1
Engines / Re: Noisy CS 8/1
« on: January 09, 2021, 01:36:16 AM »
A most impressive analysis and outstanding explanation, 38AC. You are an excellent instructor and writer. I learned a lot, thank you! Thanks to silvertop too.
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For those who don't know, regular poster Bob (aka Ajaffa) and his wife recently lost his house and many of their possessions (but apparently not his engines!) to a bush fire. Please see this post for details of an appeal to help him rebuild. Thanks, everyone from LEF.
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2
Engines / Re: Noisy CS 8/1
« on: January 01, 2021, 07:47:23 PM »
An interesting situation, silvertop. You have covered all the obvious causes competently. Unless 38AC pitches with an answer, I'd probably accept that there is a volume issue with the head and just add some gasket spacers under the cylinder to get the knock down to normal. If that works, it is self validating.
Flywheel to key play has occasionally be reported as a knock source; that's the only other thing I can recall that you didn't specifically cover already.
As 38AC has shared with us in the past, even Lister CS's have occasionally had QC and consistency issues.
Flywheel to key play has occasionally be reported as a knock source; that's the only other thing I can recall that you didn't specifically cover already.
As 38AC has shared with us in the past, even Lister CS's have occasionally had QC and consistency issues.
3
Listeroid Engines / Re: timing belt conversion on youtube
« on: December 13, 2020, 11:10:55 PM »
I'm grateful to have my 6/1 Listeroid for a working off grid power source; so is my neighbor with his 8/1.
38ac's knowledge and experience on the camshaft issue was something sorely needed back in the heyday; people just accepted that some engines barked out the intake, etc., when what they needed was a straight camshaft and setting lash to get the timing right.
My memory is beyond bad lately. 38AC can you remind us which two valve timing events are the critical ones to set lash to? Intake open and Exhaust open? It's a good one to remind us on a thread for a newbie with an engine to go over, after he checks his cam for straightness.
38ac's knowledge and experience on the camshaft issue was something sorely needed back in the heyday; people just accepted that some engines barked out the intake, etc., when what they needed was a straight camshaft and setting lash to get the timing right.
My memory is beyond bad lately. 38AC can you remind us which two valve timing events are the critical ones to set lash to? Intake open and Exhaust open? It's a good one to remind us on a thread for a newbie with an engine to go over, after he checks his cam for straightness.
4
Listeroid Engines / Re: timing belt conversion on youtube
« on: December 10, 2020, 07:20:59 PM »
38ac's advice on the CS listeroid/clone camshaft being bent (by Rajkot's "sledge that tapered pin after boring hole off axis") is right on the mark. I found it in the 1st clone camshaft I checked via dial gauge and hardwood vee blocks on my cast iron saw table deck. This just after he posted great info on this issue about 5 years ago. My intent here is just to amplify his understated advice for newbies.
32coupe made a very nicely turned offset idler bolt for my neighbor's 8/1 propane conversion. A great kindness!
That engine has been working hard and trouble free as an off grid power and air compressor for 4.5 years now.
32coupe made a very nicely turned offset idler bolt for my neighbor's 8/1 propane conversion. A great kindness!
That engine has been working hard and trouble free as an off grid power and air compressor for 4.5 years now.
5
Listeroid Engines / Re: timing belt conversion on youtube
« on: December 10, 2020, 04:10:04 AM »
I don't believe tight gear lash or out of round gears have ever been reported here before. Perhaps valve train pressure tricked you. Your finding certainly warrants careful checking. Anything is possible in a Rajkot made engine.
6
Listeroid Engines / Re: timing belt conversion on youtube
« on: December 08, 2020, 07:50:12 PM »
An impressive timing belt conversion project.
The idler failure was sorted out by Dave (XYZer) over a decade ago. He found that errors in the idler gear bolt location where consistently causing grossly excessive gear lash. Once people corrected that by offset idler bolts, which Dave most graciously had made in a variety of offsets, there has never been gear failure reported on any idler lash-corrected engine. That was during the heyday of US listeroid/clone imports.
The idler failure was sorted out by Dave (XYZer) over a decade ago. He found that errors in the idler gear bolt location where consistently causing grossly excessive gear lash. Once people corrected that by offset idler bolts, which Dave most graciously had made in a variety of offsets, there has never been gear failure reported on any idler lash-corrected engine. That was during the heyday of US listeroid/clone imports.
7
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Start-o-matic relay sequency
« on: December 05, 2020, 05:27:40 AM »
Thanks for the straight scoop, Alberdonion!
Interesting that Lister felt the rack was insufficient safety for shut down. Or perhaps early on there was doubt about the starter motor torque but lather they kept the valve lifter.
Interesting that Lister felt the rack was insufficient safety for shut down. Or perhaps early on there was doubt about the starter motor torque but lather they kept the valve lifter.
8
Listeroid Engines / Re: Low oil temperature
« on: December 02, 2020, 05:07:54 PM »
Just a reminder; for a 6/1 you can only capture roughly 1500W of heating available in the coolant, and that's for a full load . At a partial load, much less. If I was planning on having it next to the house, I'd balance well, perhaps using the 8/1 aluminum piston. Otherwise the floor vibration could be an issue even for a well balanced engine. 38AC's balancing method is by far the best; he measures, corrects the angle and matches flywheel counterbalance first, then just adds or subtracts to the counterweights equally to get the best running. I'd also use the "leach field" type muffler, as that eliminates exhaust noise, and cleans up the exhaust stink dramatically as well.
9
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Start-o-matic relay sequency
« on: December 01, 2020, 01:40:33 AM »
Very odd indeed. Perhaps someone with working SOM experience can fill us in on the hard facts. The valve lifter makes no sense at all if the starter can crank through compression.
10
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Start-o-matic relay sequency
« on: November 30, 2020, 09:50:12 PM »
Methinks you may be wrong about normal SOM operation. On the SOM docs I studied before I built my own remote start Listeroid (not the document Hugh listed here), a single big solenoid controls rack closer and inserts a spring loaded spacer as valve lifter. I can see no point in having the valve lifter if the engine is started through compression, and Lister didn't add things unnecessary.
I concur with the Arduino and linear actuator approach as being a sound one. There are some low side switching MOSFET boards you can use for solid state switches. If you'd like RPM sensing, you can use any inductive sensor near the spoked wheels for rpm sensing. I used a Cherry brand hall effect sensor w/magnet proximity detector instead. If you've got solid wheels, a hall sensor and some small glued on the hub magnets will do the job.
I concur with the Arduino and linear actuator approach as being a sound one. There are some low side switching MOSFET boards you can use for solid state switches. If you'd like RPM sensing, you can use any inductive sensor near the spoked wheels for rpm sensing. I used a Cherry brand hall effect sensor w/magnet proximity detector instead. If you've got solid wheels, a hall sensor and some small glued on the hub magnets will do the job.
11
Listeroid Engines / Re: Simple Electric Starter for Listeroids
« on: November 15, 2020, 05:38:21 PM »
I sent some photos to Veggie when he PM'd me. Forgot to post here for the larger audience in case someone else was interested. For setups where air is handy, pneumatic cylinders are cheap and powerful. Otherwise, I'd look at the short throw motorized actuators from China. I use a pair of Picaxe 40x2's for remote start/shutdown/monitoring control. They talk over about 400 feet of Cat5 cable, at a whopping 600 baud, an opto-isolated current loop.
Great to see XYZer show up here! A personal hero of mine. One of his idler gear offset bolts keeps my Listeroid going strong. His research showing Rajkot was mis-locating the idler bolt compared to the CS solved the mystery of gear failures. His posted video of a foot engaged, electric rubber roller starter with auto glow plug switch is a very impressive piece of engineering!
Alan, welcome!. There are some folks here who do know the SOM very well (I don't.), but you're best off showing us some detailed pictures to show just what you've got and what has been cut/disturbed.
Best Wishes,
Bruce M
Great to see XYZer show up here! A personal hero of mine. One of his idler gear offset bolts keeps my Listeroid going strong. His research showing Rajkot was mis-locating the idler bolt compared to the CS solved the mystery of gear failures. His posted video of a foot engaged, electric rubber roller starter with auto glow plug switch is a very impressive piece of engineering!
Alan, welcome!. There are some folks here who do know the SOM very well (I don't.), but you're best off showing us some detailed pictures to show just what you've got and what has been cut/disturbed.
Best Wishes,
Bruce M
12
Listeroid Engines / Re: Simple Electric Starter for Listeroids
« on: November 14, 2020, 01:19:51 AM »
Thanks, Hugh, for reminding me that Veggie is the originator (at least here) of the CS- DC motor/generator setup, Hugh. My memory is terrible. Just one of the many losses MS brings. And thanks to Veggie for his marvelous work and first rate and original genset designs he has shared with us over the years.
13
Listeroid Engines / Re: Simple Electric Starter for Listeroids
« on: November 14, 2020, 12:47:10 AM »
My engine shed has a small PV panel that keeps the 12V battery charged. It might be 40W. So I can run the air compressor alone, with no battery issues. It's sunny enough here at 5600 ft in AZ so that I can use any retired 12V battery. In essentially float service, an extra 4-6 years is common.
The Gast 4AM can't pull through compression, no even close. Air motors have very low starting torque. Good for not slipping on the flywheel but makes decompression required. In 0F weather (very rare here) , I must unstrap the compressor for first start; it has too much drag when the compressor oil is that cold. I do have a glow plug, a great help for winter starts at my elevation.
Since my Listeroid 6/1-ST-3 was destined for dual use air compression for my shop's 500 gallon air tank, I used an air cylinder for each, rack closer and for a valve lifter. Small ones are dirt cheap and I plumbed them with 1/4 drip irrigation line and slip in fittings. Small 12V solenoid valves and an N-ch Mosfet transistor let the Picaxe 40X2 do the "heavy lifting". Only the Gast 4AM needs a big high flow solenoid valve.
If I was starting over, I'd copy Hugh's setup. Air works great but is annoying for leaks; pilot valves, checkvalves, etc., all leak slightly and have an operating lifespan. The plumbing alone probably cost what Hugh spent, and his setup can be maintained by any good mechanic.
The Gast 4AM can't pull through compression, no even close. Air motors have very low starting torque. Good for not slipping on the flywheel but makes decompression required. In 0F weather (very rare here) , I must unstrap the compressor for first start; it has too much drag when the compressor oil is that cold. I do have a glow plug, a great help for winter starts at my elevation.
Since my Listeroid 6/1-ST-3 was destined for dual use air compression for my shop's 500 gallon air tank, I used an air cylinder for each, rack closer and for a valve lifter. Small ones are dirt cheap and I plumbed them with 1/4 drip irrigation line and slip in fittings. Small 12V solenoid valves and an N-ch Mosfet transistor let the Picaxe 40X2 do the "heavy lifting". Only the Gast 4AM needs a big high flow solenoid valve.
If I was starting over, I'd copy Hugh's setup. Air works great but is annoying for leaks; pilot valves, checkvalves, etc., all leak slightly and have an operating lifespan. The plumbing alone probably cost what Hugh spent, and his setup can be maintained by any good mechanic.
14
Listeroid Engines / Re: Simple Electric Starter for Listeroids
« on: November 13, 2020, 04:09:24 PM »
I use a Gast 4AM with rubber roller, with air cylinder engagement, auto remote starting. A decent match for my setup since my 6/1 Listeroid does most of it's run time as an air compressor. It's in a a dedicated engine shed so weather is a non-issue.
I think Hugh's DC motor/generator setup gets my vote for the simplest, sweetest approach with off the shelf hardware. It's very well suited for a classic 12V starting battery setup.
A wild speculation of another alternative which avoids adding another motor and belt drive:
I believe that the ST single phase generator head might be driven as a starting motor with some custom electronics. It might need a variable frequency inverter plus circuitry to handle switchover after engine start to alternator mode. I'd start experimenting with applying inverter generated AC (MSW) to the stator windings, with DC applied to the rotor, to see what the starting torque is.
On Veggie's proposal of the use of a belted induction motor as starter- no reason this shouldn't work and without connection after start, the freewheeling load should be as good as a DC motor/generator. It would require some sensing of engine start to disconnect, though, if run speed is under inverter frequency, it should not be critical. Still, I'd not want to test that switchover circuitry on an expensive inverter.
I think Hugh's DC motor/generator setup gets my vote for the simplest, sweetest approach with off the shelf hardware. It's very well suited for a classic 12V starting battery setup.
A wild speculation of another alternative which avoids adding another motor and belt drive:
I believe that the ST single phase generator head might be driven as a starting motor with some custom electronics. It might need a variable frequency inverter plus circuitry to handle switchover after engine start to alternator mode. I'd start experimenting with applying inverter generated AC (MSW) to the stator windings, with DC applied to the rotor, to see what the starting torque is.
On Veggie's proposal of the use of a belted induction motor as starter- no reason this shouldn't work and without connection after start, the freewheeling load should be as good as a DC motor/generator. It would require some sensing of engine start to disconnect, though, if run speed is under inverter frequency, it should not be critical. Still, I'd not want to test that switchover circuitry on an expensive inverter.
15
Listeroid Engines / Re: Where to get 6/1 head gasket
« on: November 08, 2020, 09:45:37 PM »
I've had to resort to silicone RTV on a gaskets to go gasket also, on my Metro Listeroid 5 bolt head and cylinder that were hand flattened. It started weaping out of the water jacket holes after a couple hundred hours. Fine after RTV. So I can confirm 38AC's wiser perspective that Rajkot 5 bolt head "innovation" is not an improvement.
The stock Rajkot copper- asbestos- copper gaskets, with asbstos sealed with Permatex Aviation Gasket sealer diluted slightly with alcohol, are the best at staying leak free, so that's what I've got in mine. With copper gasket spray paint, I've found they are OK to reuse.
Never a head gasket leak on my neighbor's CS 8/1 clone from DES, but it's got no liner, 7 bolts, and is running with reduced compression (0.6 inch shim under cylinder) on propane/spark.
The stock Rajkot copper- asbestos- copper gaskets, with asbstos sealed with Permatex Aviation Gasket sealer diluted slightly with alcohol, are the best at staying leak free, so that's what I've got in mine. With copper gasket spray paint, I've found they are OK to reuse.
Never a head gasket leak on my neighbor's CS 8/1 clone from DES, but it's got no liner, 7 bolts, and is running with reduced compression (0.6 inch shim under cylinder) on propane/spark.