1
Everything else / Re: Welding Stainless Exhaust Coupling. Advise Needed
« on: January 03, 2008, 04:38:38 PM »
A large mill file will flatten your warped flange very nicely and easily.
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2
Everything else / Re: Exhaust heat recovery- Exhaust to water exchanger
« on: January 03, 2008, 04:33:05 PM »
Buick,
"an engine needs back pressure to operate". Ain't true
An engine does not need back pressure to operate simply run, but a lot of engines need the exhaust sized correctly to operate at peak efficiency at certain rpms. I wouldn't term it as back pressure but as others alluded to as velocity, tuning the length can have some serious gains as well in very high rpm engines to pressure wave scavenging. Any dyno operator can tell you that changing the exhaust will move the power band for better or worse. Most of the time a large exhaust will lose power in the lower rpms where vehicles operate the most and gain near the top end.
"an engine needs back pressure to operate". Ain't true
An engine does not need back pressure to operate simply run, but a lot of engines need the exhaust sized correctly to operate at peak efficiency at certain rpms. I wouldn't term it as back pressure but as others alluded to as velocity, tuning the length can have some serious gains as well in very high rpm engines to pressure wave scavenging. Any dyno operator can tell you that changing the exhaust will move the power band for better or worse. Most of the time a large exhaust will lose power in the lower rpms where vehicles operate the most and gain near the top end.
3
Engines / Re: Braze it or silver Solder it?
« on: December 24, 2007, 08:30:10 PM »
Brazing is very strong in tension if the gaps are fine. Many pre aluminum/carbon fiber race bicycles and even allot of yesteryear race/sport cars had brazed thin wall tube frames and failure was always due to sloppy fit up or not cleaning the joint prior to brazing and not common. In my welding literature brazing has higher tensile strength than steel (which is the stress on the joint) so it should be fine if done correctly (tight fit up shouldn't be a problem with your clamp) Silver solder (which is actually brazing) equals or exceeds standard brass brazing strength but will not match the color. A small piece of thin brass maybe an 1/2 inch long brazed to the back side of the joint would assure that it would not break (lap joints are preferred in brazing). After brazing a coping saw and small file would be used to clean it up and no one would know the difference when installed. For specs go to the American Welding Society website. WWW.AWS.org
4
General Discussion / Re: Efficiency v2.0
« on: December 21, 2007, 04:25:15 PM »
The biggest improvement in efficiency, almost doubling it, comes very easy actually. I know that the big cats on a gen are running around 43 percent efficient (mechanical). They commonly use the hot cooling water to heat buildings in northern europe the efficiency jumps to around 90. The dutch use landfill gas to power several engines, use the jacket water to heat greenhouses, and remove the CO2 from the exhaust and pump it into the greenhouse to not only help with the solar gain but helps the plants grow faster. So install a jacket around the exhaust and pump it and the cooling water though a radiant floor. Summer time or live in a hot climate? Use the heat for domestic hot water or to power an absorption type refrigeration system
5
General Discussion / Re: the cost of a btu
« on: December 20, 2007, 04:30:06 PM »
The main reason that diesel in the winter goes up is not because of the changeover in refineries(plays a small part) but because of pure and plain science. When they refine oil the is so much propane, so much gasoline, so much kerosene, so much diesel, so much bunker oil, and so much asphalt that comes out per gallon of crude. The companies can change the ratios slightly but not by much. When Caterpillar brought out there diesel engine tractors in the 1930's they didn't sell it for the fuel economy in their sales brochures. They sold it cause diesel was dirt cheap. Because gasoline was the standard fuel, diesel was a byproduct, very few used it. Same with kerosene. As trucks, trains, boats,jets,and home heat has switched over to these cheap fuels, then it became more than a byproduct into a main product. Propane exploded in popularity in the 50's because again, it was a waste product that most refineries just flared off but it's popularity have brought it to a main product status. As has natural gas that is extracted in the oil wells, landfills, and coal mines.
In the winter with heating needs rising, transportation and heating compete for a finite supply(refinery capacity, which hasn't grown in this country in years because of environmental laws make it near impossible to do so.) Diesel is not that much more efficient than gas engines when you measure pounds of fuel burned per hp.(All oil base fuel have very close btu's per pound measurements. The constellation engines exceeded the fuel efficiency of many diesels in their day and is close to many modern diesels. Large ground transportation (class 4-8 trucks and large equipment) gas engines did not receive any research and development and I am convinced that with turbos,turbo compounding, multiple spark plugs, modern fuel injection/computer ignition, overhead valves, that these large engines would have reaped the same lbs per hp that their diesel counterparts and light vehicle (gas and diesel) engines get.
Everyone is so engrossed with MPG that they don't look at the true picture of MPD miles per dollar or miles per Btu. Do the math, whether comparing a 3/4 ton gas and diesel pickups, or a efficient gas car to a diesel or hybrid counterpart, the gas engine will cost less in the total lifespan and in btu's, and that is comparing diesel when it was 10 cents cheaper than gas, not more expensive like it is now. (If you can regularly use waste oil then this doesn't compare,at least in MPD, but most can't)
In the winter with heating needs rising, transportation and heating compete for a finite supply(refinery capacity, which hasn't grown in this country in years because of environmental laws make it near impossible to do so.) Diesel is not that much more efficient than gas engines when you measure pounds of fuel burned per hp.(All oil base fuel have very close btu's per pound measurements. The constellation engines exceeded the fuel efficiency of many diesels in their day and is close to many modern diesels. Large ground transportation (class 4-8 trucks and large equipment) gas engines did not receive any research and development and I am convinced that with turbos,turbo compounding, multiple spark plugs, modern fuel injection/computer ignition, overhead valves, that these large engines would have reaped the same lbs per hp that their diesel counterparts and light vehicle (gas and diesel) engines get.
Everyone is so engrossed with MPG that they don't look at the true picture of MPD miles per dollar or miles per Btu. Do the math, whether comparing a 3/4 ton gas and diesel pickups, or a efficient gas car to a diesel or hybrid counterpart, the gas engine will cost less in the total lifespan and in btu's, and that is comparing diesel when it was 10 cents cheaper than gas, not more expensive like it is now. (If you can regularly use waste oil then this doesn't compare,at least in MPD, but most can't)
6
Listeroid Engines / Re: 6/1 versus 12/2??
« on: February 05, 2007, 04:50:34 PM »
We had several 2 cylinder John Deeres and my favorite was a 60 with power steering(didn't like the one without) to rake with. On a warm summer afternoon after lunch it was extremely hard to keep the eyelids open when being lulled by that old girl. On the other hand I couldn't stand to have it cranked up and be plowing. Especially if it got tough she would bounce the front wheels off the ground and sound like an autoloading shotgun all day. The international was the prefered tractor for the plowing chores.
7
Listeroid Engines / Re: Lister Chick
« on: January 09, 2007, 02:13:24 PM »
BuickandDeere,
Peak oil is not about running out of oil, every thing I have read and I personally agree with is that you are correct that there will always be some oil or energy substitute. The Idea behind peak oil is that we have already reached the peak of production or soon will and it will start to fall off some(Some of the equipment my company sells to the oil industry and the amount that they are buying confirms a small part of it to me). At the same time the demand is exploding, now that the chinese and indians are taking the money we have been sending them for the last 15 years and moving up to "middle class" and buying cars. Even is the supply stays stable, to demand is going to cause large jumps in the affordability and availibility of oil.
Now I do agree with Hotater that feeding the bunnies is a turnoff, unless that is she is baiting them and enjoys rabbit stew and fur lined hats
Peak oil is not about running out of oil, every thing I have read and I personally agree with is that you are correct that there will always be some oil or energy substitute. The Idea behind peak oil is that we have already reached the peak of production or soon will and it will start to fall off some(Some of the equipment my company sells to the oil industry and the amount that they are buying confirms a small part of it to me). At the same time the demand is exploding, now that the chinese and indians are taking the money we have been sending them for the last 15 years and moving up to "middle class" and buying cars. Even is the supply stays stable, to demand is going to cause large jumps in the affordability and availibility of oil.
Now I do agree with Hotater that feeding the bunnies is a turnoff, unless that is she is baiting them and enjoys rabbit stew and fur lined hats
8
Engines / Re: Diesel Engines
« on: December 27, 2006, 07:19:57 AM »
No there is no standards for the engine themselves, shaft diameters and lengths vary widely, but there are SAE standard bell housings, of course you dont have a clutch so that doesnt matter. Not being familiar with the Arens mowers, are the mowers hydraulic drive? Do belts or a shaft run the pumps if so? Either should be very easy to adapt as there are many different sizes of belt pulleys(outside and shaft diameter) and a machine shop could easily fab up a new shaft or mount for the hyd pumps.
Unimog- I would use a pre MTD cub cadet before a wheel horse. They had the stoutest frames and transaxles. 99 percent of the garden tractor pullers use the cub cadet frame and transaxle even if they put another brand body on it and paint it diffenent colors. They stand up to 50 plus horsepower. A case/ingersoll rand(case sold out to them) would be a good choice to however although most of the case models can be very hairy going down hill as the hyd motor freewheeled in that direction. Most of the ingersoll rand models had a flow valve to prevent this and a few of the later cases did.
Unimog- I would use a pre MTD cub cadet before a wheel horse. They had the stoutest frames and transaxles. 99 percent of the garden tractor pullers use the cub cadet frame and transaxle even if they put another brand body on it and paint it diffenent colors. They stand up to 50 plus horsepower. A case/ingersoll rand(case sold out to them) would be a good choice to however although most of the case models can be very hairy going down hill as the hyd motor freewheeled in that direction. Most of the ingersoll rand models had a flow valve to prevent this and a few of the later cases did.
9
Listeroid Engines / Re: Danger: Broken Flywheel
« on: December 22, 2006, 05:11:15 AM »
Geno, if done right there is alot of tension on those steel tires on wooden wheels. The trick was to get the right measurement subtract around 3/8 of on inch for a standard size wheel, heat the tire and spoon it on and cool. With a flywheel you wouldn't have to cool it however cause there is not chance of the steel burning like the wooden wheel will. Find a tire rolling machine and you will be in business.
10
Listeroid Engines / Re: THE ENGINE ROOM
« on: December 22, 2006, 04:55:19 AM »
I stoped by my amish harness maker to pick up a harness for my new belgain and asked to see his setup for his milk chiller and air compressor(he has a dairy farm as well). He had a 3 cylinder aircooled lister(of recent manufacture) and it powered a jack shaft that set behind the engine. He had an air compressor, a refrigration pump for his milk chillers, and a hydraulic pump for several machines in the shop. Both compressors were set up really nicely to disengage, one automatic(the chiller compressor) the other was manually(air compressor). Each compressor was bolted to a heavy 3/8" steel plate that had 2 pipes welded to the underside on the outside edges. The pipes were 1 inch inside diameter and they rode around/on 1 inch steel rods. The rods were maybe 8 inches longer than the pipes/plate and were supported above another plate that is bolted to the concrete slab with 1"x1"x1/2" thick pieces welded at the ends. The chiller had an air cylinder that moved the compressor mount plate to tension the belts and the air compressor had a handle that moved it and went slightly over center to lock in place. The correct tension on both compressors was adjusted by moving the compressor on the mount plate which had slots milled in to allow it. When the mounts were disengaged the belts had very little friction on them.
11
Listeroid Engines / Re: Bicycle Tachometer on 6-1?
« on: December 18, 2006, 06:13:29 AM »
Here is something made for the purpose, they work very well and have an hour meter and service meter on them as well
http://www.tinytach.com/tinytach/diesel.php
Probably not that much more expensive either
http://www.tinytach.com/tinytach/diesel.php
Probably not that much more expensive either
12
Listeroid Engines / Re: fuel compsumpion
« on: December 13, 2006, 06:28:10 AM »
I will not comment of the actual fuel consumption related to the lister/listeroids but I will make a comment on BSFC. This is a weight measurement so one has to forget the btu's per gallon. Gasoline and Diesel fuel have different wieghts per gallon but have close to the same BTU's per pound. This goes for alot of other liquid hydrocarbon fuels. When you look MPG it seams one is much more efficient than the other but when you compare Horsepower per pound it equals out more, depending on the design and application, as some designs are better suited to the job at task.
13
Listeroid Engines / Re: Railway sleepers V Douglas fir
« on: December 01, 2006, 02:43:59 PM »
UMMMM.
You wanted to use wood to save money compared to the cost of steel. Yes it is high but>>>
If you are putting the resilient mounts, unless they are free cast off tire treads(aligators around here) its going to cost a pretty penny.
How about all those fasteners to mount everything together?
If it needs balancing how much money will you spend there?
The list goes on and no one really has enough hours to say if it will work or not over the long run(I personally don't think it will hurt anything)
A yard of concrete cost 80 dollars here and would make an excellent base with the bolts that are shiped with your engine. Few pieces of scrap 2x4's and plywood sheet you have a form that even someone with a PH.D could pour(well maybe not).
Plus you would have the knowledge that it something that is tried and trued. Do leave a small gap between the edge of the block and the slab around it.
You wanted to use wood to save money compared to the cost of steel. Yes it is high but>>>
If you are putting the resilient mounts, unless they are free cast off tire treads(aligators around here) its going to cost a pretty penny.
How about all those fasteners to mount everything together?
If it needs balancing how much money will you spend there?
The list goes on and no one really has enough hours to say if it will work or not over the long run(I personally don't think it will hurt anything)
A yard of concrete cost 80 dollars here and would make an excellent base with the bolts that are shiped with your engine. Few pieces of scrap 2x4's and plywood sheet you have a form that even someone with a PH.D could pour(well maybe not).
Plus you would have the knowledge that it something that is tried and trued. Do leave a small gap between the edge of the block and the slab around it.
14
Listeroid Engines / Re: Lister w/ DI and Nat Gas fuel
« on: December 01, 2006, 02:26:23 PM »Quote
I do know that engine deposits are greatly reduced but at the same time exhaust valve heating becomes an issue so mixture and timing becomes critical to avoid valve and valve seat failures from overheating.
This is quite correct on spark ignition engines, especially in the gas fields because some of the fuel can vary in energy pretty rapidly. Because of this you can go from lean to rich and or vice versa pretty quickly. Some of your bigger and more expensive engines have woodward controls that check for detonation and vary the gas mixture and timing to keep this from happening. This is less to a non problem on the supply side of natural gas because it has been processed and mixed sufficiently to even out its energy content.
However when using it in a diesel these problems dont exsist. Because they diesels draw in a full air charge every time they dont burn lean unless at one very specific load. But remember you are only supplanting part of the fuel charge. As the load increases there should be a optimum fuel ratio spot and as it goes beond that it becomes richer as the injection pumps more fuel in even though more air can not enter resulting in black smoke resulting in a rich mixture. Unless you rig up some type of complicated injection metering system for the gaseous fuel, one should set the gas amount at small load, because if you set it at a higher load and that load drops, the rack will close on the diesel injection pump and the engine will not burn the gaseous fuel possibly shutting down the engine or causing flames to shoot out the exhaust when it opens again. If you rig up a varible gas injection system you would really need to pay attention to burning lean but I dont think that anyone here would do such a thing as it would take more money for the controlls than the engine cost
15
Listeroid Engines / Re: Lister w/ DI and Nat Gas fuel
« on: November 29, 2006, 04:14:06 PM »
Dan K
What are your 3 phase motors running and how big are they?
One solution is to run the equipment off of the listeroid complete. Many old machinery shops had a jackshaft over head or down one wall that ran all the lathes/ and drill presses off of belts. They were tensioned to engage the individual machines. Belt drive in this manner is much more efficent than converting mechanical energy into electricity and back again. I think belts loose somewhere less than 5 percent compared to 20-30 percent for a generator loss(this is just off memory so maybe doug or someone else could help?) Of course this limits you machine layout and if you have small kids or idiot adults around there is somewhat of a safety issue depending on how you do it. The other option, if you 3 phase motors are not to big, is to build a phase converter. They are simple to cobble up but they dont work well as well for large hp electric motors. Again, I do not know what you are running so these are just general suggestions.
As for the nozzle to inject propane. The best thing I have seen to do it is a Cat either nozzle. It is a 2.5 inch long small diameter brass tube with very fine holes drilled in the sides all over and capped at the end. At the other end is 1/4 inch pipe threads so the hole shebang can be installed very easy into any intake plenum buy drilling and tapping a 1/4 inch NPT hole. The nozzle has a small flared male connector on the outside for a secure leak free connection to tubing. If it can mist either fine enough I am sure that propane would be no problem. I am sure other brands have them as well.
What are your 3 phase motors running and how big are they?
One solution is to run the equipment off of the listeroid complete. Many old machinery shops had a jackshaft over head or down one wall that ran all the lathes/ and drill presses off of belts. They were tensioned to engage the individual machines. Belt drive in this manner is much more efficent than converting mechanical energy into electricity and back again. I think belts loose somewhere less than 5 percent compared to 20-30 percent for a generator loss(this is just off memory so maybe doug or someone else could help?) Of course this limits you machine layout and if you have small kids or idiot adults around there is somewhat of a safety issue depending on how you do it. The other option, if you 3 phase motors are not to big, is to build a phase converter. They are simple to cobble up but they dont work well as well for large hp electric motors. Again, I do not know what you are running so these are just general suggestions.
As for the nozzle to inject propane. The best thing I have seen to do it is a Cat either nozzle. It is a 2.5 inch long small diameter brass tube with very fine holes drilled in the sides all over and capped at the end. At the other end is 1/4 inch pipe threads so the hole shebang can be installed very easy into any intake plenum buy drilling and tapping a 1/4 inch NPT hole. The nozzle has a small flared male connector on the outside for a secure leak free connection to tubing. If it can mist either fine enough I am sure that propane would be no problem. I am sure other brands have them as well.