It's bollocks, it's bollocks because everyone is comparing ripe apples to tinned pears and oranges squeezed for juice.

Some have said Direct Injection is 15% more efficient that Indirect Injection.

Yes, it can be, and it can be because of heat losses through the indirect injection pre-combustion chamber.

Does this "can be" apply to a lister(oid)? This is the question no-one is asking.

I have a original Lister CS 6/1, *extra* heat losses through the indirect injection chamber are negligible, because there is no water cooling anywhere near it, there is water not too far away, but not circulating, instead running a heat pipe condensation cycle.

I have an original CS 6/1, you can run em up to 50% load with the CS valve "in" and on high compression, that's 19:1.

I have an original CS 6/1, that means "Listard" cracked chrome plated bore, that traps more heat than iron

I have an original CS 6/1, that means an iron piston, that traps more heat than an alloy one.

YOU, depending on who you are, may have a listeroid, and a direct injection one at that.

For starters, at 650 rpm the advantages of direct injection don't come in to play, historically DI was for "big" engines, and IDI was for "small" engines, end of story, but, we can ignore that for now.

So, you think your DI listeroid will be more fuel efficient than my  IDI Lister?

Well, what is your cylinder head water jacket design like, you can't just assume it lets your head take less heat than mine.

What's your compression ratio? if it's 17:1 and fixed then right away you are losing a LOT of ground to me... matey posted a link to two indian engines, one DI, one IDI, otherwise very very similar, except, the DI one had a lot less torque, a lot...

What's your cylinder coating? none? then there is an as yet unquantified difference here too.

What;s your piston? aluminium? Well that absorbs more heat and more free electrons than a cast one, so you just lost out again.

How about losses to bearings? I've never timed it but if I had to guess I'd say a minimum of 45 seconds for mine to run down to standstill on decompress, possibly nearer a minute.

How about losses to vibration? that takes energy too.

================================

This is why I have problems with blanket statements like "DI is more fuel efficient"

Thermal efficiency is an equation, on the one side you have one number X, the amount of energy locked up in the fuel, on the other side you have to add up every last thing, INDIVIDUALLY, until it totals X, sticking an alternator on it isn't measuring anything to do with the engine, it's not good enough.

My last HD was a 1975 AMF FXE 74" shovel 4 speed kicker, as many of you know, AMF had a reputation, deserved or not, for being the worst quality harleys ever built, but apart from the interchageability of parts from the knuck onwards, that was the last bike I owned that I could get on in the Uk having given it a routine service, and set off across europe on a multi thousand mile journey taking in many countries, climates and fuels, and never pay a single thought to getting stranded.

That was because by and large they were built to eat miles.

Nowadays they are built to impress the ricers, and they seem to break down for a passtime and are nearly as unreliable as the new BMW bikes, and that's saying something.

Lister CS 6/1 was the same, it was, and still is, absolutely superb AT THE JOB IT WAS DESIGNED TO DO.

I see horror stories about the quality of listeroids, and I see a lot of what appear to me to be nothing more than cost saving excercises such as TBM mains, no CS valve, etc etc, however, that is still nothing that can't be fixed, treat it as a kit in the true sense of the word, not a kit where you only have to chip the ECU computer to cut a second off your standing quarter.

What I really really really do not get is people thinking they can reinvent the wheel, and do it better, and basing it on not even owning a listeroid, or owning one and not first doing the kit thing and making it a lister.

Folks, if you can't take a listeroid and turn it into a near as dammit lister, then I am sorry to be the one to tell you, but you ain't going to cut it in the technological self sufficiency race until you acquire yourself a lot of new skills, or rather, a lot of old skills.

Modernising a lister is EXACTLY like chucking a blown 454 into an proper original hot rot, you have to literally change everything else too. Think henry ford envisioned this?


Cos unless you can build a T bucket of that quality, you can't rebuild a listeroid to lister new spec and precision, so open your wallet and pay someone who can.

Next thing is, if you CAN build a T bucket to the spec, SHOULD you, or would you be better doing THIS



Because the original car will work on the unmetalled roads it was designed and built for, but the rod will die a quick death.

So, if you want a technologically advanced engine that would fit in on the starship enterprise, don't buy a listeroid.

BUT

If you want a technologically evolved and proven engine that will work day in and day out for decades, buy a lister or listeroid and make it a lister

If you are SERIOUS about this shit your 6/1 is going to burn 3 ton of fuel per year, so over the next ten years (and a ten year plan is good enough for anyone) that's 30 tons of fuel.

Looking at the web I see US diesel runs about 3 bucks a gallon, so off the top of my head that works out about 27,000 bucks worth of fuel if you buy it all today and bunker it, or if the price never goes up, haha...

So on the one hand you're looking at 27 thousand bucks worth of fuel, and a 500 buck engine (plus shipping if you like), which you seem to think with slave labour wages is gonna get you something good enough all you need to do is adjust the tappets.... not credible.

I said elsewhere more than once, I thought about this as a busines venture, and I'd have had to charge 10k uk pounds each for a CHP unit, 8000 cost, which is  US$14,500 ish

I know some things are cheaper in the states, but if you are building your listeroid and generator and hot water calorifier for less than ten thousand bucks, you aren't building the best motor you can out of your lister "kit"

 look at this

I'll lay money that's now in a lot better condition than my 50+ year old tappets

do that to every last component and dimension, we have had this discussion before, it's called blueprinting, and it means making everything within factory tolerances.

blueprint a listeroid and it will be as near as dammit as good as a lister, just make sure you use the lister blueprint for your listeroid.

cheers

The background to my thinking is on my blog, which is http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/blog/archives/11-Sorting-the-Men-from-the-Boys..html and no this is not some lame self promotion of my blog (it's on the same domain as all my lister files anyway) but it saves me typing the background twice.

My suggestion is that we, as a group, admins especially and those who pay for this server in particular) take note of something.

That something is how outsiders get treated and how their percieve us.

Get it right and you have a thriving community, get it wrong and we disappear ever further up our own asses.

To that end I have a suggestion, that we mandate what we are all about right now, and I personally would not feel that what we are about is listers, or listeroids, or co-gen, or any other restrictive and exclusive terminology.

I suggest we are about the following.

All applications of Slow speed stationary engines of 750 RPM or less

these picture do not do it justice, BEAUTIFUL brass slip ring lubracted bearings, it is bloody gorgeous....

watch out, BIG pictures

Gonna put this here, this is info from 1924, but it still holds true


Hardening

Critical Temperatures. -- The "critical points" of carbon tool steel are the temperatures at which certain changes in the chemical composition of the steel take place, during both heating and cooling. Steel at normal temperatures has its carbon (which is the chief hardening element) in a certain form called pearlite carbon, and if the steel is heated to a certain temperature, a change occurs and the pearlite becomes martensite or hardening carbon. If the steel is allowed to cool slowly, the hardening carbon changes back to pearlite. The points at which these changes occur are the decalescence and recalescence or critical points, and the effect of these molecular changes is as follows: When a piece of steel is heated to a certain point, it continues to absorb heat without appreciably rising in temperature, although its immediate surroundings may be hotter than the steel. This is the decalescence point. Similarly, steel cooling slowly from a high heat will, at a certain temperature, actually increase in temperature, although its surroundings may be colder. This takes place at the recalescence point. The recalescence point is lower than the decalescence point by anywhere from 85 to 215 degrees F., and the lower of these points does not manifest itself unless the higher one has first been fully passed. These critical points have a direct relation to the hardening of steel. Unless a temperature sufficient to reach the decalescence point is obtained, so that the pearlite carbon is changed into a hardening carbon, no hardening action can take place; and unless the steel is cooled suddenly before it reaches the recalescence point, thus preventing the changing back again from hardening to pearlite carbon, no hardening can take place. The critical points vary for different kinds of steel and must be determined by tests in each case. It is the variation in the critical points that makes it necessary to heat different steels to different temperatures when hardening.

Determining Hardening Temperatures. -- The temperatures at which decalescence occurs vary with the amount of carbon in the steel, and are also higher for high-speed steel than for ordinary crucible steel. The decalescence point of any steel marks the correct hardening temperature, and the steel should be removed from the source of heat as soon as is has been heated uniformly to this temperature. Heating the piece slightly above this point may be desirable, either to insure the structural change being complete throughout, or to allow for any slight loss of heat which may occur in transferring the work from the furnace to the quenching bath. When steel is heated above the temperature of decalescence, it is non-magnetic. If steel is heated to a bright red, it will have no attraction for a magnet or magnetic needle, but at about a "cherry-red," it regains its magnetic property. This phenomenon is sometimes taken advantage of for determining the correct hardening temperature, and the use of a magnet is to be recommended if a pyrometer is not available. The only point requiring judgment is the length of time the steel should remain in the furnace after it has become non-magnetic, as the time varies with the size of the piece. When applying the magnetic needle test, be sure that the needle is not being attracted by the tongs.

The correct hardening temperature for any carbon steel can be determined accurately by the use of a pyrometer. A form of apparatus often used for testing specimens of steel consists of a small electric furnace in which to heat the specimen, and a special thermo-couple pyrometer (see "Pyrometers") for indicating the range of temperatures through which the steel passes. The pyrometer consists of a thermo-couple, connecting leads and an indicating meter. The thermo-couple is of small wire so as to respond readily to any slight temperature variation. When testing a piece of steel with this apparatus, the temperature indicated by the meter rises uniformly until the decalescence point is reached. At this temperature, the indicating pointer of the meter remains stationary, the added heat being consumed by internal changes. When these changes are completed, the temperature again rises, the length of the elapsed period depending upon the speed of heating. The temperature at which this pause in the motion of the indicating pointer occurs should be carefully noted. To obtain the lower critical point, the temperature is first raised about 100 degrees F. above the decalescence point; the steel is then removed from the furnace and is allowed to cool. The decrease of temperature is immediately shown by the fall of the meter pointer, and, at a temperature somewhat below the decalescence point, there is again a noticeable lag in the movement of the pointer. The temperature at which the movement ceases entirely is the recalescence point. Immediately following, there may occur a slight rising movement of the pointer. During these intervals of temperature lag, both during heating and cooling, there may occur a small fluctuation in temperature; hence, a definite point in each of these intervals should be considered when a test is made, both critical temperatures being taken at the time the pointer first becomes stationary.

While it is possible to harden steel within a temperature range of about 200 degrees and obtain what might seem to be good results, the best results are obtained within a very narrow range of temperatures which are close to the decalescence point. The hardening temperature for both low tungsten and carbon steel can be located with accuracy, and the complete change from soft to hard occurs within a range of 10 degrees F. or less. After the temperature has been increased more than from 35 to 55 degrees F. above the hardening point, the hardness of steel is lessened by a higher temperature, provided the heating is sufficiently prolonged for the steel to be thoroughly heated.

Hardening or Quenching Baths. -- When steel heated above the critical point is plunged into a cooling bath, the rapidity with which the heat is absorbed by the bath affects the degree of hardness; hence, baths of various kinds are used for different classes of work. Clear cold water is commonly employed and brine is sometimes substituted to increase the degree of hardness. Sperm [whale oil] and lard oil baths are used for hardening springs, and raw linseed oil is excellent for cutters and other small tools. The effect of a bath upon steel depends upon its composition, temperature, and volume. The bath should be amply large to dissipate the heat rapidly, and the temperature should be kept about constant, so that successive pieces will be cooled at the same rate. Greater hardness is obtained from quenching in salt brine, and less in oil, than is obtained by the use of water. This is due to the difference in the heat-dissipating qualities of these substances. When water is used, it should be "soft," as unsatisfactory results will be obtained with "hard" water. If thin pieces are plunged into brine, there is danger of cracking, owing to the suddenness of the cooling.

The temperature of the hardening bath has a great deal to do with the hardness obtained. In certain experiments a bar quenched at 41 degrees F. showed a scleroscopic hardness of 101. A piece from the same bar quenched at 75 degrees F. had a hardness of 96, while, when the temperature of the water was raised to 124 degrees F., the bar was decidedly soft, having a hardness of only 83. The higher the temperature of the quenching water, the more nearly does its effect approach that of oil, and if boiling water is used for quenching, it will have an effect even more gentle than that of oil; in fact, it would leave the steel nearly soft. With oil baths, the temperature changes have little effect on the degree of hardness. Parts of irregular shape are sometimes quenched in a water bath that has been warmed somewhat to prevent sudden cooling and cracking. A water bath having one or two inches of oil on top is sometimes employed to advantage for tools made of high-carbon steel, as the oil through which the work first passes reduces the sudden action of the water.

Irregularly shaped parts should be immersed so that the heaviest of thickest section enters the bath first. After immersion, the part to be hardened should be agitated in the bath; the agitation reduces the tendency of the formation of a vapor coating on certain surfaces, and a more uniform rate of cooling is obtained. The work should never be dropped to the bottom of the bath until quite cool. High-speed steel is cooled for hardening either by means of an air blast or an oil bath. Both fresh and salt water are also used, although, as a general rule, water should not be used for high-speed steel. Various oils, such as cotton-seed, linseed, lard, whale oil, kerosene, etc., are also employed; many prefer cotton-seed oil. Linseed has the objection of becoming gummy, and lard oil has a tendency to become rancid. Whale oil or fish oil give satisfactory results, but have offensive odors, although this can be overcome by the addition of about three per cent of heavy "tempering" oil.

A quenching solution of a 3 per cent sulphuric acid and 97 per cent of water will make hardened carbon steel tools come out of the quenching bath bright and clean. This bath is sometimes used for drills and reamers which are not to be polished in the flutes after hardening. Another method of cleaning drills and similar tools after hardening is to pickle them in a solution of 1 part hydrochloric acid and 9 parts water. Still another method is to use a heating bath consisting of 2 parts barium chloride and 3 parts potassium chloride. This method is satisfactory for reamers and tools which are not to be polished in the flutes after hardening.

Oil Quenching Baths. -- Oil is used very extensively as a quenching medium as it gives the best proportion between hardness, toughness and warpage for standard steels. Special compounded oils of the soluble type are now used in many plants instead of such oils as fish oil, linseed oil, cotton-seed oil, etc. The soluble properties enable the oil to make an emulsion with water. A good quenching oil should possess a flash and fire point sufficiently high to be safe under the conditions used and 350 degrees F. should be about the minimum point. The specific heat of the oil regulates the hardness and toughness of the quenched steel, and the greater the specific heat, the harder the steel will be. Specific heats of quenching oils vary from 0.20 to 0.75, the specific heats of fish, animal, and vegetable oils usually being from 0.2 to 0.4, and of soluble and mineral oils, from 0.5 to 0.7. The oil should not contain water, gum when used, have a disagreeable odor or become rancid. A great many concerns use paraffin and mineral oils for quenching, while a few use crude fuel oils. The quantity of steel that can be quenched per gallon of oil depends on the fluidity of the oil, or its draining qualities. The so-called "refrigerating qualities" are really the capacity of the oil to remove the heat from the steel at a fast rate and then radiate its own heat to the atmosphere.

Tanks for Quenching Baths. -- The main point to be considered in a quenching bath is to keep it at a uniform temperature, so that each successive piece quenched will be subjected to the same heat. The next consideration is to keep the bath agitated, so that it will not be of different temperatures in different places; if thoroughly agitated and kept in motion, as is the case with the bath shown in Fig. 1, it is not even necessary to keep the pieces in motion in the bath, as steam will not be likely to form around the pieces quenched. Experience has proved that if a piece is held still in a thoroughly agitated bath, it will come out much straighter than if it has been moved around in an unagitated bath. This is an important consideration, especially when hardening long pieces. It is, besides, no easy matter to keep heavy and long pieces in motion unless it be done by mechanical means.

In Fig. 1 is shown a water or brine tank for quenching baths. Water is forced by a pump or other means through the supply tube into the intermediate space between the outer and inner tank. From the intermediate space it is forced into the inner tank through holes as indicated. The water returns to the storage tank by overflowing from the inner tank into the outer one and then through the overflow pipe as indicated. In Fig. 3 is shown another water or brine tank of a more common type. In this case the water or brine is pumped from the storage tank and continuously returned to it. If the storage tank contains a large volume of water, there is no need of a special means for cooling. Otherwise, arrangements must be made for cooling the water after it has passed through the tank. The bath is agitated by the force with which the water is pumped into it. The holes at A are drilled at an angle, so as to throw the water toward the center of the tank. In Fig. 2 is shown an oil quenching tank in which water is circulated in an outer surrounding tank for keeping the oil bath cool. Air is forced into the oil bath to keep it agitated. Fig. 6 shows a water and oil tank combined. The oil is kept cool by a coil passing through it in which water is circulated, which later passes into the water tank. The water and oil baths in this case are not agitated.

Hardening High-speed Steel. -- High-speed steel must be heated to a much higher temperature than carbon steel. A temperature of from 1400 degrees to 1600 degrees F. is sufficient for carbon steel; high-speed steel requires from 1800 degrees to 2200 degrees F. The usual method of hardening a high-speed steel tool, such as a turning or planing tool, is to heat the cutting end slowly to a temperature of about 1800 degrees F., and then more rapidly to about 2200 degrees F., or until the end is at a dazzling white heat and shows signs of melting down. The tool point is then cooled either by plunging it in a bath of oil (such as linseed or cotton-seed) or by placing the end in a blast of dry air. When an oil quenching bath is used, its temperature is varied from the room temperature to 350 degrees F., according to the steel used. The exact treatment varies for different steels and it is advisable to follow the directions given by the steel makers. High-speed steel parts that would be injured by a temperature high enough to melt the edges are hardened by heating slowly to as high a degree as possible and then cooling, as described. Formerly, the air blast was recommended by most steel makers, but oil is now extensively used. Care should be taken to quench the heated steel rapidly after removing from the source of heat. The barium-chloride bath has been used quite extensively for heating machine-finished, high-speed steel tools preparatory to hardening. The barium-chloride forms a thin coating on the steel, which is thus protected from oxidation while being transferred from the heating bath to the cooling bath. Tests have demonstrated, however, that barium-chloride baths have certain disadvantages for heating high-speed steel preparatory to hardening, because if the steel is heated to the required temperature, the surface of the tool is softened to some extent. These tests indicate that whenever this salt is used as a heating bath, the temperature should not be raised above 2050 degrees F. When about 0.010 inch is ground from the cutting edges of the tools, the influence of heating in barium chloride may be negligible. (See "Disadvantages of Barium-chloride Bath".)

Very satisfactory results in hardening high-speed steel tools, such as cutters, drills, etc., have been obtained by the following method: First pre-heat in an oven-type gas furnace to from 1300 degrees to 1500 degrees F.; then transfer the steel to another gas furnace having a temperature varying from about 2000 degrees to 2200 degrees F.; when the steel has attained this temperature, quench in a metallic salt bath having a temperature varying from 600 degrees to 1200 degrees F., depending on the kind of high-speed steel used. The piece to be hardened should be stirred vigorously in the bath until it has obtained the temperature of the bath; then it is cooled, preferably in the air, and requires no further tempering; or it may be put directly into the tempering oil, which should be at a temperature anywhere between 100 and 600 degrees F. The tempering bath is then gradually raised to the heat required for tempering. The salt bath used for quenching should be calcium chloride, sodium chloride and potassium ferro-cyanide, in proportions depending upon the required heat. Various kinds of steel require different temperatures for the metallic salt bath. After the temper of the tool has been drawn in the oil, the work is dipped in a tank of caustic soda, and then in hot water. This will remove all oil which might adhere to the tools, and is a method that applies to all tools after being tempered.

The Taylor-White Process. -- This process of hardening high-speed steel is, in brief, as follows: The first method, commonly known as the "high-heat treatment," is effected by heating the tool slowly to 1500 degrees F., and then rapidly from that temperature to just below the melting point, after which the tool is quickly cooled below 1550 degrees. At this point, the cooling is continued either fast or slow to the temperature of the air. It is important to avoid any increase of temperature during the cooling period. The second or "low-heat treatment" consists in re-heating a tool which has had the high-heat treatment to a temperature between 700 and 1240 degrees F., preferably in a lead bath, for a period of five minutes. The tool is then cooled to the temperature of the air either rapidly or slowly.

Heat-Treatment of Spring Steel. -- A number of experiments were made at the Baldwin Locomotive Works, to determine the effect of different heat-treatments on the transverse elastic limit and the modulus of elasticity of steels commonly used for locomotive springs. The points investigated were the effect of annealing, the comparative effect of quenching in water or oil, and the effect of re-heating the steel to various temperatures after complete cooling in water or oil. The steel used for the tests was basic open-hearth spring steel of the following composition: Carbon, 1.01 per cent; manganese, 0.38 per cent; phosphorus, 0.032 per cent; sulphur, 0.032 per cent; silicon, 0.13 per cent. This steel was found to reach its decalescence point at 1360 degrees F. Previous experiments had shown that, for annealing, it should be heated 40 degrees or 50 degrees above this temperature, and for hardening, from 50 degrees to 100 degrees above the point of decalescence. For the experiments, the following temperatures were used: For annealing, 1400 degrees F.; for quenching in oil, 1450 degrees F.; for quenching in water, 1425 degrees F. The results obtained are given in the table, "Results of Tests on Spring Steel".

ah well, picked up a nice wee compressor for the lister last week, now just sorted a nice dynamo

1936, shunt wound, up to 25 A @ up to 130 VDC @ 950 rpm, about  120 US bucks



ON THE OTHER HAND....

I went into a specialist trade plumbing supplier to day to buy two of these



bog standard 42 mm copper elbow

anyone want to guess how much (trade) for two off?

23 fucking pounds sterling, about 35 bucks US

that's a week's wages in poland, which is only a few hours drive away...

 What's a little debt between friends?
By Finlo Rohrer
BBC News Magazine

The UK is about to pay off the last of its World War II loans from the US. But it hasn't always been so fastidious.

On 31 December, the UK will make a payment of about $83m (£45.5m) to the US and so discharge the last of its loans from World War II from its transatlantic ally.

It is hard from a modern viewpoint to appreciate the astronomical costs and economic damage caused by this conflict. In 1945, Britain badly needed money to pay for reconstruction and also to import food for a nation worn down after years of rationing.

"In a nutshell, everything we got from America in World War II was free," says economic historian Professor Mark Harrison, of Warwick University.

"The loan was really to help Britain through the consequences of post-war adjustment, rather than the war itself. This position was different from World War I, where money was lent for the war effort itself."

The loan was part-driven by the Americans' termination of the Lend-Lease scheme. Under the programme, the US had effectively donated equipment for the war effort, but anything left over in Britain at the end of hostilities and still needed would have to be paid for.

But the price would please a bargain hunter - the US only wanted one-tenth of the production cost of the equipment and would lend the money to pay for it.

As a result, the UK took a loan for $586m (about £145m at 1945 exchange rates), and a further $3,750m line of credit (about £930m at 1945 exchange rates). The loan was to be paid off in 50 annual repayments starting in 1950, although there were six years when payment was deferred because of economic or political crises.

Generous terms

It's easy to cough and splutter at the thought of our closest ally suddenly demanding payment for equipment rather than sparing a billion or two as a gift.

But the terms of the loan were extremely generous, with a fixed interest rate of 2% making it considerably less terrifying than a typical mortgage.

Still there were British officials, like economist JM Keynes, who detected a note of churlishness in the general demeanour of the Americans after the war.

   Nobody pays off their student loan early, unless they are a nutter
Dr Tim Leunig
His biographer, Lord Skidelsky, says: "Keynes wanted either a gift to cover Britain's post-war balance of payments, or an interest-free loan. The most important condition was sterling being made convertible [to dollars]. Everyone simply changed their pounds for dollars. [Loans were] eaten up by a flight from sterling. They then had to suspend convertibility. The terms were impossible to fulfil."

Anne Moffat, the MP for East Lothian, asked the parliamentary question that revealed the end of the WWII loan after being pressed by an interested constituent. She is a little surprised that we are still paying the Americans off all these years later.

"It is certainly bad that no-one seems to have known about it. It seems to be a dark, well-kept secret."

Historic debts

Yet for Dr Tim Leunig, lecturer in economic history at the LSE, it's no surprise that the UK chose to keep this low-interest loan going rather than pay it off early.

"Nobody pays off their student loan early, unless they are a nutter. Even if you've got the money to pay it off early, you should just put it in a bank and pocket the interest."

And if it seems strange to the non-economist that WWII debts are still knocking around after 60 years, there are debts that predate the Napoleonic wars. Dr Leunig says the government is still paying out on these "consol" bonds, because it is better value for taxpayers to keep paying the 2.5% interest than to buy back the bonds.

   In a 1945 state department survey on the US public's attitudes to its wartime allies, Britain was one of the least trusted countries
Dr Patricia Clavin

And while the UK dutifully pays off its World War II debts, those from World War I remain resolutely unpaid. And are by no means trifling. In 1934, Britain owed the US $4.4bn of World War I debt (about £866m at 1934 exchange rates). Adjusted by the Retail Price Index, a typical measure of inflation, £866m would equate to £40bn now, and if adjusted by the growth of GDP, to about £225bn.

"We just sort of gave up around 1932 when the interwar economy was in turmoil, currencies were collapsing," says Prof Harrison.

Nor were we alone. In 1931, US President Herbert Hoover announced a one-year moratorium on war loan repayments from all nations so the international community could properly discuss what it was going to do.

British resentment

Many Britons felt that the US loans should be considered as part of its contribution to the World War I effort.

"The Americans lent Britain a lot. Britain resented making payments," says historian Dr Patricia Clavin, of Oxford University.

And although Britain was unable to pay its debts, it was also owed the whacking sum of £2.3bn.

   
OUTSTANDING WWI LOANS
Britain owed to US in 1934: £866m
Adjusted by RPI to 2006: £40bn
Other nations owed Britain: £2.3bn
Adjusted by RPI to 2006: £104bn

These loans remain in limbo. The UK Government's position is this: "Neither the debt owed to the United States by the UK nor the larger debts owed by other countries to the UK have been serviced since 1934, nor have they been written off."

So in a time when debt relief for Third World nations is recurrently in the news, the UK still has a slew of unresolved loans from a war that finished 88 years ago. HM Treasury's researchers descended into its archives and were unable to even establish which nations owe money. The bulk of the sum would probably have gone to allies such as nations of the Empire fighting alongside Britain, says Dr Clavin.

Nor is HM Treasury able to say why the UK never repaid its WWI debts - even though, at the time, many Americans took a dim view of repayments being suspended, for they had bought bonds which stood little chance of showing a return on their investment.

Thus despite fighting on the same side in WWII, an air of financial distrust remained after hostilities ended.

"In a 1945 state department survey on the US public's attitudes to its wartime allies, Britain was one of the least trusted countries," says Dr Clavin.

During the crisis years of the 1930s, only one nation continued to pay in full - Finland. Perhaps a conscious effort to foster a good reputation with an increasingly influential power, Finland's actions generated thousands of positive stories in the American media at the time. Nor has it been forgotten; the Finns celebrated this achievement in an exhibition last year.

But for the UK, a reputation for reliability has taken longer to restore.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/magazine/4757181.stm

Published: 2006/05/10 11:56:45 GMT

© BBC MMVI

Well the first thing you need of course is the radiator itself, as usual (for me) I sourced one on e-bay, a brand new old stock job with a cut out in the middle for a PTO, ten UK pounds.

When it comes to siting it, Lister used to put them on the injection pump side, that’s why the head has 4 off 3/8” UNC holes and a flat (or you could mount a fuel tank there), I looked at this myself, but it would mean re-locating the diesel fuel filter, and once fitted you are in effect concealing the injection equipment side of the engine, so, I chose to locate the radiator on the other side of the engine, which is bare of everything.

The Lister barrel has two 3/8” UNC holes, two on the pushrod side, two on the de-compressor side, located at the top of the casting. Lister used these for the lower brackets for their radiator mounts. Lister used the 4 bolts mentioned above on the side of the head to carry the upper bearing / shaft and fan, driven by belt from the flywheel.

I have chosen a larger than Lister radiator, by a factor of about 2x, and will fit an electric fan and run it from the Start-o-matic batteries, which are always charged when the set is running, with it controlled by a thermal switch, same as on a vehicle.

Primary concern was that no modifications should be made to the engine, so if required it could be out back to factory spec with no more than a spanner, and of course it has to be workmanlike, not denying access to anything else, and as quick and simple to strip and rebuilt as everything else on the Lister.

As you can see from the pictures, I used two pieces of 2” x ¼” flat bar, each 12” long for the horizontal straps across the 3/8” UNC bolts in the upper part of the barrel, attached to that are two vertical pieces of 1¼” x ¼” flat bar, drilled for the four 10mm bolts for the radiator, and one (so far) diagonal piece welded to the top of one of the 1¼” uprights and drilled the other end to use the upper stud on the water manifold on the head, this diagonal piece (no picture yet) stops any vibration, triangulation makes for rigidity. This is a work-in-progress so some more triangulation to come, but what is there has had a test start of the engine and is as solid as a rock.



Four 10mm bolts will remove the radiator, and four 3/8” UNC bolts (so far) will remove the radiator bracket, so a five minute job.

The radiator itself has a bleed valve at the bottom outside edge about 2/3rds of the way to the crankcase breather side of the engine, so all it needs now is the expansion tank mounting and the hoses purchasing and connecting up. As you can see from the picture, the hose layout is good for thermal siphon, and the high cross sectional area of the diesel truck radiator will also help this along. Being thermal siphon, no thermostat is required, flow is controlled by temperature.



The fuel tank will stay, I’ve got an original full size one, but for now the 2 gallon job will do as a “day tank” so I will mount that on the fuel filter side on a bracket off those four 3/8” UNC bolt holes on the head. Just have to make the brackets and alter the plumbing a little.

If you do this yourself, it is really important that everything is both STIFF enough, and STRONG enough, these engines vibrate, and vibration if it is allowed to cause any flexing will kill things like welds etc in fairly short order. The frame is see is easily strong enough for me to stand on, and when the triangulation is finished it will be absolutely rigid, able to carry orders of magnitude more weight than it will.

The bolts you can see are at present, because this is all test fit, standard 1½” long, either 10mm or 3/8” UNC as appropriate, with back nuts for the present, rather than being cut to the appropriate length, NEVER EVER bottom out bolts, you WILL crack the castings. And of course spring washers, not just flat ones of none.

The full set of today’s pictures are at the usual place, in full 1600 x 1200 resolution, in Lister gallery 04. Hopefully over the next week or so I will get the time to finish this mod off, then paint the brackets properly, after cleaning them up and rounding edges etc. The Radiator shroud will get a coat of paint too, sometime I have to strip and clean and repaint the entire Lister, and that means choosing a colour too, but the radiator core will of course stay matt black, the most efficient colour to dissipate heat.

I did consider inclining the radiator so thermal convection of the air would take place through the core, but I reckon in real life even the slightest breeze will be sufficient that the electric fans will not be needed. I’m considering two 12 VDC fans from a twin fan setup, and wiring them in series because the DC side of the Start-o-matic is 24 VDC. At the end of the day the radiator is (pretty much) vertical and in-line with the block because I thought it looked fine like that.



Total cost so far, one new old stock radiator, UK £10, some flat bar, UK £5 (only part of it used), some MiG wire off the reel, some MiG gas, a wee bit of primer, eight 3/8” UNC nuts bolts and washers and 2 dozen 10mm nuts bolts and washers UK£7, and some time, so maybe UK£30 – 35 all in when it’s done, and then I can run proper coolant with rust inhibitor and anti-freeze, no more danger ever again of frost damage to the block, no more shit clogging up the water passages, and a nice visual cue by way of the semi-clear header cum expansion tank as / when / if the coolant needs topping up.



Yes the welding is a bit "birdshit", but I had problems with the gas valve, and when I cleaned that the wind got up, but at the end of the day we got a good bond and that's all that counts at this test fit stage. I should also point out that although things look a bit on the piss, they aren't, it's the camera angles etc.

More to follow as and when.