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Home of the Listeroid - Since 2005
News:
For those who don't know, regular poster Bob (aka Ajaffa) and his wife recently lost his house and many of their possessions (but apparently not his engines!) to a bush fire. Please see this post for details of an appeal to help him rebuild. Thanks, everyone from LEF.
https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8876.0
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Listeroid Engines / Re: Listeroid intake porting
« on: January 23, 2021, 06:52:23 PM »
WOW 38ac, thats a pretty big difference is size. I'm starting to wonder if the original lister team was focusing on some modified atkinson cycle type gains with this motor. Less compression ratio(low intake volume) vs expansion ratio. Thats one thing I love about the motor is the RPM / HP vs Displacement. Leaves lots of time to absorb the energy and keeps the numbers high for such an old design.
You are right though, best way to get more power is to go with a twin. I'm picking up an 16/2 as soon as the budget allows for my gen head. Then I can use my 8/1 for my low RPM always on axial flux CHP. Who says you only need one motor? I missed that rule. I'll just tell the wife the other motor was getting lonely....
You are right though, best way to get more power is to go with a twin. I'm picking up an 16/2 as soon as the budget allows for my gen head. Then I can use my 8/1 for my low RPM always on axial flux CHP. Who says you only need one motor? I missed that rule. I'll just tell the wife the other motor was getting lonely....
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Listeroid Engines / Re: Rajkot Dynamometer facility
« on: January 18, 2021, 05:34:40 AM »
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a Listeroid
I'm glad I wasn't taking a drink when I read that.
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Waste Vegetable Oil / Re: New waste oil Burner.
« on: January 13, 2021, 04:41:20 PM »Here, what is called "steel wool" is hair fine fibers of steel, which actually burn and rust up real easy.
Something from a boat yard called Brass Wool (for scrubbing finish and crud off boats without leaving iron bits to create rust streaks) wouldn't oxidize as fast, but may melt from heat. Maybe stainless wool ? or something like coarse stainless chips & spirals from a machine lathe
Mike,
I know you posted this a while ago but if your looking for a high temp wick, ceramic fibers work really well. The alcohol stove folks use it all the time.
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Changfa Engines / Re: Chagfa 175 CHP unit - First Test
« on: January 08, 2021, 02:45:32 AM »
Thank gadget,
The pump is a 12 volt solar hot water unit. It is wired to a toggle switch at the starter button.
I will look at the data sheet and check the allowable orientations for the pump.
Ideally the pump and heat exchanger would be mount "off-skid". But this is for testing the concept.
The ceramic bearing types will have a long skin white bearing / shaft with ceramic side washers. If you lay it sideways, The rotor rotates on the shaft and not the side washers. It should add much more life. You will see it the first time you ever have to pull it apart to free it from debris.
Great pumps, I have dozens of them. I have one about 30 feet down in the ground pumping ground water 24/7. It gets ran for about 4 months strait every winter geo heating my green house.
I am really curious how well it holds up to the high temps. I have a project down the road where I would like to run one at 150F.
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Changfa Engines / Re: Chagfa 175 CHP unit - First Test
« on: January 07, 2021, 02:15:14 AM »
Veggie, you have so many cool engines.
That water pump you have on there may have a longer life if you rotate it 90 degrees so the impeller/magnets ride on the ceramic shaft. Also, im curious what temps it see's with this setup. I've worked with many of those pumps. Is it a 2 phase or 3?
I love your builds
That water pump you have on there may have a longer life if you rotate it 90 degrees so the impeller/magnets ride on the ceramic shaft. Also, im curious what temps it see's with this setup. I've worked with many of those pumps. Is it a 2 phase or 3?
I love your builds
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General Discussion / Re: Glort gone awol
« on: January 06, 2021, 07:00:45 AM »
I'll give the guy some credit, I was able to use one of his WVO ideas for filtering and drying vacuum pump oil. Has save me lots of $$$
Rest in peace Glorty
Rest in peace Glorty
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Engines / Re: Noisy CS 8/1
« on: January 06, 2021, 06:39:46 AM »I was hoping for an easy fix for you. If the valves where hitting the pistons, you would see marks on top of the pistons. Have you gone over it with a stethoscope yet? I know sound can travel and magnify in bell shapes but I would give it a go if you have one. You might be able to isolate the noise to a location. I use one daily working on cars all these years. Also, how about posting a video with it running? Maybe someone here can recognize it. Bottom end noises are usually a deeper noise then valve train. Piston pin issues usually have a double clatter type noise. Piston slap and rod bearings can change during load transition but you really cant float/tap the throttle on this motor.
One other thought i had is timing gear backlash. though I think that rock back noise happens at over lap and not before exhaust valve opening. I don't even know if this motor has over lap...I guess its worth a look if you run out of ideas. Might be worth a try to load your flywheels with a 2x4, but is sounds like you've checked them thoroughly. Also, if you feel comfortable with this, try pushing down on the rocker above the push rod and make sure the lifter isn't sticking up a bit and getting slapped by the cam. You could probably actually check it with the motor not running.
Keep up posted on progress, I'm pretty curious to see what it is.
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Engines / Re: Noisy CS 8/1
« on: January 06, 2021, 02:23:34 AM »
I had an 85 corolla diesel I was driving across three states a few years back. After coming over a grade I noticed the engine started to knock really loud. I had also fueled up right before the grade. Sounded like the bottom end was coming apart, I wasn't sure if I was going to make it. I thought climbing the hill killed it but it was just bad diesel. Next fill up the noise went away.
Turned out to be bad diesel. Probably had some gasoline mixed in it.
Turned out to be bad diesel. Probably had some gasoline mixed in it.
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General Discussion / Re: Glort gone awol
« on: January 05, 2021, 11:03:35 PM »I tried that but he is gone, cleared out, disappeared, maybe the CIA got him. I left him a PM on Microgen, but he hasn't replied or read it. I too found his knowledge useful and easily overlooked his abrasiveness. His insight into everything WMO/WVO is unequalled. If you do happen to go past him, please PM me his details. I know EdDee is also keen to contact him. Thanks, Peter
He had some really good ideas on drying WVO. I think he had a youtub channel, but I can't find it now. This forum seems to have issues with users disappearing and post vanishing.
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Engines / Re: Noisy CS 8/1
« on: January 05, 2021, 10:57:36 PM »
Have you tried a separate source for diesel? I would drain the tank and switch out the fuel from another station. You can't fully verify the fuel without some lab testing, just swap it all out and see.
I've gotten bad diesel fuel knock before...
I've gotten bad diesel fuel knock before...
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Listeroid Engines / Re: Reduced HP / RPM. Setting up for continues run, low output
« on: January 05, 2021, 04:15:33 AM »gadget,
Sure, you can insulate the head.
Like this guy...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2ehdeEJOok
You can also run it slower and add a thermostat to keep the combustion temperatures high.
You can also load the engine up to 85% of the HP it creates at that lower speed, ensuring that it's adequately loaded and making as much heat as possible.
Good luck with the project, and be sure to post pictures/videos
veggie
Wow, that video was just uploaded 2 days ago, talk about timing. Glad to see someone else using insulation, hope to here back how it works. I'm thinking some rockwool with a nice sheet metal cover, it does look pretty hideous like that.
If anyone gets a chance to read the PDFs Hwew posted I recommend it. Lots of good info in there. One thing mentioned is a very lightly loaded diesel could see as high as 500 to 1 air to fuel ratio. This is a big contributor to the stacking or coaking issues. Think about this, lowering the engine RPMs down to match a light load may actually be better in some circumstances vs running at full RPM with a light load. Veggie mentioned it and I agree, matching load to RPM is something to consider. But what about bearing "lugging"? I think in a diesel it would smoke profusely before and "lugging". Anyone have any thoughts on this?
I don't think it would be a problem but thought I would ask anyway.My motor is still disassembled in boxes at the moment. I started a new business and I don't have much free time. Right now, I'm building a new (larger) freeze dryer for the business and I don't know when I can get back to the motor. I will post pics/results once it gets going. Plus, its about 30F in my garage right now
If I do go the low RPM route, I would do a once a week full RPM / full load exercise combined with some water injection. The higher air volumes can do wonders to push out soot. We had a Mercedes diesel get stuck in full fuel once in a shop and it ran full RPM for about a minute. It left a pile of soot on the shop floor where the exhaust pointed down. The customer reported back no problems with the motor and that it ran better then it had for years. I'm not recommending anyone try this...lol
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Listeroid Engines / Re: Reduced HP / RPM. Setting up for continues run, low output
« on: January 04, 2021, 05:41:39 PM »
hwew,
I was digging through some of the changfa videos. Thats a nice looking little motor, to bad the ban came in right when they where getting popular. I like the dual balance shafts and gear drive setup. From what I can tell, it is partially splash lube so that would have to be checked out for low RPM operation. I don't think many got imported. There may be less of them in the US then listeroids. Im wondering if someone can import "kits". Im guessing they don't make the R165 anymore, anyone know?
For now, I think I will focus on converting a lister since I'm thinking the Changfa displacement might be to small for very low RPM range. The lister already has the large flywheels....
Lets assume for argument that a 6/1 produces 1 H.P. at 100 RPM (probably less than that). Thats 745 watts of flywheel power. If you apply a 600w load, you are now in the "heavy load" range. Assuming a 33% thermal efficiency lets say we will have 4,100 BTUs/hr waste heat. lets say we want to heat the entire motor minus flywheels from 60F to 180F. heat capacity of mild steel = .122 btu/lb-deg F ...400lbs x 120F increase x .122 = 5,800 BTUish. roughly 85 minutes to full warm up of entire block. Thats assuming no losses from surface radiation on the motor. Thats not allot of heat to work with. If we want to raise 50 gallons of water from 60F to 140F, we need 33,000 BTUs. Thats 8 hours of run time assuming zero loss from the block to the room. Thats almost a perfect match for a little remote cabin and basic hot water needs. FYI this would also involve capturing exhaust heat otherwise numbers are double for water heating time.
The block is going to need to be insulated. Now for what its worth, most vehicles I have worked on hot over the years never see 180F through the entire motor. Mostly between 120-150F on the edges and opposite ends of the motor. We don't have to keep the entire motor at full temp. There is resistance to heat flow, we just need to keep the head and cylinder/piston up to temp.
The other issue is the V.E. We will need to be getting 1.66 CFM into the motor at that RPM. There is a way to confirm this, if someone had a compression gauge and a 2 cylinder lister, they could confirm this with one side running and the other measuring running compression through the RPM band. We could graph VE through the RPM range this way. Other option is to manually spin up a single cylinder lister.
Some thing to think about, the V.E. can't be to horrible at that low of an RPM otherwise these motors would never hand start without glow plugs fully cold. Bumping the compression up may be all that is needed. The induction system may be fine how it is.
This is looking very possible from what I can see.
I was digging through some of the changfa videos. Thats a nice looking little motor, to bad the ban came in right when they where getting popular. I like the dual balance shafts and gear drive setup. From what I can tell, it is partially splash lube so that would have to be checked out for low RPM operation. I don't think many got imported. There may be less of them in the US then listeroids. Im wondering if someone can import "kits". Im guessing they don't make the R165 anymore, anyone know?
For now, I think I will focus on converting a lister since I'm thinking the Changfa displacement might be to small for very low RPM range. The lister already has the large flywheels....
Lets assume for argument that a 6/1 produces 1 H.P. at 100 RPM (probably less than that). Thats 745 watts of flywheel power. If you apply a 600w load, you are now in the "heavy load" range. Assuming a 33% thermal efficiency lets say we will have 4,100 BTUs/hr waste heat. lets say we want to heat the entire motor minus flywheels from 60F to 180F. heat capacity of mild steel = .122 btu/lb-deg F ...400lbs x 120F increase x .122 = 5,800 BTUish. roughly 85 minutes to full warm up of entire block. Thats assuming no losses from surface radiation on the motor. Thats not allot of heat to work with. If we want to raise 50 gallons of water from 60F to 140F, we need 33,000 BTUs. Thats 8 hours of run time assuming zero loss from the block to the room. Thats almost a perfect match for a little remote cabin and basic hot water needs. FYI this would also involve capturing exhaust heat otherwise numbers are double for water heating time.
The block is going to need to be insulated. Now for what its worth, most vehicles I have worked on hot over the years never see 180F through the entire motor. Mostly between 120-150F on the edges and opposite ends of the motor. We don't have to keep the entire motor at full temp. There is resistance to heat flow, we just need to keep the head and cylinder/piston up to temp.
The other issue is the V.E. We will need to be getting 1.66 CFM into the motor at that RPM. There is a way to confirm this, if someone had a compression gauge and a 2 cylinder lister, they could confirm this with one side running and the other measuring running compression through the RPM band. We could graph VE through the RPM range this way. Other option is to manually spin up a single cylinder lister.
Some thing to think about, the V.E. can't be to horrible at that low of an RPM otherwise these motors would never hand start without glow plugs fully cold. Bumping the compression up may be all that is needed. The induction system may be fine how it is.
This is looking very possible from what I can see.
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Listeroid Engines / Re: Reduced HP / RPM. Setting up for continues run, low output
« on: January 04, 2021, 06:49:39 AM »Here is some info: I’ve saved more through the years, I just have to find it.
The Impact of Generator Set Underloading (Must be logged in to view the attachment)
Some other stuff
https://service.multiquip.com/pdfs/Diesel_Engine_Wet_Stacking_Prevention.pdf
https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/eng/eng-01-00009/article_deploy/eng-01-00009.pdf
Sorry, this is long winded;
I read both of the PDF's. I know the trucks that idle for hours at truck stops have trouble with wet stacking in cold climates.
This got me thinking about some high temperature wood stoves I have made. I built one last winter with a ceramic fiber burn box and 2 blowers. Out put was very clean. Almost zero carbon build up in the stove. Flue exhaust (2 inch PVC) is basically warm misty CO2. Pretty cool for a wood stove.
I design my wood stoves with these principles; You have your fire triangle - fuel/heat/oxidizer (O2) but I also came up with an efficiency triangle after studying thermal oxidizers - time(under heat)/turbulence/temperature. Burning fuel is pretty simple, break the fuel down to its individual atoms and combine it with and oxidizer and allow enough time. Problem is, there is not enough time in a wood stove so we an make up for it by increasing the heat. In an engine, there is pretty much zero time so its pretty much just heat and mixing(turbulence). You can actually burn a fuel at room temperature by the way. Just allow enough time and it will oxidize(burn).
So in your diesel, as long as you have enough heat, air is coming in, and your injector is spraying fuel, it should run. Problem mentioned in the articles is that there is not enough heat in low load operation and the fuel is not burning completely. Just like if you run your wood stove on low you get build up in the chimeny.
partially broken down fuels(incomplete combustion) produce smaller hydrocarbons like tars/turpins and such and when they condense and combine with carbon it forms a sticky mess. Enough of this can cause engine damage over time.
with diesels unrestricted air intake, the fuel mixture can become extremely lean under light fueling adding to the problem. The cold high volumes of air cools the fuel mix to much causing pockets of unburned fuel.
So basically, motors are designed to operate in a window but, can we move the window around. How low can that window go? They use to run motors at very low RPM years ago, I'm assuming they worked fine???
We just need to maintain the efficiency triangle at the RPM's we want to run at. Listers seem to already have issues with buildup so how do we keep efficiency up? Trap more heat in??? Up the static compression??
I mentioned wrapping the block and head in insulation earlier, Anyone have any thoughts on that?
? What issues would this cause??Great input so far!!
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Listeroid Engines / Re: Listeroid intake porting
« on: January 03, 2021, 04:08:44 AM »Shrouding may not be the technically correct term but the 45° seat angle starts at the deck and continues down past the full face of the valve and below it. The head of the valve recessed at .100 below the deck. Certainly not conducive to good flow past the valve,, or great seating either.
Ah yes, I see what you mean. Just curious, what kind of life are you seeing out of the factory seats? Are they prone to sinking?