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Messages - tubes_rock

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Listeroid Engines / Re: Low oil temperature
« on: December 03, 2020, 08:54:21 PM »
You can "search" for it the same way I would! I don't have it stored locally, if that's what you mean.

--Justin

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Thanks! I needed that today...

--Justin

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Listeroid Engines / Re: Low oil temperature
« on: December 03, 2020, 04:20:14 PM »
I have 38AC's balancing procedure. Looks to be a hassle, but I have an idea that I've seen in practice on a hit-or-miss engine, and on tire balancing. My setup is on a rigid-frame set of I-beams, and I will have (4) heavy-duty rubber engine mounts under it. This makes the whole engine a dynamic load, and subject to the sway of the vibration. I've seen 3/4" steel pipe (electrical conduit, I believe), fabricated into a closed loop, sized just to fit inside the rim of the each flywheel, and either welded or encased in epoxy for a secure bond. Each hoop is filled with a few pounds of loose lead shot.

Since the engine is free to vibrate on the rubber engine mounts, centripetal force distributes the shot around the hoop within seconds of starting, but not evenly. A vibration cycle to the left, forces the shot to the right, since the engine assembly moves to the left and the shot is free to move on its own. This actually forces the shot to distribute itself in exactly the opposite directions as the flywheel overweight, causing the flywheel to be self-balanced within a few dozen revolutions of the engine. They do the same thing to automatically balance tires. (Look up a product called Dynabeads. You put them in a car or motorcycle tire to do the same thing and they work very well.) I've seen this done on a hit-and-miss engine and the engine was as smooth as you could please.

This method of balancing will work its way into the final setup at some point.

Agree that there isn't much waste heat in the cooling system. It takes a good long run to get things warm, and a moderate cooling surface does a good job of dissipating it.

--Justin

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Listeroid Engines / Re: Low oil temperature
« on: December 02, 2020, 12:30:34 PM »
The above message was posted on my youtube video, and I replied there, so I may as well post the same reply here and open the conversation if anyone wants to chime in:

The "final version" of this install will be in a shed adjacent to my house. I'll have it piped into my home heating system's dual 275-gallon fuel oil tanks for fuel, with a local tank (20 gallons) of winter diesel or K1 kerosene. Start/stop then engine on "cold weather" fuel, and then when it's warm and running, switch to cheap and plentiful heating oil. The cooling system will be a glycol loop run into a hot water storage tank. (Same type of tank as an indirect loop for domestic hot water.) From there, I'll have the "potable water" pipes hooked to standard Taco circulators that can send the heat to rooms in my house, to a separate domestic hot water tank, or just to a set of fins outdoors (like the setup in the garage) if the heat just needs to "go away" and can't be used for anything helpful. That gives me storage capacity for a lot of BTUs and the ability to send them wherever I want automatically. It also allows me to use tap water for the large quantites of water, and antifreeze only for the loop that goes from the engine to the coil in the storage tank. Just a few gallons. It puts some electrical load on the system to run the circulators, (200W, max) and does not have a safety in the event of electrical or circulator failure other than the T&P valve on the storage tank. The loop to the engine and the loop to the "we need to get rid of heat" fins will have two circulators in parallel to allow for maintenance and circulator failure. Electrical failure I'm not too worried about since if the power stops flowing, I'm not likely to continue running the engine. I may put a solenoid to hold up a weight on the injector pump shutoff in such a way that an electrical failure causes the weight to shut the engine down. I'm still working out the details...

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Listeroid Engines / Re: Low oil temperature
« on: November 27, 2020, 02:24:59 PM »
Overthinking things is a true skill of mine... Not saying that I'm good at it, just something that I do a lot!  ;D

Thanks for all the great replies! I will be switching to 15W-40 and next Summer's project might be to add some kind on periodically-running electric oil pump to run the oil through a filter. Maybe.

I live near the USA/Canada border, so Hugh's insights are very appreciated. Thank you for that!

As 38ac stated, these engines have come through thick and thin and in far worse conditions than mine will ever get, so I should not let "perfect" be the enemy of "good."

Great information here, and I thank you all for taking the time to jot your insights down for my education!

--Justin

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Listeroid Engines / Re: Low oil temperature
« on: November 25, 2020, 11:53:48 PM »
Now *that* is the answer I was looking for!

I always thought that all-season multi-vis would be the answer to a number of problems, but "everyone" always says "non-detergent, straight-weight 30," and that doesn't make sense to me. Not looking to spark an oil debate (we all know how those go), but I'm switching to 15W-40 for the winter.

Now, that actually brings up another question: Multi-viscosity oil, 15W-40 for example, is SAE15 viscosity at cold temperatures, but has polymers that thicken it with temperature so that it behaves like a 40 weight oil when hot. If the oil doesn't actually get hot, it will be 15 weight oil all the time. Is that too thin to lube the heavy and sloppy tolerances in these engines under warmer weather conditions? I just get to thinking that they specified 30 weight oil, and unless 15W-40 gets hot enough, it will always be 15 weight oil...

--Justin

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Listeroid Engines / Low oil temperature
« on: November 25, 2020, 06:44:49 PM »
I have a recently-running 1999 Metro 6/1. It's hooked up to an ST-5 generator head. I'm using a thermo-siphon and 20 feet of baseboard heating cores as a cooling system. I have machined an adapter for an automotive thermostat (195 degrees) be be placed in the head to regulate temperature. The cylinder head heats to about 190 before the glycol starts flowing and holds a temperature between 193 and 205 for the entire time of the engine's running.

Here's the question: no matter what load I put on the engine, everything from idle to a continuous 3,500 watts being pushed by the generator, hours at a time, the water remains nearly constant in temperature, and heats quickly at initial startup because of the thermostat. I'm running just under a gallon of Rotella SAE30 oil in the sump. No matter the load, no matter the time the engine runs (often 8 hours or more at a time), the base of the crankcase never exceeds 130 degrees, which tells me that the oil never exceeds 130 degrees. It takes quite a wile (well over an hour of hard running) to attain this temperature.

I've always done well by the rule of never starting an internal combustion engine unless I plan on getting the oil good and hot to drive out the moisture byproducts of combustion, and in my mind, that means getting the oil above 212 degrees for a reasonable length of time. In this engine, however, that does not seem possible, and concerns me about the oil life and the buildup of acids and other unwanted chemistry.

A secondary question with this is that if the sump always stays relatively cool, should I consider putting a 15 weight oil, or a multi-viscosity oil (15W-40?) for winter? It's not uncommon for me to want to run this engine at temperatures well below freezing, and since the sump never gets hot, I'm seriously wondering about the effective splashing action of honey-thick oil in there.

What has experience taught all of you who have had their engines run far more hours than I have yet to put on mine?

I made a (crummy) video of the engine to show the guy that I bought it from that I got it running, and it shows the cooling system, mounting, generator, etc, in case you're curious about the layout or perhaps I've made some fundamentally poor design choices that I need to address. Feedback and your own experience welcomed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPBrGu09J9U

Thanks!

--Justin

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Listeroid Engines / Re: Simple Electric Starter for Listeroids
« on: November 13, 2020, 12:51:47 PM »
Re the permanently belted up starter........a golf cart starter/generator is just that. Mine has been installed for a few years and the set-up has logged nearly 1000 hours. Drag is insignificant. Can still easily pull over 3kw without frequency going from 61Hz @ no load to 59hz at max load of 3600W.  I did have to replace starter brushes once. The pulley diameter on the starter/generator is (I think) around 1 7/8".  Also it keeps it's own independent starting battery charged, can charge a car battery, etc. It is operating now, at this time of year, we don't get much sun.

I also have (still installed but not in use) a modified Delco automotive starter with a 2" rubber roller. It works OK but must be in firm contact with the flywheel (Pick handle lever) before energizing or you just get a lot of burned rubber. That method did not work very well with freezing fog making the flywheel slippery.

Good real-world info here. I had not through of "atmospheric friction modifiers" coming into play, so I appreciate that.

--Justin

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Listeroid Engines / Re: Simple Electric Starter for Listeroids
« on: November 12, 2020, 02:13:51 PM »
I'm not a fan of having an "always engaged" starter. It jsut seems like a waste of energy constantly turning a mechanism for nothing and it's just one more thing to break over time. I think about how fast I have to crank to get it my 6/1 started, and I can't imagine my hand turning that crank faster that about twice around per second, or 120 RPM.

That said, a 12V DC or 120V AC universal motor (like on a 120V drill) could be fitted with a small wheel with a rubber tire and mounded to a handle that's attached to the engine base frame on a hinge or similar pivot point. (Imagine a broom handle attached to the frame with a hinge.) The motor/wheel is attached to the middle of the handle and arranged so that the wheel is not in contact with anything normally, but can be moved to be in contact with the engine flywheel by moving the handle when desired. Gravity or a spring returns it when in its resting position. Since commutator motors (DC or universal) spin at much higher speeds, the wheel can be much smaller to get the desired engine RPM, giving you a greater mechanical advantage. To start the engine, you just turn on the motor, push it up to grab the flywheel and then when the engine starts, lower then handle and shut off the motor. Or engage and then turn on the motor if the motor is sized so that you don't need to initially "slip" it to keep it from stalling. Since the motor is DC (and universal motors can run on DC as well), you don't need perfect AC power and could use a string of batteries or whatever voltage is needed to get it rolling.

A similar idea would be to attach the motor to the engine base and use a belt/pulley arrangement where the belt is larger than needed and freewheels with no power transferred because of continual slip. The handle arrangement described above would have an idler pulley instead of the motor, and when you wanted to start the engine, you'd turn on the motor and move the handle to take up the slack in the belt and get the engine rolling that way. Then when it starts, you let go of the handle and let the belt freewheel again.

--Justin


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Listeroid Engines / Re: Where to get 6/1 head gasket
« on: November 09, 2020, 12:51:24 AM »
Just bought quite a few 114.5mm  and 120MM bore head gaskets from them last month.  I think then O P was referring to the old cyber store that John's sister ran.
Interesting. I contacted Gaskets to Go directly back in June, and he said he did not have any, and wasn't making any, and that I needed to email his sister to see what she could find. Based on this, I was under the impression that he wasn't making them anymore and that I was stuck with whatever overstock his sister had stashed. I'm relieved to hear that you were able to get some recently. Perhaps I just fell victim to the COVID slump that struck in the spring when nobody was making anything. Whew.

Mop-n-Glo and RTV (and a little pride swallowed in having to resort to RTV) and I'll be leak free from the sounds of it. Thanks for the help!

--Justin

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Listeroid Engines / Re: Where to get 6/1 head gasket
« on: November 08, 2020, 01:10:04 AM »
Thanks for the advice. I am not a fan of RTV on things and was really looking for a way to avoid it. It sounds like I'm a not out of luck on this since it sounds like it's a pretty common problem. RTV it is!

Thanks a lot!

--Justin

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Listeroid Engines / Where to get 6/1 head gasket
« on: November 06, 2020, 06:21:10 PM »
At the advice of this forum, I tracked down the sister of the guy who did the 6/1 head gaskets at Gaskets To Go. She still had a few left over and I ordered three, and they look beautiful. Nice fire ring, siliconed paper, and a built-up area of silicone around the water jacket passages. They look great.

I'm running a 1999 Metro 6/1.

I checked the head for warp, and it's good. I had the cylinder decked by a professional shop and got the cylinder liner cut from a protrusion of 0.011" (yikes...!) down to 0.003", so everything seems to be in nice spec, according what what I have researched both on this forum and in other places.

The thing is this: I torque the head down to 150ft/lbs in the standard criss-cross tightening pattern, stepping the torque values up in about 20-lb increments from 50 up to 150 (as far as my wrench will indicate).

The thing is the engine runs great, but it weeps coolant (standard green glycol) over time. Not a puddle, but the head gasket is always wet and every now and then, a drip slides down the outside of the cylinder and collects at the base gasket.

I took it apart, and used Hylomar sealant on the next gasket and socked it down again. It still leaked. I'm thinking that the fire ring is maybe too thick and it all torques up before the edges seal, or the fire ring is make of steel that's too tough and it's not crushing enough.

So, the question is: what can I do differently, or what other brand gaskets can I get that others have had success with? Maybe 150ft-lbs is the wrong value? I'm using the numbers I found, but am open to advice!

Thanks in advance!

--Justin

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Listeroid Engines / Re: Official Lister rings in a Metro 6/1?
« on: May 10, 2020, 07:18:20 PM »
Interesting. Did Lister only make one kind of ring, and it's for chromed bores? This is certainly not a chrome bore, since I had it honed without any problems. The Lister rings don't look chromed, they look like standard grey metal. (They would be "gray" in American English!) So, I'm hearing that I should put the Metro rings back in, imperfections an all?

--Justin

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Listeroid Engines / Official Lister rings in a Metro 6/1?
« on: May 10, 2020, 02:18:43 AM »
Been raking in a ton of useful info from this forum, but haven't had a need to post until now. Maybe this question has been answered, but the "search" function is terrible, and I'm not finding the answer. I have a 1999 Metro 6/1 that was only run at the factory. I bought it from a Y2K prepper who never got around to firing it up. Good for me, bad for him. I've read George's CD three times over, cover to virtual cover. I've taken it completely apart, polished many parts, checked many tolerances. I had a local machine shop cut the cylinder liner protrusion from 0.013 to 0.003 and they gave it a quick hit with the ball hone while they had it. The cylinder is great. The rings have light surface scratches which look like machining marks. They are parallel to the direction of the rings. (They are horizontal when the piston is installed in the engine, if that helps clear things up) I have a new-in-the-metal-cap-cardboard-tube set of Lister standard rings. No part number on the container. They look very nice, brand new, never installed. Perfectly polished. Would it make sense to put those in when I put it all back together? I'm worried that the Lister metal might be harder or softer than the Metro rings, which might have been formulated for the hardness of the Metro cylinder liner. I am looking to avoid deviating from the expected metal hardness and cause worse wear on the cylinder or rings. Are the Metro rings exact duplicates of the Lister rings? I've rebuilt lots of engines, but I'm always putting same-brand parts in. Honda rings go in the Honda engine. Ford rings go in the Ford engine. I've never crossed brand lines on critical engine parts, so I'm asking what would you experienced guys do?

Thanks!

--Justin

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