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Messages - ronmar

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Listeroid Engines / Re: Joyfull Sound
« on: August 13, 2019, 02:52:50 AM »
Nice tappet rotation...

Listeroid Engines / Re: Colder start 25F
« on: January 14, 2019, 04:20:03 AM »
Barefoot really? :)

I dont think you were missing, I think the cold oil and governor linkages were causing it to hunt/overshoot.  One thing I did to mine was to add a small soft spring at the top where it connects to the rack.  This holds the rack and all the linkages at one side of its slop. This makes the governor much more responsive to load changes and less likley to overshoot at load changes.

Stock ST bearings?  I hear the yak fat they are lubricated with dosnt like the cold:)

For cold starts I pull the valve cover, pour a little alcohol in around the injector and light it on fire...  warms the injector and the head, makes the first pop a little easier especially when cranking against cold oil...

Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Identify this part....
« on: August 08, 2018, 12:01:17 AM »
Cover for some type of filter housing or a case access cover?

Listeroid Engines / Re: Theory/Principles?
« on: June 29, 2018, 12:06:53 AM »
Big repair bill.  The critical part is the spool valves on the injectors, when they stick, no injector firing.  Next would be the oil pump, buried in the top of the engine, lots of labor to reach and replace, then the oil reg solenoid valve.  Couple thou in parts possibly...

I have never seen a bendix that didnt come to a near point.(rounded).  It looks like they ground one side, and the tip/outer edge, but not the other side.  I would take a die grinder and match the same angle on the un-ground side. 

They also left sharp edges.  I would also use a rotary file bit in the die grinder and round off all the edges where the angles meet. When it does come in contact with the side of a ring gear tooth, there should be no sharp edges to dig in as it slides off of the side of the ring gear tooth and engages,

Sharp edges here are like the sharp edges on the rotary file bit that dig in and remove metal...

Also check inside the solenoid for free travel and that it is pushing the bendix ALL the way forward for full engagement with the ring gear.  My chinese starter on my Jinma was lubricated with “Yak Fat” and did not like to move well when cold...

Listeroid Engines / Re: Theory/Principles?
« on: June 28, 2018, 09:39:27 PM »
It is not the pump, but the injector.  Common rail systems dont use an injector pump as we typically understand it.  On ford powerstrokes, you feed fuel at about 60PSI to the common fuel rail and all the injectors, very similar to a gas EFI system, a simple regulator dumps excess fuel back to the tank to maintain pressure on the rail.

The powerstroke has a high pressure engine oil/hydraulic pump that can push pressure to about 3500 PSI.  It has a solenoid actuated regulator valve that is controlled/modulated by the ECU to regulate this oil pressure between about 500 and 3500 PSI. This high pressure engine oil is fed to all the injectors

The injectors are the key to the high pressure atomization. They are basically a combination of a hydraulic cylinder and a piston pump/syringe.  They have electrically actuated hydraulic spool valves that open when commanded by the ECU to admit the 500-3500 PSI engine oil.  The hydraulic cylinder piston face is 7 times larger than the injector piston face so the oil pressure is amplified into the fuel by a factor of 7. This gets you a variable injection pressure between 3500-24500 PSI.  Injector pressure, firiing duration and timing are all controlled by the ECU.

Interesting system, I think they use the same ECU as the gas engine, but it feeds a second module instead of the injectors directly. The added module is called a fuel injection control module or FICM. It takes the injector firing commands from the ECU and converts them to the 48VDC used by the injector spool valves...  works great, but is dependant on engine oil quality to maintain injector operation...

General Discussion / Re: oil burners
« on: June 14, 2018, 06:12:19 AM »
Things I have learned in my experiments:  I am also looking for small output and simple.
I dont think overtemp is a problem, in fact you need red hot temps to completely crack the gas for a clean burn.  Particulary important if you are trying to heat water as an unclean burn will quickly condense on your heatex.  I have found the hotter the burn the less carbon also as the high temp the heavier the oil you can crack.  I believe that burning oil is basically like refining it.  The lighter portions vaporize and burn at lower temps leaving an ever thickening base that requires a higher and higher temp to completely consume.

The minimum chimney I have been able to burn consistently with is about 7’ problem is getting adequate turbulence, and it is a fine mix between getting primary air and secondary air in the right place with the right proportions. I would like to heat water also but a larger chimney might be a problem so I may shift to a fan/blower configuration to keep it copact and experiment with that.

Moisture content is the biggest variable and will really confuse things as it only takes a little moisture vaporizing to remove more heat than you can create. 

I actually have a fuel design I have built that seems to be pretty foolproof.  So far I have only configured it for batch burns of about 1qt but it solvs the inconsistencies and hazards of drip feed and it has no moving parts(except the fuel of course). Since it only feeds fuel as it is burnt, it cannot overflow if it flames out. Its only issue has been with the introduction of large ammounts of water. When it reaches the vaporizer it of course boils and can cause some oil to escape thru the air inlet.  But since it is such a small burner the catch pan it sets over easilly contained the oil, some of which burnt briefly.  If this was in a contained unit it would not be a problem as the products of combustion would be pulled right thru the burner by the draft.

Generators / Re: Engine speed and Hz
« on: June 09, 2018, 06:33:54 AM »
Typically the only things really frequency sensetive are those things that use frequency for timing.  Induction motors are one such item so will run at a different RPM with a different frequency applied.  This might cause issues if their end load is not prepared for the higher RPM, such as blower impellars not able to accept the added centrifugal force... or the motor at a reduced RPM might not deliver enough torque to maintain the mechanical load and overheat.

With todays global markets, most electronics use switching mode power supplies to make the DC used by the device from AC.  As mentioned Most all have become universal and will accept 100 to 250 VAC at just about any frequency, so the plants are not making specific products for specific markets.

If your generator speed is mechanically governed, it will probably vary a little more than 1-2 HZ from no load to full load as mechanical governors MUST droop in RPM in order to increase the throttle as the load increases.  My slow speed listeroid runs at a little over 600 RPM with around a 3:1 belt drive ratio which delivers 1800 RPM and 60 hz with a 4 pole generator head.  I set it for 62HZ no load and it droops to right around 58HZ at full load.  More than acceptable for residential power...

Listeroid Engines / Re: Greetings All!!! New To me Twin Power Line.
« on: April 14, 2018, 04:44:08 PM »
If the check ball in the pump is gummed up and not sealing, it wont pump either.  Had to do a bit of polish work on my single pump to get it working well. 

If your squish is too tight, the valves might be closer to the piston than they should be, but your pics do indeed look like carbon buildup...  #6 lead shot from a shotgun shell works great for measuring squish as the consistent size lead ball squeezes out very nicely.  The shot from a single shotgun shell will last you about a hundred years of normal testing.  The base gasket stackup is used to set squish.  i use a little dab of grease to hold the lead shot in place on the piston top directly over each end of the wrist pin.  Doing it like this will also show you if your cylinder is tilted In relation to the plane that the piston/rod travels in.  Pay attention to the placement of any half gaskets under the cylinder base.

Listeroid Engines / Re: NEW Listeroid
« on: April 10, 2018, 03:39:11 PM »
Yep, strip it down and do a sand check, worst place for future damage is sand up inside the piston as this will work loose and wipe the rod bearings as they are splash lubed from the top..., as are the cam bearings and any falling sand will find the way to the top oil ports.

Gear backlash is another great thing to take care of for longevity to keep the gears from hammering themselves to pieces.  It probably has a bronze idler, as I think all of Georges PS engines speced the bronze idler gear but you may need to get someone to machine an offset idler bolt for you. That is the best way IMO to smooth out the gear train.  Getting rid of excessive gear backlash really makes them run nice and quiet.

Crankshaft endplay/roller bearing pre-load, you can play with the bearing carrier gaskets/shims to set that.  Should be about .005" cold, which is just about the minimum of movement I can feel by pushing/pulling on it by hand.

pay attention to the gaskets or half gaskets under the cylinders and confirm their proper use by measuring differential squish using lead shot under each edge of the piston directly above the ends of the piston wrist pin. they use gasket/shim buildup under the cylinders to tilt the cylinders to align them with the plane of the piston/rod(perpendicular to the crank).  This is how they account for any casting/machine errors in the crankcase.

Good luck. 


Listeroid Engines / Re: NEW Listeroid issue
« on: April 07, 2018, 09:23:29 PM »
Another cause of excessive oil down past the valve guides is over-filling the wells...  They just need a little in the bottom. Do not fill the wells above the top of the guides. Since the guides usually do not protrude above the lip of the spring/guide well, if the well is full, you are probably overfilled...  again, the good news is that the engine will quickly consume the excess down to the right level:)  The warm head causes the oil to easilly wick up the valve guide and springs to meet the lube needs of the valve stems/guides...

Listeroid Engines / Re: NEW Listeroid issue
« on: April 07, 2018, 03:56:36 AM »
At one time, someone rigged up a plastic crankcase cover and observed that when the engine is up to speed, the entire bottom end is "fogged" with whipped up oil from knife edge dippers.
  I think as long as most of the dipper and nearly to the castle nuts of the crank, is the correct oil level.

That was me, the plexi window coated with oil so quickly you couldnt see anything after just a few seconds.  Did a better video with no window, just bagged everything to catch the oil thrown out the door and put the camera high enough to be out of the splash zone.  Note the far side of the engine compartment is pretty quickly coated completely with oil so a knife edge slings plenty of oil. 

Here is a link to the better vid.

As for the slobber, put a load on it!  50% is ok, but 80-90% would be better IMO.  As for oil level, that is why I like the dual sump design, as the lip on the upper sump maintains the ideal dipper oil level as the excess oil pumped up for the main bearings just runs over the lip to the lower sump. 

I think it was Magic Jack who had a lot of great info on oil level as he used a single long term for power.  All over-filled oil went past the rings and was burnt.  It would consume oil rapidely and slobber down to its sweet spot, then stop...

Have you done the “reed in the mist” mod? I think it is a great mod to insure the camshaft far-end bearing gets plenty of oil...

Lister Based Generators / Re: Re-introduction with questions
« on: October 03, 2017, 04:40:09 PM »
I would look at the injector spray pattern first.  Flip the injector over so it points up, purge out all the air and crank it up as fast as you can and drop the start lever.  You are looking for a good even spray pattern of very fine droplets. 

Low Fuel pressure or an injector spray issue could be delivering fuel that isn't as atomised as it should be.  What you are looking for are large drops or straight streams which will cause large quantities of fuel to stick to the cylinder walls and pass the rings.  Running at reduced load and even more importantly reduced temperature can contribute to this also...

Lister Market Place (things for Sale) / Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« on: September 29, 2017, 05:19:23 PM »
I agree! My gripe with tank cooling are the same as 38ac's. Antifreeze keeps the corrosion in the cylinder and head at bay. My 61 system uses just over 2 gal in the primary loop(smallest volume I have ever heard of) but I am running a low volume/tiny water to water flat plate heatex on mine.  The upshot is it costs me 1 gal of propolene glycol based A/F mixed at 50% in a sealed system with expansion tank...  It dosn;t corrode, it dosn't get dirty and it works... 

Tank cooling is not the best for long-term operation.  IMO it is for when you don't have something better available, and most of us do...  Tank cooling is entirely dominated by evaporation. As an example, a 55 gallon drum is 34" tall X 24" diameter.  With 210F coolant and 60F still air, an open tank should shed 3240 BTU/SQFT/HR thru evaporation.  The metal skin will only shed around 360 BTU/SQFT/HR at those temps.(around 9:1 ratio) Add it all up.  The drum sidewall is 17.8 SQ/FT, the bottom and top are 3.14 SQ/FT EA for a total metal skin area around 24 SQ/FT.  At the above temps,, an open top drum will Shed around 8600 BTU/HR if the top is on.  That is a little under 1/2 the heat output of a 6/1 at full load.  It is actually less than that, as the temp in the water decreases as you go down so less heat loss near the bottom.  The open water surface area of an open topped drum is 3.14 SQ/Ft @ 3600 BTU/HR = 11,304 BTU/HR thru radiation and evaporation for a total of 18,804 BTU/HR from a 55 gallon open topped drum.  This will decrease with higher ambient air temperatures. The open tank is really self regulating as you approach 212F the evap heat loss skyrockets, but so does the water loss...  That 18.8KBTU/HR figure is almost exactly 1/3 the BTU content of the fuel burnt by a 6/1 at full load(and very close to heat outputs I have measured from my 6/1:)) IE: a 55 gallon open topped drum will just cool a 6/1 at full load at 60F as long as you keep the water topped off(they are not foolproof either).

IMO best left for the jungle with an abundance of empty fuel drums and water...

Listeroid Engines / Re: Metro 6/1 no oil pump, but cooling pump?
« on: September 23, 2017, 11:12:27 PM »
Thermostat = yes.  Cooling pumps are not positive displacement so it does not "run dry" nor does it have a problem with a closed thermostat. like about every auto out there have no issue with a closed thermostat.  The thermostat should have a small bypass hole added to it to allow a little coolant to leak past so the hot coolant can reach the thermostat bulb that opens the thermostat gate/valve plate.  This helps the thermostat to regulate better As long as it is not too large a hole(1/8" or so should be fine).  I probably wouldn't put much faith in a rakjot coolant pump to last, probably better to not use it and configure for thermosiphon...

No oil pump huh?  Does it have the true single main high volume oil sump?  The pump version has a stepped sump.  The upper sump has perhaps 3/4" of oil in it that the dipper swings thru.  The pumped oil squirted on bearings and crank runs down into and keeps the upper sump full for the dipper to swing thru a consistent oil level.  The excess runs over the lip to the lower sump which contains several quarts of oil and from which the pump draws.    If the block casting is a stepped sump you are going to have to figure a way to keep the upper sump full as the dipper slings most all the oil toward the cam, but some does get splashed back and will find it's way to the lower sump untill there is not enough upper sump oil to maintain good dipper splash.  Easiest way to do this is to keep the lower sump full to the point that it just barely flows over into the upper sump.  But if that oil level decreases(and it will) then there is nothing to keep the upper sump full...  In the case of an original pattern casting, it may not even be possible to keep the lower sump that full as the fill point was lower than the upper sump and was a sliding metal plate(not oil tight).  My casting was sealed where the original fill point would have been located on a true lister so on some it is possible...

Oil = non detergent. 

Not a bad idea to check differential squish(place lead over each end of the wrist pin).  Squish in general is good info and diferential squish will give you an idea if the cylinder bore is in the same plane as the piston/rod travel(machining errors not withstanding of course)...

Has it set for a while?  Original design rope fuel filter?  Way better basic fuel filters out there that won't cause you as many problems as the original either clogging or leaking/admitting air...  if the system has been dry, once filled with fuel tap all the hose with a screwdriver to help dislodge air bubbles otherwise these will cause you issues for a little while as they work loose and find their way to the IP.

Goosd luck!

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