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Messages - Procrustes

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Listeroid Engines / Re: American made head gasket for a 6/1
« on: December 14, 2007, 07:58:55 PM »
My Ashwamegh 6/1 has a cylinder liner and 4-bolt head.  You ought to be able to look or feel through your crankcase door to determine if you have one yourself.

Lister Based Generators / Re: SIZING A GENERATOR FOR HOME USE
« on: December 14, 2007, 07:27:15 PM »
My biggest problem now is the inability to find a reasonably priced air cleaner for the compressed air system - my only source was Fremont Industrial Supply but ever since I asked them for shipping costs they have stopped replying to emails. No idea if they are buried in snow, flooded out, don't ship to Canada and too lazy to say so or if they closed their doors. VERY frustrating.

I have been trying to get in touch with Fremont for a week.  Bill sent me a 4.6" sheave instead of the 6.4" one I ordered.  It's evidently got nothing to do with Canada though as I'm in the states.

Listeroid Engines / Re: light bulbs flicker solution.
« on: November 03, 2007, 10:03:27 PM »
I will look at a number of different mounting options once I have the unit in my hot little hands.

I've found my new pickup line.  Wish me luck, fellas.

General Discussion / Re: The Superheavy Armored Walking Tank
« on: December 13, 2006, 05:23:54 PM »
Had to check the calendar (nope not April 1st yet).  Someone has created a practical joke.  There was no such thing as a `walking tank`.  The materials technology didn`t exist to make such a thing either support all that weight on spindly legs, let alone the techniques required to keep such a machine in balance while moving.  Computers and servo control systems were not invented yet that were up to the formidable engineering challenge.

The `walking tank` is a modern invention of the graphics computer and any that appear in historical photos are a creation of photoshop.

Maybe.  There are lots links for its German name though:


The commentary explains that the machine did not in fact work.  It had too much trouble with rough terrain IIRC.

Listeroid Engines / Re: "Kit engines".......where?
« on: December 04, 2006, 06:12:12 AM »
Which manufactures sell kit engines?
The thought of buying a listeroid which hasn't been run (casting sand) and is unpainted is quite attractive.

Does Powerline (Power Anand) produce kits because from what I understand, they seem to be the fore runner in terms of quality (Am I mistaken here?).

I'd imagine any of the Indian assemblers will sell a kit for a price.  I contacted several and found them to be flexible.  I say 'assemblers' because I've heard from two sources now that most of the Listeroid parts are made in just a few factories around Rajkot, and the various Listeroid brands you hear tell of are assemblers and marketers.

Rockymountainpowersource.com (?) sells USA assembled Listeroids.

I don't have any good evidence of any one brand being better than the others, except I believe that this is the dealer Mike Montieth's opinion of the GM-90, a direct injection/alloy piston version of the Listeroid.  I've never heard of GM-90 kits.  There is sometimes huge variation among individual brands.

Be aware that EPA regulations can be extraordinarily onerous for engine manufacturers, which is exactly what you will be if you build an engine from parts.

Listeroid Engines / Re: "Kit engines".......where?
« on: December 02, 2006, 06:30:06 AM »
Are pictures harder to steal with IE than with other browsers?

Listeroid Engines / Re: "Kit engines".......where?
« on: December 01, 2006, 05:50:28 PM »

Someone should tell George that that page has a bunch of black squares where many of your pictures should be.  The problem is that his page is using xmlns (OK) and vml (not OK).  vml is Vector Markup Language and is pretty much -- AFAICT -- a M$/IE-only thing.  Even that's OK, because George's page is testing for vml support:

Code: [Select]
<!--[if gte vml 1]>
  <v:shape id="_x0000_s1049"
  <v:imagedata src="kit_engine2_files/image038.jpg" o:title="Protrusion"/>

<![if !vml]>
    <img border=0 width=576 height=653

[indention is mine, for readability]

The real, final problem is that if vml support is there, his page serves one picture (in the example above, "image038.jpg"), but if vml support is not present (say, Firefox or SeaMonkey browsers), George's page serves an entirely different image, one that renders as a plain, black square (in the example above, "image039.jpg).

Upshot is that I can't see Quinn's pics in the last half of the page, unless I go to extraordinary lengths -- there is not a Windoze box available here.

If you have bash and wget you can download all the images this way:

    for n in `seq -w 1 56`; do wget "http://utterpower.com/beta_tester_files/image0$n.jpg"; done

I'll bet this is part of the problem:

  <meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 6.0">

On the other hand the black images are numbered sequentially among the other images, so maybe FrontPage isn't to blame for creating them.  It's possible though if FP has a bulk image import/convert feature.

General Discussion / Re: Anyone else find Listerenging.com slow?
« on: December 01, 2006, 05:21:32 AM »
As somebody implied above it's the server that hosting listerengine.com that's slow.  It's got nothing to do with your computers or your bandwidth (cable modem, DSL, etc).

I believe user 'rocket' owns the site.

Listeroid Engines / Re: Lister w/ DI and Nat Gas fuel
« on: November 29, 2006, 10:55:43 PM »
The Nat Gas supply and controls for that are a mystery to me.  I know I can't just 'run a hose'.....!  ;D  Where would a guy go to collect the parts for the Nat Gas or Propane equipment required?

For natural gas you will need some or all of the following, depending on what you do exactly.  For carburetion you need a shutoff, otherwise gas will trickle from the carb when the engine's not running.  Most of these are 12V, but if you have a good memory I guess you could use a manual shutoff too.  I don't recommend it.  There's a problem with shutoffs in that it's hard to know when they've failed.  I've heard that some localities require two shutoffs with a pressure switch inbetween to allow testing.

The carburetor has two parts.  First, a mixer, which is a venturi with a membrane and armature that opens a valve more and more as a vacuum builds up in the venturi.  Second the throttle body sits under the mixer, and contains a butterfly valve to let more or less air in.  This can be mechanical, or some places like Woodward sell electronic ones that work in conjunction with a governor.  If you buy a governor then you will also need and MPU or magnetic pickup which tells the governor how fast the flywheel is turning.

Regulators establish a baseline pressure at the carb's intake.  You can typically adjust this up or down a bit to suit your application.  If you're using compressed gas you will need an auxiliary device that prevents the regulator from icing up.

Impco is a well-known supplier of this equipment.  They have PDF's on their website for the capacities of the various parts.  You will want a 55 series carb as these go to 70hp and 115cfm.  Woodward has exactly the same mixers as Impco, but with different names.  There are some other manufacturers as well but I can't think of the names at the moment.

This equipment is sometimes available at your local propane shop, 4x4 shops (offroaders like propane because they can go at any angle without emptying their carb bowls), forklift shops, and of course Ebay.

Lister Based Generators / Re: Over-sizing gen head
« on: November 28, 2006, 03:56:43 AM »
Fuel consumption figures:


Likely these have been handed down from the beginning of time, so I've no idea how accruate they are.

Everything else / Re: Hi!: First Post: Exhaust Smell
« on: November 26, 2006, 06:16:00 AM »
Diesel stinks IMO.  On the other hand the 6/1 burns very little fuel.  You'll definitely smell it on your clothes if you work near the exhaust for long.  I can't see anyone getting up in arms about the smell, but it is at least a slight annoyance.  If you burn vegetable or waste vegetable oil the smell will be similar to being downwind from a McDonalds or its ilk.

The noise and vibration are greater concerns.  You will need to muffle the exhaust, at least with an automotive style muffler, and perhaps a gravel pit.  If you don't mount the engine correctly you can see ripples in water glasses and china rattling in the cupboard, even in the neighbor's house.

Lister Based Generators / Re: generator ratings
« on: November 26, 2006, 01:09:50 AM »
About the heat: is your ceiling insulated well?  Do you have curtains or blinds?  If not those things will help of course.

The complicated part of electrical usage is called load management.  You might use say 2kW per day,  but half of that may occur in a brief time when the well pump starts up once per day (these aren't realistic numbers).  A generator big enough to start your well pump is too big 99% of the time.

One solution is battery banks and inverters.  People with solar and wind power often have these.  Inverters convert DC power to AC.  They can also help with load management.  You could run a tiny generator and/or solar to charge batteries, and draw all your power from the inverters.   Since you have cheap propane you might buy or make a propane generator.  Any gas engine can be converted to propane.

Another strategy is something called 'grid-tie' or net metering.  This is where you maintain your electrical service, but sell some of your power back to the utility.  With this system you don't need a battery bank, but you might need an inverter for syncronizing with the grid AC.  Failing to do so can be catastrophic.  If you burn waste oils or have solar you can save money this way, you might even make money.  The programs vary from state to state.  There's a guy on this forum who was talking about doing this in Connecticut: http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=145.msg3457#msg3457
The downside of this is that you're still dependent on the grid, unless you do set up the battery bank too.

Beware of the consumer grade generators.  They aren't engineered to last very long, and would be a disaster for off grid use.  The ST heads that everyone here buys are far larger and heavier than what you see on the cheap units.  Also these run at 3,600 rpm and are very loud.  Two doors down they have a 3,600 rpm genny.  It's at least 150 yards away and still annoys me to no end.  The Lister 6/1 turns at 650 rpm for 60 hertz, and is by most accounts a pleasant sound.  Engines wear at the square of their RPM.

Good luck!

General Discussion / Re: concrete vs resilient mounting round 2
« on: November 25, 2006, 09:33:47 PM »
You reknowned gunsmiths have to be careful, we're apt to look too deeply into what you're saying.

I thought you meant shivering from pulling a load, not from cold.

I hadn't considered efficiency.  No doubt some of your mini-petter's lost energy translates into stress.

General Discussion / Re: concrete vs resilient mounting round 2
« on: November 25, 2006, 09:06:54 PM »
Does a shivering horse still put full power to the plow?


We are all agreed, I think, that CS's are bound to vibrate, and that vibration can limit the service life of an engine, and that flexible mounts allow the engine to move some.  If you further accept that the engine will move acyclically, and that larger stresses place non-linear damage to metals, then I believe you must also accept that flexible mounts are inferior.

I'm trying to see how your analogy applies to this, but it escapes me.  I'd appreciate an elaboration.

General Discussion / Re: concrete vs resilient mounting round 2
« on: November 25, 2006, 06:10:17 PM »
i am not saying that mounting to concrete is better than any other mount, just as i am not saying that mounting to something else is better than concrete, although
i can make the case that concrete returns and in some cases amplifies the shocks, vibration and stresses imparted upon it back to the engine.

I'll read with interest if you do make this case.

also please note, that even if bolted to a concrete block it is still on a resilient mount albeit a very stiff resilient mount, (unless you cast you crete ontop of a granite bedrock)

you seem to take to the tangent and extremes to support your position

i don't support spring mounting the engine or any engine, and don't know anyone that would
there is such a thing as an engineered resilient mount, that does the isolation thing without allowing the engine to jump around wildly

yes i do believe that vibration can be an issue, in all engines, but i don't believe that a properly balanced engine will exhibit destructive forces no matter how it is mounted.

"And, what if your engine does have a flaw?"

then it will eventually break no matter how it is mounted.

Perhaps the block can extend this beyond service life though.   Of course that's an advantage.

as far as bending forces, if the engine is properly engineered it will handle all these forces internally,

there are very few places within a properly designed engine that exhibit bending forces, rocker arms, the crankshaft, wrist pin being a few
the rockers can and are built heavy enough to last forever
the wrist pin is built large enough to handle the stress without bending
the crankshaft, is sufficiently large in journal diameter to handle the modest power densities

concrete bases have no effect on rocker life, or wrist pin life.

resilient mounts absorb motion, over a range of motion and in doing so slow it down and then return it over an equally slower motion,this effectively absorbs and dissapates as heat much of the energy in the motion/vibration,  as opposed to concrete which being like an anvil returns this motion/shock nearly immediately and with an equal and opposite force and in some instances with an amplification of this force/vibration.

a concrete block is a muffler, a blindfold, a pacifier, it basically masks these forces, it does not absorb them

take your piece of glass and your hammer

hold a concrete block against the glass and strikeit with your hammer, and watch your glass break
now hold a rubber block against your glass and hit the rubber with the hammer,

You don't seem to understand the argument.  The analogy would be, tap the bottle on a block of concrete vs. tap the bottle oscillating on a flexible mount.  The latter is more dangerous.

alternatively, take a piece of strap iron, an anvil and a hammer, beat on the strap iron while it lays on the anvil and you will see it distort readily
now put the strap on a block of wood or hard rubber, and beat on it,,, you will beat yourself silly before you deform it nearly as bad as the anvil
why is this? because the anvil returns the work instantly back to the hammer
why does the hard rubber not work as well? because it absorbs and returns little of the energy of the hammer

Same as above.

now substitute soft metal rod and main brgs for the strap of steel and see what happens

another visual method is the swinging balls, you know the ones, you swing one down and it hits the 5 hanging, the energy from the first is transmitted thru to the last and is returned back thru to the first, if you insert a bit of rubber into the stationary balls the action stops, the energy has been absorbed.

so what does this have to do with the crankshaft you might ask?

the ignition point directs a stress to the crank (diesel knock) this is a relatively fast event, this sharp knock is sent into the mount and returned with the same frequency and intensity if mounted on a concrete base, if mounted on a resilient base this action is not only slowed down but the reaction as well, along with the intensity because of dissapation.

bob g

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