Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: BruceM on December 31, 2005, 08:11:20 PM
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I'm interested in this topic and wanted to pass along some links to fwmurphy.com that Shipchief (Scott) suggested that I thought were fantastic:
Here's a vibration sensor
http://www.fwmurphy.com/products/vibration_time_overspeed/vs2.htm
Here's an oil level switch/guage
http://www.fwmurphy.com/products/fluid_level/l100_l120_l127_l128.htm
Here's a diesel engine "rack puller" (shut down, spring loaded)
http://www.fwmurphy.com/products/engine_motor/rp75.htm
And a temperature switch/guage:
http://www.fwmurphy.com/products/temperature/20t_25t.htm
I'll report back when I find some pricing on these.
Bruce McCreary
Metro 6/1 (2000 vintage, aged in the crate)
Snowflake, AZ
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Bruce,
I'm afraid the prices might scare us all..... :o
dan k
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I think the Murphy page has alot of good ideas that DoItYourSelfers could 'snitch' and make from stuff that you find for as close to free as possible.
It's not really stealing....8)
Scott E
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The temp/switch gauge would be a nice thing to have and could be used with a very simple battery operated allam so that it would sound when/if the temp spikes. Since a rising temp can indicate a number of ills( low oil, low coolant) this would be a nice feature to have.
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I looked arround o the web and found a price of $176 for the temp gauge....A little pricey for me. Perhaps a simpler one mounted to the head would be better (cheaper) though an audible alarm would be a nice feature. It would be nice to know what it is actually running at.
Morgan
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You can build an overheat alarm out of an $8-$12 automobile idiot light switch. Don't buy the temperature guage sending unit. You want one that closes at a certain temperature, say 230*F. The auto parts stores that still have paper catalogs around can help you get the exact switch specifications. Simple twelve volt circuit to an alarm and a fuel shutoff solenoid and your done.
Of course I am more talk than action. Bought the switch haven't made the system. I am thinking of drilling and tapping the head between the water outlet and the compression changeover valve hole. Anyone had the guts to try it yet?
Scott
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Thanks for finding that price, Morgan. It seems a bit much to me, also. I'll be the oil and vibration sensors are equally precious. I'd love to get my hands on the motion sensor to see how it's made.
Guess I'll homebrew the auto shut down. I do like the rack shut off spring with a solenoid trigger approach that Murphy uses. This seems a situation where our resident master gunsmith might have some thoughts on the spring triggering/reset mechanism.
Any body found a nice 12V DC solenoid with some balls? I bought one from Jameco and was pretty disappointed; the force listed was apparently only at 0.01mm from full retraction, as at 0.2" it was useless.
Thanks for your post Scott. What part temp switch did you find and what's the threaded hole size?
How about drilling/threading the pipe after the thermostat?
Bruce
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I was thinking about using a 12v starter solonoid from a GM car. It's used to pull the bendix and engage the main switch for the motor, so it has plenty of force.
I was planning to use it for a trip type shutdown. It would be normaly NOT ENERGIZED until the shutdown condition (like high temp) ENERGIZES it to pull the trigger out of a spring operated shutdown. Once the trigger is pulled, the solonoid circuit is OPENED.
All the sensor switches would be N.O. and the one that closes for the sutdown condition will pass the 12 volts to the solonoid. When the solonoid pulls the trigger, it opens a switch to DE ENERGIZE the solonoid to save the battery and prevent damage to the solonoid. Standard pressure and temp switched are available thru your auto parts store, VDO, Stewart Warner, Hobbs, etc.
Simple / cheap. ;D
Scott E
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I hadn't thought of an auto starter solenoid. That should have way more than enough force!
I'll see what I can find at my NAPA store. Thanks, Scott.
Surplus Center has one 12v solenoid which looks like it could possibly do the trick for a rack spring trigger release:. 6 lbs max, 3/4" throw. $12.
Does anyone know of an automotive oil level sensor that might be adapted to our needs?
Best Wishes,
Bruce
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McMaster.com has both vertical and horizontal "slosh proof" polypropylene flued level switches.
The horizontal unit requires a 1" hole- I'm not thrilled at the prospect of drilling a huge hole just below the oil level to find out if they can manage with splash lube.
Plan B: tap into the drain plug with a tee, and make an outboard oil "sump", just like the Murphy oil guage/sensor.
The McMaster has vertical bracket mount switches ("slosh guard") that might be mounted in the sump ($80.) with just a wire lead to be sealed. But horizontal switches are as cheap as $13 ea., $28 with "slosh guard".
Bruce
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FW Murphy sensor/switch pricing:
Here are some prices from murcal.com
L100- (Oil level guage and high/low switches) $58.50
RP75- Diesel rack puller (30 lbs pull) $205.75
VS2- Vibration Sensor $102.25
TM4594 DC Hour meter, low current $37.50
The rack puller is out, but the L100 and VS2 look OK to me, price wise. The L100 has two level switches, high and low (high for coolant leaking in the oil). The VS2 is a 3 axis vibration switch that is adjustable in all three axis. So if something should start to vibrate in my absence...
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I took some measurements and thought more about a homemade Lister 6/1 rack puller today.
I see three options:
1. I could just fit a sliding flat steel arm behind my MICO oil filter using the two lower oil filter bolts that now aren't used and it would come out and around the rack pin (L shaped arm)- and could be pulled from the other end. About 15 lbs of force is needed to securely get a shut down. I didn't measure but it's less than an inch of throw. There would be plenty of room for a spring trigger solenoid on the far end, and cocking the spring could be done by just pulling the lever out from the IP rack pin.
2. My throttle linkage has a detent and round bushing cast into the arm above where the governor hook is mounted. This may have been an auto shut down connection at one time. it would take a push of about 20 lbs, only 3/8" of throw. There's no practical way I can see to get a pull here, because of the linkage configuration, and a lever would be needed to cock the spring.
3. A cable to a hole in the lever arm of the existing shut down lever/cam would take about 8 lbs of force and a few inches of throw. The routing of the cable is tricky- not ideal but possible to route some flex cable above the fuel filter. It's not a straight pull, so some more force will be needed.
I'll play around soon with these options and see what seems best to me. Suggestions welcomed!
Bruce
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I believe the best option for solenoid triggered, spring powered shut down is to have a solenoid release the governor spring, adding very light spring between the mounting bolt on the IP to the linkage arm to assist in holding the rack closed when the engine speed is nearly zip.
That said, I'm wondering if a solenoid valve in the fuel supply line would do the trick? This would be a nice simple solution that would lend itself better to auto starts.
Will closing the fuel line before the filter result in a fairly fast shut down?
Bruce
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No.
The two accepted ways to shut down an engine in a hurry:
1) Close the fuel injection rack
2) Shut off the intake air
The fuel supply shut off valve will eventually shut the engine down, but you would get a prolonged 'brown out' that could damage your refrigerator or computer.
They are included in ship's fire protection systems, usually manually, and may be used also for CO2 flooding of the engine room.They are not usually used for overspeed trips, low oil pressure shutdowns, high coolant temp. Although the unusual Cummins PT fuel system sometimes uses it.
Nowadays, the power is cut off from the engine managment computer, and the fuel injector solonoids stop working, then the engine quits. (same as forcing down the fuel injection rack)
My worn out lister petter would continue to run with a pipe plug threaded into the intake port on the head, so it must have been sucking air out of the engine crankcase, up past the rings! :o
You could continue to design a bracket that bolts onto the standard fuel filter pad. That would be a universal trip with links, springs, trigger, solonoid and isolation switch to allow start up, and de-energise after a shutdown has occured. Would work on singles and twins :D
Scott E
P.S. your banjo bolt experience caused me to pick up a pair of George's custom ones as on your photo. I'm trying the steel ones. Makes it easy to upgrade to hose or tube fittings from the auto parts store when upgrading to a decent fuel filter (remote mounted to make room for that trip device you are designing ;))
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Update on two items:
Releasing the governor spring on my 6/1 does a nice fast shutdown, no extra spring required. The governor pushes the rack all the way in immediately and it stays there. A solenoid release for this spring attachment at the engine block seems like the best spring powered approach- no overpowering of the governor spring needed.
Pinching off the fuel line within a few inches of the injection pump (IP) causes an immediate shut down (fast as above). It apparently causes immediate cavitaton and no fuel. Greasel sells a 12VDC fuel line valve (FSV 1 $38.50) which could be used:
http://www.greasel.com/Individual-Components.html
Pinching off the fuel line before the fuel filter doesn't work, the fuel line must be closed just before the IP.
I'll have to sleep on it but a solenoid type valve seems to win the KISS prize, and could do remote starting for me someday if needed.
Steve-
Try a bleed screw on your new banjo- it really works great. Air comes out- IP starts working nicely without complaint. On my IP otherwise, the banjo bolt must be loosened or the IP cavitates (the side bleed screw is not effective), but then there is some air that must be pumped out the hard way.
I filed a flat spot on George's brass fitting, drilled and tapped for an 8/32 screw, filed a flat on one side of the threads to allow better bleed air path, and use a small O ring for a gasket( till I can find something better).
Best Wishes,
Bruce
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Peace&Love :D, Darren
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Thanks, kyradawg, Summit does have some kick ass solenoids. Here's a 35 lb pull one:
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=door+pull+solenoid&x=0&y=0&searchinresults=false&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&N=115&target=egnsearch.asp
They also have nitrous vavles which could be used as a fuel shutoff.
And thanks for the brake fluid sensor suggestion, too.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
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Cool;
That door solonoid looks like the most painless adaption for our trigger release. How many more door parts might work? (stroke of genius)
Bruce, you suggest connecting the release to the fixed end of the governor spring? that would put the solonoid on the center of the block fairly close to the crankshaft. Perhaps there will be less vibration there than higher up by the injector pump lever? Wouldn't want it to shake apart.
I love this forum.
Scott E
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Scott, Yes, I would put the solenoid release for the governor spring at the fixed end. This is a good location, vibration wise, and the governor ends up doing the shut down work for you. You have to design an easy to build trigger release mechanism via door solenoid and share it here!
Other thoughts: if the shut down is only for overtemp/low oil emergency shut down, just put a slow blow fuse on it. Then it will turn itself off, no latching turn off relay or timer relay required. A more crazy thought: if you use a starter solenoid (high current DC contactor) triggered by your overtemp and/or oil sensor, you could use a "fuseable wire" to hold the spring, and just "blow it" with the starter solenoid; no mechanical solenoid required. The wire holder could be a screw terminal strip of some sort.
For my application, I am going with a fuel shut off valve right before the IP. This makes remote/hands off starting easier if down the road my MS should make that neccessary. (No spring trigger to reset.) For my application the fuel shut off valve does require a timer relay or a 555 timer and power Mosfet circuit to hold fuel off long enough for the engine to coast to a stop, since I need a normally open valve. I don't want to drain the battery holding the valve open when I'm only pumping air and not running the generator head.
Bruce
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Scott, Yes, I would put the solenoid release for the governor spring at the fixed end. This is a good location, vibration wise, and the governor ends up doing the shut down work for you. You have to design an easy to build trigger release mechanism via door solenoid and share it here!
Other thoughts: if the shut down is only for overtemp/low oil emergency shut down, just put a slow blow fuse on it. Then it will turn itself off, no latching turn off relay or timer relay required. A more crazy thought: if you use a starter solenoid (high current DC contactor) triggered by your overtemp and/or oil sensor, you could use a "fuseable wire" to hold the spring, and just "blow it" with the starter solenoid; no mechanical solenoid required. The wire holder could be a screw terminal strip of some sort.
For my application, I am going with a fuel shut off valve right before the IP. This makes remote/hands off starting easier if down the road my MS should make that neccessary. (No spring trigger to reset.) For my application the fuel shut off valve does require a timer relay or a 555 timer and power Mosfet circuit to hold fuel off long enough for the engine to coast to a stop, since I need a normally open valve. I don't want to drain the battery holding the valve open when I'm only pumping air and not running the generator head.
Bruce
Bruce
I would avoid cutting the fuel to the IP for two reasons, first the pump is lubed by the fuel and and can be damaged by running without it and second you will be very surprises at how long the engine will run with just the fuel in the pump.
A faster and safer option is to pull the rack. One that note I have 2 car door lock motors (left over from my last car) to offer for shipping cost only. If my memory serves they stop drawing power when they reach each end of travel and stay there untill you reverse the current.
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Hi you guys,
I am blown away following your input and solutions for the auto "shut down" and protection of the listers unattended. I did put the $ down on a new 12/2 to be delivered in the Spring and meantime I am subscribed to your "Total Immersion" course contained in these posts. When I left a few hrs ago, we were here,
Thanks for your post Scott. What part temp switch did you find and what's the threaded hole size?
How about drilling/threading the pipe after the thermostat?
Bruce
Now I have a few new pages of input to catch up on.....Blows me away.
Here is my solution to the Temp. problem & the Alert Alarm system which I stumbled accross.
http://www.biofuels.coop/tanks.shtml
Steam Whistles
I have brand new steam whistles for sale and in kit form. The sound from these single note whistles is deafening up close. They will blow on air or steam (steam has a nicer sound. More mellow )
The pictures speak for themselves.
Complete whistles with valve are $300 Kit form is $120
Kits come with a complete valve, castings and all bar and tube stock.. Bar stock and tube are rough cut to length with some over run .
Blueprints provided with kit.
Bruce, I suppose it could also be threaded to the pipe after the thermostat. It did seem a bit pricy for the simple task it must preform!
but worth considering with your Genshed over that hill & the added touch of Brass!
Now you know where I'm coming from and the considerable amount I have yet to learn before spinning that flywheel for the 1st time.
Keep the info coming and I will get there.
binnie.
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N2toh, I was also dubious about a fuel shutoff valve, but pinching off the rubber hose just before the IP does in fact work, immediately; no more injector clank, no more firing, instantly. There is no run on, the pump is not run dry, it just cavitates from lack of fuel in.
If I let the engine coast to almost stopping, releasing the pinch on the hose (needle nose vise grips are invaluable as hose closers) immediately restarts the engine on the next compression stroke. So there isn't air getting in the IP, and it shouldn't adversely affect the next start up.
I asked George B's opinion on the matter and he thought there was probably no harm done to the IP.
Thanks for the offer of the electric door lock mechanism, though. That was very thoughful!
Binnie, I couldn't follow your link to anything like a steam whistle. A steam whistle radiator cap (blows when venting excess pressure) is such a neat idea, I wonder if someone makes them?!
Bruce
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Try:
http://www.egauges.com/vdo_sgrp.asp?Subgroup=Switches
For pressure switches and temperature switches, I have no commercial interest, but have successfully purchased gauge sensors and pyrometers from them.
Scott E
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Scott, Thanks for the great source. Their temperature switches look like just what I need.
Suggestions for an appropriate temperature (over temp shut down) for a switch mounted in the upper coolant pipe just after the thermostat would be appreciated. I'll be operating the engine at 5600 ft elevation on 50/50 antifreeze and about 5 psi pressure. I was thinking the 225 degree 1/4" NPT unit would be about right, but maybe that's too high for such low pressure.
Bruce
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I would reccomend the 212, and place it before the thermostat, that way a stuck thermostat would be detected. Then try to run about 200, use a 190 thermostat for a start.
Scott E
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Scott- I agree the over temp switch before the thermostat would be best, but I was reluctant to
bore into the water jacket. I'll have to look into that. Saving the engine from a stuck thermostat makes a lot of sence.
Thanks for the temperature advise!
Bruce
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Bruce;
Check Mac Mcquaid's:
http://www.cybernet1.com/mcquaid/GenSets.htm
He uses and extension pipe from the head to the coolant thermostat, for a veggie fuel heater, but we could easily mount the thermal switch in such an extension. It looks easy.
I was thinking the hot coolant would make a fine oil temp regulator too. these kinds of heat exchangers could be 'after' the thermostat.
Scott E
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Peace&Love :D, Darren
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Thanks for the link, Scott. Mac Mcquaid's extension on the upper coolant flange looks like just what I need to mount the thermostat switch. I'll pull my flange tomorrow and take some measurements. Wish I had a metal lathe!
Thanks for temp switch tip, kyradawg.
I ordered the 12v fuel shut off valve from Greasel today. If it works as well as pinching the hose, my remote/auto shutdown situation is halfway there.
Bruce
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BruceM,
I did the same thing as Mac Mcquaid with the upper coolant flange, the thermostat that worked for me was a Federated brand part #207-192.
Hope this number helps!
Copybell
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Copybell, what did you use for the extension between the head and flange?
Bruce
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Some info: the extension ring needed to insert a thermostat switch (3/8 NPT is the most common) is 2.5" OD, about 1.5-1.75" ID. This would have to be machined, and I don't have access to a metal lathe.
There is a flat spot on the head right above the hot water outlet, perhaps this could be drilled and tapped?
Since this flat spot on the head is so near the coolant, another thought is to use an adjustable snap disk epoxy'd or siiliconed to the head. Graingers 4E120 has a range of 210 to 250 F, $19.40.
Any thoughts about using head temperature instead of coolant???
Bruce
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n
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y
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This might be might work too. I use something like to measure the temperature of oil in some older transformers where I work. The main idea here is you have two sets of contacts the lower contact give you an alarm the up range contact shuts you down.
http://www2.jumo.de/produkte/PL60/60.8501/pdf/T60.8501gb.pdf
Doug
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Open on rise isn't a problem since I have to add some simple electronics (CMOS 555 timer) to close the fuel valve (greasel) for 15 seconds or so to wait for the engine to coast to a stop.
I'm not sure how well the adjustable snap disc thermostat will hold up to the vibration, but it might be worth a try. The simpler and cheaper fixed temp bimetal switches might hold up better since they have less mass and are sealed.. Therm-o-disc type 36T's would be nice if I could find one the right temperature.
Bruce
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Darren
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Thats funny that u mention greasel I soldered a water heater stat to control heating water on my veggie tank on my f250 diesel before I started running straight un-heated wvo. I came up with a neat filtering idea ifins you like to know?
Darren
I'm interested in any aspect of veg oil filtering, especially novel ways to filter during the winter. best thing I found so far is to pickup the oil hot and filter before it cools, kinda sucks thou as I have to make two trips a week.
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BruceM,
I used a piece of pipe bettween the flange and cylinder head. The thermostat fit right inside the pipe.
Copybell
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Please do tell on any info on filtering the grease in cold temps....
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Talk to these guys http://www.hillsidewirecloth.com/custfab.html
they will make one that will hang on the side at different levels of a 5 gallon bucket.
specifiy the dutch weave wire cloth in 459x2750 cpi that will give you a micron rating of .8-1.5 nominal and 6-7 absolute. If I remember right it was around $180. The cool thing is the oil is ready to pour into your tank right from your drain bucket! These are for directly from the fryer or after heating, on the cold tip your on your own. Peace&Love
Darren :D
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Talk to these guyshttp://www.hillsidewirecloth.com/custfab.html
they will make one that will hang on the side at different levels of a 5 gallon bucket.
specifiy the dutch weave wire cloth in 459x2750 cpi that will give you a micron rating of .8-1.5 nominal and 6-7 absolute. If I remember right it was around $180. The cool thing is the oil is ready to pour into your tank right from your drain bucket! These are for directly from the fryer or after heating, on the cold tip your on your own. Peace&Love
Darren :D
Classic... they are just around the corner.
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I set up a tube sight (3/8" HDPE "milk tubing") on the Lister while fooling with my micro float switch. The tube ran from a T on the sump drain plug fiting to a 90 degree brass hose barb (1/4 NPT) located high on the left side corner of the crankcase (facing the breather vent door). There should be no problem with the HD polyethylene tubing since oil temps of 100 degrees were reported as the norm.
The oil level is very easy to see. There is no sloshing or oil droplets entering from the upper crankcase fitting with the engine on, and you can see the oil level drop about 1/2" as soon as the engine is running.
I'm now experimenting with a 1/4" ID 2.5" poly "capsule" (melted ends closed with small magnet inside), that can float inside a 1/2" ID sight tube, and trigger a micro magnetic reed switch zip tied to the outside of tube.
I also wanted to mention that I installed my adjustable water heater thermostat on the head just inside the valve cover. All that was needed was to clip off the thin aluminum mounting flange. I ground a dime sized flat spot and glued it on with epoxy steel. Both terminals are easily accessable and the spade terminals can be used. It looks like a winner to me. Here's a photo:
http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?pos=-99
Bruce
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I'm doing more swinging and missing today. :P
I hooked up the Greasel fuel shutoff valve in front of the IP, and it does not work. Tried pinching the hose off in various places, and found that the IP only shuts down (slowly now) with the hose pinched right before the IP. Just a few inches back and it struggles along at reduced speed for a quite a while. This is new- raising the compression to spec plus seems to make it want to run on vapors.
So Shipchief, you were right. I got fooled by a low compression engine that needed lots fuel to keep running.
Now I've got to relook at releasing the governor spring et al.
Bruce M
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Or have the shutdown solonoid hold the exhaust valve open....
That would kill it for sure. George B has a concept drawing of it on his site.
Scott E
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That's an interesting idea, Scott. It would also solve the decompression problem for future remote starting. One concern- any shutdown that doesn't shut off the fuel supply means a bunch of fuel squirted into the cylinder until the engine coasts to a stop. I want to use the shut down mechanism for regular remote shut downs. What do you think?
Bruce M
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when doing a shut down, remember to shut off the electric flow to your home or you could have your water pump on while your engine is cycling down and fry the pump
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There are circuit breakers with DC relays that can trip the breaker. You include it in your shutdown circuit. When you have a shutdown condition, use your 12VDC system to:
1) Pull the Fuel Rack
2) Decompress the engine
3) Trip the Circuit Breaker
Control it all from your Programmable Logic Controller ;)
Scott E
Actually, you could just use a switch(s)
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Thanks, Rocket for bringing up the issue of auto shut down with load still applied. That would not be nice to the submersible pump 200 feet down in my off grid homesite well.
I just bench tested the utimate in simplicity for emergency shut down. A thin brass wire which holds the fixed end of the governor spring. Applied 12 volts, snap, the spring is released. It doesn't seem to take much current, and the wire seems to fail in tension rather than vaporizing (no pop). I used an insulated screw terminal block to hold the two ends of the brass wire loop. I've previously tested releasing the governor spring with the engine running- it results in the rack being closed immediately.
Alas, it's not appropriate for remote shut down.
Yes, Scott, an imbedded processor would be a nice way to go for auto engine control. Saves a lot of logic and timing wiring. Alas, I have to work on some house plans and the house very soon!
Best Wishes,
Bruce
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SCORE! Thanks for that info guys! I just picked this up on the FleaBay. Not for my lister though, it'll autoswitch my veggie valve on my WVO pickup.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7587943006
John
6/1 GM-90
1982 Mazda B2200
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Hi Bruce,
What if instead of cutting the fuel flow before the pump, (which sounds problematic), you instead "vent" the high side (IP output) fuel pressure to the low side (IP suction)? In other words, tee in a bypass line around the IP with the solenoid valve in it, so the IP output pressure never reaches the "cracking" pressure of the injector when the valve is open? This would keep from having cavitation or run dry problems, and shouldn't ad air. :-\
Kevin
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I haven't seen any affordable solenoid valves rated for 2000 psi or more.
I'm going to go with a more conventional injection pump rack closer, either direct solenoid or air piston with solenoid vave.
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Nice find on Ebay, John.
You inspired me to look and I did find and buy a surplus Metrix vibration switch in an ebay store for $59.
Ever since Shipchief gave us the lead on Murphy engine controls, I've wanted a vibration switch for auto shutdown. It seems cheap insurance.
I checked on 35-45 lb force door pull solenoids- they aren't rated for more than a very short duration. And a puller is a bit of a pain so I opted for a Grainger single action, spring return 3/4" air cylinder with 1" extension. They're only 3.5 inches long. With 12V air valve it's under $50.
I'm going to mount the air piston on a bracket to the IP mounting bolt to just push straight on the end of the rack with a rubber? foot of some kind screwed on the output shaft. I'll use 1/4" OD PE tubing to the mini air valve. Eventually I can use a similar arrangement for the air starter "pressor" against the flywheel instead of the present springs, and again for the exhaust valve decompression lifter, too.
I'll post a picture and report on it when I've got it built and tested.
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Speaking as one that has wrestled several run-a-way engines into shutdown....it takes a lot to overcome the governor weights and get that fuel rack closed. You may want to wire in explosive bolts to separate the governor linkage. ;)
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Bruce, Hotater;
I agree that shutdowns are important, the consequences so serious.
Bruce, your rack closer, along with decompressor sound like winners. Combined with low oil level, High vibration, high head temp and possibly overspeed shutdowns, you are wisely leading the Listeroid way for the kind of safety I have to demonstrate to the US Coast Guard every year.
You may never need them, but you'll never be sorry you installed them, and you'll always be proud that you Did It Yourself.
I like Compressed air. We use it for starters and propulsion control. We use more PLC control nowadays, but the final control element is air for filling Eaton Clutches and initiating pitch of hydraulic controlled propellers.
I like posting with you guys, you get shit done. Send more pictures?
By the way, test those devices on a periodic schedule.
Scott E
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I got the parts for the pneumatic rack pusher today, and got it all hooked up. It works great. I've never used air piston type actuators before and they are nice- small, lightweight, cheap, with lots of selection for force and piston extension. I'll be using them for exhaust decompression and air starter motor engagement eventually (for remote starting).
Here's some photos and more info in the coppemine:
http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?pos=-128
http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?pos=-129
http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?pos=-130
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Very simple and clever....
Doug
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Peace&Love :D, Darren
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Thanks Darren,
The mounting bracket appears to be solid enough as is- 1/8" steel bar. If I see stress cracking down the road, I'll just weld in some webs at the bend.
I just looked up sprag clutches. Interesting clutch, interesting idea. It would allow the air motor and drive wheel to be fixed mount, though the starter rubber wheel would continue to ride on the flywheel after starting.
Any idea how much one of these for a 1/2" shaft might run?
Bruce
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www.bocabearings.com
Peace&Love :D, Darren
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Great info Darren. RCB081214 looks like it would do the job, I've got to contact Boca and find out what the torque rating is. I'm not sure if I like having the wheel in pressure contact with the flywheel all the time the engine is running. An air cylinder to press the wheel while air is supplied to the Gast motor seems straighforward and does not require another solenoid valve, just a $13 air cylinder.
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Peace&Love :D, Darren
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Google "Arrow Engines" and see their air powered starter.
Stan
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Here be there 12 electric starter.
http://www.arrowengine.com/media/990starter.pdf
__________
Andre' B.
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The rubber friction drive on the flywheel works well,there's no need to add a belt. I actually started with a belt during initial design testing and then when to the rubber wheel for simplicity.
Yes, I will automate the starting at some point. The sequence: Decompression piston activate, starter valve open, wait till up to cranking speed (or just wait), Decompression OFF, starter off when up to speed (or just wait). I haven't decided how to do engine rpms. A favorite thought is to put some reflectorized tape on the flywheel spokes, then use an IR emitter and photodiode and transistor. The time between pulses can be integrated to an analog rpm voltage level and compared to set levels for cranking speed, running speed, overspeed.
I'm an old computer geek and was embedding microprocessors in flight simulators back in the late 70's when a Z80 at 4 MHz was hot stuff. The sequencing and logic really calls for a simple processor chip, though a quad 555 timer chip and some logic would also suffice. The tachometer function could also be done digitally by the processor.
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Overspeed Trip:
I was thinking about this when Guyfawkes posted Runaways.
I'm thinking old technology here, instead of electronic pulse counters and computers. (just for fun ;) )
Old anolog car speedometers use Paramagnetic force. A copper disc rotates proportional to speed, which draws a magnet along in the direction of rotation. The magnet is connected to the spedometer needle and restrained by a spring, which gives linearity for the meter face.
I wonder if the iron flywheel would generate a reliable paramagnet force to pull a spring / magnet / switch. caliberated to snap and shutdown the engine?
If Iron does not have good paramagnetic properties, then the copper disc could be made and attached to the crankshaft.
Mechanical Shutdown switch: Synchrostart Corp. makes a rpm speed switch that relies on centirfugal force. It has an adjustable spring and plunger in the rotating element. when it reaches the setpoint, the centrifugal force overcomes the spring, and the plunger extends, tripping the switch. It must be manually reset.
Again, one could be built and mounted on the crankshaft. When the plunger pops out it would operate a simple switch.
The switch action then operates your personal shutdown scheme: rack closer, decompressor, air intake flapper, fuel valve...
Electronics offer more options from a single unit. (tach, overspeed trip, hours, rotations, duty cycle, integration with high temp or low oil press trips, starting sequence, data logging, ...who knows what else)
Scott E
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Scott, I had no idea that some old speedos used paramagnetic force or that it would work at such low rpms. I thought speedos were all steel cup turned by a multipoled magnet on the speedo shaft. Sounds like something I need to play with. Thanks!
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Scott....you can go to any autorwrecking yard and scrounge a little (1"x1"x1") black box from the trunk (usually drivers side very back) of any ford car that is the automatic fuel pump disable switch. This switch disables the pump when you get hit with a solid bump, preventing fire. It must be reset with a small red button on it. It works by having a small funnel shaped device inside it, with a small steel ball inside the funnel. When enough force is put on this object, it hits the top of the funnel which contains a micro-switch shutting down the power which is routed through it. I haven't thought out the mechanics of this little switch, but I bet some of the better minds than mine can come up with a way of attaching it to the flywheel or some other part on a listeoid to act as a shut off switch, when connected to a relay of some sort.
Stan
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motorcycle speedos often run off the front wheel, the electric (not electronic) and electric revcounters on many were generating 1 volt per 1000 rpm.
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Bruce;
It looks like your murphy vibration switch is on Ebaie (#7574607669) *if I read it right*
Scott E
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Thanks Scott, I just bought it. Too good of a deal (new explosion proof unit) to pass up on.
It's compatible with exploding bolts, Hotater! :)
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After reviewing the Start O Matic design (thanks Ken and Guy) I like the SOM approach of always inserting the decompression pin on shut down. Thus every shut down is good for emergency runaway shut down. This makes me want to redesign my valve lifter, as I don't think it would take years of that pounding as a good pin design should.
On a related subject: Giant scale model servoes could be used for both rack closer and decompression pin. Here's one that has has 21 in-lbs of torque, on 6V. It's $30. When power is turned off the servo should stay where it was put.
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXLN94&P=ML
Most microcotrollers have RC model servo control commands and/or routines availble. Picaxe has a servo command in it's interpreted basic that is compatible.
Bruce M
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Ok Ill speak real slow so you listeroid owners wont get confused . I my have a good un here. What about on the back of some electric engines there is a set of points. It disengages the start winding at a certin speed. Could this speed not be figured out and these points mounted on a small jack shaft eather belt driven or driven off a friction wheel . If rpm whent over say 7-750 it would break contact with the points thus engaging a solonoid and shutting the rack on the fuel pump With 120v available no need for 12v
I at one time built a small wind generator and this is what I used to start and stop my field. Did it work I think so But cause it was 12v dc my points always stuck and arcked and eventually I had to climbe. Ever stood beside a 6 foot blade turning at 1000 rpm
Im a tell a u nota gooda
Greg
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That was mentioned on Dec 31.
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I needed some Lister therapy today.
Here's my prototype pneumatic valve lifter:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10016/normal_ListerDecompress1.jpg)
The lifting arm pivots on a welded in place 3/8" hardened bolt shank. It bottoms out with just an RCH less lift than the stock lifter. I won't bother to shim it. The arm return spring is a bogus temporary one I made from a compression spring. The cam oil plug is the lifter attachment.
And a close up of the business end:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10016/normal_ListerDecompress2.jpg
)
It was very hard to post these after seeing Rocketboy's latest engine photos!
The 3/4" piston diameter air cylinder shown was borrowed from the rack closer, and needs to be increased to 1 1/16" (the next size up at Grainger and with 90 lbs of force). .The 3/4" cylinder's 40 lbs of push is just barely enough- and I'd like to see faster, more postiive action. This will require drilling out the existing 1/2" nose mount hole to 5/8". The larger cylinder is only $15.
As a side note- I got a Picaxe 18x chip and checked it out briefly. While the Picaxe basic is rather specialized and limited, it is well suited to the simple applications for which the chip is intended (engine controller). I like the idea that I can just give my basic source to anyone and they don't have to buy a bunch of expensive hardware or software development tools to implement their own (modified) version. I believe these PIC chips and Picaxe versions will be around for a long time.
The flash memory PIC single chip computer loaded with the Picaxe basic interpreter are very cheap, $3 to $14. depending on the processor. There's no external clock or support chips required, and only a standard PC serial cable for download is needed. The basic editor and download software are free downloads. The chip is quite low EMI (high frequency emissions) on the internal clock, even on a breadboard with a few LEDs winking, which also is a predictor of good noise immunity (reliability). See pixaxe.com and phanderson.com.
Best Wishes,
Bruce M
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Peace&Love :D, Darren
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Air cylinders are available in any extension (including fractions of an inch) and diameter. Piston area and air pressure determine force. The 3/4" piston cylinder shown has a 1" max extension. The piston doesn't fully extend, as the lifter lever arm bottoms out against the base.
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Bruce;
You got me looking at some Picaxe sites, and started thinking about the control issues we might want to address.
I grouped them below as SHUTDOWN, TRIM, & ALARM:
1) Oil pressure shutdown
2) Oil level shutdown
3) Water temp shutdown
4) High vibration shutdown (this would cover a host of unanticipated problems)
5) Overspeed shutdown
6) Governor speed trim (use the governor spring, input controller to bias the spring to keep cycles closer to 60)
7) Fire detection alarm
8) High water temp alarm
9) Low oil level alarm
10) Low oil pressure alarm
11) Low fuel tank level alarm
12) Security alarm (intruders)
I was thinking that the control system should be set up so the engine can be run without it, so you can still use the engine if there is a control failure.
Also, after you start the engine, then you arm (turn on) the control system.
Oh, and then there is autostart....
This post is kind of a pull over from the bicycle computer thread...
Scott E
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You might consider actuating a solenoid to drain water from the cylinder upon shutdown as well. IIRC McMaster has high-temp solenoid valves.
Kubota tractor engines have a solenoid which must have current before the engine will start. Possibly this is to prevent runaway situations. If you were to take this approach, then the exhaust valve would be open by default. This is somewhat safer, but it introduces another problem: how to start the engine without the controller?
I've long wanted to learn PIC, but I'm still stumped, flummoxed, and humiliated by my gib keys. Maybe some day I'll be able to pitch in.
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Bruce;
You got me looking at some Picaxe sites, and started thinking about the control issues we might want to address.
I grouped them below as SHUTDOWN, TRIM, & ALARM:
1) Oil pressure shutdown
2) Oil level shutdown
3) Water temp shutdown
4) High vibration shutdown (this would cover a host of unanticipated problems)
5) Overspeed shutdown
I plan on putting all of the shutown signals through a latch with LEDs, and then into one pin on the controller. It saves pins and the controller doesn't care, the action is the same...stop. The latches would keep the status lights on till reset so you could quickly see the cause of shutdown. I don't have number one...my 6/1 is splash lube only. I will do low/high (coolant leak) oil.
6) Governor speed trim (use the governor spring, input controller to bias the spring to keep cycles closer to 60)
I very nice idea but beyond my initial plans. If this could be done with a hgh speed RC servo, it could be fairly cheap to implement. I think I would dedicate an '08 chip to this function. (I think it has an analog input- otherwise the most basic '18.) Easier to implement as a dedicated $3. chip.
7) Fire detection alarm
Good idea. Hadn't thought of this.
8) High water temp alarm
9) Low oil level alarm
10) Low oil pressure alarm
11) Low fuel tank level alarm
12) Security alarm (intruders)
I don't plan on alarms for the first round, but it make good sence. I would also wire or them to a single pin input to the controller, and use the same status lights scheme with a yellow light for warning.
I was thinking that the control system should be set up so the engine can be run without it, so you can still use the engine if there is a control failure.
Absolutely. Manual operations are a must. With the controller off, you should have a stock machine ready to hand start.
Also, after you start the engine, then you arm (turn on) the control system.
Oh, and then there is autostart....
This post is kind of a pull over from the bicycle computer thread...
Scott E
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I made up a little test program for the Picaxe 18x solderless breadboard today and downloaded it via USB/serial cable. It works great! I'm really sold on the Picaxe chips for simple control tasks. My total "development system" cost was $19. including a nice little solderless breadboard. If you design in a header or serial connector, your prototype can be programmed without removing the Pixaxe chip. Lots of nice, affordable picaxe stuff at phanderson.com
I've got another application for the Picaxe before I do the engine controller, but when I do it, I'll be glad to share the program here.
Best Wishes,
Bruce M
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I'm going to go back to the earlier parts of this thread and raise some questions, since I'm still not quite sure what the consensus is.
It seems to me that the rack puller is the "proper" way to stop the engine. It also seems to me that the engine should be "fail safe". Lastly, it seems "simple is better." So, I've discounted air pistons (too complicated - two more systems to manage), closing off the fuel (not instant stop), and closing off the air (maybe impossible) I have a 12vdc system planned, so I have plenty of 12v power. That leaves electrically operated solenoid-type rack pullers - only one more system to manage, and a well-understood one at that.
The solenoid activates and pulls the pin back X.X inches. Then, an electromagnet (using much less power) holds the pin in place. In my fail-safe world, what I would do is actually not have the solenoid pull the rack upon engergizing, but in fact have the solenoid close the rack on DE-energizing, by allowing a compressed spring to extend and push the rack controls closed. Why? So if I lose the 12v for whatever reason, the solenoid would de-energize, the spring would be released, and the rack would be closed. I like fail-safe for stopping engines; having to rely on a power supply to stop the engine seems a little dangerous.
This means I need probably 150% the pulling power in the solenoid that is required for just the rack, since I need to pull back the spring, which will in turn be ~125% of the required force to close the rack.
Does anyone see anything obviously wrong with this method? It's a bit spendy (~$150 for both parts and some springs) but seems to be easy to implement.
My questions for the group:
- what's the the travel required to close the rack on your engine? 1.5"? 2"? other?
- how many pounds of force are required to close the rack on your engine? 15#? 20#?
- what kind of engine do you have? (brand and size)
I ask these questions so I can maybe come up with a "universal system" whose specifications would work for anyone's engine, and I'll post the notes here.
Some resources for people searching this thread:
http://www.trombetta.com/DefaultFrameset.asp?ShowContent=prod
P613-A1V12 1.5" draw, 21 pound pull, $94 from http://www.murcal.com/
http://www.murcal.com/s500-a60.htm
S500-A60 controller, reduces voltage to coils after draw but keeps hold magnet engaged $53
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My questions for the group:
- what's the the travel required to close the rack on your engine? 1.5"? 2"? other?
- how many pounds of force are required to close the rack on your engine? 15#? 20#?
- what kind of engine do you have? (brand and size)
a/ at a guess, about an inch, mebbe inch and a quarter
b/ 16 ounces is LOADS, --- 20 POUNDS will damage stuff
c/ genuine 6/1 start-o-matic
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Jtod,
Good post and some good ideas, too. Even I have second thoughts on pneumatic actuators. :)
The rack needs about an inch of throw, and about 15 lbs of force. It takes this much force to overide the governor spring. I've measured the force with a digital fish scale. 16/20 oz won't do squat.
If you look back in the thread, you'll see two suggestions I've previously made: Giant scale RC servos have enough torque to do this and also to operate a decompression pin. Picaxe and other microcontrollers have compatible servo control software already done for you. It's a Basic command in Picaxe Basic.
For a fail safe shut down, I'd suggest the fuseable brass wire method I previously mentioned. This wire holds the end of the governor spring and is disconnected by frying it with 12volts. I've tested this and it does work nicely. This could be used for an emergency shut down in case the microprocessor didn't operate properly, with some extra logic and timers.
But in general, I think the odds of the microprocessor failing at the same time as the cooling system or some other mechnical failure is remote enough to be resonably ignored. Or perhaps just have the more commonly used "sanity check" pulsed circuit that the processor must keep alive, else the emergency brass wire should be blown. So if the microprocessor fails at any time- they rack will be closed.
I have found the Picaxe chips to be easy to use, very reliable and static resistant. I'm wrapping up a project using one for a remote fiber optic controlled cell phone, just updating schematics now. Picaxe basic is ideal for a lister(oid) controller, as it's easily readable and requires no investment in development tools. I must thank Mr. Lister for his suggestion that I look into them. I'm not sure when I'll get to the auto start/shut down for my Listeroid, but when I do I'll be glad to provide the source code to anyone who wants it. Then it could be readily changed for different actuators, sensors, etc.
Best Wishes,
Bruce M
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For a fail safe shut down, I'd suggest the fuseable brass wire method I previously mentioned. This wire holds the end of the governor spring and is disconnected by frying it with 12volts. I've tested this and it does work nicely.
This would be more fun. :o
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonating_cord
A length tied to the injector line should work.
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Andre' B.
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Jtod,
Good post and some good ideas, too. Even I have second thoughts on pneumatic actuators. :)
The rack needs about an inch of throw, and about 15 lbs of force. It takes this much force to overide the governor spring. I've measured the force with a digital fish scale. 16/20 oz won't do squat.
If you look back in the thread, you'll see two suggestions I've previously made: Giant scale RC servos have enough torque to do this and also to operate a decompression pin. Picaxe and other microcontrollers have compatible servo control software already done for you. It's a Basic command in Picaxe Basic.
For a fail safe shut down, I'd suggest the fuseable brass wire method I previously mentioned. This wire holds the end of the governor spring and is disconnected by frying it with 12volts. I've tested this and it does work nicely. This could be used for an emergency shut down in case the microprocessor didn't operate properly, with some extra logic and timers.
But in general, I think the odds of the microprocessor failing at the same time as the cooling system or some other mechnical failure is remote enough to be resonably ignored. Or perhaps just have the more commonly used "sanity check" pulsed circuit that the processor must keep alive, else the emergency brass wire should be blown. So if the microprocessor fails at any time- they rack will be closed.
<snip>
Thanks for the figures on the pull and throw from both you and GuyFawkes. It seems that on the long arm of the connector (on my 12/2 JKson) that 15-18 pounds seems like the right pull, and an inch or less is about the same throw distance as I have (sorry I didn't mention this in my original post.) Guy - where did you measure the 16 ounce figure?
I appreciate the simplicity of the Picaxe chips, but I'm looking for something that runs without the help of solid state microcontroller devices. I'm looking to build a system that I could understand with only what was written in marker pen above the components if I came across it with no other context or instructions. I have big, ugly, unshielded Potter & Brumfield 12 volt relays (which can be activated or deactivated with a finger for "on-the-fly" debuggins) that I'm going to use for most switching components and I really like "fail safe" meaning that if the control system on the engine fails, then the engine stops. Using a servo or fuse wire implies that the 12vdc system is still operational and the microprocessor is on-line. If I have an alternator failure, it is totally reasonable to conceive of a situation where have I would have an engine that after several hours becomes "unstoppable" since the battery will have worn down from other components. I would then have to reach in (not easy or safe on my particular design at the moment, but I could put on an extender) to close the rack by hand. (Yes, I could build yet another circuit that detects low voltage on the 12vdc system and shuts down in that circumstance, but it seems like that's even more complexity.)
I've only considered using a keyswitch, RPM overage, and thermostatic triggers to release the "hold" electromagnet in the solenoid and thus release the spring which would close the rack. I'm sure other triggers could be added to this list easily enough.
Lastly, I like the idea of opening the decompression (exhaust) valves as a stopping method, but that seems like it would require a LOT of force, and would require two actuators for my 12/2. So I'm still leaning towards fuel rack closure as the method of choice...
JT
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Lastly, I like the idea of opening the decompression (exhaust) valves as a stopping method, but that seems like it would require a LOT of force, and would require two actuators for my 12/2. So I'm still leaning towards fuel rack closure as the method of choice...
JT
If I were going to the trouble of implementing an overspeed shut down, I'd not use the 'rack puller' scheme. The very fact that the engine is in an overspeed condition indicates that something has gone seriously wrong with the governor/fuel system, or maybe it's sucking oil in from an overfilled oilbath aircleaner, or a serious oil ring failure, or maybe the rack itself is somehow stuck. In any case, it seems like a good idea to have the shutdown function through a mechanism other than the rack. For overspeed shutdown, I like the idea of swinging the decompressors in. For normal stopping, a rack puller would be OK.
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Jtod,
Good post and some good ideas, too. Even I have second thoughts on pneumatic actuators. :)
The rack needs about an inch of throw, and about 15 lbs of force. It takes this much force to overide the governor spring. I've measured the force with a digital fish scale. 16/20 oz won't do squat.
I can assure you 16 oz is more than enough on a / my (genuine) lister, 15 lb is hellish strong for a spring powered governor, that's in the realm of hydraulic governors
surprised am I
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Thanks for the figures on the pull and throw from both you and GuyFawkes. It seems that on the long arm of the connector (on my 12/2 JKson) that 15-18 pounds seems like the right pull, and an inch or less is about the same throw distance as I have (sorry I didn't mention this in my original post.) Guy - where did you measure the 16 ounce figure?
I didn't measure it anywhere, that's a guesstimate from showing the rack closed with my pinkie.
this is the start-o-matic combined decompressor and rack closer, I'd guess about 5 foot pounds of torque will operate it nicely
(http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/Lister/gallery/image.php?twg_album=Lister+02&twg_type=small&twg_show=dscf0012.jpg&twg_rot=-1)
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I didn't measure it anywhere, that's a guesstimate from showing the rack closed with my pinkie.
Can't say as I ever measured it on my 6/1 but I would say it is closer to 16 ounces then 16 pounds.
_________________
Andre' B.
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Hi Have you guys looked at the Arrow engine overspeed mechanism? It apparently is a spring loaded stud. When an overspeed condition happpens the centrifugal force compresses the spring alowing the stud to extend and hit a lever. I am not sure what the lever does but the Arrow is a spark ignition gas engine. The lever is an over center devise and has to be reset after coerrectins have been made and the engine restarted.
The detroit 2 cycle engines have a flap that when unlatched the springs force the flap to close the air intake. a system like this would stop a lister even with the rack all the way to the full speed position. a condition that could happen when a pin falls out.
Dennis
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The detroit 2 cycle engines have a flap that when unlatched the springs force the flap to close the air intake. a system like this would stop a lister even with the rack all the way to the full speed position. a condition that could happen when a pin falls out.
Dennis
all I've ever seen those sutters used for is keeping crap out of the blowers when servicing the intercoolers and turbos.
unless your blower seals were in good nick closing the flaps would such them and their oil in too
detroits scare me, maye they wouldn't if i'd done the factory course, but that whole convoluted rack / injector thing is sooooooo easy to get wrong, or make wrong with a light hammer blow
listers have an almost exposed valve chest, so undo one handscrew, pop the cover off and whack the collets right and the valve will drop down and decompress the whole engine >;^)
on a more serious note, there is SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE SAID here.
these old style external flywheel motors have abso-fucking-lutely massive inertia in the flywheels when spinning at 650 RPM.
you think a 2" dia crankshaft is tough?
I wouldn't try dumping all that inertia quickly, eg breaking a pushrod, it would be tantamount to sticking a fire hose in the intake, sure it'll stop the engine, but it better blow a neat hold through the piston crown because if the piston or rod tries to sieze that 2" crankshaft will snap like a glass rod.
shutting the rack is nice, and shutting the rack and decompressing (assuming your listeroids are set so you can do that at speed without crowning the valve?) is very nice
nothing that stops (eg 0 rpm) the motor in less than fifteen seconds will be nice
if the listeroid design follow the lister then the only way you'll get a diesel fuel runaway is if the rack is wide open
if you have a lube oil runaway (from oil bath air filter or passing rings) then shutting the fuel won't shut her down anyway, listers run on minute amounts of fuel.
if you have a lube runaway then you, by definition, cannot cut off the "fuel", so you can only cut off the oxygen, either by sealing the intake, or flooding it with co2, or by closing the intake and exhaust off together
if you're running a gen head then overspeed also = over Hz, which will probably trip out your loads, and let the engine spin even faster, the beauty of the start-o-matic was the combines Ac/DC head, even if ac tripped out overspeed, dc was still produced and dc solenoid was the standard shutdown method.
so you want.
1/ auto shut down the works
2/ auto shut down that does not interfere with or over ride run away shut down
3/ run away shut down that doesn't depend on anything except the engine, eg not ac only gen head
so
1/ auto shut down can work happily by controlling rack and / or decompressor
2/ run away shut down can work happily by closing intake
item #2 is faily easy to make up, and fairly cheap.
on the air intel, most people fit a 90 degree elbow up to an air filter, don't, fit a tee, make sure it is a reducing tee, like this
(http://www.alibaba.com/sitemap/archives/images/qu50123669bo_Reducing_Tee_Type_2.jpg)
this is a slightly exaggerated example
the small diameter should fit the lister intake.
now all you need is a lathe and a surplus ball bearing.
make and insert a seat (for the ball bearing) in steel, set it at the lister intake end of the tee and spot weld into place.
on the top of the tee goes your air filter as usual
in the other end of the tee in direct line from the lister intake you put your ball and actuator, eg a suitable spring, end cap and release mechanism (you could make a piston type plug out of brass rod instead of using a bearing)
TRY THE BLOODY THING ON THE BENCH, both at room temp and at least 150 celcius to make sure it don't sieze, you'll also have to keep that thing clean from dirt etc so the ball can't get hung up, just a little though will do.
don't make it do it as a perfect seal, you NEED a moderate amount of leakage, say 1 cm square, to prevent damaging the engine by turning it into a vacuum pump on the induction stroke, she won't run fast on an intake 1cm square
if you try and turn it into a vacuum pump you cut off cooling air and may make her suck past the valves
if you try it on the exhaust side you risk popping the head or piston
make sure the tee is THICK walled, so it doesn't break and open up the intake again
personally I'd trigger it by intake manifold vacuum.
if you do NOT run an oil bath air cleaner, the only way to get "fuel" up there is past the rings, so an "overflow" in the crankcase would stop dilution, which would stop spattering excess up the bore, and a very lightly spring loaded alloy crank case door would stop excess crankcase pressure from blowing anything up there, but neither of these will help if something goes wrong and the rack jams open***
***I can distinctly recall and enamel coffee cup vibrating off an old tangye, and being batted by the spokes straight into the governor linkage, which luckily is bent shut, not open.... most embarrasing as it was my coffee
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Very strange about the difference in governor forces between my Metro 6/1 and the original Lister SOM. I wasn't blowing smoke, I really did measure mine. Even stranger that Andre thinks his forces are nearly as low as the SOM.
Unless there are radically different governors???
I had previously thought the Start O Matic must have a HUGE solenoid!
A deompression pin well designed shouldn't require a lot of force, since it is extended and doesn't have to lift the valve. I had already designed mine as a valve lifter before realizing that the SOM always used the decompressor for shut down, so it was always already engaged with the engine stopped.
I don't see any need for a processor if only auto/emergency shut down is to be implemented. All that's needed is a timed relay for the shut down mechanism (if it needs one).
Bruce M
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I had previously thought the Start O Matic must have a HUGE solenoid!
not really, considering the built like a tank to last 100 years general ethos of the lister
(http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/Lister/gallery/image.php?twg_album=Lister+02&twg_type=small&twg_show=dscf0001.jpg&twg_rot=-1)
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Very strange about the difference in governor forces between my Metro 6/1 and the original Lister SOM. I wasn't blowing smoke, I really did measure mine. Even stranger that Andre thinks his forces are nearly as low as the SOM.
Unless there are radically different governors???
I looked at it some last night, still no measurements, could not find a scale. :(
The times before when I pushed on the rack must have been with the engine running. Engine running it takes very little force to push the rack closed but with the engine off it takes a considerable force ~10lbs or so.
_____________
Andre' B.
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The rack closing spring should be tripped with a trigger. Then the solonoid actuator doesn't have to be very strong, nor continuously energized.
The Inlet air flapper in Detroit Diesels is spring loaded and uses a small solonoid to trip the trigger.
It is used for over speed trip, low oil pressure, and high water temp if that is your desire, because a simple relay circuit energizes the solonoid.
Virtually every 2 stroke detroit has this setup under the air filter, as it shuts the air inlet to the supercharger. It is reset by rotating the flapper shaft and pulling the trigger back into the notch on the shaft drum. Once you see it the elegent simplicity is obvious. Once you get your mind around it, you can build one for linear actuators or rotatry ones.
The same could be applied to the decompressor(s). The tappet on the SOM is held up by inserting a wedge / pin. A small force pushes it under the tappet when the tappet flange is up, 5 time per second.
A lister can run on air sucked out of the crankcase, even with the inlet air totally shut off (ask me how I know) but it won't be running very fast, and it will smoke alot. Not an overspeed danger, but not satisfactory if you were using it as a low oil shutdown. The SOM has it right with two shutdown forms; fuel rack and decompressor.
Scott E
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I agree, Scott, the SOM approach is solid and simple- close the rack and decompress.
If the governor spring is released, that does the trick for the rack. It could be done via a solenoid.
iI wanted auto start, too, thus the my pneumo rack closer (and decompressor).
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A lister can run on air sucked out of the crankcase, even with the inlet air totally shut off (ask me how I know)
How do you know? ;D
this sounds like a good story
<fx> grabs popcorn, pulls up chair... </fx>
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I have seen an engine do that at a tractor pull, tractor was tweaked to abut 10 times factory HP. Head cracked or gasket let go and the engine run away on the crankcase oil, not sure if the driver or the sled operator pulled the air shutoff but when everything stopped the engine was still running at about 150 RPM, big clouds of white smoke coming from places it's not suppose to come from. It run like that for about 5 minutes until someone found a CO2 fire extinguisher. Since then every pull in the area has at least two extinguishers along the track.
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Andre' B.
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Yeah, Halon works like CO2 also.
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Hi Yes that would be a positive shut down, co2 or nitrogen in the intake!
I dont think shutting the air intake off with a shutter would hurt the engine. The Detroit engines were not hurt when the shutter was popped.
I'm still thinking about what it would take to be 100% safe
1. overspeed shut down.
2. low oil = SD
3.High temp or low water = SD
4. Over or under volt = SD
All done as simply as possible = Reliability
Some time ago I read about an oil replenishment system to maintain oil at the right level.
Every one has taken a drink of water from a cooler that had a 5 gallon jug inverted in the top. I am thinking about a jug filled with oil inverted in a cup connected to the oil pan below the proper oil level. As the oil is consumed the level will drop in the crankcase and the cup. When the oil level drops air is alowed into the jug untill the level rises in the crankcase cutting off the flow of air into the jug. The oil goes in the other direction.
A similar system used a container that held oil. A vacum source was fitted to the container. The crankcase was over filled with oil. When the engine was started the vacum would pull the excess oil back into the container! The oil pickup had to be place where the oil level was wanted to be maintained. When the engine was stopped the oil in the container would draine back into the crankcase. This system worked properly when the engine was stopped and started regularly.
A pre-oiler sytem could be rigged with an oiling sytem, using a bottle that would be filled when the engine ran. A valve was used to hold pressure in the bottle. The valve would have to be closed after full pressure was developed in the engine. When the engine was wanted the valve was opened the oil under pressure would be forced through the oil gallery to the bearings. I am not sure how well this would work with the listers limited oiling system. It would put oil through the squirt tubes to the bearings. It might be worth trying
Dennis
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I have an idea on high temp and low oil shut down that I would really like to get some advice on before I go full bore into it. I have a surplus Sterlco temperature control valve that is reverse acting set up for 185 to 225 degrees. The valve is made to control water temp in heat exchangers and tanks. I want to install the bulb for it in my return water line behind my thermostat. I know it needs to be ahead of the t-stat but bulb is 6” long. Using brucem’s idea with the air cylinders for fuel rack shutdown. The theory is that at 225 the valve will open letting stored air in to actuate the air cylinder for shut down or it can be set up to drain air out of a pre pressurized system releasing a spring loaded shutdown. I like the pre pressurized better because if you loose air it shuts down on its own and is just one more fail safe. I also thought about adding a shut down for the generator that would unload the power before the engine is shutdown with air cylinders. This could be managed with a flow control on the engine shutdown that let full flow to the generator disconnect and slower flow to the engine. Low oil could be handled similar with a mechanical air switch out of McMaster. The oil sump will need to be modified at the drain to make a none turbulent area for a float to stay calm during operation with the float actuating the mechanical air switch incorporated into the same air system as the temperature control valve. My intentions are to keep the system electrically free. All advice will be appreciated.
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Peace&Love :D, Darren
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Yes it would work with another air actuated valve but where would it need to go before the injector pump or after. I would think before the injector.