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Topics - Mr Lister

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1
Original Lister Cs Engines / Mr. Lister is back
« on: June 23, 2006, 08:48:03 AM »
Guys,

I have been absent from this forum for a couple of months, mainly due to a change in my employment circumstances, - I am now very busy.

I was also contacted by the Commercial Director of Lister Petter in the UK, and politely asked to remove all references concerning Listeroid engines from my website, else face legal action. 

I complied, and to be on the safe side, took the whole site down, and put it back in a very reduced form.  Lister Petter UK still take a dim view of these unauthorised Indian engines - even 20 years after the last CS was made!

I have got my waste vegetable oil system working now, and I run my 1951 Lister CS 6hp on filtered WVO every day to heat my water.  I use a blowlamp on the high pressure line to warm the fuel for 2 minutes to allow the engine to start from cold on WVO.

best wishes from the UK


Ken


2
Guys,

It's been a busy weekend here.

Yesterday we got a 1948 Startomatic to run as sweet as an old clock, after recutting the valve seats and some careful lapping of the new valves.

Today was spent on my pet project - my 1950 6hp Lister driving a 3kW ST head in a novel axial drive.  We are now making juice ;-)

There is an 80 tooth pulley on the engine shaft and a 32 tooth pulley on the alternator shaft.  They are connected using a Gates polyflex GT3 belt.   I also have a 34 toothe pulley so that I can experiment to get the best speed ratio to extract the most power from the 3kW ST head.

I had to free up the sticking governor, and try a few variations of governor spring/length, but now she runs well and holds reasonably constant frequency.

Lots of experimental work still to be one,  but I have just acquired a 14hp dynamometer  - formerly belonging to the Engineering Lab at Cambridge University. I'll  need a transit van to haul that one off campus.

Looks like its going to be a summer experimenting with waste veg oil and various heat exchangers.


Latest Pictures are on my website as usual:

www.powercubes.com/listers.html     

www.powercubes.com/listers_1.html



Ken


3
Other Slow Speed Diesels / Pair of Original Lister CD Engines for Sale
« on: March 31, 2006, 12:47:04 AM »
Guys,

If you thought the CS was rugged, it's a fairy compared to the Lister  CD industrial engine.  1930's powerhouse.

Here are original scanned Lister data sheets (4 pages)

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Technical/CDP1data.htm

One of opportunity, to purchase a little slice of original UK Lister diesel history.

There are a pair of CD engines available, an if no interest shown on this forum, they will be sold as a pair on ebay UK.

If you are interested, they will be included in the container bound for Houston in the late Fall.

8hp at 1200rpm, ideal generator engine, massive solid flywheels, fully enclosed cam and pushrods.

Peter Forbes engine site describes them as follows:

The CD and CE engines were introduced in the 1930's to fill a need for an industrial engine. The 5/1 and 9/1 engines were already successful when the CD/CE were introduced, but they had a range of options that were not available on the other engines at the time, such as gearboxes and power take-offs, plus a marine engine version of the CE was produced. (The 9/1 went on to become the eventual replacement for the CD/CE and was further developed into the JK and JS engines, available up to 6 cylinders)

The CD was a single cylinder, the CE was a twin cylinder. Other than that, most rotating and reciprocating parts such as gears, pushrods, rockers etc., were common, the crankcases and crankshafts obviously being different. The CE engine had five bearings, two each side and a centre bearing. The CD, unusually, had the two-a-side main bearings, making for a very stiff crankshaft.

Cylinders heads were different, the CE having a double head (the 5/1 and 10/2 used the same barrels and heads) and the injection pump was a BPF2A double unit on the CE while the CD had a standard BPF1. Injectors were the same specification between the engines, making servicing easier.

A wide range of flywheels, radiator or tank cooling and other options were available, most engines found today are from Post Office standby sets or similar applications. A number of variations of the decompression valve are found on these engines, the gen set versions have solenoid operated compression changeover/decompression, while manual start versions have lever operated valves. The block castings are physically different. The engines are heavy and not particularly popular amongst preservationists, but they deserve their place on the rally field, as they went out of production after a relatively short production span.

Some CE twins were assembled and then actually manufactured by Nordberg in the USA during WW2, so a few engines are found in the USA and Canada.

Brief Spec:- Single and twin cylinder water-cooled indirect injection diesel engines, with compression change-over for cold starting. Cast iron block with removable liners, thin wall big end bearings, white metal over brass main bearings. Totally enclosed OHV valve gear, pressure lubrication by gear oil pump located under the from of the engine. Dry sump lubrication was available for marine applications. Tank or radiator cooling was available with a crankshaft driven cooling fan. No water pump was fitted as standard although one was available for special applications.

Bore & Stroke: 4-1/2" X 4-3/8" (both engines)
Listard chromed bores on all engines except the very early types.
Standard flywheels: solid disc type 23" diameter X 3-1/2" face, generating set flywheels available up to 6" face.

Weight (CD) 980lbs without cooling tank.
Weight (CE) 1372 lbs without cooling tank.
Oil capacity 1½ gallons approximately for the CD, 2 gallons approximately for the CE.

Valve clearances 0.005" HOT or 0.008" COLD
Piston ring gap 0.012" to 0.016" at bottom of the bore and square to it.

Injection Pump CD CAV BPF1B70BS61, Element CAV 7009-43, Delivery Valve CAV 7010-188, D/Valve Spring CAV 7032-7
Injection Pump CD CAV BPF2B70B, Element CAV 7009-43, Delivery Valve CAV 7010-188, D/Valve Spring CAV 7032-7
Injector CAV BKB50S507B, Nozzle CAVBDL30S46
Injector setting pressure both engines --- 90 atmospheres or 1325 lbs per square inch


http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Technical/CDP2data.htm
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Technical/CDP3data.htm
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Technical/CDP4data.htm


One engine is a perfect runner, the other is available for spares or repair. Sold as pair -will not split. Best offer around US$ 650 secures the deal. Shipping and handling charges extra.


Any interest?




Ken



4
Listeroid Engines / UK Listeroids and spares arrive - photos
« on: March 28, 2006, 07:56:49 PM »
Guys,

Spent today unwrapping the first of the UK Listeroids.  Photos are here

http://www.powercubes.com/listers_12.html

The engines are 6hp and 12hp single - the brand is fairly obvious from the photos!
 
The 12hp have 26" diameter flywheels - so those clever Indians have added a 2" platform to the bottom of the crankcase so that it sits just like a regular 6/1.
 
Very impressed with the standard.  Each engine comes with a "tool kit" separately packed in a 12" x12" x 8" box  - get this for the standard contents:
 
5 double ended spanners
1 flat blade screwdriver
1 spare head gasket
2 spare crankshaft oil seals
1 set of piston rings
2 main bearing shells
2 spare valves
Instruction manual
Parts manual
Air filter
Exhaust silencer
 
How's that for comprehensive?  If any of the most likely things fails, you have spares with the engine and the tools to fix it! Cool!
 
Anybody needing Lister CS/ Listeroid parts in the UK/Europe should contact Mark Walker,

j.mark.walker@gmail.com

he's got enough kit there to completely rebuild at least half a dozen Listers.
 
Lots of nice starting handles too - Thanks Mark ;-)

If we bought enough original Lister crankcases and flywheels with serial numbers dating from the 1940s/50s and rebuilt the top end with new Indian parts where needed - would they sneak in under the EPA radar.  Date of Manufacture 1950  - that would make them freak ;-)

All the usual commercial disclaimers apply -blah, blah.


 
 
Ken

5
Original Lister Cs Engines / Lister Engine Activities in the UK
« on: March 25, 2006, 01:39:10 PM »
Guys,

I have updated my Lister website to give an update on the activities happening over here in the UK.

There are now about 10 pages, featuring pictures of the engines I have encountered or worked on in the last 12 months.

Some of the links and formatting is still a little flaky (thankyou Yahoo Sitebuilder) but the main page can be found here

www.powercubes.com/listers.html


regards,


Ken



6
Original Lister Cs Engines / Restoring Original Lister Engines
« on: March 22, 2006, 10:11:40 PM »
Guys,

On Sunday I met Simon Wass who is restoring a 3.5 hp Lister CS engine.

He has access to sand blasting equipment, and certainly put it to good use.

Check out his photo site for the recent progress. In particular the quality of the flywheel castings after sandblasting


http://simon-wass.fotopic.net/c755015_25.html


Some recent photos of the UK activites are on my website:

www.powercubes.com/listers.html



regards,



Ken


7
Listeroid Engines / UK Listeroids!
« on: March 14, 2006, 07:35:55 PM »
Guys,

Ten shiny new Listeroids arrive in the UK on Thursday from India 6hp to 12hp singles, shortly to be followed by 18 assorted sizes of Chinese ST alternator   3KW to 7.5KW.

Whilst this may sound like "selling snow to the Eskimos"  or "coals to Newcastle", there is a healthy demand for these engines over here.

The flip side of this is that I am putting together a plan to ship 10 or 12 (maybe more) original Lister engines to the US sometime in the fall.



Regards,


Ken

London





8
General Discussion / Six stroke, steam assisted Listeroid???
« on: March 04, 2006, 08:10:15 PM »
Guys,

Got sent this link describing Bruce Crower's 6 stroke engine

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060224/FREE/60222004/1024

Basically he adds a steam expansion and exhaust stroke AFTER the normal 4 stroke cycle.

The expanding steam removes the bulk of the heat from the cylinder and exhaust.  Remember that in a diesel 1/3 of the fuel energy heats the block and 1/3 ends up in the exhaust.

He claims 40% fuel improvement in fuel consumption and incredibly cool running - all the waste heat ends up in the steamy exhaust.

Bruce Crower is no young upstart - he has been developing cams and engine technology since the late 1940s.


How could this work for us in a Listeroid?  Well remove the idler gear and run the camshaft at 1/3rd engine rpm or alternatively put a timing pulley on the crankshaft and resort to an overhead camshaft run at 1/3rd engine rpm.

The beauty of the Listeroid is that you could squirt the steam into the engine via the compression change valve port.


Think, Induction, Compression, Power, Exhaust, Expansion, Exhaust - that's 6 by my count.

You could use the existing water jacket as a hot well, and take it up to about 95 C, then a monotube boiler coil around the exhaust to boil the water and an external monotube steam super heater.  The existing cam-shaft could be used to drive a feed pump and the injector pump could be used to spray fuel oil into an external burner for the steam superheater.

He even suggests that you could skip the normal IC exhaust stroke and keep the exhaust valve closed - recompressing the exhaust gases, then admit the steam for the steam power stroke.  A final exhaust stroke purges all the steam and exhaust and cleans the cylinder and exhaust of carbon and crap.


Any takers,


Ken






9
Listeroid Engines / Exhaust gas temperature?
« on: March 03, 2006, 03:58:59 PM »
Guys,

Could someone who has a Listeroid running on nearly full load, and a temperature probe handy, please give me some indication of the exhaust gas temperature (EGT), close to the manifold.

Any other weblinks to typical, non-turbo EGT measurements would be of interest.


Thanks in advance,


Ken

10
Listeroid Engines / Energy in 6/1 flywheels
« on: February 11, 2006, 06:15:30 PM »
List,

One of the reasons why the Listeroid makes such a good generator engine, is because there is considerable energy stored in the flywheels. There are about 90lbs in just the rims of the spoked flywheels, and the old Startomatic had nearly 3 times this amount.

When you turn on a big electrical load, the stored energy is converted to electrical energy and assuming that the generator head has enough overload capability the motor can be started.

On Friday I went to the local car-wash to get the Lister-Gen and its trailer jet-washed as it has been a bit muddy around here.

The car wash crew had never seen a Lister, (being from Eastern Europe, Poland and Russia), and were all over it asking questions.

The boss approached me and asked some questions about the Lister and said that he would like to buy one. He had recently bought a very cheap 3kW Chinese gen-set, and was dismayed to discover that it died every time he tried to turn on the jet-wash.

From my measurements and calculations, a pair of standard spoked flywheels running at 650 rpm have a kinetic energy of about  13,500 Joules.

If you turned on a big load and the engine slowed from 650 rpm to 600 rpm, then 2000 joules would be absorbed by the alternator.

If this all happened in 2 seconds, then the alternator would supply it's usual 3kW plus an additional 1kW for those 2 seconds.

Sure you would lose your frequency regulation, but worse stuff happens.

Have any members got any experiences of starting big loads? If so how big,  and using what engine and gen-head?

Is this 125% figure for a 3kW load about right?


Ken



 

11
Listeroid Engines / An overhead cam Listeroid??
« on: February 01, 2006, 04:53:57 PM »
Guys,

Just got back from the auto parts store where I noticed a manual on Diesel engine
servicing.  It covers most of the popular European models and describes the
modern fuel injection systems in fairly good detail, with cross sectional drawings.

Of particular interest was the Volkswagen Audi Group  "Pump Duse"  which from the German
means "pump injector".   Here the injector has the pump built into the top of
it and it is driven by a rocker off the cam shaft all on top of the cylinder
head.

This system of combining the high pressure pump with the injector has been
used for a while in larger diesel engines and also smaller aircooleds, but I
think VAG are the first to use it for car engines.  Sometimes this
arrangement was called a unit injector and cheaper to make and fit than
separate devices, with no high pressure line to connect between them.

Of key interest is the fact that the timing of the injection event or
multiple events is controlled by an electromagnetic solenoid which activates
the injection nozzle.  This way the EMU can control the exact timing of each
cylinder depending on the load and the emissions etc etc.

The book also stated that the effect of compressing the fuel to 20,000 psi
in the pump duse, raised its temperature so significantly that frequently a
fuel cooler had to be used (underneath the car) before the fuel could be
returned safely to the plastic fuel tank.

So imagine a Listeroido with a new cast aluminium / cast iron head, with a timing belt
driven overhead cam which worked both valves and the new pump duse (from a
VW dealer).  A simple EMU is made from a microcontroller to sense the
flywheel position and the load, and control the magnitude and profile of the
injection.

The veg oil is automatically heated by the pump process.

The engines in the new VW Golf TDI and Jetta/Passat are exceptional in terms
of torque and fuel consumption.  Could perhaps the introduction of some modern
fuel injection and valve gear improve the fuel economy and reduce emissions on
the Listeroid?


Any thoughts?



Ken

12
Original Lister Cs Engines / Shipping Original Engines to USA
« on: January 23, 2006, 07:09:19 PM »
List,

I have had a couple of enquiries about shipping original Lister engines to the USA (East coast), and elsewhere.

Initial quotes from online shipping agents suggest that this would cost between $500 and $1000 for a single engine.   :(

Shipping costs are by volume rather than weight, so there is the option of putting two or more engines in a crate, to reduce costs.

Below is a typical quote, I would be interested to hear from anyone who knows how to ship overseas more economically.

Original Listers appear on ebay over here every month and sell for around $500 for an engine in reasonable condition.


Ken




Group #1:
Calculation Based On Goods of Size    96cm x 72cm x 112cm

Total Cubic Meters 0.77 CBM / Total Gross Weight 903.89 lb or 410 kgs.

Quantity : 1 

PARTICULARS VALUE RATE AMOUNT
Freight          (For New York Min 1 CBM) 1 CBM $55.00 $55.00 
Bill of Lading     $50.00
Forwading Fees     $145.00
Terminal Transfer 410 kgs $0.02 $8.20
Origin Receiving Charges 1 CBM $65.00 $65.00 
Bunker Adjustment Factor     $11.00
Security Fees     $40.00
GRI Charges 1 CBM $25.00 $25.00 
AMS Filing Fee     $30.00
DAD Fees     $85.00
Pickup Charges                (11 - 50 Miles)     $145.00
Customs Clearance     $185.00
Residential Pickup Surcharge     $125.00
Insurance Charges
         ( Type Of Goods : Industrial Goods )     $35.00 


Total US $1,004.20


13
Original Lister Cs Engines / Rebuilding a 1951 Lister CS 6hp
« on: January 22, 2006, 05:12:32 PM »
Guys,

This week I have been rebuilding an engine I bought last February which had a leaky exhaust valve and some fuel injection problems.

Here is a brief account of how I got it running again.

This weekend I have rebuilt the valve gear on a 1951 Lister CS 6/1 by
fitting new valve guides, valve springs and lapping in the two new valves
with grinding paste.

I was a little concerned about the exhaust valve still leaking a bit of
compression, but this has now settled down and a reasonable amount of
compression has been restored.

I had the same problem with my injector pump as Andy was experiencing.  It
was pumping fuel to the injector, but without sufficient pressure to fire
the injector.

After consulting fellow enthusiasts on the stationary engine list, I was
advised to undo the fuel delivery pipe on the top of the injector pump and
check that the delivery valve was working correctly.

On unscrewing the top "nut" from the injector pump and watching out so as
not to lose the spring, I saw the top of the delivery valve which looks a
bit like a bowler hat.   It is located in the centre of a cylindrical
chamber into which the nut screws.  This chamber is normally full of high
pressure fuel and the delivery valve opens with the rising fuelpressure as
th pump plunger rises, and then snaps shut unter the action of the spring.

The delivery valve has to be free to move up and down by about 1/8" inorder
to work correctly.  Mine was stuck in the up position, allowing fuel to
leave the pump when the plunger was pushed in, but also flow back when the
plunger retracted.

The solution to my problem was to free the delivery valve by tapping it
downwards VERY GENTLY with a mandrel made from a short length of small bore
tube. (Microbore copper would probaby do).  The valve had seized in the open
postition and neededa couple of gentle taps to get it to loosen off.  This
could be assisted by soaking the valve and the delivery chamber overnight in
WD40.

Once free, the valve pops up with the plunger pressure and sinks downwards
as the plunger retracts.

To test the injector, I removed it from the cylinder head and laid it on top
of the head and facing away from me.

(VERY IMPORTANT - this injector will shoot toxic diesel fuel about 4 feet
distance at 110 atmospheres of pressure - it would instantly blind you if
you got it in the eye, and will even inject fuel into your skin if you get
in the way. It will continue to shoot fuel at this pressure even if the
flywheel is turning very clowly or just over the injection point - TAKE
CARE!)

I reconnected the high pressure fuel deliver pipe and turned the engine
over several times. After about 40 revolutions,  the injector fired a good
spray of fuel, and closed with a satisfying creak sound.

Now that I had fixed my fuel problem, I was keen to crank the engine over an
get it to run.

It had no air cleaner, no exhaust pipe or muffler, and the diesel was
temporarily rigged up in a 1 litre bottle sitting on topof the fuel filter
and wired to the cylinder head.

After a few starting attemptsit gave a couple of grey smokey puffs from the
exhaust port.

We then got a small propane torch and held the flame about 6" from the inlet
port. This was enough to preheat the combustion air, but not so close that
the engine only sucked in burnt propane fumes (CO2 and H20).   After about 3
minutes of gentle warming and turning the engine over - decompressed,  with
the starting handle we got it to start.  The first real power stroke blew
out a lot of soot into my helper's face, and I man-handled the fuel pump
rack to maintain a reasonable constant rpm, because this engine was lacking
the governor spring.

I noted that it was quite responsive to the position of the rack, and
pulling out the rack a little was accompanied by a few very loud power
strokes and sparks of burning carbon shooting out of the open exhaust port!

After about 5 minutes of playing the throttle, I shut the engine off,
because I had been running it without coolant, and the old oil in the sump
was less than adequate for continued running.

Chuffed to bits!


Ken

14
Listeroid Engines / Give this Lister Forum the publicity it deserves!
« on: January 16, 2006, 12:39:07 AM »
Guys,

You have a great forum here, but it is difficult to find.

Even if you can find www.listeroid.com on Google*  you then have to find "cool links" and it is then the 11th item on the list, almost as an afterthought.

May I humbly make the suggestion that you put a great big clickable button link at the top of the listeroid.com home page so that newbies can see it.

Then ask others to put the same button their pages.   I would be happy to put it on any of my pages or groups.


* Type in listeroid into google and you will not see www.listeroid.com on the first page of items - time to remedy this.



Ken




15
Listeroid Engines / Listeroid Register
« on: January 15, 2006, 02:02:25 PM »
Hi list,

Now that the Listeroids are becoming popular, might it be worthwhile compiling a register of exactly what engines are out there.

No need to give personal details, just the name of the manufacturer and model number, brief spec (hp and single or twin cylinder), serial number if known,  the supplier, and date of installation, and any other relevant details.

This way we can see what are the most common makes, which to avoid, and also be able to locate others who share the same model.

A colleague of mine is now importing engines into the UK, and I would be interested to see the progress of the "Listeroid way of life" in the US and elesewhere.


regards,


Ken




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