1
Red Stone Engines / Re: Are these Redstone diesels?
« on: November 23, 2019, 08:20:09 PM »Yes, they certainly look like redstones to me.
I can only view the picture in your first post. The rest are missing.
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Yes, they certainly look like redstones to me.
I can only view the picture in your first post. The rest are missing.
2
Everything else / Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« on: November 20, 2019, 07:50:45 PM »
Yes. The price is steep for the centrifuge setup. I have a few buddies who bought them.
In my case I just bought the machined/balanced bowl and built the rest from scrounged metal.
I wonder how much longer WVO will be avialable in my area. 2 new companies have opened which set up free waste removal for restaurants. There we already several in operation. They process the VO on a large scale. Cleaning it for some use. I don't think it's for biodiesel because it's not economically feasible here. One by one restaurants are accepting their collection bin for waste oil dumping. Small VO collectors are running out of supply.
These companies even pick up from private users. One of my friends had too much to process. He called them and they drove over with a vacuum truck and sucked WVO from two 1000 ltr IBC totes that he had.
Since the drop in Biodiesel interest there has not been much competition to get WVO. But with these new commercial processors, the remaining few home brewers are having trouble getting feedstock.
In my case I just bought the machined/balanced bowl and built the rest from scrounged metal.
I wonder how much longer WVO will be avialable in my area. 2 new companies have opened which set up free waste removal for restaurants. There we already several in operation. They process the VO on a large scale. Cleaning it for some use. I don't think it's for biodiesel because it's not economically feasible here. One by one restaurants are accepting their collection bin for waste oil dumping. Small VO collectors are running out of supply.
These companies even pick up from private users. One of my friends had too much to process. He called them and they drove over with a vacuum truck and sucked WVO from two 1000 ltr IBC totes that he had.
Since the drop in Biodiesel interest there has not been much competition to get WVO. But with these new commercial processors, the remaining few home brewers are having trouble getting feedstock.
3
Everything else / Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« on: November 19, 2019, 04:14:55 PM »
20Kwh, 8 hours, 300L?? Yep, nothing has changed. Still energy intensive, slow and expensive.
Spose as long as we are happy with what we prefer, that's all that matters.
Hey Glort,
I suppose if you consider $0.0053 per liter expensive then you would be correct.
($1.60 per 300 liters)
You tried various methods and prefer settling. I tried various methods and settled on Spinning.
Everyone has their own set of circumstances and constraints. Mine are very limited space and limited batch sizes.
As long as it works, it really does not matter what system a person uses.
cheers mate
4
Everything else / Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« on: November 19, 2019, 02:31:21 PM »Quote
In this scenario, the fuge is not eliminating the water, the added heat, presumably near the boiling point of water is. That is a lot of energy for even a 200L batch and if you are heating it electrically, a fairly slow and expensive process.
On a 20oC day at around 60% Humidity, I can dry and filter a 200L batch of oil in 30 min with well under .5 Kwh of power used with the bubbling/ pumping method.
Yes, the fuge is eliminating water. When you spin warm oil at 5000 g's at a very low flow rate (high retention time) the portion with the heavier specific gravity (water) is separated and pinned against the back ball of the centrifuge drum along with fats and particles. The clean oil continues on.
Define slow and expensive. My system draws 2.5 kw when running. For an 8 hour batch that's 20kw worth of power.
At $0.08 per kwh that amounts to $1.60 per batch of 80 gallons (300 liters).
5
Everything else / Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« on: November 18, 2019, 02:34:43 PM »
I thought the knowledge of water separation was generally understood after all of us "pioneers" tried multiple solutions, sometimes with very messy results.
Like when a hose broke on one of my VO cleaning experiments (pump still running of course) while I was away from the garage for 20 minutes. VO covered the whole floor.
Lesson learned.... no more barbed fitting with hose clamps on the pressure side of a system ! Threaded connection only.
We all have our stories as we earned our right of passage.
I digress...
With the advent of the high "G" centrifuges and heat applied to the oil on the way into the centrifuge, water is pretty much eliminated and the output from the machine is clean dry oil.
Steam exiting the vent of the centrifuge is the exit point for water. And multiple passes through the centrifuge make it even better.
If you have the space for multiple vessels, settling is super simple and effective too, but takes way to long for me and I don't have the space to keep multiple 200 liter drums or 1000 liter IBC totes in my yard.
Small batches through a heated centrifuge is fast and clean.
Like when a hose broke on one of my VO cleaning experiments (pump still running of course) while I was away from the garage for 20 minutes. VO covered the whole floor.
Lesson learned.... no more barbed fitting with hose clamps on the pressure side of a system ! Threaded connection only.
We all have our stories as we earned our right of passage.
I digress...
With the advent of the high "G" centrifuges and heat applied to the oil on the way into the centrifuge, water is pretty much eliminated and the output from the machine is clean dry oil.
Steam exiting the vent of the centrifuge is the exit point for water. And multiple passes through the centrifuge make it even better.
If you have the space for multiple vessels, settling is super simple and effective too, but takes way to long for me and I don't have the space to keep multiple 200 liter drums or 1000 liter IBC totes in my yard.
Small batches through a heated centrifuge is fast and clean.
6
Listeroid Engines / Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« on: November 09, 2019, 03:29:18 PM »I thought I would give an update. I just passed over 110 hours on the generator now. it only gets run when the power goes out. the cyl head still weeps coolant even with a new head gasket. It is a small amount and I don't really worry about it. The power went out yesterday and the lister ran the whole house ( all lights tv, computer, coffee pot, well pump, fridge, beer fridge, other beer fridge, freezer, washing machine, wood boiler circ pumps household of 6) for 23.5 hours and used just over 5.5 gallon of diesel. that is a fun statistic for you.
After such a good run I was looking things over and noted that the mice had moved into my spare parts. When I bought this engine from Gary at DES I bought a whole complement of spare parts. Piston, rod, bearings, bushings injector, injection pump ect... ect… the mouse urine is very corrosive and was damaging my spares as they ate the cardboard. So all the spares had to get unboxed cleaned and moved into steel ammo cans. I painted them with fluid film as I put them away. Other that that it has been great.
Gus, are you seeing any flicker in the lights?
Which generator head are you using ?
Veggie
7
Listeroid Engines / Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« on: November 08, 2019, 05:59:29 PM »
OH MAN !
Ed, I'm green with envy
Somehow members here keep coming up with these "barn finds" for very little cash.
Here in Canada I have never heard of a barn find lister CS.
I suspect there's only 3 working genuine Lister CS units in the whole country.
It would be nice to run across a deal like that.
Rebuild her well and keep the CS legacy going.
Ed, I'm green with envy
Somehow members here keep coming up with these "barn finds" for very little cash.
Here in Canada I have never heard of a barn find lister CS.
I suspect there's only 3 working genuine Lister CS units in the whole country.
It would be nice to run across a deal like that.
Rebuild her well and keep the CS legacy going.
8
Everything else / Re: Space Heating from Engine Heat
« on: November 02, 2019, 05:56:13 PM »To be honest I don't get the question completely I am lost with fahrenheit en BTU's.
A lister 6-1 running 3 kw load, has maybe 30% efficiency(probleby less) the rest is heat losses, exhaust most and cooling water. so 7kw of heat.
There is a formula Q= m*c*deltaT m is mass the amount of liters c is constant of water times the temp difference. Just google it.
You can roughly calculate how many hours it takes to heat up a boiler.
I used a 800 liter boiler and in mild weather say 10 degr celsius, I produced more then I used so had to stop the lister.
hope it helps
Bernhard
Thanks Bernard,
Yes, my Lister should be able to heat the tank from 60f to 170f in approx. 4.5 hours when using heat from the cooling system as well as power
from the generator (heating element). My concern was more to do with how to budget the use of the tank water heat over a 12 hour period (night).
I am not collecting exhaust heat because I have not yet found an exhaust gas heat exchanger that it A] Efficient enough and, B] Practical to clean.
So I'm pushing the exhaust outdoors in to a silencer box similar to what you built.
9
Everything else / Re: Space Heating from Engine Heat
« on: November 02, 2019, 05:37:36 PM »
Thanks Bronco, Good suggestions.
The unit heater actually has a 3 speed fan. It would not be difficult to switch speeds based on fluid temperature.
There is one power wire for each of the 3 speeds. Whichever wire has power produces a different speed.
I will also check into the bypass valves. I was already considering one for the H20 solar panel heat dump loop.
Yes. Maybe I can push the temp up a little and gain some more energy storage.
I do have a 3 gallon expansion tank kicking around.
Once the evacuated tubes are on-line I can push even more heat into the system.
The unit heater actually has a 3 speed fan. It would not be difficult to switch speeds based on fluid temperature.
There is one power wire for each of the 3 speeds. Whichever wire has power produces a different speed.
I will also check into the bypass valves. I was already considering one for the H20 solar panel heat dump loop.
Yes. Maybe I can push the temp up a little and gain some more energy storage.
I do have a 3 gallon expansion tank kicking around.
Once the evacuated tubes are on-line I can push even more heat into the system.
10
Everything else / Re: Space Heating from Engine Heat
« on: November 01, 2019, 01:43:17 PM »Are you using a thermostat in the engine coolant to keep the engine hot, about 190F or just straight thermosiphoning ?
The engine has a 190f thermostat and the water exiting the engine will run into a coil loop inside the solar tank.
After exiting the tank there is a small radiator heat dump which activates if the return water is too hot.
The tank is a well insulated solar hot water collector with dual internal heat exchange coils and a backup heating element.
My main reason for doing this project is twofold.
1] I have all the components collecting dust and want to put them to use. This will offset the cost of the existing heater when the roid is running on WVO. I can learn a lot about hydronic systems at the same time.
2]Greenhouse. Once the system proves itself the fan/coil heater will be moved to the greenhouse on the outside of the garage wall.
My experiments with an electric heater this autumn showed that this heat will be enough to extend my growing season by 1.5 to 2 months on either end of summer by keeping the space warm through the night. That part has been proven the past several growing seasons.
3] This system can be expanded with a second tank once I get my 2 evacuated tube collectors mounted and producing heat.
The system is totally scale-able.
Back to my original question, does the logic seem sound for my method of stretching the heat over a 12 hour period?
(a question perhaps more suited to the Micro-Cogen forum but nobody looks there anymore)
11
Everything else / Space Heating from Engine Heat
« on: October 31, 2019, 11:30:34 PM »
I have calculated that my 50 gallon solar storage tank can supply my garage with 12 hrs of heat between 160 Degf and 50 Degf if I heat it to the upper value and then draw 3500 btu/hr in the form of a fan/radiator until the lower value is reached. To help heat my garage space.
I can charge the tank to 160f by running the Listeroid for 4 hrs and transfering the coolant heat and electrical heat (via an electric heating element) to the tank fluid.
I have a fan/coil capable of 18500 btu's output which can be piped to the tank and be energized to blow heat into the space when the tank liquid reaches 160f.
Problem:
When the fan/coil is energized it will exchange far more heat (Btu's) when the water temperature is at 160f than it will when the water temp falls to, say 65f.
So I will get most of my heat transfer taking place in the first few hours of the cycle and little transfer later in the cycle becasue of the lower differential temps across the radiator as the water loses heat.
If I can pull a constant 3500 btu's from the tank, it should last 11 - 12 hours through the night.
What do you guys think of this solution....
Cycle the Fan/Coil based on tank temperature so excess heat is not expelled at the start of the cycle.
Basically cycling the fan (and circ pump) to control the release of heat over time.
As and example...
(Just for illustration, I have not calculated these values yet.)
======= FAN/COIL CYCLING==========
Tank Temp Cycle time (ON-OFF) Minutes
==================================
160 5 - 10 Short heating cycle
150 6 - 10
140 7 - 10
130 8 - 10
120 9 - 10
110 10 - 9
100 11 - 8
90 12 - 7
80 13 - 6
70 14 - 5
60 15 - 3
50 16 - 0 Long heating cycle
Does this approach make sense?
A simple Arduino program with a motor relay could run the heater fan and circ pump.
Some of you guys that are more familiar with heating and cooling systems may have an opinion as to whether I'm on the right track.?
I would use this as an initial system to prove the garage CHP model.
Later I could make the controls more intelligent by having the microcontroller measure the change in tank temperature over time (BTU's used and BTU's remaining) and dynamically adjust the fan cycle time to budget the heat over a 12 hour period.
And is an tank target temperature of 160f realistic? or should I take it higher and store more heat?
cheers,
veggie
I can charge the tank to 160f by running the Listeroid for 4 hrs and transfering the coolant heat and electrical heat (via an electric heating element) to the tank fluid.
I have a fan/coil capable of 18500 btu's output which can be piped to the tank and be energized to blow heat into the space when the tank liquid reaches 160f.
Problem:
When the fan/coil is energized it will exchange far more heat (Btu's) when the water temperature is at 160f than it will when the water temp falls to, say 65f.
So I will get most of my heat transfer taking place in the first few hours of the cycle and little transfer later in the cycle becasue of the lower differential temps across the radiator as the water loses heat.
If I can pull a constant 3500 btu's from the tank, it should last 11 - 12 hours through the night.
What do you guys think of this solution....
Cycle the Fan/Coil based on tank temperature so excess heat is not expelled at the start of the cycle.
Basically cycling the fan (and circ pump) to control the release of heat over time.
As and example...
(Just for illustration, I have not calculated these values yet.)
======= FAN/COIL CYCLING==========
Tank Temp Cycle time (ON-OFF) Minutes
==================================
160 5 - 10 Short heating cycle
150 6 - 10
140 7 - 10
130 8 - 10
120 9 - 10
110 10 - 9
100 11 - 8
90 12 - 7
80 13 - 6
70 14 - 5
60 15 - 3
50 16 - 0 Long heating cycle
Does this approach make sense?
A simple Arduino program with a motor relay could run the heater fan and circ pump.
Some of you guys that are more familiar with heating and cooling systems may have an opinion as to whether I'm on the right track.?
I would use this as an initial system to prove the garage CHP model.
Later I could make the controls more intelligent by having the microcontroller measure the change in tank temperature over time (BTU's used and BTU's remaining) and dynamically adjust the fan cycle time to budget the heat over a 12 hour period.
And is an tank target temperature of 160f realistic? or should I take it higher and store more heat?
cheers,
veggie
13
Listeroid Engines / Re: Listeroid Oil Change Interval
« on: October 24, 2019, 02:51:39 PM »
I'm currently finalizing the tubing from the engine to the oil pump and onward to the oil filter.
I will post some pictures of the crank ventilation and filtration system after I'm done.
I will post some pictures of the crank ventilation and filtration system after I'm done.
14
Listeroid Engines / Re: Listeroid Oil Change Interval
« on: October 24, 2019, 02:49:06 PM »my worry is moisture/water build up. the oil never gets hot enough to dry out.
I believe there is a fair amount of blowby and acid production into the oil, and I've never liked acid and bearings living together.
Good point.
I installed a better crankcase breather system on my engine. The breather has a check valve on it's way to the air intake filter so the air blown out by the piston cannot get back into the crankcase.
When the engine is running and I disconnect the tube to look at the flow, there is a considerable amount of air movement through the tube.
That big piston displaces a lot of space in the crankcase when it moves from TDC to the bottom of it's stroke.
I wonder if that constant replacement of air along with oil at 140f would be enough to carry away water vapour along with the other crankcase gasses?
15
Listeroid Engines / Listeroid Oil Change Interval
« on: October 24, 2019, 12:26:55 AM »
The original oil change intervals set for Lister CS engines were determined back in the 1940's era.
Oils of that vintage may not have been of the same quality and molecular blend as today's oils.
So I'm wondering if we can extend the recommended interval from 250 hrs to something longer?
Reasoning:
1] Most of the newer listeroid variants have roller bearings instead of sleeve bearings on the crank.
This reduces frictional shear at the bearings and makes for a cooler running bearing. Less demand on the oil.
2] Low temperature requirements. The sump is far from the cylinder head & cylinder and the oil is not circulated up to the head where it can gain heat so the whole oil system runs at a fairly low temperature of something like 130f.
Heat breakdown is probably not existent.
3] Today's good quality oils have superior molecular chains and bonds with great fluid film strength properties and oxidation resistance.
I realize that many users simply buy the cheapest basic oil they can find and then change every 250 hrs or less.
That's fine too. But what are your thoughts on longer duration intervals?
I am in the process of adding a small 12 volt gear pump and an inline automotive filter to my Roid again.
The pump will be on a timer relay which runs the filter system on a 50% duty cycle of 10 minutes on...10 minutes off when ever the engine is running.
So the oil should be kept fairly clean.
I was thinking of extending the oil change interval to 500 hrs.
Anyone experimented with longer oil change intervals ?
Oils of that vintage may not have been of the same quality and molecular blend as today's oils.
So I'm wondering if we can extend the recommended interval from 250 hrs to something longer?
Reasoning:
1] Most of the newer listeroid variants have roller bearings instead of sleeve bearings on the crank.
This reduces frictional shear at the bearings and makes for a cooler running bearing. Less demand on the oil.
2] Low temperature requirements. The sump is far from the cylinder head & cylinder and the oil is not circulated up to the head where it can gain heat so the whole oil system runs at a fairly low temperature of something like 130f.
Heat breakdown is probably not existent.
3] Today's good quality oils have superior molecular chains and bonds with great fluid film strength properties and oxidation resistance.
I realize that many users simply buy the cheapest basic oil they can find and then change every 250 hrs or less.
That's fine too. But what are your thoughts on longer duration intervals?
I am in the process of adding a small 12 volt gear pump and an inline automotive filter to my Roid again.
The pump will be on a timer relay which runs the filter system on a 50% duty cycle of 10 minutes on...10 minutes off when ever the engine is running.
So the oil should be kept fairly clean.
I was thinking of extending the oil change interval to 500 hrs.
Anyone experimented with longer oil change intervals ?