary part sliding wear becomes an issue.

By providing proper lubrication, filtration, and equipment maintenance, much of the wear that occurs inside of the equipment can be reduced.  By implementing predictive maintenance practices such as vibration, infrared, thermography, and oil analysis, you can identify potential problems. By monitoring the equipment’s condition with oil analysis, you can identify different types of wear and take proper corrective action before a failure occurs. In fact, there are many cases where oil analysis will identify problems with rotating equipment prior to even vibration analysis detecting it.

When implementing an oil analysis condition-monitoring program, it is important to select proper tests that will identify abnormal wear particles in the oil.  When components inside the equipment wear, debris is generated.  By identifying the wear debris present, you can establish the source of the problem.

Below are some examples of different laboratory tests that can help identify wear. 

Spectrometric Analysis is the technology that is most commonly used for trending the concentrations of wear metals.  The main focus of this technology is to trend the accumulation of small wear metals, elemental constituents of additives, and identification of possible introduction of contaminants.  The results are typically reported in parts per million (PPM).  It is important to remember that this technology only monitors the smaller particles present in the oil.  Any large wear metal particles present will not be detected or reported.

Particle Counting will track all ranges of particles that are found within the sample.  However, particle counting will not differentiate the composition of materials present.  The main focus of this technology is to identify the number of particles present in the sample.  The results are typically reported in certain size ranges per milliliter or per 100 milliliters of sample.

Direct Reading Ferrography monitors and trends the relative concentration of ferrous wear particles and determines a ratio of large to small ferrous particles to provide insight into the wear rate of the lubricated component. This method can be used as a tracking and trending tool, especially in systems that generate a high rate of particles.

Analytical Ferrography is a technology that utilizes microscopic analysis to identify the composition of the material present.  This technology will differentiate the type of material contained within the sample and determine the wearing component from which it was generated.  This test method is used to determine characteristics of a machine by evaluating the particle type, size, concentration, distribution, and morphology.  This will assist in determining the source and resolution of the problem.

It is important to remember that each laboratory test has limitations.  It is essential that you select a well-balanced test package that will correctly identify potential problems within your equipment. Many of the laboratory tests actually compliment each other.

The purpose of an oil analysis program should not be to merely check the lubricant's condition. The real maintenance dollars saved by utilizing oil analysis are going to be when equipment problems are detected. 

Below are some examples of wear metals and their component origins.

Wear Metal - Possible Origin

Aluminum - Bearings, Blocks, Blowers, Bushings, Clutches, Pistons, Pumps, Rotors, Washers

Chromium - Bearings, Pumps, Rings, Rods

Copper - Bearings, Bushings, Clutches, Pistons, Pumps, Washers

Iron - Bearings, Blocks, Crankshafts, Cylinders, Discs, Gears, Pistons, Pumps, Shafts

Lead - Bearings

Nickel - Bearings, Shafts, Valves

Silver - Bearings, Bushings, Solder

Tin - Bearings, Bushings, Pistons

Break-In Wear, Normal Wear, and Abnormal Wear are the three phases of wear that exist in equipment. 

Break-In Wear occurs during the start-up stages of a new component.  This phase typically generates significant wear metal debris that will be removed during the first couple of oil changes. 

Normal Wear occurs after the Break-In Wear stage.  During this stage the component becomes more stabilized.  Wear metals will increase with equipment usage and decrease when makeup oil is added or oil changes occur. 

Abnormal Wear occurs as a result of some form of lubricant, machinery, or maintenance problem.  During this stage the wear metals increase significantly.

By utilizing oil analysis on a routine basis, a base line for each piece of equipment can be established.  As the oil analysis data deviates from the established base line, abnormal wear modes can be identified.  Once abnormal wear modes are identified corrective action can be planned.

Implementation of an oil analysis program with analyses consistent with the goals of the program will significantly reduce maintenance costs and improve plant reliability and safety.  Lubricant analysis for the purpose of machinery conditioning monitoring is at its best with a significant amount of historical data.  It is important to establish a base line for each piece of equipment.  Certain analytical results may change with lube oxidation and degradation due to normal use, the major changes occur due to contamination from environmental factors and machinery wear debris. 

The analytical costs of a properly implemented program should be covered by the extension of the lubricant change interval.  Increased reliability, availability, and the prevention of unanticipated failures and downtime are added benefits.

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Some of you may be thinking " ah, but it is an old and cheap lister(oid) that will run on strained cabbage juice, if ever there was a motor that did not need this kind of money spending on it, it is a lister(oid)"

To which my answer is, you are running a motor with a design life of decades, not a disposable item, if ever there was a motor that DOES deserve oil analysis, it is a lister(oid) as you will be keeping and using it long enough that ALL the long term aspects of maintenance will pay dividends.

Caveat, those of you who had the crap frightened out of you when someone stuck a magnet in the old oil (I've been known to do this to new engines that were for sale as part of a vehicle, the newer the better, scares the hell out of the vendor and gets you a hefty discount) from your what you thought was a good engine, and then you saw all the stuff stuck to the magnet, will need to do some research into preventative maintenance and expected wear patterns.

HTH etc

You need to figure in the following costs, is it worth it.

A semi complete engine to a complete engine and gen head = renting a trailer, 35 UK pounds a day, and mileage, fuel is expensive here, and a small allowance for wear and tear, so you're looking at about 100 pounds or 150 bucks to go and collect your lister and bring it "here"

if it is parts, such as flywheels etc and can be securely put on a pallette by the vendor costs are lower, maybe 50 pounds per pallette to get it "here" by commercial tucking

OK, so now it is "here"

it needs packing for shipping, doing it properly means a steel base fork lift ready, and an angle iron frame with plywood panels, this is going to cost 200 pounds or 300 bucks in materials, it is still sat "here"

if it is a smaller item such as parts of flywheels and can be rigidly attached to a strong wooden pallette and then saran wrapped then this is less, maybe 50 pounds or 75 bucks

to get it from "here" to "there" you need a shipper, you can arrange that you end or you can ask me to give you a couple of websites for local companies here, they can do all the paperwork and advise on collection from "here" and of course what shipping and import duty is

those of you with USAF connections will be best getting it sent from "here" to a US airbase.... lots of angles here if you play it right....

"here" is Exeter in the south west of the UK, we have a local airport if you are going air freight, nearest shipping ports will be southampton, bristol, or liverpool, if going by sea, got to get there by truck though

UK > USA sea freight works out about 200 pounds or 300 bucks for the first 4 cubic feet, and about 60 pounds or 90 bucks for every 4 cubic feet after that, this is known as "groupage" and works out far more expensive than by the 20 foot container, which could be as low as 1000 pounds or 1500 bucks.........

bottom line here is it is not a cheap option, you won't beat listeroid prices, but if you insist on a genuine item and are prepared to pay the premium it can work out OK, economic viability only comes about if a group of you get together with an ebay shopping list and ship when the list is complete in one 20 foot container

cheers

http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/Lister/gallery/index.php?

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I see people talking about horsepower and kwh out of their gen heads, and wondered, so a "power" lesson.
(apologies in advance for the simplifications and errors induced by them to those in the know)


torque(ft/lbs) = ( 5252 x horsepower ) / rpm***

so, Lister CS 6/1 produces 6 bhp at 650 RPM, how much torque?

(5252 x 6)
---------------    =   48.48 ft/lbs
    650

"My mate says his car does the standing quarter mile in ten seconds, but I reckon it's all torque."

change the 650 to 1000 ROM and 6 to 10 BHP and you get 52.52 ft/lbs

10 (bhp) / 6 (bhp) = 1.6 recurring, so a 1.6 times increase in BHP

52.52 / 48.48 = 1.083 recurring, so a 1.083 times increase in torque

Torque and BHP are not in a linear relationship.

746 watts, or 0.746 kW = 1 BHP

so you can say the 6 BHP Lister CS 6/1 generates 4.476 kW

gears, whether hypoid, straight, chain and sprocket or belt and pulley, affect these numbers linearly.

A 2:1 gearbox halves BHP and doubles Torque, a 3:1 thirds and trebles, a 1:2 doubles and halves

if you are running a 1800 rpm 2 pole generator to get 60 Hz AC, and your motor does 650 then you need a 1:2.77 gear up, so (assuming zero losses) your 6 BHP / 49 ft/lbs @ 650 RPM becomes 16.62 BHP / 17.69 ft/lbs @ 1800 rpm

Wanna know why your lights flicker? cos your hitting a low (eg near parity with BHP) torque motor with a heavy drain every half revolution of the gen head....

ever wondered why the genuine 6/1 start-o-matic had nigh on 600 lbs of flywheel? there's your answer.

If you could use a 4 pole gen head you'd only need to gear up a little, to 900 rpm, torque would exceed bhp and you'd get a LOT less flicker

if you could use a 8 pole gen head you'd gear DOWN to 450, and be hard put to see flciker even on a scope

*** incidentally this means BHP = Torque in ft/lbs at 5252 RPM on every motor ever built.

Please please please do not think I am trying to piss on anyone's parade here, especially those supplying listeroids as a commercial venture, they are limited to what they can get, and few of them have probably had the opportunity to see how lister did it.

Lister kept the RPM low, partly because it gave a far wider fuel tolerance, but mainly because torque is all that matters, and nigh on 50 ft/lbs at 650 rpm (below tickover for more modern engines) is no mean feat... ignore the 6 bhp

BHP is Brake HorsePower, it is NOT "work", torque is "work"

spinning a generator against a load takes work, you always get more ultimate power out of a motor if you do so at crank rpm or less than if you gear up.

Lister went into the generator business with the start-o-matic, we have 50 hz, and 2 pole gen heads are cheaper than 4 pole, so that means 50 cycles x 60 seconds in a minute = 3000, divided by 2 poles for 1500 RPM

Lister knew this meant at 2.3:1 gear up, so 2.3 x BHP to 13.8 and 49 / 2.3  to 21.3 ft/lb, Lister knew this reduced the BHP to Torque ratio from 1:8 (approx) to 1:1.6 (approx) and lister knew this meant a hit every 0.5 gen head RPM, so they doubled the flywheel mass, which is a "capacitor for momentum" in many ways.

If you have never had access to a genuine start-o-matic, you won't know this, so you learn by doing, and there's threads here about flickering and getting custom made heavier flywheels....

If you've got the crank length, you can fit double flywheels, matey at utterpower might have enough kit lying around to try this, AFTER replacing the stock roller bearings with premium ones etc, and report back on whether my "argument" that lister knew what they were doing, so their numbers should be used as a starting point, holds water.

Question for the admins, will the gallery section, as it is configured now, accept videos?

I may have something very interesting to show you if it does, an experiment you can repeat with YOUR engines...

So, remember, if you know any two (like V, I, R in a DC circuit) of BHP, Torque and RPM, you can work out the third, and BHP can be expressed in watts, and BHP is essentially a function of RPM.

So increasing your 6/1 design to 10/1 at 1000 RPM gives you a big boost in BHP, and therefore watts available, but a much smaller increase in torque, and therefore work available, and if there appears to be a contradiction in terms there we'll either get into the sort of discussion the other member did about power factors in AC generation or accurate metered tests of a 6/1 and 10/1 both working flat out for 24 hours while monitoring exhaust gases, oil temperatures, fuel consumptions and so on.

When lister made the CS 6/1 it was rated at 650 rpm and continuous duty, that meant continuous 100% duty if required.

A 10/1 is a "ricer" IMHO

Hope I haven't ruffled any feathers amongst 10/1 owners, there's room for some prefer blondes and some prefer redheads to co-exist, so just cos I don't like something doesn't mean anyone else has to have the same opinion.

cheers

Reason I'm asking is the new one is working ok etc but I plan on doing a complete nut and bolt strip and refurb to new, or better than new, and while I'm at it I may do some mods to the engine itself.

Disclaimer, not planning on doing this next week, will be a couple of months away at least.

So, question is, while I'm doing this there's nothing except the extra time to stop me producing detailed plans and measurements of the start-o-matic combined gen head and starter unit, and from there it's only a small step to making new ones.

Since reading these forums it's been dawning on me that practically everyone importing a listeroid is using it to generate AC power, and all you're really lacking is a proper clone of the start-o-matic gen head.

(if 2.5 Kw isn't enough once you have plans it's no biggie to make a 5 Kw etc job)

Would there be any GENUINE (as in the work will be used, not just read for interest) interest in this? and if so how much? and if so what specific things would you see yourselves wanting extra detail and pictures of? (as I'm not planning on going to the effort of producing CAD / CAM / CAE files for every single component)

cheers

OK, whether or not you believe we are at or just passed peak oil, or think it is 10 or 20 years away, there are some things we can agree on.

1/ Global demand is rising, chinese want more, india wants more, and SUV's want more.

2/ Oil takes millions of years to make, and all the big finds are found, so sooner or later peak oil will happen.

Thing is, oil will never actually run out, the rarer it gets the more expensive it gets, at some point soon it will pass beer in cost per cc, then later it will pass whiskey, then later perfume, and finally maybe even inkjet ink (vbg) but that's the way it will go, so it will never be a case of "I cannot buy any" but "I cannot afford to buy it and use it at this rate"

Next thing is "oil" is not a thing, it is a vast range of grades and products, the more refined and higher quality ones will go first, lower quality, thicker, heavier will follow later.

Next thing is you don't need to run out, you don't even need to run short, all you need is to reach an economic tipping point.

For example, I have two cars, both are 20 odd year old Renault 19 non turbo 1900cc diesels, both were bought on e-bay for about 200 Uk pounds, both return 50+ mp(imperial)g

that blows away a prius, even if I could buy a prius for 200 Uk pounds

I know US diesel (and this site is after all mainly continental US after all) has a different sulphur content than european diesel, and that and other reasons like the historically cheap and historically low state / federal fuel tax duty means petrol is king.

Now, you may whine today (and incite the wrath of millions of jealous europeans) about current gas(oline) prices, but the fact is SUV's that make the ford fairlane 500 look economical still sell very well indeed.

So how about if we get a repeat of 1973, there is no genuine shortage of fuel, in that anyone who wants or needs to can fill up the tank, but the price per gallon just doubled?

Effectively the SUPPLY of "oil" is just as large as it was "last week" before the price hike, practically you and everyone you know will be making CA$H + pink slip swap offers to anyone with a 40/50 mpg euro style compact diesel

This is a "tipping point"

You don't care that you have gone from petrol / gasoline fuel to diesel fuel, both cost about the same per gallon, you only care because one vehicle does 7 mpg and one does 7 that, or 49 mpg.

All of a sudden everyone wants something that burns a lot less, we don't care what it burns because we count what it burns in dollars per mile, dollars per hour, or dollars per kilowatt.

Lister CS diesels are hugely efficient, ten gallons of fuel is a LOT in the sense that your lister will run for days

Genuine lister CS will also quite happily run on any old muck, the stuff no one else wants and no one else is fighting over, so OUR fuel is relatively speaking compared to everyone else, cheaper to buy and easier to find.

Use your CS to charge your golf cart and you'll be driving when other people are car sharing.

This (as usual for me long and rambling before I get near the point) is for me the point about these engines, a point that many of you, perhaps because we aren't at that tipping point yet, haven't seen.

You do not want to be making them do 750 rpm, then 850, then 1000, and so on, that is costing you efficiency, you want them chugging along at the design original of 650, burining fuel as frugally as a scotsman gives away whisky.

The point, for me, is not "oh I can burn biodiesel which is half the price of regular diesel", but "I can burn each gallon of fuel FAR more efficiently than in anything else you care to shake a stick at, and I can burn practically any fuel you care to shake a stick at, and therefore I can afford to use this engine far more than any other kind of engine, and thereofre I can get far more useful work done than any other method"

I guess it's not about prolonging the ability to live my life pretty much as I do today while ignoring efficiency, because I can beat the other guy in fuel cost per litre, but more about working smarter and more efficiently instead of harder just to stand still.

When I was on the boats we had customers with 50 foot boats who would tell me they NEEDED a 25 kilowatt generator, so they could run the water system, radar, lights, watermaker, air con, electric cooker and electric kettle and hifi, and still have enough for the wife to run her hair dryer.... madness

My 5/1 CS SOM is "only" 2.5 kilowatts, but if I use it EFFICIENTLY that is loads of power (for those of you who will moan about the A/C, I grew up in the tropics, ceiling fans use bugger all and are for my money more healthy than a/c, and kept us plenty cool too, save one small phase change unit to cool the beer) 15 watt energy saving flourescent bults instead of 100 watt filament bulbs, more insulation instead of more heating, DC battery banks and inverters to handle peak loads instead of an over specced generator that is mostly glazing its bores.

Not trying to start a flame way here, just genuinely interested if mine is the minority viewpoint on this or if I'm preaching to the choir.

cheers