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Messages - BruceM

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Listeroid Engines / Re: Lister Muffler Project
« on: April 03, 2021, 04:03:35 PM »
Nice work, Veggie, that seems to have enough expansion volume to do the job nicely,

For my neighbor's DES 8/1 converted to propane project, we used a "leach-field muffler" using 3 inch leach-field rock in a trench with 2" holed pipe inlet and 4 inch plastic drain pipe outlet and 4" vent cap above ground.   That completely eliminates exhaust noise. It also cleans the exhaust odors; I recommend it where exhaust fumes coming back to home or workspace might be problematic.  It can be a bargain if done at the same time the septic leach-field system is being installed.  We used about 40 foot of trench, which is more than enough.

Petteroids / Re: PETTER - PAZ1 - New project
« on: March 21, 2021, 04:50:31 PM »
That should do it, VP.  Well done.

Petteroids / Re: PETTER - PAZ1 - New project
« on: March 20, 2021, 03:27:52 PM »
Looking good, VP.  I enjoy following your projects!  Per your wish, I do note one issue:

The fore/aft forces on the legs have no bracing or diagonals so the legs might bend fore and aft from the engine. They are already braced well for outward splay by the lower brace.  Gusset plates on the legs where they attach to the center lifting beam might be one solution for this, leaving the center clear for the engine.

+1  Just look up the retail price of a Marathon generator head in that size and you'll see the asking price for the whole set is a bargain.  The waveform on a Marathon head is so (low THD) perfect it's typically described as "voluptuous" sine. 

As Gary noted, you'll kill a diesel engine if you have it running for hours without a significant load.  Sometimes that makes for a bad match to an application when an inverter generator or small LPG generator might be a better match.

Other Fuels / Re: Uk heating oul
« on: March 06, 2021, 05:09:10 PM »
Thanks for that great report, Gary.  I remember it now but needed the reminder!
Wish I had a biodiesel source in my area, that's clearly the hands down winner. (For my '85 300D.) No surprise, it's what Gary (DES) recommended.

General Discussion / Re: Welding from a Listeroid/ST generator rig
« on: March 03, 2021, 07:37:37 PM »
Thanks for piping in, Butch. I forgot the essential alignment of TDC and counterweight position.  Yikes, that's critical.

Martin, it looks like you've got a machine with no counterweight on the flywheels, which means you need it on the crankshaft.  Better send a picture from the big door so we can see (and learn).  Also- what's the outer diameter of your flywheel?

Maybe 38AC can suggest how to best tune your balance.  I can only guess that I'd apply his same method only getting the two flywheels first balanced to have zero counterweight.  If it was a hopper you'd have the option of adding weight opposite TDC to the flywheels, or if possible, adding it internally to the counterweight.

One guy here many years ago got a zero counterbalance engine-  none internally or externally.  A real Rajkot surprise. 

General Discussion / Re: Welding from a Listeroid/ST generator rig
« on: March 02, 2021, 09:44:04 PM »
38AC's balancing method in brief:

Take the flywheels off, make some sort of jig to suspend a length of 2" axle or smaller axle with 2" OD bearings in the flywheel.  I used wood, with some scrap angle iron for the load carrying edge for a 12" long piece of 2" rod. I leveled the angle iron pieces with paper and cardboard shims. The angles were screwed to the wood, one edge up.  38AC has a much nicer, welded steel jig- I don't recall details. 

 Set the wheel up on your jig and then add weight at 3 or 9 o'clock as needed to get the counterweight centered exactly at the bottom.  38AC had details on measuring and marking from the gib key slot to insure you know exactly where on the flywheel the top should be, which I've forgotten. You will realize why you need to do this when you see one or more of your flywheels resting way off angle from the key slot.  Measure the counterweight with a string and can weights suspended on the surface of the flywheel opposite the counterweight (63 and 9 o'clock).  Do the 2nd wheel, then add weight to the counterweight area rim of the lighter so it matches the heavier.  Now you have matching flywheels with a known counterbalance that is opposite the gib key.  My neighbor's DES 8/1 had about 43 oz of counterbalance weight, and we had to add about 8oz more (evenly split).

This removes all the "art" from the subsequent dynamic balancing.  Now you just add weight to a hopper until it stops jumping up and down and the head starts moving fore and aft ever so slightly.  Weight should be added equally to both wheels at the counterbalance or opposite (to subtract). 2 oz total increments is fine, double that if it's bad.

38AC mentioned that for fine tuning, a newly rebuilt engine will need a bit of running to loosen up a bit.
Note that for the 8/1 or SOM flywheels, the "counter weight" is by design and a lightening hole.

My memory is poor so I hope maybe 38AC will correct me!

General Discussion / Re: Welding from a Listeroid/ST generator rig
« on: February 28, 2021, 03:28:29 AM »
I do use an AVR on my ST-3 and so does my neighbor on his.  My neighbor uses one similar to the one you show, his purchased on ebay.  They last about 4 years so he keeps a spare on hand.  His ST-3 setup IS using the harmonic winding; in fact his CGG "brand" ST-3 requires it, the stock harmonic setup is grossly over-voltage. I use an AVR of my own design; a hand soldered prototype. I can flip a switch and revert to the stock harmonic regulation.  My St-3 had a very nasty "harmonic hump" so I use the mains for excitation of my homebrew AVR.  I also offered a schematic and PCB design for a simple AVR here many years ago.  A few members made them. The China AVR's are so cheap that even I recommend them.  As I said, you should stick to harmonic regulation for a welder as these cheap AVRs won't handle a low PF load like some welders well, and will regulate at way too low of an true RMS voltage.  I learned this the hard way, though it was not a welder.

I'm happy to share schematics, etc. with a forum member who needs them.  You can't buy parts for what you can buy the finished China product for these days.

Since you have an ST-7 and what is really an 8/1 already,  you have all the makings of a good welder generator.
Balance issues are easy.  I highly recommend 38AC's method.  I used it on my neighbor's 8/1 and will never go back to the Mr X wheel chalking method.  The latter works, but takes much more time.  38AC first corrects the counterbalance offset angles to match the key location, then adds weight to the lighter of the two wheel's counterbalance weight to make have identical on-axis counterbalance weight as measured by string can and weights..  Then you just add equal weight to each wheel either at or opposite the counterbalance.  Hoppers need more, fore and aft movement or sliders need less. 1 oz per each wheel increments work OK.  It's can be done with only a handful starts/stops.  My hat's off to 38AC for this simple, powerful method.  I used a short, leveled section of hot rolled angle iron on wood blocks and a 12" section of 2" OD axle from Amazon for doing the measuring and matching. Plus a can, string and lead shot.

I would rather not limit myself to 2300 watts continuous for welding if I already had an 8/1 and ST-7!
The faster rpm of the 8/1 does seem a bit "nervous" for a while but it grows on you.

Best Wishe

Generators / Re: 240 vs 220
« on: February 27, 2021, 01:05:39 AM »
+1 on comments by dieselgman and 32coupe.   Check your voltage under full load, preferably with a true RMS voltage meter as the ST waveform is sometimes more triangle than sine.  Cheap meters are just scaling the peak voltage of a true sine.

If the stock harmonic regulator of your ST head, with no dropping resistor, can't get over 220VAC, you might eventually consider using an AVR, using the line voltage input instead of the harmonic input.  The AVR units can only limit what you are using for excitation; your harmonic output is marginal.  They do work find using the mains as the excitation source to the AVR; it will limit it.  You must pick the right AVR for your output voltage, 120 or 230/240.  You can find them for cheap on Ebay. 

Check for aluminum rotor windings next time you check your brushes/commutator.

General Discussion / Re: Welding from a Listeroid/ST generator rig
« on: February 27, 2021, 12:38:04 AM »
The typical ST head THD is pretty high from waveform distortions (ratcheting from non-skewed rotor windings, harmonic hump from harmonic winding) will have no adverse affect on your welder.  All the new designs are switch mode power supplies, so the first thing they do is create bulk DC from the AC input.  The cheaper welders with bad power factor (direct rectification of the mains to bulk capacitors may do this in a manner that has lousy power factor.  That will affect an electronic regulator, if you use one on your ST-7, and it is a typical cheapy that doesn't do true RMS voltage regulation...causing it to regulate voltage too low.  I've experienced this situation on my ST-3 with electronic regulation.  On your stock harmonic winding, it will regulate fairly well with a rude, low PF load.  i switchover my ST-3 to the backup harmonic for this situation. 

The usual 10 Hz Listerflicker variation in voltage and frequency will normally be handled quite well by a decent electronic welder.

The big issue I see you having is that you will have to limit your welding current pretty seriously.  If it's a small MIG welder, with output at 24VDC at the machine, you should get 85-90 amps of welding current (allowing for losses), but you're at the limits of the 6/1 power (2300W generated power)  If you can live with that, you should be OK.  I have had a smaller amp MIG welder running on 230VAC, on my 6/1-ST-3 with harmonic regulation. It was fine for thinwall square tube welding.

For moderate current stick or other higher power welding, you don't have the power for 1/8 rods of 7018.  You could barely do 5/32 6013 rods. If your duty cycle was low enough, and you had SOM type heavy flywheels, that would probably help.  An 8/1 would be a better match for home/farm welding. 

PS I've got some heavy flywheels I'd sell at cost if you get serious about doing an 8/1 conversion with an aluminum piston and have the typical 6/1 spoke flywheels.  I don't think anyone thinks they should be spun higher than 650rpm. 

Best Wishes,

Lister Based Generators / Re: Lister generator variable resistors.
« on: February 08, 2021, 12:02:53 AM »
Digikey and Mouser do stock a wide range of power resistors, fixed and adjustable.  The both have decent parametric search.  You will need to know the desired resistance and watts.  You may be able to estimate wattage from the schematic and/or size of the stock resistor. Give a holler if you need help.

+1 with admiration for a first quality setup...including the Marathon head. 
One of most brilliant analog and digital circuit designers I ever met was a former Navy electronics technician. I learned a great deal from him.  I hope you find a good home for your Dad's Lister/Marathon generator setup, Schwaps.  It's a beauty.

Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Gov stuck, any easy suggestions?
« on: January 27, 2021, 04:16:21 PM »
Bravo, Hugh! Glad you were able to diagnose and fix it successfully.  Thanks for sharing your experience here.
Unusual to me that such a flaw would only show after so many hours.

I had governor sticking on occasion many years ago, but traced it down to terrible fit and finish of the sliding yoke piece that connects to the IP rack and the hole in the upper arm. I had to drill out and put in a bronze bushing in the arm, drilled to the fit the carefully smoothed pin.  The stock setup was loose, with the pin tilting in the arm and binding even after correcting the arm angle.

Engines / Re: Noisy CS 8/1
« on: January 09, 2021, 01:36:16 AM »
A most impressive analysis and outstanding explanation, 38AC. You are an excellent instructor and writer.  I learned a lot, thank you!  Thanks to silvertop too.

Engines / Re: Noisy CS 8/1
« on: January 01, 2021, 07:47:23 PM »
An interesting situation, silvertop.  You have covered all the obvious causes competently.  Unless 38AC pitches with an answer, I'd probably accept that there is a volume issue with the head and just add some gasket spacers under the cylinder to get the knock down to normal. If that works, it is self validating.

Flywheel to key play has occasionally be reported as a knock source; that's the only other thing I can recall that you didn't specifically cover already.

As 38AC has shared with us in the past, even Lister CS's have occasionally had  QC and consistency issues.

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