1
Things I want to Buy / Witte CD parts wanted
« on: July 07, 2014, 04:38:24 AM »
Hi everyone. Just like the title says..... anyone got Witte CD diesel parts laying around? Thanks!
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2
Other Slow Speed Diesels / Witte CD generator project
« on: July 07, 2014, 03:23:41 AM »
I picked up a Witte CD engine with the generator base. It's going to be my next project and will probably end up similar to the Lister generator I built for my parents.
This CD had very poor compression, most leaking out of the valves, so I took the head off to have a look. It needs new valves and guides. The cylinder liner has about ten thousandths of wear, so I need a new liner or have this one re sleeved. The wrist pin and bushing have just a tiny bit of play, so they need to get replaced too. In my search for parts, I found another running CD engine on generator base and some used parts. I'll be picking those up at the end of this month. The used parts aren't much better than the ones I already have in my engine, but they are still worth having.
I'm going to rebuild both engines. I've contacting David Johnson at Arrow and he said he had no parts left, only the manual on CD. Anybody out there got any parts for these they want to get rid of? I don't expect to find any liners, so I will probably get all three of my sleeves re-sleeved, one for each engine and one for a spare. I can make new rod bearings (although I don't plan to since they last forever), wrist pins and bushings, and valve guides. Finding new valves should not be too hard since I can cut them down myself with my lathe.
Thanks for any parts leads!
This CD had very poor compression, most leaking out of the valves, so I took the head off to have a look. It needs new valves and guides. The cylinder liner has about ten thousandths of wear, so I need a new liner or have this one re sleeved. The wrist pin and bushing have just a tiny bit of play, so they need to get replaced too. In my search for parts, I found another running CD engine on generator base and some used parts. I'll be picking those up at the end of this month. The used parts aren't much better than the ones I already have in my engine, but they are still worth having.
I'm going to rebuild both engines. I've contacting David Johnson at Arrow and he said he had no parts left, only the manual on CD. Anybody out there got any parts for these they want to get rid of? I don't expect to find any liners, so I will probably get all three of my sleeves re-sleeved, one for each engine and one for a spare. I can make new rod bearings (although I don't plan to since they last forever), wrist pins and bushings, and valve guides. Finding new valves should not be too hard since I can cut them down myself with my lathe.
Thanks for any parts leads!
3
Lister Based Generators / Fully automatic lister startomatic-based generator
« on: June 03, 2014, 04:35:27 AM »
My winter project is finally done. This started as a pretty much all-original Lister Startomatic generator set. It started up and ran when I first got it, but the valves and guides were pretty worn so I took the head off. I found a piece had chipped out of the chrome cylinder lining at the very top of the top ring travel some time in its past and one of the main bearings had a little slop, so I decided to just do a full rebuild. I got a full spare parts kit from Central Main Diesel (Thanks for the great service!) and replaced the cylinder, piston, rings, gaskets, complete head, injector and pump, and the wrist pin bushing. I got main bearings, felt seals and generator brushes from stationaryengineparts.uk. The generator bearings were noisy so they got replaced and the commutator was turned in the lathe. The slip rings just needed to be polished up, but they are not even in use. The slip ring brushes are held off the slip rings by steel wire since I'm not using the generator portion.
The air filter is an oil bath type from an International Harvester power unit and the exact same as they used on their tractors. The generator is a brushless 8.2 KW from Central Georgia Generator. I tried a ST-5 first. There was a problem with that generator, but Tom took care of me and we worked out a deal to upgrade to this generator. Central Georgia Generator and Central Main Diesel are great to deal with. Since I don't want my parents to have to mess with lubricating the valves, I put a Madison Kipp type SVK automatic lubricator on it. It puts about one drop per minute on each valve. It drips on the very end of the rocker arm so the whole valve gets lubricated. The rockers are lubricated by grease, with wicks tied on both sides of each one to wick additional oil to the rocker arm shaft. Thanks to Mike Monteith for that idea! There is a drain on the side of the head just in case the lubricator ever delivers too much oil, but so far, the oil does not accumulate enough to even fill the spring cavities all the way. The fuel is pumped from the main tank to the auxiliary tank by a gear type pump and the water pump is a Jabsco rubber impeller pump. They are mounted in a tray with a drain to the Rotella container hanging on the generator to contain any leakage. I replaced the packing seals on the lubricator, but I know they are going to leak some small amount some day and I don't want that getting on the belts or making a mess in general. The fuel pump also leaks just a tiny bit past its packing and there are shields to collect any leakage from the lubricator and the fuel pump drive shafts. The drain from the head also empties into that container. In all my testing there was never enough leakage to get anything in the container.
The cooling system uses a small radiator I got off Ebay and a small 120 volt fan that are mounted outside the shed above the muffler. I added a galvanized sheet metal cover after the video to protect it from the weather. It lifts off easily to add coolant. There are two thermostatic switches mounted in the box on the engine, one controls the fan and the other is for overheat shut down. The tachometer doesn't work because it was defective from the start and the replacement didn't arrive in time for the install. I'll fix that when I go back to Salt Lake next time.
The muffler is the typical propane tank type. I buried it because the sound of the exhaust going through it is pretty noisy actually. Now it's totally quiet. The exhaust comes out of the engine, goes through sheet metal on the shed wall, through the propane tank, and out a 24 foot tall stack. The bottom of the stack is sealed only by resting on the dirt, so rain will go into the dirt instead of into the propane tank. The propane tank also has a hole in the bottom to let out any moisture. The exhaust noise is zero until it gets a good load, then it's still pretty quiet.
The shed is in their back yard and the whole thing had to go around the house on the grass with a hand dolly. I took each flywheel, each generator, the base, the sub base for the added generator, and the engine itself back there separately and then put it all together. It is anchored to the concrete floor with six 5/8 inch concrete anchors. The sub base is two pieces of 2x2x0.25 inch square steel tubing with a 24x24x0.25 inch piece of plate steel welded on the end with additional tubing between to make the plate higher for belt clearance. There are four 5/8 inch bolts going all the way through the tubing with the heads welded to the tubing on the bottom to hold the original base to the square tubing and six flanges welded to the tubing for the anchor bolts. It doesn't move one tiny bit except for some minor vibration. The fuel tubing itself shakes a little from the pulsing fuel being sucked in and out of the injection pump, but that isn't from engine vibration. The fuel tubing is set up to self-bleed any air in the system. There is a constant flow of really tiny bubbles coming from the injection pump. I'm not too sure if that's normal, but this fuel tubing arrangement takes care of it and makes bleeding the fuel system very easy. I kept checking all the connections and they are good and tight. No fuel leaks out, so I don't see how air is getting in. There is a fuel shut off solenoid near the pump that's powered by the same circuit as the decompression solenoid. It's rated at 24 volts, but the coil got really hot after a while so I put it on that circuit and now it's fine.
I designed and built the control system. I wish I got a video of the start up, but I forgot to do that. It took all the time I had just to get it installed and I was exhausted by the end of it all. I'll put up a bunch of pictures in the gallery. The heart of the system is five delay relays. The first is for the glow plug (about 20 seconds), second for the starter motor (10 seconds), third for the delay between full power and low power for the decompression and fuel shut off solenoids (5 seconds), fourth for the main power contactor (60 seconds), and fifth for the delay between overload and automatic shutdown (currently 40 seconds). They are all 5 amp max so most only control 40 amp relays with more robust contacts. It has automatic shut down for overheating, overload for too long, low fuel, and low oil. There are separate breakers for each on the panel. The breakers are just solenoids that push switches and shut the whole thing down. The solenoids and the relays that control them have capacitors to provide additional power to completely move the switch once power is cut. Diodes prevent the power from the capacitors from back feeding into the rest of the panel. The six red lights are to indicate why it shut down, one for each breaker, one for the emergency stops, and one for the DC fuse. The red light on top is the overload alarm. The two red lights above the six are an extra overload alarm and low fuel alarm. They flash on and off and sound like a smoke detector, but not as ear-piercing loud as a smoke detector. The knob is for the large variable resistor to adjust how much current flows through the decompression and fuel shut off solenoids. The original resistor in the startomatic controls was 12 ohms and this one is set at about the same resistance for a total of about 1.5 running amps in the whole DC control circuit. The main panel has the typical volt/amp gauges, one for each leg, frequency gauge, and DC voltage and amp gauges. The DC circuit is powered by a Jopler-Schauer 7 amp 3 stage automatic 24 volt battery charger. It maintains the circuit at about 27 volts. There is a 50 amp 3 pole contactor to connect the generator power to the house 60 seconds after the decompression solenoid engages.
There is an additional control panel inside the house so the generator can be controlled from there. I forgot to get a picture of that panel. It's much smaller, only 8x8 inches and has overload alarms on top. I had fun with that alarm: it's a combination of a revolving red light with it's own electronic siren (same as in the shed) and a small mechanical siren. The mechanical siren is just steady tone, but it's still pretty cool. The mechanical siren is really loud so I added a volume control knob to reduce the speed/noise level to something that won't give my parents a heart attack. There is also a low fuel alarm on the house panel that's the same type as in the shed (beeping/flashing red light). An "automatic start enabled" switch and amber light is on the house panel too, which turns on the amber light on the main control panel to let anyone down there know it may start any time by itself. The automatic starting isn't enabled yet because my parents didn't want to invest in an automatic transfer switch until next year. My parents have central air conditioning and exterior security lighting and both are disabled any time the generator is producing power, the central air because there isn't enough power and the security lights just to save power for other things, about 400 watts. The wiring for the automatic starting is also there and ready for an automatic transfer switch, then it will be fully automated: power goes out, lister starts then the power magically comes back on about a minute later. The house panel has one red "fault" light that comes on any time any of the six red lights in the shed come on. Both panels have an emergency stop and the main on/off switch.
Here are some videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US7xA7ElJZc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqFdhQjBKQE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-k4WlX2vQs
The air filter is an oil bath type from an International Harvester power unit and the exact same as they used on their tractors. The generator is a brushless 8.2 KW from Central Georgia Generator. I tried a ST-5 first. There was a problem with that generator, but Tom took care of me and we worked out a deal to upgrade to this generator. Central Georgia Generator and Central Main Diesel are great to deal with. Since I don't want my parents to have to mess with lubricating the valves, I put a Madison Kipp type SVK automatic lubricator on it. It puts about one drop per minute on each valve. It drips on the very end of the rocker arm so the whole valve gets lubricated. The rockers are lubricated by grease, with wicks tied on both sides of each one to wick additional oil to the rocker arm shaft. Thanks to Mike Monteith for that idea! There is a drain on the side of the head just in case the lubricator ever delivers too much oil, but so far, the oil does not accumulate enough to even fill the spring cavities all the way. The fuel is pumped from the main tank to the auxiliary tank by a gear type pump and the water pump is a Jabsco rubber impeller pump. They are mounted in a tray with a drain to the Rotella container hanging on the generator to contain any leakage. I replaced the packing seals on the lubricator, but I know they are going to leak some small amount some day and I don't want that getting on the belts or making a mess in general. The fuel pump also leaks just a tiny bit past its packing and there are shields to collect any leakage from the lubricator and the fuel pump drive shafts. The drain from the head also empties into that container. In all my testing there was never enough leakage to get anything in the container.
The cooling system uses a small radiator I got off Ebay and a small 120 volt fan that are mounted outside the shed above the muffler. I added a galvanized sheet metal cover after the video to protect it from the weather. It lifts off easily to add coolant. There are two thermostatic switches mounted in the box on the engine, one controls the fan and the other is for overheat shut down. The tachometer doesn't work because it was defective from the start and the replacement didn't arrive in time for the install. I'll fix that when I go back to Salt Lake next time.
The muffler is the typical propane tank type. I buried it because the sound of the exhaust going through it is pretty noisy actually. Now it's totally quiet. The exhaust comes out of the engine, goes through sheet metal on the shed wall, through the propane tank, and out a 24 foot tall stack. The bottom of the stack is sealed only by resting on the dirt, so rain will go into the dirt instead of into the propane tank. The propane tank also has a hole in the bottom to let out any moisture. The exhaust noise is zero until it gets a good load, then it's still pretty quiet.
The shed is in their back yard and the whole thing had to go around the house on the grass with a hand dolly. I took each flywheel, each generator, the base, the sub base for the added generator, and the engine itself back there separately and then put it all together. It is anchored to the concrete floor with six 5/8 inch concrete anchors. The sub base is two pieces of 2x2x0.25 inch square steel tubing with a 24x24x0.25 inch piece of plate steel welded on the end with additional tubing between to make the plate higher for belt clearance. There are four 5/8 inch bolts going all the way through the tubing with the heads welded to the tubing on the bottom to hold the original base to the square tubing and six flanges welded to the tubing for the anchor bolts. It doesn't move one tiny bit except for some minor vibration. The fuel tubing itself shakes a little from the pulsing fuel being sucked in and out of the injection pump, but that isn't from engine vibration. The fuel tubing is set up to self-bleed any air in the system. There is a constant flow of really tiny bubbles coming from the injection pump. I'm not too sure if that's normal, but this fuel tubing arrangement takes care of it and makes bleeding the fuel system very easy. I kept checking all the connections and they are good and tight. No fuel leaks out, so I don't see how air is getting in. There is a fuel shut off solenoid near the pump that's powered by the same circuit as the decompression solenoid. It's rated at 24 volts, but the coil got really hot after a while so I put it on that circuit and now it's fine.
I designed and built the control system. I wish I got a video of the start up, but I forgot to do that. It took all the time I had just to get it installed and I was exhausted by the end of it all. I'll put up a bunch of pictures in the gallery. The heart of the system is five delay relays. The first is for the glow plug (about 20 seconds), second for the starter motor (10 seconds), third for the delay between full power and low power for the decompression and fuel shut off solenoids (5 seconds), fourth for the main power contactor (60 seconds), and fifth for the delay between overload and automatic shutdown (currently 40 seconds). They are all 5 amp max so most only control 40 amp relays with more robust contacts. It has automatic shut down for overheating, overload for too long, low fuel, and low oil. There are separate breakers for each on the panel. The breakers are just solenoids that push switches and shut the whole thing down. The solenoids and the relays that control them have capacitors to provide additional power to completely move the switch once power is cut. Diodes prevent the power from the capacitors from back feeding into the rest of the panel. The six red lights are to indicate why it shut down, one for each breaker, one for the emergency stops, and one for the DC fuse. The red light on top is the overload alarm. The two red lights above the six are an extra overload alarm and low fuel alarm. They flash on and off and sound like a smoke detector, but not as ear-piercing loud as a smoke detector. The knob is for the large variable resistor to adjust how much current flows through the decompression and fuel shut off solenoids. The original resistor in the startomatic controls was 12 ohms and this one is set at about the same resistance for a total of about 1.5 running amps in the whole DC control circuit. The main panel has the typical volt/amp gauges, one for each leg, frequency gauge, and DC voltage and amp gauges. The DC circuit is powered by a Jopler-Schauer 7 amp 3 stage automatic 24 volt battery charger. It maintains the circuit at about 27 volts. There is a 50 amp 3 pole contactor to connect the generator power to the house 60 seconds after the decompression solenoid engages.
There is an additional control panel inside the house so the generator can be controlled from there. I forgot to get a picture of that panel. It's much smaller, only 8x8 inches and has overload alarms on top. I had fun with that alarm: it's a combination of a revolving red light with it's own electronic siren (same as in the shed) and a small mechanical siren. The mechanical siren is just steady tone, but it's still pretty cool. The mechanical siren is really loud so I added a volume control knob to reduce the speed/noise level to something that won't give my parents a heart attack. There is also a low fuel alarm on the house panel that's the same type as in the shed (beeping/flashing red light). An "automatic start enabled" switch and amber light is on the house panel too, which turns on the amber light on the main control panel to let anyone down there know it may start any time by itself. The automatic starting isn't enabled yet because my parents didn't want to invest in an automatic transfer switch until next year. My parents have central air conditioning and exterior security lighting and both are disabled any time the generator is producing power, the central air because there isn't enough power and the security lights just to save power for other things, about 400 watts. The wiring for the automatic starting is also there and ready for an automatic transfer switch, then it will be fully automated: power goes out, lister starts then the power magically comes back on about a minute later. The house panel has one red "fault" light that comes on any time any of the six red lights in the shed come on. Both panels have an emergency stop and the main on/off switch.
Here are some videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US7xA7ElJZc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqFdhQjBKQE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-k4WlX2vQs
4
Lister Based Generators / Thank you to Tom at Central Georgia Generator
« on: May 14, 2014, 03:20:26 AM »
I want to give a public thank you to Tom at Central Georgia Generator for his excellent customer service. He takes care of his customers. If you need a generator, I would not hesitate in the slightest to recommend buying from Tom.
5
Lister Market Place (things for Sale) / Witte CD generator for sale
« on: February 11, 2014, 03:03:41 AM »
I have a Witte generator set, running with new injector and injection pump for sale. It's just north of the border of Vermont in Canada. 3500 obo
6
Lister Based Generators / Startomatic operation mystery
« on: January 15, 2014, 02:06:06 AM »
Howdy all. I'm working on an original startomatic generator set for my parents. I decided to design and build my own control circuit for the generator set that has more functionality than the original controls. I decided to compare my design with the original design to see if it would give me any ideas for how to improve mine and it reveled a total mystery when I examined the schematic and operational description. An original plant starts cranking with the starter motor when a load is detected. There is a delay between the time the starter motor begins cranking and when the fuel control solenoid engages to free the fuel rack and withdraw the decompression pin. According to the schematic, which can be seen with the following link, the starter motor contactor and the fuel control solenoid are both powered by the same circuit. Contact P/2 closes and completes the circuit for both simultaneously.
http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk/ListerData/SOMMan23.htm
Nothing explains the delay that can readily be seen in the following video. The click can easily be heard and the movement of the solenoid can actually be seen at the same time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT_exyuLSpk
What gives? Does anyone knows what causes this delay? My design has a delay incorporated for the FCS as well as other things. Mine is all torn apart right now so I can't find the cause until I get it put back together. That will be a while.
http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk/ListerData/SOMMan23.htm
Nothing explains the delay that can readily be seen in the following video. The click can easily be heard and the movement of the solenoid can actually be seen at the same time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT_exyuLSpk
What gives? Does anyone knows what causes this delay? My design has a delay incorporated for the FCS as well as other things. Mine is all torn apart right now so I can't find the cause until I get it put back together. That will be a while.
7
General Discussion / Membership to microgen forum?
« on: January 09, 2014, 01:29:46 AM »
How does one go about getting an account approved there? I registered over a month ago and still no approval.
8
Original Lister Cs Engines / Startomatic flywheel weight
« on: December 09, 2013, 02:51:17 AM »
I have a startomatic all apart and just for fun today I weighed the flywheels. This is a 2.5kva 6/1 startomatic. I've read several differing posts about the weight, but here's what my bathroom scale says:
The generator flywheel weighs 80 pounds.
The engine flywheel with the belt grooves weighs 260 pounds.
The engine flywheel without the grooves weighs 275 pounds.
The generator flywheel weighs 80 pounds.
The engine flywheel with the belt grooves weighs 260 pounds.
The engine flywheel without the grooves weighs 275 pounds.
9
Listeroid Engines / Central Maine Diesel any good?
« on: December 07, 2013, 03:46:43 AM »
Hi everybody. One of the startomatic sets that were for sale in Utah has found its way to my garage. After tearing it down for inspection, it was found that it needs a new cylinder. I'm just going to rebuild the whole thing. Central Main Diesel has a rebuild kit for 499, 553 with a new lube oil pump. The sleeve bearings, seals, and a few other parts are already ordered from stationaryengineparts.com. I was going to order the parts from justliveoffgrid.com, but the total is significantly cheaper from CMD. Anyone have dealings with them?
Also, I'm throwing around the idea of using 12/1 replacement parts for a power boost. My parents power needs are going to max the 6/1 out pretty good and they live at 4600 feet elevation. The additional displacement would make up for the elevation plus an additional 15%. I don't think the extra 15% stress will create any problems.
I appreciate any feedback. Thanks!
Also, I'm throwing around the idea of using 12/1 replacement parts for a power boost. My parents power needs are going to max the 6/1 out pretty good and they live at 4600 feet elevation. The additional displacement would make up for the elevation plus an additional 15%. I don't think the extra 15% stress will create any problems.
I appreciate any feedback. Thanks!
10
Lister Based Generators / Best place to buy a generator head?
« on: December 01, 2013, 01:27:54 AM »
I'm building a startomatic generator for my parents. I'm going to add a 5kw generator head to a startomatic generator set to get the 240 split phase power. Where is the best place to buy a 5 kw generator head? I can get a basic ST head from ebay for about 500 shipped, but it has no AVR. It has got to be reliable because once I get it set up, they are going to rely on it and I live 400 miles away. I know the bearings that come in a ST head are not the best, but at least they are sealed now. Should I just plan on replacing the bearings and the rectifier?
11
Lister Market Place (things for Sale) / Startomatics in Utah
« on: October 26, 2013, 07:57:23 PM »
I'm interested in buying just the electrics from the VA startomatic that's for sale in Utah. I'd pay 1100 for the electrics, leaving the base and engine for 3000 if anybody is interested. It seems to be a really nice unit. http://www.ebay.com/itm/171142971594
12
Listeroid Engines / Listeroid 18/1 actual power and the math
« on: October 21, 2013, 02:16:11 AM »
I've been contemplating the listeroid 18/1 power relative to displacement and rpm. The displacement is 1.5 times that of the 6/1. The rpm is 1.53 times that of the 6/1. Multiply these factors by the original 6 hp, and we get 13.5 hp, far from 18. This assumes that the torque is linear between 650 and 1000 rpm, and the torque is directly proportional to displacement. There will also be a tiny increase from direct injection, so let's say theoretical hp is actually 14 at 1000 rpm. What does everyone else think?
13
Other Slow Speed Diesels / Here is a video you all may enjoy....
« on: January 11, 2007, 06:13:03 AM »
This is a clip of an 160 hp, two cylinder, antique Tangye diesel engine at the Internal Fire Museum in England. It's the coolest video clip I've ever seen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6seReCKRLA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6seReCKRLA
14
Listeroid Engines / Anyone have a cylinder mysteriously rust?
« on: May 12, 2006, 03:48:40 AM »
The liner on my 6/1 rusted. 
WTH? I think maybe some coolant got in there and caused it, but I don't know. I took it apart because I had coolant coming out the top of the cylinder studs. It wasn't a big leak, but the top of the nuts got covered with coolant after a day or so after wiping them off. It also started to slobber oil out the exhaust and it didn't do that at first. I pulled the head and found that the liner is rusted. It is worse at the top, then tapers back to almost no rust at the middle of the liner (top of the piston when the piston is all the way down in the stroke). It's getting a new liner, piston, rings, head gasket, blah blah.... This sucks though. Has anyone else seen this?
WTH? I think maybe some coolant got in there and caused it, but I don't know. I took it apart because I had coolant coming out the top of the cylinder studs. It wasn't a big leak, but the top of the nuts got covered with coolant after a day or so after wiping them off. It also started to slobber oil out the exhaust and it didn't do that at first. I pulled the head and found that the liner is rusted. It is worse at the top, then tapers back to almost no rust at the middle of the liner (top of the piston when the piston is all the way down in the stroke). It's getting a new liner, piston, rings, head gasket, blah blah.... This sucks though. Has anyone else seen this?
15
Other Slow Speed Diesels / low speed inline 6 diesels are still being made....
« on: April 03, 2006, 05:31:07 AM »
http://www.amecco.com/products/main.php3?func=productdetail&id=117&classname=Power%20Machinery&name=MULTI-CYLINDER%20DIESEL%20ENGINE
Check this thing out. I know about the sulzer ship engine, but I didn't know that any engines like this were still being made. It's a true low speed in-line 6 that weighs over 14 tons.
Check this thing out. I know about the sulzer ship engine, but I didn't know that any engines like this were still being made. It's a true low speed in-line 6 that weighs over 14 tons.
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