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Messages - Hugh Conway

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1
Listeroid Engines / Re: Knocking, now what?
« on: February 15, 2024, 12:28:15 AM »
Ahhh Butch,

You are, as always, a fountain of valuable information!
Have you tried this method yourself?
 
Thanks again!

Cheers
Hugh

2
Listeroid Engines / Re: Knocking, now what?
« on: February 13, 2024, 10:43:48 PM »
38AC to the rescue!!!
I suspected that it was at least one key, and the same one as you thought. Yesterday, I was out of energy and ideas though.
This morning, I tried your method, and it worked! As you said, I withdrew the keys, pushed them in as far as possible and rocked the wheels in opposite directions. I did this with one key at a time. The culprit was the side opposite the injector pump. The other key was OK.
I had some some metal roof flashing in the shop, .012" thick to make a shim for the crankshaft keyway bed. Reinstalled the key with the shim and started the engine. The knock was not eliminated, but very much reduced.......on the right track!
That is the same flywheel with an over-width keyway. On the old damaged crankshaft the shaft keyway was also over-width.  I had corrected that 12 years ago with shims made of steel from a broken tape measure blade cut to the taper of the Gib key, then installed along the side of the  keyways. That worked.

This new crankshaft actually has proper width keyways on both ends, the Gibs are a very nice fit into the keyways. That left the one flywheel with a .017+" wider keyway. When I installed the suggested shim under the key in question, I also carefully cut two  shims tapered to the profile of the upper half of the key. With the crank and wheel positioned with keyways to the side, I was able to work the shims into the .017" between the upper half of the side of the key and the side of the wheel keyway. Tapped the key home and started the engine.
OH Joy! The knock is gone!!! Ran under load for an hour, and will do so again this afternoon. So far all is good.

I am now thinking that I will get a new set of keys and as a more permanent solution, try carbon-rod's solution of weld build-up at the side of a key, then machine for a proper fit. ( https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=6547.msg75154#msg75154 ) I will have to arrange a bit of work with a shop to mill this for me, but at this point, I have some time...........as long as the temporary side shimming works.
I am sure open to any other more permanent solutions.

I thought of maybe spraying the whole flywheel and shaft end with salt water and let it corrode into a solid mass...................well, maybe not.

So, at the very least, the source of the knock has been located and temporarily repaired. The previously mentioned shim repair (of 12 years ago held up nicely for all that time..
 
Thank you again Butch for keeping me on track. This is not the first time your seemingly small tips (gathered by long experience) have made a huge difference in keeping my off-grid power system operating. As well, your balancing method was easy and very effective. Wish I had known and done it 12 years ago!

Cheers
Hugh

3
Listeroid Engines / Re: Knocking, now what?
« on: February 13, 2024, 12:17:09 AM »
Hello Ed
Have not seen you around these parts in quite a while!
Oh, I wish it was mud wasps! Same fuel as before. It sounded & ran fine for about 8 hours.
I am fairly convinced it IS a key that does not fit  but I don't seem to be able to make any difference.
The felt tipped pen looking for high spots and filing them down until I get a pretty good contact along the whole length of the top of the key.
On the suspect flywheel, the key goes in nearly all the way. One can see the end of the Gib just peeking out of the inside end of the keyway.
On the other flywheel, the key head is about 3/4" from the flywheel boss. Both keys require a light tap on a brass drift to run them in, then they quickly take up as they near the end of their travel. Both keys are take a bit of effort to draw them back about 3/8", then they come right out.
Here's  youtube link that illustrates the sound. This is from a member (carbon rod) back in 2012)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgWt2sxhUTA
Same kind of problem here. I don't have the ability (skill or equipment) to weld up and machine for a solution as he did, but I have resolved this kind of problem previously with shimming. this time, I am having no success after several tries at it.
I'm done for today, tomorrow, back at it.
Fortunately there are a few sunny days ahead, so my solar panels are filling up the batteries, and the generator is thankfully not required. I had better get it fixed before the clouds/rain start again!
Cheers
Hugh

4
Listeroid Engines / Knocking, now what?
« on: February 12, 2024, 10:45:02 PM »
So, at the conclusion of the previous thread (Spun the rod bearing) I replied to keith71 with my repair update.
Without going into detail again, after about 8 hours of run-in over a few days, a loud knock suddenly appeared.
My first thought was "check the keys" They seemed OK, I spent a lot of time fitting new ones and they fit pretty well.
Pulled keys out and did a fitting check with a sharpie, nice contact along the tops of both keys.
One flywheel has a wider keyway, about .012" wider than the Gib, although the Gib fits nicely into the crank keyway. I shimmed the side of the wheel keyway on installation of the key, good fit, as far as I can tell.
I then pulled the bottom end to check the rod bearing again. Clearance was less than .003",  re torqued. Everything rotated smoothly and felt good.
Restart ..........no joy. Same loud knocking sound. If fuel is cut, the knock disappears. I would think that the problem is an improperly fitted key, but maybe not, as I have fitted them as well as I am able, and I'm sure the fitting is better than I did 12 years ago.
Maybe timing? I don't know if this would cause the problem.  The flywheel timing mark shows the correct position relative to the "creak" I did not change anything there from before the original sand damage.
Any ideas? I am out.
Assume I know nothing........that's how I am feeling this afternoon!
Cheers
Hugh

5
Listeroid Engines / Re: Spun the rod bearing, CRANKSHAFT is FUBAR
« on: February 12, 2024, 10:21:00 PM »
@ keith71
Thanks for asking.  As for the weather.......it's warmed up considerably: 8*C this afternoon and full sun. Solar panels have given us a full charge. That part is good.
As for progress, Well it went quite well......for a while.
Since I had it all apart, I decided to try balancing the wheels using the 38AC method. That worked quite well.
The new TRBs were a very light drive fit onto the crank. Got the crank installed with the proper end play by adjusting the shimming.
I was able to get some plastigauge to fit the rod bearing. Some of the wrist pins that I've seen are a bit sloppy, but in this case, i used a new piston, wrist pin, and a new rod too. The wrist pin was a nice tight fit in both small end bush. Set up the bump to .075".
Reinstalled the wheels using new Gib keys. Spent a lot of time fitting them. The new crank actually had the keyways cut so the keys were a snug fit rather than the bit of slop with the old crankshaft.
Hoisted the engine back onto it's bed and bolted it down. squirted a lot of oil onto the bearings, rod, cylinder sleeve and cranked it over with the starter for a while before adding fuel. It started right up and ran very smoothly..........the proverbial glass of water actually stayed on the valve cover at full RPM !!!!
I was a happy camper. Ran it for about 8 hours over the next few days.
Then the trouble.......
See my next post: Bag of hammers,

Cheers
Hugh

6
Lister Based Generators / Re: 1925 Lister 2T and Generator
« on: February 10, 2024, 05:13:25 PM »

7
Listeroid Engines / Re: Spun the rod bearing, CRANKSHAFT is FUBAR
« on: January 27, 2024, 09:54:18 PM »
Thanks for that tip Bruce, we do have Al foil and a 1" micrometer to substitute for plastigauge.

The new crank arrived yesterday afternoon. It was well packaged and greased up for corrosion proofing.
cleaning it up, I saw that the crank throw parts were painted black and a bit rough. A curious go with a scraper revealed.......guess what.......
Casting sand beneath the paint!!!!!
A bit of work with a wire wheel and a dremel to get into the hard to reach parts has it down to bare metal now.
They like their sand!
Cheers
Hugh

8
Good morning Daumer
You might try contacting Jim Calder at justliveoffgrid.com/
He's in Canada, just north of you. Has sold several  "air compressors" to customers in the U.S.
Jim may be able to provide them, or have the connections to import.
Worth a try.
Cheers
Hugh

9
Listeroid Engines / Re: Spun the rod bearing, CRANKSHAFT is FUBAR
« on: January 21, 2024, 10:52:54 PM »
Moving along......the wheels are off, the crank removed, crankcase flushed out several times. Removed parts are well cleaned and wrapped up awaiting assembly. That bit is completed.

I fitted the new cylinder liner and found .018" liner protrusion. My hand operated milling machine and about an hour and a half of work brought it down to .003" all around even when rotating the sleeve and measuring in various positions. It's amazing that some careful draw filing can give an adequate polish and workable result. The cylinder itself is quite flat according to my straight edge.

Now then, to fit the main rod bearing....I don't have the new crank as yet, but want to be ready when it comes.  I have a new con rod and bearing shells. How does one find the correct rod bearing to crank journal clearance without using plastigage? Keeping in mind my limited tools (no micrometer, for instance) what did the old timers do?

I've been reading over 38AC's most excellent 60 + pages of listeroid tear down and rebuild instructions. There's a fantastic amount of good information provided, what a pleasure it would be to have the knowledge, experience and machinery. You can guess that my tool availability working conditions are on the "shade tree" side: My abilities are not much better, but his detailed descriptions of the work sure do help.

Oh, and it has warmed up considerably, snow is melting away and the Pacific Coast rain has returned.

Cheers
Hugh

10
Listeroid Engines / Re: Spun the rod bearing, CRANKSHAFT is FUBAR
« on: January 19, 2024, 12:37:49 AM »
The wheels came off.......not a bad thing in this case.
It took a combination of everything. The first one was the most difficult.
  I had to use a bit of chain and a jackscrew......No bottle jack was readily available (thanks Stef), a friend has one, but the continuing snow has made it not possible to get to his place on the mountain. The jackscrew was from parts of a large gear puller. A 3 foot pipe over a large wrench provided the torque, and it didn't come off easily.....either one of them. They had to be wound off nearly all the way to the end of the crank. I didn't mind that a bit, just so long as they did come off.

I had tried the 2X4 + rocking method previously without success but it worked to loosen up the 2nd wheel, then the chain and screw took it the rest of the way. Yesterday I did try heat and ATF without success. This morning I gave it another try. The overnight soak with ATF probably helped a lot. When the first wheel moved just a tiny bit, I knew we would have success.....just a matter of time.

For the 2nd wheel I tried Bob's rocking method again. It didn't help on the first wheel, but did on the 2nd one, I could see that the keyways went out of alignment after several back and forths. Inertia can do wonders. Thanks for that one Bob. Anyway, its drinks all around this afternoon. I will eventually get this damaged crank to a machine shop. Maybe it can be reground. If so, a few sets of the proper bearings for the undersized are apparently available, so I will have a spare!

Now, it's just clean up, prep, and wait for the parts to arrive, hopefully next week!

As for parts, I've collected a pretty good stock of most items. DEV supplied some, and is a good source, but it takes a long time to get from India to here, then there is the additional delay while brokerage, customs fees and taxes are determined. I have usually had to use the tracking number to find out where the shipment gets stuck, light a fire and finally get them to forward it on. No fault of DEV, its the Canada bureaucracy. Here in Canada, my go to guy for parts is Jim Caldwell justliveoffgrid.com he's in Ontario, a long way, but at least no international borders to cross. I also use stationaryengineparts.com in U.K for those small or hard to find parts.

Thanks again for all of your suggestions and assistance.
I will be back to either ask more, or report on progress.
Shovelling snow tomorrow!

Cheers
Hugh

11
Listeroid Engines / Re: Spun the rod bearing, CRANKSHAFT is FUBAR
« on: January 18, 2024, 03:34:32 AM »
Today I lifted the crankcase  and lower end off the engine mounting and relocated it to a more convenient place so the flywheels could be removed.
Gibb keys were easily withdrawn. The wheels seem welded to the crank.........crap!
A very large gear puller brought no joy. Same with a heavy sleeve over the shaft and a 10 lb sledge.
Heating and repeating with sledge same result. Soaked it all in ATF/solvent. Will try again tomorrow.
If I can get them to move at all, I will get them off.

I suppose worst case is to cut off the shaft between the TRB carriers and the wheels. A bit drastic, but maybe last resort. I will work on it a lot more before going that route!

At least the weather is warming up.......it got warm enough to snow, so it did.

Cheers
Hugh

12
Listeroid Engines / Re: Spun the rod bearing, CRANKSHAFT is FUBAR
« on: January 14, 2024, 12:35:24 AM »
Thank you all for the suggestions.
I have found a new crankshaft. Jim Calder of justliveoffgrid.com has a pretty good stock of parts. He is in Ontario. It's a long way to the west coast, and shipping is costly. It's a lot more expensive to source from out of country, say U.S. U.K. or India. They sock you with all sorts of brokerage fees, duties, and taxes in addition to the shipping costs.
Cujet' s suggestion re Ohio crank may be a way to rescue a damaged crank, the the two-way cross border shipping to the other side of the continent would be pricey.
There is a good machine shop available on Vancouver Island, but even that is a day's travel to get there.
I will eventually take some photos of the damaged parts. I would bet that the crank is not economically repairable.....it's not scratched, it is heavily and deeply gouged. The bearing seized on the crank then broke loose. it even did that after taking off the head and rotating the the crank. the inner surface of the rod is even a bit scored, though that is probably reusable. I am fitting everything new though. Crank, TRBs, piston & rings, cylinder, etc.
I am waiting for temperatures to warm up closer to freezing before doing any more tear down. It's been -17*C here the last few days. Hard on the fingers.
Cheers
Hugh

13
Listeroid Engines / Re: Spun the rod bearing, CRANKSHAFT is FUBAR
« on: January 11, 2024, 03:50:00 AM »
Good evening Powder
TRB = Tapered Roller Bearings.
The real Dursley Listers used sleeve bearings on the crankshaft mains.
The Indian manufacturers redesign replaced them with TRBs.
I have not removed or installed them before so any tips are appreciated.
Cheers
Hugh

14
Hello Alex
Very generous offer from you!
I'm on the other side of the world, so won't be driving over pick it up.
It appears be in reasonable condition for refurbishing.....we've seen a lot worse here on the forum that were resurrected.
Hope you can find someone who will take it home and put it back in service!
Cheers
Hugh

15
Listeroid Engines / Spun the rod bearing, CRANKSHAFT is FUBAR
« on: January 11, 2024, 12:14:19 AM »
Not fun when off-grid in mid-winter Canada.

Time on engine: about 3500 hours. It's operated well until this suddenly happened.

Found the culprit.......the old bugaboo of casting sand under the head of the piston. A chunk let go........
When new, I tore the whole thing down, cleaned the sand out of the crevices, did a pretty good job of cleaning up the crankcase, but never looked under the piston.

Looks like a chunk recently broke free and went right to the rod bearing with the expected result.


Just pulled the engine down, the crankshaft is hooped beyond any easy repair.
Looks like the bearing seized on the crank, then spun in the rod, then came loose tore up the crank journal some more, this probably happened a few times, looking at the damage.

Of course, I have all the spares on hand EXCEPT a new crank.

My immediate issue is removing the old one.
Tomorrow I will try removing the TRB carriers, then the shaft.
What should I look out for during removal?

Then the replacement: How are the new TRBs installed on the crank?

Once the  new crank has the new bearings installed, and are properly in place, I know how to shim up the carriers, and have shims, just don't have any experience with installing the TRBs on the shaft.

Any advice welcomed.....please!.....

Cheers
Hugh


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