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Messages - Anubis

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(I make the distinction between Genuine and Indian because there might be a difference)

I am needing to refurb by old CS cylinder head. Unfortunately at some time in the past, I suspect there has been a persistant head gasket leak which has allowed water into the combustion chamber resulting in erosion/pitting of the head, particularly around the mouth of the combustion port extending up to the edge of the cylinder gasket ring (IYSWIM). Skimming 40 thou would improve it a lot, 80 thou might just clean it up altogether BUT what is likely to be the safe machining limit?

If anybody has any practical experience to share I would be most gratefull.


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Engines / Re: What have I got here??
« on: August 17, 2010, 03:20:20 PM »
Whats the wattage of the gen head , perhaps it was run at 850 R.P.M. to boost H.P. for a larger head.

It is a genuine SOM (IE with the built in starter etc) head rated at 2.5KVA, which is correct for the 6/1 application. It also has the correct part number for the chassis plate so I am sure that this is how it left the factory and hasn't been unduly messed with over the last  55 years or so (Well, appart from this odd cylinder/piston situation anyway :)  ).


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Engines / Re: What have I got here??
« on: August 17, 2010, 08:56:18 AM »
8/1 cylinders had exposed cylinder studs and 600/650 rpm engines had the studs pass through the block.If using an alloy piston in a 6/1 then you need to use an 8/1 bump height (cylinder head clearance) re expansion of the piston when hot.



That sounds like it. The studs are visible along the body of the block passing through "Flanges" at the top and bottom (IYSWIM)

I have also done a little checking and conclude that the iron piston is several pounds heavier than the alloy one so a new piston might well be a good idea.

Unless anybody knows better. I cannot think of any particular reason to change the block. Some of the originals might have been chromed but I doubt if any of the Indian replacement ones are. (In fact the spares shop only offers a choice of "Old" 7 stud and "New" 5 stud) and it otherwise seems in good condition (There is the "slightest" of ridges at the top, barely noticable with the edge of a finger nail. Nothing a light honeing wont fix!)

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Engines / Re: What have I got here??
« on: August 16, 2010, 07:59:52 PM »
Hello Anubis,
                 I believe there were such things as 8/1 type engines de-rated to 6 hp at 650 rpm. If it is one of these it will not have the change over valve in the head, but
a square headed plug instead. In this case the alloy piston and 4 rings will be correct.  Indian Listeroid spares are available to fit most CS types, and quality is OK. It's the
assembly methods that is their main problem.  Hope you solve the mystery.  Try decoding the year of manufacture. Any digits following the 61 on the plate are added to
1950 to give the year. Change over valves were discontinued somewhere in the '50's, when the 8/1 was produced, so you may have a de-rated one of these,
                                                                                                                                                                  Regards,  Combustor.

The engine number is 8158616 so I guess that would suggest 1956.

(The engine number and generator number each correspond to the plant plate on the cast iron base)

The head does have a change over valve and "Appears" to be the original one. It is only the cylinder block that is different (It is red (Primer?) instead of green) but the cylinder does not look like a new one, rather a S/H one of some age!

The cylinder and piston seem in good condition.

I have not had the engine running since I acquired it (Leaking exhaust valve) so I don't know to what extent balance might be an issue, But I would have thought that a cast iron piston would be heavier than an alloy one and that if an "Incorrect" piston has been fitted then the counterweighting on the flywheels will be wrong.

If nobody has a "Definitive" awnser then I suppose I could just put it back together again and see! it wouldn't take long after all.   ;D

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Engines / Re: What have I got here??
« on: August 16, 2010, 10:47:50 AM »
As Potter points out, the 8/1 had the alloy piston and the four-ring configuration. Does the engine plate have 650 rpm?  Sounds like you may have a 6/1 engine with an 8/1 cylinder and piston.

It is definitely a 6/1 650RPM engine. So that sounds likely. As I said, the block has been replaced so it wouldn't be surprising if a "new" piston came with it. Appart from this the machine appears to be complete (IE all the various serial numbers match up with one another)

Would it be advisable to replace the piston with a 6/1 one?

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Engines / What have I got here??
« on: August 15, 2010, 11:39:35 AM »
Recently aquired 6/1 SOM (Solid Kidney hole flywheels). Clearly at some point the block has been replaced (It is a diferent colour) and it has been running like this for some time (the block is full of limescale and the piston crown had a healthy layer of coke) though I have not had it running myself. (The head had no compression due to knackererd valves and needs an overhaul/replacement)

The piston is an alloy one and only has 4 rings (3 compression and one oil scraper. The top compression ring is significantly thicker than the other two)

I was given to understand that these originally had cast iron pistons. and  had pistons with 5 rings.

So what do I have here??

And should I replace it with a 5 ring cast iron one (I would imagine that an iron piston would be heavier than the alloy one and having an incorrect piston would mean that the flywheel ballance would be wrong)

Sorry if these are Lister CS newby questions but that is exactly what I am!  ;D

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Engines / Re: Lister CS water jacket presure limits question.
« on: July 06, 2010, 10:03:23 AM »
Yep, sounds like heat exchanger is the way to go!  ;D

Another thought that occurred to me  (since the amount of heat coming off the cooling system is unlikely to be that large. it is only a 3 Kw gen after all and I wont necessarily be using all of that all the time) is that the cooling water could be circulated (at low pressure) around its own heating loop with one or two domestic radiators of suitable capacity with an additional fan driven car type rad outside the house if the temperature gets too high due to lack of heat demand (House up to temp)

Said loop could be filled with antifreeze mixture!

An exhaust heat exchanger is of course a different issue! Here's a simple plan that I found that a reasonably competent welder should be able to follow.

http://www.volvoxengineering.com/images/heatexchange.pdf

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Engines / Next question :). Cylinder head face condition quiry.
« on: July 06, 2010, 09:39:33 AM »
Well, I removed the cylinder head from my new acquisition yesterday (It doesn't take long does it!  ;D )

The top of the piston is (after wiping the gunge off) in perfect condition and the cylinder bore has only the slightest of ridge, and then only at one point. (I can just detect it with the edge of a fingernail a "Deglaze" hone would likely remove it completely!)

However

The face of the cylinder head seems to be somewhat pitted and eroded around the mouth of the injection cavity. At first I thought "Oh Pooh!" but photos I have seen on the web of Lister cylinder head faces suggest that they all look a bit like that.

What is "Normal" on a (Genuine. Not an "Oid") Lister? and if it is not normal, what is "acceptable" (I imagine that as long as it runs OK it is acceptable!  ;)  )  I am used to car/truck cylinder heads where these components are invariably machined smooth with no rough surfaces. 

On another note (though I haven't fully disassembled it yet) the valves seem somewhat receded. I don't imagine fitting new valve seats is too big a problem if it proves necessary (I know an engineering company that routinely does this sort of thing on car cylinder heads, especially on older cast iron ones that have been wrecked by unleaded petrol!)

My Lister service manual suggests that the valve faces should have a recess of betwen 5 thou and 100 thou. I am just wondering if their is any collective wisdom as to what one should aim for (IYSWIM) during a rebuild?

On yet Another note!  There is Sooo much limescale in the water galleries :o.  I am thinking of trying to dissolve it out with kettle descaler unless somebody has a better idea!

Thaks all!

Anubis


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Engines / Re: Lister CS water jacket presure limits question.
« on: July 05, 2010, 09:19:35 AM »
Thanks for that, I had figured that this would be the case but wondered what other peoples experiences might be. (Good or bad...  ;D)

 

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Engines / Lister CS water jacket presure limits question.
« on: July 04, 2010, 11:50:14 AM »
Does anybody have any idea (Or has experimented with)  what the safe maximum water jacket pressure is on a Lister CS?

IE Can it be used as "Part" of a domestic heating system in a CHP application or are domestic heating system pressures likely to be too high (especially sealed ones) requiring that a suitable heat exchanger be used ?

Anubis

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Original Lister Cs Engines / Proud new SOM owner (and forum memeber)
« on: June 11, 2010, 07:54:50 PM »
Well, I have done it.

I am now the proud owner of a complete CS 6/1 SOM.  (IE it includes the separate controll box that is so often missing!)

I bought it off E-bay (UK). some might think that I paid a bit over the odds but the difference between a "Fair" price and what I paid was only a couple of hundred quid at the most and in the great scheme of things I reckoned that it was more important to have a complete system. the real expense will come later as I restore it to reliable operation.

I only had a small trailer to recover it and I actually think I was Lucky that it didn't collapse under the weight getting it home   (No seriously! :o I had considered that the 6/1 was 330KG and the cast iron base not more than 150 KG. Now I read that the SOM engines are actually nearer 500KG owing to somewhat heavier flywheels. The weight of the base I do not know!  The generator was removed and put in the back of the landcruiser to reduce the load on the trailer but it still must have been somewhat more than the 500KG rated load capacity!)

Thus far I have not even got it off the trailer (This will be fun) It turns over smoothly but I am clearly not getting compression (My guess is that the exhaust valve is not seating owing to it spending the last 5 years open on the decompressor)

I have no real issues with getting the engine to work but I am more concerned about the SOM alternator and controll boxes. The controll boxes both require complete restoration/rewiring and the cables between the alternator and the top controll box are in poor condition (Insulation brittle and cracked)


I would be gratefull if anybody who has had experience of repairing the controll boxes and alternator would be willing to share their experiences.


Photos to follow!


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