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Messages - Stevels

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Listeroid Engines / Sage Advice
« on: June 23, 2009, 08:54:43 PM »
As always, gentlemen, thanks for your posts and comments!

I do have George's CD, and  have for years.  I believe I have read through most or all of it, but I have certain pockets of stupidity that prevent me from actually figuring out the basic care and feeding sections are among all the massive amounts of details that I also find interesting.  I thought perhaps if there were some threads on the forum of the reader's digest, condensed operators manual, it would be helpful to get the facts in one, small place.

As for the original manual, I bought this engine in 2005 from the back of a guy's truck.  I don't think there were more than two guys in the states back in 2005 that sold these - none of them being actual "dealers"  If I recall, we practiaclly had to smuggle these engines in to the states. 

I don't believe I ever had an operator's or service manual that explained anything.  in fact, I was surprised that I was never shipped instructions on even how to start the engine.  I recall the only thing that the engine came with was some parts lists written in Indian.

Maybe this is why I am feeling so dumb. (or not)

Jens, Thanks for the reference to the photo.  This is exactly what I thought, but I am glad to confirm it.  Part of my confusion is that the top of this pump, there is a bolt that I thought would be the place to mount an oil pressure gauge.  When I do, it does not show any pressure at all :(

So, does anyone know where I can get a PDF of the Operators and Service manuals for a 12/2?

Thanks, oh, wise men.


Listeroid Engines / Re: Basic advice
« on: June 23, 2009, 02:53:59 AM »
Thanks Jens,

do you have any pictures of your system?  I can't seem to locate most of these areas on my lister, and suspect it is because I am a moron.

300 hours between oil changes.. wow! 

Listeroid Engines / About to go online
« on: June 22, 2009, 04:11:00 AM »
I am happy to say that I am about to go online with my WVO Lister co-generator.  I realized that I don't have some very basic information about this engine and I am hoping some nice forum person can help point me in the right direction for this info, as I will be going live any day.

Here are some really basic questions about my 12/2 that I really don't know the definite answers to:

1) How long can i go between oil changes?
2) How do i drain the oil? there is no obvious sump drain plug?
3) Can I install an oil pressure gauge? If so, where would it go?
4) Can I install an oil filter? If so, where would it go?
5) is there a list of the daily, routine maintainance to keep this running 24/7?

I have lots more questions, but this is a good start. I assume this info is all here, but where?



Listeroid Engines / Re: Chopping up my Listeroid!!
« on: November 27, 2007, 04:16:26 AM »
Yeah, I agree that the engine is not going to do much against heating 40,000 gallons of pool water, but I just assume dump the waste heat onto the pool than into a radiator.

Once I can figure out how to take my flywheels off, I should have the engine moved soon.  I can't seem to get the key out so I can pull the flywheels.  I suppose I should read up on how to remove the woodriff key before I break out the TNT.

Sure, we are all more comfortable with a closed loop system running antifreeze and a heat exchanger.  Yes, this would give me a nice buffer between the heating system and the engine, and also allow the use of typical automotive cooling system chemicals.  My concern is that it seems to defeat the purpose of the design.

I am a waste vegetable oil (WVO) enthusiast.  I have converted my car, bus, generator and lawnmower to run on veggie.  Unlike my previous work, my hope is to run the Listeroid completely on WVO without the need to start it on diesel.  What I mean to say is that I do not want to convert the Listeroid engine to a two tank, diesel/ WVO hybrid, like I have done with my other engines.  The whole idea of this design is to have the Listeroid and the WVO constantly heated to full operating temperature at all times. 

Remember, I am using free, waste materials to fuel my hydronic heating system in the first place.  I essentially already have free, unlimited heat.  Heating the 1,500 pound engine 24/7 is no problem.  What’s more, I just assume get some heat going in the basement of the garage anyhow, since I have other plumbing there I want to prevent from freezing.

We have all tried to start our CS engines in the dead of winter.  Image how easy it would be to start a “Cold Start” engine if it were always completely warmed up?  "Hot Start" or HS!

The furnace is cast iron, like the Listeroid, and the water used in it is conditioned already to be non-corrosive and neutral to cast iron and all the components typically found in a hydronic saystem.  The system is not pressurized at all – except for the negligible pressure created from the Taco 009 circulator pump pushing the water.

What would suck is if I did any damage to the engine by virtue of having it heated 24/7 for months at a time.  It would be rain on my parade if Indian tolerances allowed engine oil to seep in to the hydronic loop or vice versa.  It would depress me if a 185 degree engine was still not hot enough to burn WVO without long term engine damage – you guys seem to all like to run at 195 even with diesel! 

Most of all, I am hoping you can tell me more stuff I may not be thinking about before I go off on another one of my silly adventures.

Once again, you guys are all great and very helpful.

Please feel free to pound upon my reasoning.


Listeroid Engines / Re: Chopping up my Listeroid!!
« on: November 18, 2007, 05:12:00 AM »
.....or, you could just make the trap door bigger ;)

Ahh, good point!  You are thinking outside the box, or at least the trap door!

I think, however, that I will be able to get it through the trap with only a little disassembly, and some Vaseline on all the edges.  It is just as well considering my winch has only a 1,000 pound capacity. 

I will post pictures once the “co-generator” is installed.  I am excited to finish my design and harness the waste heat from the Listeroid directly into my central hydronic heating system.  It will be installed directly into the existing waste heat powered “loop” I just built, which ties together two buildings, all domestic hot water for both buildings, a 40,000 gallon pool and a hot tub too! 

Sure, it won’t heat it all, but the waste heat from the ‘roid will all be used for sure!  Since I will be running 100% waste vegetable oil, I will capture the waste of the waste.  How Zen.

I should be posting the progress to my project site at:



Thanks for the advice on disassembling my 12/2 from my previous thread.  I will heed it.  Here is another question.  What is the ideal operating temperature of a 12/2? 

The real reason I am moving the ‘roid into the basement of the garage is to plumb the engine into the central hydronic heating system on my property.  I plan on both using the heating system, powered by free, waste dead wood, to constantly heat the Listeroid, as well as to use the waste heat from the engine when it is running, to heat the house, apartment, hot tub and pool.  I do not know yet what the duty cycle will be of the engine and generator, but I assume it will be no more than 8 hours running and 16 hours at rest a day.

I had always intended to do some type of  ”co-gen” system with the Listeroid, that is, use the waste heat as well as the electricity from the gen set, but now that I moved to a large property with a few buildings, now all connected with highly insulated, underground thermal PEX, all the pieces are coming together for my dastardly plan.

My question is this:  What is the ideal temperature to run a 12/2?  Can anyone give me a good reason why I should not run hot water through the engine at all times regardless of the engine running or not?  The water will be between 174 and 186 degrees and the flow will probably be about 6 or 8 gallons a minute.  The fluid I am using is essentially 400 gallons of tap water, with a small amount of corrosion inhibitor, and is corrected for a neutral Ph level.  There is no antifreeze in it at all, but provisions are made to prevent it from freezing as well as overheating (boiling)

My little scheme seems to be like a win-win.  Use the waste wood (and waste vegetable oil) furnace to heat the engine (and waste vegetable oil fuel for running the Lister) to operating temperature 24/7, while at the same time, when the engine is running, harness that waste heat to reduce the burden on the furnace, offering perhaps 40K btu of free heat – all without having to build a radiator for the ‘roid or expose the engine to cold motor oil or warm up times.

Does anyone know if I am missing a real showstopper of a blunder?    I would love your comments!
Thanks again!


Listeroid Engines / Chopping up my Listeroid!!
« on: November 16, 2007, 12:51:57 AM »
I am looking for some advice from the forum regarding disassembling and moving my Listeroid 12/2.  In order to complete my new design of a waste vegetable oil based cogenerator, I need to move my Listeroid into the basement of my garage.  Yes, it is strange that a garage would have a basement, but this new property I bought is a strange place indeed! 

There is a trap door in the garage floor that will allow me to use a winch to lower heavy loads to the basement, but it is fairly small, about 2 ½ ‘ X 3’

I will have to partially disassemble the engine to get it through the hole, but I want to do this intelligently and not just take the impact wrench out for gratuitous disassembly.

Can anyone tell me what easy, basic pieces from the Listeroid 12/2 can be taken apart for moving?  Roughly what will the size and weight of the largest single piece be?

Also, when I remove the fly wheels, will I have to mark the original positions of the wheel relative to the crankshaft because of balancing issues?

Any advice would be great, as I am about to chop my baby up any day now!



Listeroid Engines / Re: World’s Stupidest Lister Question!
« on: June 24, 2006, 06:54:56 AM »
... My static balance showed 330 grams needed on each flywheel almost opposit from the cast in flywheel weights. ....
Thanks, Geno

Hey Geno, what is this static balance you speak of?  Is there a simple procedure to balance these flywheels?  I really don't want to mess with taking them off and balancing them the old fashion way. Please do tell! Thanks,


Straight Vegetable Oil / Re: I finally am generating AC on SVO
« on: June 21, 2006, 03:57:01 PM »
Intersting ideas.  Do you men happen to have any pictures of your isolation slabs or the barrel muffler?  A picture is worth 975 words, maybe more!

SolarGuy, you have your engine in the basement?  Is that working well for you? Is it legal?  Does your wife mind?

GuyFawkes, If a lister is well ballanced, would it still need to be cemented down so well?  I wonder where my Listeroid falls in the spectrum of balance.  It seems like it shakes alot more than an engine should at 650 RPM, but condiering the tollrernces of all the components on this motor, it is amazing it runs at all! 

I like the barge idea, but in the heart of the city, large bodies of water are hard to come by.

Thaks for all your feedback.

Anyone try using hockey pucks as mototr mounts?

Straight Vegetable Oil / Re: I finally am generating AC on SVO
« on: June 20, 2006, 02:28:14 AM »
How did you know I have a leaky petcock?  Is it that obvious ;)

Yeah, imagine how surprised I was to find fuel leaking and seeping from all orifices from such a fine, hand crafted machine.

I swear, if this thing ran any faster than 650 RPM, it would fly into a million pieces of Hunter Green shrapnel!

I will give the entire fuel assembly some loving, since I have decided to go 100% VO and NOT do a hybrid of diesel and VO, like I wisely did with my car.  With my car, it was actually much more intuitive and easy to run a proper hybrid system, but wit h the Listeroid, it is a pile of suck, I think I can work around it.

One of the things that attracted me to the Listeroids in the first place is its simple, mechanical design.  I hate to mess with it more than is needed so I do not disrespect the time proven simplicity.  Remember the KISS principle!  It seems that there are a number of confounding difficulties that make setting up the Listeroid as a hybrid, that is -- starting and stopping on diesel, very difficult.  While it is certainly doable, I frankly don’t feel it is worth it, and will design around this to make a fully 100% VO system. To do this properly, and not score myself some long term engine damage, I raided the junk yard and have some tricks up my sleeve! 

I read a great and comprehensive Web article published by a group of Cornel undergraduates who converted a Listeroid to Veg.  I was most impressed, but I found their design was way too complicated, employing electronically controlled heat exchangers to try to regulated their tapping into the exhaust heat.  I think I can use a much simpler, albeit crude design, but achieve the same goal, with less expense and sophisticated components.

I look forward to setting all the pieces up, painting them Hunter Green, and posting the finished product on the forum.

Question:  Does anyone have what they think is the best rubber mounting design to isolate Mr. Lister from shaking my city neighbors?  Also, I am about to work on an exhaust system, a la “RocketBoy”. 

Does anyone have any advice to give regarding what they may have learned while doing their own set up?  I need a super quiet system, as I am in the city. I have read about a bunch of designs, but would love for someone to give me some first have advice.

Thanks for all your feedback!!



Straight Vegetable Oil / Re: I finally am generating AC on SVO
« on: June 18, 2006, 04:34:16 AM »
“Is there some reasoning as to why you have the coolant running with a Taco pump in the opposite direction to the rest of us? Or am I just seeing things wrong? Syphon works the other way round.”

Hi Binnie,

Good question.  This was a point of a bunch of consideration.  After weighing several possible plans, I decided to actively NOT use thermosyphon on this design because of my plans on harnessing the waste heat from the engine to heat my house.  I will fabricate a car radiator as a summer cooling system to replace the barrel completely, but in the winter, I will pipe the coolant into the house and feed it into a water to air heat exchanger.  With this said, I need an active water pump system to push water through the radiator and heat exchanger.

Since I have not gone to the junkyard yet to get a radiator, I used one of my 55 gallon WVO filtering barrels as a temporary cooling system – just to test the proof of concept.  I am breaking all the laws of thermosyphoning, but a Taco pump trumps thermosyphon laws any day!  (notice the Taco's Hunter Green paint job?)

As for the placement of the gen head, I too was inspired by RocketBoy’s design, and plan on setting my system up against the back, corner garage wall – using the wall for my electric box and exhaust system.  After looking at the placement of all the important components, setting up the system with this orientation made complete sense. Additionally, I find that there would be no difference between using the cranking flywheel vs. the free flywheel in terms of starting or running the motor. It just does not matter, yet having the components laid out like I have done makes the future placement of my cooling and exaust system meet my taste better, and, I think it just looks cool to see the gen head pully from the front of the system :)

I have a lot more development to do on this system before it is complete.  I will keep it posted.  Good luck with your 12/2.  I bet you are psyched!

Straight Vegetable Oil / I finally am generating AC on SVO
« on: June 18, 2006, 03:07:38 AM »
I Just wanted to share the excitement with the forum.  While far from finished with my project, I did have an important milestone today.  I ran a large, 220v air conditioner from my Listeroid using straight Vegetable oil. 

I am still working on the vibration dampening and exhaust system, as well as basically every other system too, but for the first time, actually ran this big AC with 100% straight VO.  I ran for about an hour!  I posted a little MPG of the proof of concept milestone.
AC running on SVO

Listeroid Engines / More World’s Stupidest Lister Questions!
« on: June 14, 2006, 05:55:01 AM »
Funny, instinctively I “feared” these flywheels!  Something about many hundred pounds of cast iron spinning at 650 rpm, with 12 HP behind them makes me wonder why more people don’t die from these things! 

I have another question for wise men here.  There seems to be a balance problem with the flywheels.  Imagine that, an engineering imperfection in my Indian motor!  The flywheel on the right seems to be in better true than the one on the left (the one I crank).  The left flywheel seems to be slightly off true, and running slightly eccentric, as if the main rod is very slightly bent.  This is causing the motor to shake a whole lot more than I would think it should. 

I would estimate that the wheel oscillates between about 1/8” to 3/16” off center when spinning.  What has me more concerned is that I am planning on attaching my generator pulley to this flywheel.  If I attach my generator pulley to this fly wheel, will I have bad things happen to my generator bearings?  How about the belt?  Is this margin of erro normal?

I have included a link to a large mpeg, but it is a big file (9MB) and I don’t even think it illustrates the “off true” of the fly wheel very well, since it is very slight -- it does not show up on the video very well.  Regardless, I have included it here in hopes that perhaps someone with a fast internet connection may take a glance at it and let me know if the engine seems to be within “spec” for a Listeroid.

Click for Mpeg of my eccentric Listeroid

I am hoping that this wobble is normal for these engines and that everyone’s does this, and still works fine with the ST gen head.

I won’t even entertain trying to straighten the main shaft to a better tolerance than it is now.  There is no way I can do that type of work.  Has anyone tried to better balance the flywheels with weights? 

Talk about scary!  Lead weights attached to the flywheels…. this is a projectile waiting to happen.



Listeroid Engines / Mission Accomplished
« on: June 13, 2006, 07:16:27 PM »
Thanks every one!  I did it!

With your help, I got the Listeroid started for the first time.

It now starts up easily every time.  I will post a MPG of it, since I now have a question about the balance of the flywheels.

Thanks again!  Another Listeroid is running in the world!


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