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Messages - sailawayrb

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1
General Discussion / Re: concrete vs resilient mounting
« on: March 28, 2022, 06:06:26 PM »
These photos were posted on this site many years ago but were apparently lost.  For those interested in this subject, here are the photos again along with the system descriptions.

https://www.borstengineeringconstruction.com/Lister_Engine_Photos.pdf

2
Listeroid Engines / Re: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« on: July 03, 2014, 04:56:11 PM »
I don't have any experience with running with WVO, only SVO.  I don't have any experience with injecting straight water water either.  Running propane simply results in more complete combustion which results in less residual carbon formation.  Furthermore, a by-product of propane combustion is a significant amount of water vapor.  So in addition to getting more complete combustion with the associated increase in mechanical horsepower, one also continuously steam cleans the combustion chamber when running propane.  So I suppose one could say that one is BOTH minimizing the formation of carbon and also quickly removing any carbon that may result.  This really isn't new knowledge as propane combustion chemistry has been known and taught in mechanical engineering design courses for many years

3
Listeroid Engines / Re: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« on: July 02, 2014, 12:25:45 AM »
15% propane is about as high as I can reliably operate my 6/1.  Somewhere near 20% is where I have encountered knocking with propane.  This likely varies somewhat depending on the actual valve timing.  I have run 85% natural gas without any issues other than there is still carbon buildup.  So I prefer propane dosing (AKA propane fumigation) which I thought was the subject of this thread.

4
Listeroid Engines / Re: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« on: July 01, 2014, 02:28:51 AM »
I think most of us 6/1 natural gas and propane users just rely on the existing mechanical governor to maintain a constant engine RPM.  As long as there is an adequate percentage of diesel or SVO still being throttled by the mechanical governor, and as long as the natural gas or propane flow rate is kept constant (typically using a gas regulator), the mechanical governor will handle typical load variances and maintain a constant RPM quite well.  Since you can't run a high percentage of propane anyhow, this is good approach for propane.  If you wanted to push the near 100% boundary with natural gas, I could see how using a small constant flow of diesel or SVO and throttling the natural gas might have some advantages.

5
Listeroid Engines / Re: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« on: June 30, 2014, 02:16:09 AM »
Precisely.  The real advantage to burning propane (besides the better fumigation properties than natural gas) is the significantly increased combustion of the primary fuel.  My 6/1 generates about 3800 watts maximum running only SVO.  It generates about 4400 watts maximum running SVO and propane and runs noticeably smoother when doing so too.  There is an approximately 1/1 relationship between the percentage of propane burned to the percentage of increased SVO combustion mechanical BTUs…up to the limit that you can burn propane in a 6/1.

6
Listeroid Engines / Re: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« on: June 27, 2014, 05:20:29 AM »
Similar setup to Carl and can burn either natural gas or propane as indicated.  Primary fuel is SVO and mostly burn a low level of propane to eliminate carbon buildup and any associated maintenance.  Use a vacuum switch to close solenoid and stop flow as safety precaution should the engine shutdown.  Will be 10 years of operation this September.

http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php?g2_itemId=351

8
Lister Based Generators / Re: Lister 10/1 inside attached garage.
« on: August 06, 2013, 02:14:30 AM »
I have been running my 6/1 on SVO in my attached garage for almost 10 years:

http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_itemId=351

The engine is of course mounted on a resilient engine stand.  The exhaust goes through a wall thimble into an underground concrete tank for noiseless decompression and then runs about 100 feet underground in perforated plastic pipe and eventually surfaces without any sound/smoke.  The crankcase check valve is vented to the outside as well.  There are smoke and carbon monoxide detectors in the garage and the emergency shutdown control system will shut the down the engine by dumping carbon dioxide into the engine intake if these detectors get tripped (or if the engine over-speeds, over-temps, over-vibrates, or the oil level gets too low).

Bob B.

9
Listeroid Engines / Re: Fuel Headder Tank
« on: February 27, 2013, 05:06:09 AM »
I run SVO.  When SVO tank gets low, the control system switches to diesel.  If diesel gets low, the control system shuts down the engine.  Both the SVO and the diesel tank can be unpluged and refilled without shutting down the engine.  The control system uses float switches in the tanks, a solenoid valve for the fuel switching, and relays for the control logic.

http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_itemId=351

See Diesel/SVO/Propane Control System photos and description.

Bob B.

10
Exactly so Quinn and I believe we had a very nice post at the time detailing this analysis and proper TRB setup.  It is a well established engineering fact that using TRBs appropriate for the application which are properly setup will significantly out live plain bearings.  A Lister tech from the 1950s might be a good historian, but would be far from an expert relative to proper engine design.  Has there ever been a TRB failure reported?

Bob B.

11
Engines / Re: Anyone ever had a crank welded?
« on: December 23, 2012, 05:01:17 PM »
The problem with repairing a component by welding is NOT associated with the resulting material’s YIELD strength (i.e., the STATIC tensile or compressive load that can be applied before failure occurs).  A good weld will always be stronger than the original material and the repaired component will be able to handle the same static loading as previously.  

The problem with repairing a component by welding is that even a good weld still introduces a stress concentration in the component (i.e., a change in material strength within the component).  This stress concentration reduces the FATIGUE strength of the component (i.e., the CYCLIC tensile or compressive load that can be applied before failure occurs).  This means that the component will fail sooner under cyclic loading than as previously.  And for this crank shaft cyclic loading situation, failure will likely occur much sooner as this crank shaft would have been originally designed for an infinite fatigue life so as to never fail.  Designing for infinite fatigue life is possible and normally done for iron/steel/titanium components that will experience cyclic loading, but this is NOT possible for aluminum/copper components.  This is why components that will experience cyclic loading are NEVER welded, they are properly FASTENED…or should be…

Bob B.

12
Listeroid Engines / Re: Engine cooling expansion tank placement.
« on: December 03, 2012, 11:17:16 PM »
It's always a good idea to have your coolant overflow/expansion tank connected to the highest point in the cooling system, such as right next to the radiator cap.  That way, if you develop a head gasket leak and combustion gas forces its way past the head gasket and into your coolant you'll be alerted by the appearance of bubbles in the overflow tank.  Without that tank there you could end up filling the hot side of your cooling system with exhaust gas, eventually stopping the thermosiphon, and leading to overheating.  

Agreed and verified too!  One should replace the copper head gasket with a decent gasket when first building the engine.  You can see a photo of my radiator/expansion tank here:

http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_itemId=351

13
Other Slow Speed Diesels / Re: Witte CD-14 in Az
« on: October 13, 2012, 07:18:32 PM »
Gasoline must be atomized by a carburetor or fuel injector, then ignited with a spark.  Diesel is atomized by a high-pressure pump & injector, then ignited through compression.

Diesel and gasoline are two fuels with intentionally different design characteristics.  Diesel is measured with the Cetane index and gasoline with the Octane index. If a fuel performs well on one index, it usually performs very badly on the other.  A good diesel fuel will be easy to ignite and will have a short ignition delay period because you want the fuel to ignite almost instantaneously. A good gasoline will be defined just the opposite: the more compression the fuel can withstand before detonating, the better it is (hence, difficult to burn).

There may be some way by which this reported operation could work, but what would be the motivation to do this?

Bob B.
 

14
Lister Based Generators / Re: Help for 6/1 foundation
« on: October 05, 2012, 07:56:25 PM »
If you have to deal with multiple RPMs that vary significantly, that can be accomplished with multiple isolation stand levels each tuned to the required disturbing frequency (RPM).  However, normally you will get plenty of vibration isolation across a fairly wide RPM range if you correctly selected the isolator mount spring rate and load rating in the first place.  You can see that by using the calculator and observing the isolation output value after varying the RPM once you have a good design.  

If you spread out the distance between the feet of the isolation stand, there is no need to attach the isolation stand to anything.  Again, if you correctly select the appropriate isolator mount parameters, you shouldn't get any detectable vibration transmitted beyond the isolation stand.  This “magic” is accomplished by the physics of using a properly designed isolation stand.  I suspect that some folks just kludge together a stand without actually first designing it, get less than good results, and then form an erroneous belief/opinion around their experience.  And then there are other folks who just take on blind faith what they have been told.

I have been running on an isolation stand since 2004 in the attached garage of my suburban home.  There were many “experts” back then who held the erroneous belief that concrete was the only way to mount these engines.  Their primary argument was that concrete is what Lister recommended and therefore any other approach was wrong.  What they neglected to consider in their critical thinking (or lack thereof) was that the folks who designed our Lister engines were only a few hairs away from being baboons relative to engine design and structural dynamic mounting knowledge as compared to today.  The fact of the matter is that all engines mounted to a properly designed isolation stand will see far less fatigue stress during their operational life than if they are just bolted to concrete.  This is doubly true if the engine is grossly out of balance and just bolted to concrete “as is”.  In my opinion, if you can’t get your engine to operate nicely on an isolation stand, you probably shouldn’t be operating these engines at all...or if you do, perhaps you should mount it on concrete in a building far away from people...

Bob B.

15
Lister Based Generators / Re: Help for 6/1 foundation
« on: October 05, 2012, 08:26:45 AM »
Respectfully, if you know what you are doing, you don't need any concrete at all.  If interested, you can find an Isolation Stand Design Calculator here:

http://www.borstengineeringconstruction.com/Calculators.html

Please be sure to read the Calculator Instructions carefully before using it.

Bob B.

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