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Messages - Bolton Power Equipment

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Lister Market Place (things for Sale) / Re: New Listeroids for sale
« on: August 29, 2019, 11:51:28 AM »

Thank you for explaining that again to those of us that missed it the first time.

I now understand the reason you think your engines will last 50K hours and be superior not having the problems other people encountered with these engines and manufacturers is because you told the smart Indian Business men that if they sold you good engines, you'd buy more.

I'm sure that promise of future orders of what?  5-10 machines at a time,  changed the outlook of every worker in the factory and inspired them to all take a level of pride and care in assembling these engines like they have never done or even know how to do, like ever before.  No doubt the managers and owners of the plants will also be encouraging their workers to slow down and take their time to ensure every one of the engines they build for you prioritises quality over the usual Quantity targets they push for. 

If there is one thing your comments have proven far beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind, it's the Vindication of Bruce's statement that you haven't got a clue about the quality issues of these engines nor done a thing to address them.



How many 3rd world factories have you been too?? I've been to 5.. How many export managers have you had dinner with and discussed how they could meet their quotas? At least 5 for me. How many containers of equipment have you imported? No idea for me, lost count. It's very simple. I'm going to use an approach that has worked well in the past and give it a whirl. So far nothing to indicate that it won't produce a viable product as it has in the past. I have an open mind, do you?

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Lister Market Place (things for Sale) / Re: New Listeroids for sale
« on: August 29, 2019, 03:51:04 AM »
Guys, let me say this again because it seems most of you missed it the first time. I didn't say I have the perfect mousetrap or a secret sauce to make the perfect listeriod. I said I've seen this movie before in China and I know how it ends. One of you said "China is not Rajkot". Well no it isn't, today. But it was 25 years ago when I started looking at Chinese tractors. I visited the factory and they were all hand made by dudes squatting on a dirt floor with hand tools next to a wooden cart with hand made parts on it in a room with no doors, sort of like a Chinese public bathroom, but thats another story. We had all the same issues with boring tool run out, milling tool chatter, misaligned holes, missing process steps, you name it. One importer called RHINO out in California just brought in containers and had so many problems it ultimately finished the company. I asked the product manager in China if the RHINO people had ever visited the factory and he said "no". So I went over there a number of times and looked at what they could do and what they couldn't do well. I didn't buy certain accessories from China, I had them made here in the US or Canada until they could make them well enough, some they never did. In one case we had milling facing problems causing leaks so I asked them to double up on the gasket. I also bought enough tractors to have their attention when I came to visit. Bottom line I fine tuned what I had. Listeriods are the same. Many of you are talking about how they don't have tight tolerances. They don't, but they don't need them. You can get 10 Hp at 7,000 rpms out of a 5 lb aluminum chainsaw motor, but it better be C&C designed and patterned along with very good materials QC or it won't last very long. But a listeriod weighs 1,000 lbs and turns at 1,000 rpm max. A few thousands off on the bore isn't going to matter and you don't need to magnaflux a 50 lb. 10Hp crankshaft that turns at 1,000 rpms. With a 400 HP engine it might be a good idea. With a 500 lb. 10HP crankcase you don't need ASTM grade cast iron either. That engine is so over designed it will be running long after the chain saw motor is shrapnel. The Chinese solved those issues much the same way by over designing the product. I've spent a few years testing these things and what I see is exactly what I expected. An over-designed 100 year old design that stills works for a reason. If Indians are one thing they are smart business people. I will buy volume as long as they give me what they can, not what they can't. Same offer I made the Chinese and I never had quality problems. Rhino did, I didn't, same factory group. The Chinese today have come a long way with manufacturing but 25 years ago it was Rajkot today. I will deal with the manufacturer the same way and get a consistent and acceptable product. I've already decided on buying some parts here, just like I did with the tractors. No magic, just knowing what you have.

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Lister Market Place (things for Sale) / Re: New Listeroids for sale
« on: August 26, 2019, 06:12:22 PM »


Diesels last a long long time. A listeroid is an over designed extremely low stress e.g. yield, engine. 

It would not surprise me at all to see a well maintained listeroid chugging away at 50,000 hours.

Mate I don't know if you have done any reading here or just come to push your business interests but you are talking to people who pretty much at a Minimum, have a decade of experience with these things on their own, and probably several centuries combined. You are talking to many people whom in some cases have torn down, modified and rebuilt dozens of these things. And you are trying to tell them you know better after playing with a couple for a couple of years.  I'm sure you can see the credabiolity problem there.

If you go back through the loads of info here again going back over 10 years, you will see people well understand these things and their abilities and limitations. Unless you have re invented the wheel, there is nothing to say your engines are any different or better than the ones people have been playing with  for a VERY long time.

Describing what is well known and making predictions that in no way add up to the hands on experience so many people have with these engines in all their different sizes and flavours, is not going to convince anyone nor change their minds. 
From what I can tell, you have a few years experience playing with these things but you are trying to tell people whom have relied on them daily for years and torn loads of them apart, that what they know is wrong.

From what I can see, the sum total of your experience with these engines is you have been testing a couple ( or was it just one actually used) for a couple of years. That means absolutely nothing. I have had one of these things about 10 years but there would be a bunch of people here that would run theirs more in a month or two than mine has done in it's life.  Exactly how many hours has this test engine of yours done?  I know for a fact the engine I have is a complete and utter piece of garbage with every known fault these things have but it's probably done a couple of hundred hours and runs fine too.  How it runs at 500 hours and beyond I expect would be a very different thing.

Are you even aware of the common problems with these engines and what specifically have you done to address them? If you listed those you would have a lot more traction in trying to convince people the engines you are selling will be different and more reliable.

Sorry, but what would or wouldn't surprise you or what you think is really insignificant to the decades of hands on experience people here have with these engines and the information they have shared which pretty much all flys in the face of your own. Which to be honest, is nothing more than sales Hype rather than anything remotely technical or detailed .
You have actually posted ZERO information or details that would change anyone's mind that you have overcome the mountains of documented problems these engines can have due to the terrible manufacturing practices and non existent quality control from where you are sourcing them that is the same place everyone else has.
Have you even been to any of the factories and seen and spoken to those making them first hand or has this all been organised through emails?

Did you tear either of these engines down you tested at any point and check them to be in spec and assembled correctly or did you just take the assurances of the person you bought them off because they said the right things you wanted to believe? Without a teardown and measurement, you are kidding yourself far more than anyone else.  I see nothing so far that suggests that you have done anything but run them.... for unknown hours with an unknown load. 

I understand you are trying to push these things and have a financial vested interest in them and therefore want to show them in the best light. Unfortunately You are completely and utterly out of your depth here with the experience and knowledge many have ( and I'm NOT talking about myself)  but as disagreeable as some here can be, their opinions formed over many years and with at least 10's of engines will always be what I and pretty much everyone else goes with, especially as it completely agrees with my own limited experience. It will take a LOT for you or anyone else to come near the respect and believability people here hold that have already commented here.


You may be better off spending your time trying to push your beliefs of these things to less experienced people else where because I really don't think you are going to do much good trying to sell your Yellow snow to this Village of Eskimos.
Where you might get better returns for your efforts is to look at importing spare parts. These are always in demand ( despite the engines running 50K hours) and there would be I believe a better and more profitable market for them.... If you can compete with the other established people doing it in the limited market that exists.

Unless you can PROVE different, what you have is the same engines everyone else has. That's OK though. Just don't try to over hype them and tell people they are something they are not and that's good enough. The engines are well known to this audience, just make the things affordable and available and you are there. Plenty of people will buy them for what they are with all their faults and problems IF they can get them at a reasonable price. You'd do a lot better to be honest and say these things typically need work to get them right than try and tell them you think they should last 50K hours when I myself have yet to see anyone with EXPERIENCE claim that yet.
Just get the things into the US at a reasonable price and 90% of the work will be done then and there.

As one sales person to another, You are going to have to hit this audience with a lot of hard and documented facts to win them over that you have a better mousetrap and change their minds. Talk alone is not going to come near doing it.


I guess you're right, what could I possibly know about diesel engines from the 3rd world? I only imported them for 20 years. 300-400 tractors and maybe twice that in small engines for generators and pumps. Been to the factories frequently and talked to the product managers and engineers. But how could I understand what they were talking about, I only got both my engineering degrees 40 years ago? Diesel engines from India don't use the same physics, chemistry or metallurgy as diesel engines from China so how could I compare them? So I wondered where you earned your engineering degrees, how many diesel engines you have imported and how many years you have been in business?? Curious.

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Lister Market Place (things for Sale) / Re: New Listeroids for sale
« on: August 09, 2019, 08:30:46 PM »

50,000 hours !

In 10 years the average car engine only has approx 10,000 hrs.
(average 3 hrs per day X 365 days X 10 years = 10,950 hrs)

50,000 hrs / 5 hrs per day = 10,000 days ( or 27 years ) of running every day without major overhaul.

Based on the service work that is discussed here by members, I would say your claim is off by about 24 years worth of running.


Diesels last a long long time. A listeroid is an over designed extremely low stress e.g. yield, engine. To put it in perspective years ago I had an 88 F250 truck with a 7.3L IDI diesel. I put 500,000 miles on that engine with zero failures that required road service on the engine. Batteries and tires yes but never anything broken in the engine. The only parts I ever installed on that motor was a set of glow plugs and I replaced a dripping injector, just one. 500,000 miles and maybe an average speed of 30 mph is about 17,000 hours of run time. Maintenance yes, but no failures. That V8 7.3 was much much more complicated than a listeroid and it weighed maybe twice as much, but put out 20X the power.  When I sold it because the body was shot the motor was humming like new and burning no oil. It would not surprise me at all to see a well maintained listeroid chugging away at 50,000 hours.
A Listeroid work engine used most days of the week should need some considerable service within 4 -5 years.

5
Lister Market Place (things for Sale) / Re: New Listeroids for sale
« on: August 04, 2019, 04:04:14 AM »

I had a couple of eval units in the US, one left, a 10/1.

 I'll be putting in an order within a month or 2.

So they aren't exactly Flying out the door then. Might explain why the Chinese haven't taken them on.
Once can deduce your total experience with these units you think will be different to all the rest is exactly, 2.
Kinda.

I haven't offered any volume for sale yet. I've been testing. Same thing I did with the tractors. After 2 years of testing I'm comfortable with them and will start importing but just like the tractors I'll start slow and build the inventory that sells. Again same approach with the tractors. It took 3 years to go from the first tractor to 1-2 containers per month. I anticipate the same with the listeroids. I'm in no rush, I'd rather do it right. People have every right to be cautious , it's their hard earned money. But when the first volume units are deployed the owners will speak well of them and that word of mouth will ramp the business. Same as the tractors. Listeroids aren't mass market, they are a niche product, but a very unique and useful niche product.

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Lister Market Place (things for Sale) / Re: New Listeroids for sale
« on: August 03, 2019, 08:03:31 PM »
Iíve been following this thread with lots of interest. Have the first batch of engines arrived? Any updates?

The guy had them on his website when he started the thread and they looked like they were in the US.
Probably best to send him an email and see how you go. My bet is he either has none or a warehouse full.

I had a couple of eval units in the US, one left, a 10/1. I will be ordering shortly some 10/1's and 6/1's if I don't get a specific requirement for anything else. The 10/1 and 6/1 are the most popular it seems. I'm re-configuring to a water pump only (no radiator), a bendix starter and no rail frame since all inquiries so far have wanted to custom mount and build their own cooling system. I'll be putting in an order within a month or 2. 

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Lister Market Place (things for Sale) / Re: New Listeroids for sale
« on: May 17, 2019, 02:30:52 PM »
Hi Graham.

Looks like you've done your homework. Maybe there will be a resurgence of interest in the CS, in the States, best of luck, keep posting!

Cheers
Stef

Hope so Stef, they are fantastic machines.

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Lister Market Place (things for Sale) / Re: New Listeroids for sale
« on: May 17, 2019, 02:26:03 PM »
BruceM,

       You are correct, Chinese tractors and Listeroids are apples and oranges, but I'm not trying to compare them 1 for 1. The goal is to import the product within an acceptable performance envelope. That requires some level of consistency. I'm not  trying to improve the over all quality because with hand built machines and no modern machining technology thats not an achievable "ask". The Chinese tractor is a much more complex machine than a CS so to broaden the envelope you must improve quality. Thats possible in China, I watched it happen over the 20 years I imported them. The approach with the CS was to over design the things, basically throwing material at it. My approach as I mentioned earlier in other posts is to ask the manufacturer to add manufacturing steps and features that will keep the product within an acceptable quality envelope. These things are so over designed it's ridiculous, a 10 Hp engine that weighs close to 1/2 a ton... I'm aware of the cherry picking that could have occurred if I'd told the vendor they were for evaluation so I didn't.  I told them it was a one time purchase for "the farm". I wanted off the shelf product. I'm well aware of others failing to "bring up Rajkot quality". I'm an engineer by training so I look at problems in the context of root causes and practical processes to resolve. I think others have failed looking at trying to change Indian process to meet their requirements. I prefer to adapt my requirements to meet Indian process. So I have and will continue to add features that they are capable of adding to their process to align with my requirements. I can't comment of the other manufacturing incongruities you mention because I haven't seen them. Another thing to note is that there are many manufacturers and the prices vary quite a bit. But as always you get what you pay for so I don't shop by price. The CS market in India has softened so the committed manufacturers in India are looking for new markets. They want to re-invigorate the US market so I believe they will try hard to cooperate, it's in their best interest. My approach will be to give them a path forward that they can navigate to grow the business. I can't promise that there will be no issues but I will stock parts and make good on any problem. I do however believe that my adaptive approach is a practical path forward considering the realities of Listeroid manufacturing in India.

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Lister Market Place (things for Sale) / Re: New Listeroids for sale
« on: May 16, 2019, 10:06:42 PM »
I havenít sold any yet, hence the ďramping upĒ in my first post. I wouldnít use a customer as a test bed. I donít sell equipment unless Iím comfortable with what it is and what it does. Iíve spent the last 4+ years testing to make sure these machines are reliable and what I get from the factory is repeatable. When I started importing the Chinese tractors I didnít sell them for 3 years because I wanted to run through 2 growing seasons to see how they performed in the fields, plus a couple of winters for cold starts and plowing. 20 years later I still have most of the spares I ordered because they were so reliable. For the Listeroids I wanted to run them at no-load, partial-load and heavy-load for extended periods, 24-36 hours continuously with at least 100 thermal cycles over time. The heads are big and have a lot of mass. I wanted to heat and cool them many times to test the head bolts and make sure they were consistently well within their plastic range so they didnít lose the head gasket as the parts expanded and contracted. What I found was no leakage, zero. I also wanted to measure oil usage under different load conditions. I wanted to check the particulates in suspension in the lube oil after ďXĒ hours of runtime. Which oil seems to work best?  I wanted to check hot starts and cold starts in the winter, in humid conditions and in summer. The only issue I found on one machine  was an oil pump that wept about Ĺ teaspoon of oil every 10 hours of run time or so. It was a bad stem seal and being an external pump took about 30 minutes to replace. After 4+ years of testing not a single critical failure, No seal leaks (other than the one pump), no fueling system issues, no abnormal clearance wear (bearing lash), no valve gear issues, no need to adjust the valves, no issues with the transfer valve leaking, no visible smoke at no or low load after break-in and warm-up. They do take 10-20 hours of run-time to seat the rings. Until they do, they smoke a little but after break-in they are remarkably clean. The only issue other than the oil pump was the leather ďVĒ belts which stretch so I replaced them with green stripes. That was about it. So Iím comfortable that these things are pretty much bullet proof and Iím ready to sell and support them.  Iíll tell you one thing I did not expect was the stability of the governors. I expected that the ďKĒ factor of the springs and the masses of the centrifugal weights would be all over the map and the speed would drift a lot under varying loads when used as an A.C. generator. That didnít happen. I loaded the generators to 50% and only lost about 40 - 50 rpms on a 1,000 rpm engine. Thatís only about 2 Hz drop. So setting the governor to run no-load at 62 Hz is well within electrical tolerance and speed limits for the ST alternator head and any residential load. I was amazed at how well the governors worked. I did not expect them  to work that well. Bottom line these Listeroids will make incredibly reliable and stable off-grid and/or emergency power generators.

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Lister Market Place (things for Sale) / Re: New Listeroids for sale
« on: May 14, 2019, 02:05:38 AM »
No they are Indian but the question was raised about how I would manage consistency of quality and how I came to mention the design reliability. I imported Chinese 70 - 80 year old technology for 25 years where there are a lot of similarities. My point was a similar approach.

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Lister Market Place (things for Sale) / Re: New Listeroids for sale
« on: May 13, 2019, 09:40:29 PM »
I'm hoping to replicate my success with importing from China. Another thing I will do as things ramp is make regular visits to the vendor(s). After more than 30 years of working with and in Asia I've learned how important face time and personal relationships are. I traveled to China once or twice a year to maintain the relationships. The units will be built and tested in India but delivered here as compressors with parts kit from the full build in India for EPA requirements.

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Lister Market Place (things for Sale) / Re: New Listeroids for sale
« on: May 13, 2019, 06:35:56 PM »
Bare crackcase is better still, since slapping chaulky filler and epoxy over sand filled voids is well within Rajkot standards. Nothing you are attempting regarding Rajkot has not been tried before.  They are incapable of maintaining any sort of quality control from one batch to the next.  An honest seller would sell them as a kit of parts to be inspected carefully during the build, and replaced as needed.  You should remove the 50,000 hrs, it makes you seem either naive or a con man.

Iíve been doing this for 25 years and I know what works when importing equipment from the developing world. You are correct, delivering on specific quality metrics is a problem with hand built machines. Thatís why Iím not asking for specific quality metrics. Iím asking for simple procedures during the build that embed the quality factors Iím looking for. That can be consistently done. If the inside of the crankcase is cleaned and painted with a heavy epoxy paint you arenít going to have a problem with sand. I havenít found a sand problem with a Listeroid in the 5 or so years Iíve been doing this. As far as communicating my needs to the vendor, I ask for consistency with a clear and honest understanding that the next order is always dependent on the last order. In the 25 years I imported diesel engines and other equipment from China, that was the understanding and I was never disappointed. If however you are a one-off buyer that understanding does not apply. Iím not a one-off buyer. Indian businessmen are as pragmatic as anyone else. They want repeat business.
As far as being an ďhonest sellerĒ, my products are warrantied. If you have a problem Iíll make good on fixing it, whatever it takes.
As far as the 50,000 hrs. These engines are built like tanks. I have Chinese diesels that I bought back in the 90ís and they are still working hard. Not only have none of them broken, they hardly even leak. These engines were designed mostly in the 30ís while Listers were designed even earlier and are even more over-designed for durability. Iíve read that Listers were designed for a 50,000 hr. MTBF and that wouldnít surprise me.
Most customers donít want to build from parts, thatís why they buy pre-built and tested units like mine. Itís my belief that doing what I do yields the same or better customer satisfaction than building from a bare crankcase would with a lot less time and aggravation.

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Lister Market Place (things for Sale) / Re: New Listeroids for sale
« on: May 06, 2019, 02:59:51 AM »

Mike 90045


What will the change-over kit consist of ?  new camshaft?
          Same Cam. "Accessory" kit includes pump, lines, tank, injector etc.

What is the oiling system  Splash or pump & splash ?
          Pump and Splash

What grade sand is included in the internal paint pockets #20 ?  #40 ?
         The interiors of the crankcases are steam cleaned and painted with epoxy paint before the build. Haven't found any loose sand yet,    

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Lister Market Place (things for Sale) / New Listeroids for sale
« on: May 05, 2019, 08:17:31 PM »
Hello All,

        We're ramping up importing new Listeroids configured as compressors. These will have all available upgrades including bronze idler gears, water pumps, thermostats and Bendix gear starters. We will be offering custom steel "C" channel frames and ST or Stanford power heads with control boxes, if requested. We are located in Massachusetts in the US. We will deliver locally in New England and drop ship anywhere else in the US. We are looking at the next load for delivery in mid-July this year. This forum is active with folks looking for Listeroids so I thought I'd post and see if any forum participants are interested in ordering from the next load?  http://www.boltonpowerequip.com  Please feel free to post here or drop us a note on the Website.

Best
Graham
Bolton Power Equipment

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