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Messages - duh

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1
Everything else / Re: Batteries, what type are we using out there?
« on: December 12, 2007, 02:48:08 AM »
Six fat Surrette 2volt cells (12 volt/1700ah when wired.)

http://www.diesel-bike.com/System/slide9.html

Been in service for about 5 years now, no problems. Will post when they finally fail.

-Duh
P.S. Took two hard lightning strikes this summer - I think the batteries took the bite out of the strike! The water in the toilet was bubbling after the most severe hit!!!
Takes pulse charging to a whole new level!!
 :o

2
Everything else / Re: So what does everybody use for inverters?
« on: December 12, 2007, 02:42:01 AM »
(From another discussion regarding inverter RFI/EMI generated noise)
********************************
Disclaimer:
The point of this test was to show differences between inverters and AM radio interference as suggested by another forum member.
I have no interest in promoting any one unit over another. In a real working environment it is noteworthy that only the Trace DR2412 projects interference over the phones and the audio portion of a VHS recording. - Duh

The following test was conducted with the radio being a very near exact distance from each inverter (approx. 18 inches).
The radio was in the AM mode on the lower end of the scale (somewhere near where NPR is here on FM - 89.5).

My own personal audio observations are:
The Trace Dr2412 and the PowerBright 1500 sounded the most destructive from the radio speakers.
The Magnum MS2812 was next and although no kitten, the Trace SW2512MC was the "quietest" out of the speakers.
Side note* The Magnum MS2812 was the leader with ceiling fan motor noise (totally silent - no hum).

To allow you to draw your own conclusions, links to the actual recorded sound files are listed below.

Of special interest is when the laptop was brought into range of the radio, it too provided similar sounding interference from the radio's speakers ..

For your listening pleasure, here are the sound recordings:
- Trace Dr2412 Modified Sinewave - http://diesel-bike.com/System/Inverters/DR2412_static.wav
- PowerBright 1500 Sinewave - http://diesel-bike.com/System/Inverters/PowerBright_static.wav
- Magnum MS2812 Sinewave - http://diesel-bike.com/System/Inverters/MS2812_static.wav
- Trace SW2512MC Sinewave - http://diesel-bike.com/System/Inverters/Trace2512MC_static.wav

- Duh

3
Everything else / Re: So what does everybody use for inverters?
« on: December 12, 2007, 02:32:19 AM »
(From a previous write up on inverters)
Disclaimer:
I am not pitching for any brand name anything. The purpose of this thread is to share some info regarding the inverters I currently have within my off-grid system. -Duh

There are 5 inverters in the system. Each one can be engaged with some simple switching. In no particular order are the inverters (all are 12 volt input):
-1 PowerBright 1500 watt (pure sine wave)
-1 Magnum Energy MS2812 (pure sine wave)
-1 Trace SW2512MC (pure sine wave)
-2 Trace DR Series 2412 (modified sine wave)

The drill down:
-1 PowerBright 1500 watt pure sine wave:
--Inexpensive, lightweight, takes care of small jobs which is about 95% of electrical needs. It is the noisiest of the lot, mainly because the two cooling fans run alot even with small loads. Small power fluctuation (116-120v) and hold upwards of 62hz. Problems - none. Time in service - 3.4 years.

-1 Magnum Energy MS2812:
--Cost more than the PowerBright but not quite as much as the units below. Heavy, but managable weight for mounting. Will take care of any job I've given it. Cooling fan seldom comes on. Nice soft touch display. Quietest of all 5, nearly impossible to hear it running. Holds a very tight 120 volts at 60 - 60.5 hz. Problems: 2, Each time it was fully covered by the manufacturer including shipping both ways. Time in Service: 3.4 years.

-1 Trace SW2512MC:
--Cost the most of any in my system. It's an absolute pig - impressive to look at but incredibly heavy for size - dead weight. Will handle anything I can give it. Not as quiet as the Magnum - it buzzes like the DR Series. I've yet to hear the cooling fan run, or to feel any heat from it. Holds a very tight 120 volts at 61 hz. Too bad it doesn't have the display of the Magnum. Problems - none. Time in service: 1.4 years.

-2 Trace DR Series 2412
--2nd most expensive inverters in the system because they are as a pair. They are heavy and likely indestructible for the most part. These have survived two lightning strikes which actually raised cane with the flip-flops and kicked some lights (resetting inverters made everything normal in seconds.) They are noisy - they buzz and can be heard on the phone even with a Radioshack in-line noise supressor. Compact flourescents, motors, etc, all run hotter when using these. Although modified sinewave, they hold a tight 120 volts at 60hz. A couple of items will not accept their output, most notably is a back-up computerized heater (goes right into error). These make excellent backup inverters should all else fail. Problems - nothing a reset didn't cure. Time in service - 4.4 years.

There were three other inverters that I didn't include in the list simply because they were garbage and didn't survive. It gave me great pleasure to take to the dump these:
-1 Coleman portable 400 watt modified sinewave inverter.
-1 Samlex 1000 watt pure sinewave inverter.
-1 Revived 80 lb Rescue Squad 1500 watt inverter that put out a waveform that only an incandescent bulb would like.

-Duh
P.S. for reference, click on the links below for pictures (750k, can be enlarged for clarity):
http://diesel-bike.com/System/Inverters/Powerbright.JPG
http://diesel-bike.com/System/Inverters/Magnum_MS2812.JPG
http://diesel-bike.com/System/Inverters/Trace2512MC.JPG
http://diesel-bike.com/System/Inverters/DR2412_panel.JPG

4
Generators / Re: PM heads?
« on: February 05, 2007, 03:30:43 PM »
Quote
Posted on: Today at 06:52:53 AMPosted by: fattywagonman 
Insert Quote
Hi Guys,

Just jumping into the discussion with both feet...

I use a small PMG available from these guys
 

Hi fattywagonman,
These are decent units for their size but one should keep tabs on the temp of that pma when DC charging. I had one of these (same folks) with the supplied cooling fan and literally cooked it when charging my battery bank (it held up about 8 minutes longer than the best automotive alternator the auto parts could give me - they ate several too!)  I'll dig it out when I get some time and take some pics of the damage. The pma was outdoors when the temp was about 8 degrees abov zero so it had the advantage of cold air but still met a painful, and stinky death. The alternator/welder I settled on barely gets warm to the touch and that's with an indoor temp of 65 or higher - what a difference!

duh

5
Listeroid Engines / Re: A few questions
« on: January 28, 2007, 04:58:00 PM »
tdale4,
What you are going to do is basically where I am right now. The big difference is your house will be new; mine is old an has had it. At any rate, I run dual AC units in the summer when my dog tells me it's too hot. There are several items not shown that are currently being tested or modified for the this winter and will update those in the late spring (mppt, leds, listeroid etc..)

Right, wrong, or anything in between,  you can check my system out at:
http://www.diesel-bike.com/System/9Main.htm

Good luck and have fun - it's a fun and rewarding project!

duh

6
Generators / Re: ST Heads in the Pacific NW
« on: January 24, 2007, 12:28:12 AM »

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi duh:

I see that you posted a couple of days ago and I didn't notice it until today--sorry about that.

Thanks for the traces. Can you tell me what your sampling rate was on those? And would you be willing to send me the raw data you sampled to make the traces? (If you are, just let me know and I will pass along my personal e-mail address to you by PM.)

Best regards,
Andy Hall

Hi Andy,
The sampling rate was every second.
Help yourself to the raw data (basic text files):

http://www.diesel-bike.com/Lister_Gen/ST_Hz_track_375rpm_OnEngine.txt

http://www.diesel-bike.com/Lister_Gen/ST_Voltage_track_375rpm_OnEngine.txt

Hope they are of some use.

duh


7
Generators / Re: ST Heads in the Pacific NW
« on: January 22, 2007, 12:01:54 AM »
I've read the comments regarding ST heads, AVR, etc...

Having one myself mated to a 6/1, I use it extensively (for emergency use only right?)
Anyway, I have at least one household item that is fairly picky regarding AC: a Toyostove heater (Laser 73).
The Laser rejects the rock solid 120v 60hz modified sinewave output from the Trace 2412 (goes into error and shuts down) - however - it has no problem with the 6/1 ST3kw combo.

Below are two links to pics (1 of a volt track over a few minutes, the other of the Hz track for the same amount of time), and in addition to varying AC loads during the tracking, the DC side was pulling 50 amps and tapering back while supplying power to varying DC loads.... The gen head has no AVR and the test was conducted when engine was at operating temp and maintaining a scorching 375 rpm....

http://www.diesel-bike.com/Lister_Gen/ST_Voltage_track_375rpm_OnEngine.JPG

http://www.diesel-bike.com/Lister_Gen/ST_Hz_track_375rpm_OnEngine.JPG

duh

8
Generators / Re: How to couple shafts
« on: January 19, 2007, 12:03:00 AM »
Dennis,
Are you running v-belts?
One flywheel on my 6/1 runs a serpentine to a 3kw head and the other flywheel runs an alternator set at 75 amps and neither belt slips. Even at full output the DC side will stall the engine on a low battery bank but the belt will not slip (no slip on AC side regardless of load).. I've run it at 660 rpm and for sometime now at 375 rpm - zero slippage.....

duh

9
General Discussion / Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« on: January 18, 2007, 05:08:52 PM »
There are many pieces that make up my off-grid system:
http://www.diesel-bike.com/System/9Main.htm
The generator is for backup/emergency power.
Many things may cause a power failure in these systems. Parts availability/replacement/repairs may take hours, even days.
So, what's the issue again?

10
Petteroids / Re: Ideal RPM
« on: January 14, 2007, 09:23:24 PM »
Quote
But what clone?

I have one too a 102/116 mm. Is yours the same bore stroke or do you have the 110 crank?
I assume its a TBR unit, doe sit have an oil line to the rocker box?.
I want to know everything about your Petter and more pictures would be nice.
Who sold it to you?

Doug

Hi Doug,
I bought the unit a friend and I believe it came out of Maine as an eBay special. Below are links to the few photos I took of it at the time:
http://www.diesel-bike.com/Petter_Gen/Petterrun.JPG
http://www.diesel-bike.com/Petter_Gen/Petterbase.JPG
http://www.diesel-bike.com/Petter_Gen/Pettervalves.JPG
These may help you to determine if it's the same as yours. The pics are large, but on the plus side you can really enlarge them for detail....

duh

11
Petteroids / Re: Ideal RPM
« on: January 14, 2007, 04:30:44 PM »
Duh,
  do you have a thermostat in or are you sucking all the heat out of the engine to heat the house?  It looks like you don't let anything go to waste up there.

PS: you sure got purdy teeth

Robert

Hi Robert,
This unit was setup to hold a 180-190 water temp, and then that heat was used for home heating. I've tried not too waste too much of the fuel dollar since I have a lot of critics with the utility pole being about 30 feet from the pipe riser on the house.

P.S. Glad you like them chompers! Google 13625 on the net and you'll see how these are a necessity  ;)

Hey Doug,
The Petter is a clone, copy, Petter wannabe, or whatever labels are out there. It's a Metro and is a 12hp single with a 7500 watt gen head on it. I seriously over compensated for my electrical needs when I bought it. The reason it became a back-up unit is the Lister-oid is markedly quieter and uses significantly less fuel. It was in the house (where the Lister-oid is now) for one year and it was very reliable.

duh

12
Petteroids / Re: Ideal RPM
« on: January 14, 2007, 04:19:47 PM »
Hi rcavictim,
You and I are on the same page... Check out my site at www.prontopower.com... you'll notice  I'm all about variable speed generators... or should I say constant speed generators with variable speed engines.. While the concept is simple it's not that easy to make a reliable variable speed generator... I currently use a variable displacement hydraulic pump driving a hydraulic motor on the generator... to make a hydraulic CVT... but it's noisy and costly... I would like to use a CVT but I'm not aware of a good one other than the Comet...

http://www.hoffcocomet.com/comet/oem-torque-converters.asp

Subaru Justy's used a CVT that could be placed between the engine and gen set to allow variable speed operation...

Here's a link to CVT for folks who don't know about them

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cvt.htm 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission

Hi fattywagonman,

Interesting thread. I have dealt with the Comet setup extensively, in fact it was my final choice when creating my version of a diesel motorcycle:
http://www.diesel-bike.com/Diesel_Bike/Suzuki.html (Some Comet clutch shots there at the bottom).
After heavy modifications to the Comet and a yield of 115mpg average I had to consider this setup (or a version of) when messing around with the AC side of the Lister-oid. When all was said and done, I ended up choosing an RPM that met my needs and then tweaking for that. The success of that endeavor came from a measly 10 bucks for George's governer upgrade.

I'll be very interested to see if you persue the Comet setup and what you come up with. Sometimes folks like me get tunnel vision and overlook things and a fresh new perspective yields a better approach.

Good luck and drive on!
duh

13
Petteroids / Re: Ideal RPM
« on: January 13, 2007, 03:27:53 AM »
My 12 horse (7500 watt gen head) is good between 1800 - 2000 with impressive vibration above or below.
It also needs to be hot and be pulling a pretty fair load. Not long after the load disappears, the temp drops right off and it runs a bit stanky..

Voltage and hz are as rock steady as any generator combo I've used bar none....

duh

14
General Discussion / Re: What does it sound like?
« on: January 11, 2007, 06:11:32 PM »
Duh:

how many watts can that little guy pull at 375 rpm?

that video puts a smile on my face every time i see it

bob g

Hi mobile_bob,
I'm not sure of actual watts output and I'm too lazy to do the math, however, at 375 engine rpm the DC side turns at about 3200 rpm and is set to clock 75 amps, based on 12.4 volts or less battery bank voltage.

I have tested the output of the DC side at 120 amps continuous at 375 rpm/12.4 battery voltage/ but the AC side will definately flicker (even too much for me) between powerstrokes (will hold between 118-124 volts during the simultaneous use/load). The engine seems quite happy though.

Setting the engine speed up to 660 rpm and the DC side to full output (200 amps continuous when the battery bank is around 12.2 volts) will actually slow down and stall the engine (I couldn't believe it!). This DC unit is pretty interesting and has yet to become more than lukewarm to the touch even while cooling with indoor temps of 65 deg or higher.

The autoparts store ate many a warranty on automotive alternators when I went through the learning/testing curve!

duh

15
General Discussion / Re: What does it sound like?
« on: January 11, 2007, 03:28:46 AM »
I'm sure everyone has a special sweet sound when their engines are running at optimum efficiency.
Please share with us any audio/video you have of your creations.  I'm sure you all have wonderful descriptions as well.  Tell us how it sounds after all the work to get your engine purring to perfection:)
Does anyone ever catch you tapping your foot to the sound of the engine?  Can you tell the rpm by the sound it makes?

I wonder what this one sounds like?  Looks like a real whiner:)  Duh, tell us what else you have done with this setup, its really amazing.  Glad to hear about the increased life expectancy of the house with this setup.
http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=1431.msg19024#msg19024


listerengine2006,
I have put this engine through some long hard hours even if it does not look it. Because it is inside the house and I am part of the Energy Fair Tour of Homes, I have vowed to keep it clean and presentable at all times. (Got it down to a science now.) Currently, (and for quite sometime now) this engine is set to run around 370 rpms. Initially I was skeptical that it could meet my power needs (both AC and DC simultaneously) and survive at that rpm (and yes - the big sin - resilient mounted!). The whiney part you mentioned is the DC side pulling about 70 amps or so during the video shoot.

http://www.diesel-bike.com/Lister_Gen/Videos/low_rpm.wmv

More video clips of this engine at the bottom of this webpage:
http://www.diesel-bike.com/Lister_Gen/Lister1.html

The entire system at a glance:
http://www.diesel-bike.com/System/9Main.htm

Good luck, ask questions, there is a lot of knowledge / experience around.

duh

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