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How to / DIY => Everything else => Topic started by: dkwflight on August 28, 2006, 11:05:47 PM

Title: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: dkwflight on August 28, 2006, 11:05:47 PM
Hi A few minute search gave these sources.

http://store.solar-electric.com/badebysocoin.html
http://www.flex.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
http://p198.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation

Dennis
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: mobile_bob on August 29, 2006, 02:57:36 AM
Dennis:

where should i start???

:)  okay okay,,, i will leave it alone.

bob g
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: DaveW on August 29, 2006, 04:19:44 AM
Mobile Bob -
   I agree with your thinking on new batteries and any nostrums that might be applied.  However, I have used a pulse circuit on a set of large traction batteries destined for scrap and found that over about 6 months they regained a lot of charge.  These are 1200 AH (4 sets wired to 48 volts) batteries that would not even hold a charge when I started.  Now they will carry about 80% of rated load, and recharge.  I make no claims, only that I am happy to have spent the time with the circuit and very pleased with the results.  Of course as always, your mileage may vary.  To be honest I have tried the same thing on some SLA batteries and gotten no results at all.
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: dkwflight on August 29, 2006, 04:55:40 AM
Hi Since I drive a company truck I rarely drive my 85 mercedes. The battery will go flat over a fairly short period. and has several times. I started useing a trickel charger and timer with a commercial de-sulfater for the last 11 months. The battery is in good condition now. I can't say it, the de-sulphater has made a large differance, but the car will start now after 3 weeks without the charger plugged in.
This all happened after I replaced a battery that wouldn't hold a charge for a couple of weeks.
I am interested in the concept. I use it on my motorcycle that also rarly gets use as well.
So far so good. I realise that all this is very un sceintific, but...
Dennis
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: mobile_bob on August 29, 2006, 04:58:11 AM
DaveW:

good job on the recovery of your batteries, i have wondered why manufactures list that when a battery gets to about 80%capacity its life is over, perhaps its life at rated capacity is over, but i wonder if used at a reduced capacity one could get more lifespan.

i have been thinking about my devils advocate stance this afternoon, and i think i would like to clarify a bit.

my problem with the desulfator schemes are basically the way they are presented, not so much whether of not they work.

most all of the advertisements regard sulfation as an evil, that must be conquered by a desulfator, or chemical additions, that they sell.

what they don't tell you in plain language is that sulfation is a normal activity in a battery as it discharges, sulfation is not intrinsically bad.

what is bad is when the sulfation is allowed to stand, and harden.  then it becomes very difficult to break it back down as designed.

i guess in a nutshell, my problem with the claims are , by making sulfation a dirty word, the uninformed are led to believe that, oh my god, my batteries are slowly dieing, i need to buy one of their gadgets or chemicals to protect my investment.
when in reality all they really need to do is properly charge the cells to start with, and equalize when needed.

on the other hand, if their adds ran something along the lines of.

"if your batteries are beginning to show age, arent charging up to capacity, or showing other signs of early failure, then buy our desulfator and recover them. or if you have some poor batteries that you want to recover, buy our desulfator and recover them."

followed by a disclaimer that clearly states that "our product is able to recover most batteries, but not all"  or "your mileage may vary"

personally i have no doubt that these things work to some extent, sometimes quite well, and sometimes not at all, and the majority somewhere in the middle.

btw, i have researched the electronic desulfators and their theory of operation, between them and EDTA, i lean more toward the electronic method.

the bottom line is there is never going to be an answer to this question, because no two batteries are the same or will react the same to any method, and

there is no way to determine that one method is better than the other, because once one method is used the problem isnt the same when applied to another method.

classic catch 22

bob g
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: dkwflight on August 29, 2006, 07:15:09 AM
Hi Bob
What you say is correct. If you use a battery properly it will last a lot longer. In a vehicle the motion of driveing shakes the bat and prevents stratification. The big phone co batteries have an aereation scheme in place to bubble air up through the acid to keep it mixed. I have never had a battery go bad before its time when it was in use every day.
Spend some time reading some of the posts in the de-sulphater forum. You will learn some thing about batteries. If you spend some $ on a kit you can rejuvinate some batteries and see for your self. They even discuss EDTA. As in when to use it and how.
They will tell you that the system will not recover the unrecoverable. Some will be beyond help.
There iis an Austrailian group that did some testing in a community that has a lot of solar-battery systems. Treating 1/2 of the batt. banks leaving the oter half of a bank untreated. They got enough good results(reduced failures, extended life) to recomend treating the whole system with de-sulfaters along with proper charging and conservation.practices.
Dennis
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: bitsnpieces1 on August 29, 2006, 02:25:58 PM
  I admit I've never used EDTA or a pulse type desulfonator.  I have had limited luck using a 10 amp charger on a really weak battery for about two weeks of constant charge to get it going for another 6 - 12 mos. 
  It's my understanding that sulfonation is a normal (and necessary) process in a battery just like what mobile bob says.  From what I've been able to figure out the problem occurs when the battery is allowed to sit and the light, fluffy, porous sulfation turns into a crystalline structure that acts a lot like a good coat of paint will.  That way it seals off the rest of the plates and prevents them from interacting with the acid, also the crystalline stuff doesn't react well to a charging current.  Somethimes the charging will break it down and free up the plates again and sometimes not.  That is what has me thinking the pulse or EDTA could help remove the crsytalline stuff and expose the plates again. 
  That is where limited research and some chemistry has gotten me to, now to try some experiments myself for (admittingly anecdota)l evidence.  I need to look into what stuff would need to be tested/checked along the way, given my problems limiting my ability to do much work. 
  By the way I wrote this before looking at the links above.
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: dkwflight on August 30, 2006, 10:31:39 AM
Hi Here is another link
http://www.pulsetech.com/
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: Guy_Incognito on September 15, 2006, 02:55:17 AM
I've got a report here on the trial use of desulphators in power systems in the Daintree region in Australia in 2003.
It was done by a research station at Cape Tribulation. While they mainly look at flora and fauna in the region, they also experiment with remote area power systems a fair bit. The whole region (about 350 homes in a 30km stretch along the coast) is off-grid. This is where my 6/1 is going, to supplement the solar array for my new house in the cloudy monsoon season.

(The report's online, but I won't link to it - they ask for a donation to their research station for it. If you're interested, go looking at http://www.austrop.org.au/)

Anyway, they fitted their own design of desulphators to one 12V half of a 24V system and run for 24 months or so, with conductance measurements every month on each half of the bank. Fitting them this way ensures most of the extraneous issues with charging/discharging are nullified as each half of the entire 24V string gets the same charge/dischare currents. The conductance measurements accurately determine the amount of plate capacity left in each cell. About 40 or so systems were used in the trial, so there was a reasonably large sample size.

At the end of the trial, the cells with the desulphator had a definite measurable improvement over the cells without, particularly on gel-cells. So a hundred bucks or so for a bit of extra life out of your $5000 set of batteries is a pretty good deal.
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: mobile_bob on September 15, 2006, 03:45:33 AM
"So a hundred bucks or so for a bit of extra life out of your $5000 set of batteries is a pretty good deal."

maybe!  maybe not!

do they sell these desulfators? or sell the plans for them?

if so i am very suspicious of their report.

first of all i have no doubt a desulfator will work better than poorly managed batteries in any group.

can you link directly to their article?
i really don't want to spend half the night trying to find it only to find what i usually find in these desulfator reports, that is poor science.

before anyone starts a war with me on this subject again i would like to make an observation or rather a statement of fact.

most of these folks that claim they work say they work on the pulse frequency or some such stuff that breaks down the sulfation, what they don't go on to state is the fact that sulfation is the nomal product of discharging a battery, you cannot eliminate sulfation.
what they should allude to is the truth and that is they are not trying to break down sulfation but rather sulfation that has been allowed to harden into crystals.
these crystals form from allowing a battery to sit either discharged, or partiallly charged for a rather lengthy amount of time.

now when one gets to hard crystal sulfation, yes it is hard to reconvert, but i take exception to most desulfator folks statement that they break down these crystals by means of the frequency of the pulse which they claim "shakes" the crystals and makes them break down.  this statement is flawed to no end

sulfation that has crystalized and hardened will form crystalls of differing sizes and mass, each of which would have to have a different frequency to get them to vibrate, that is if they could vibrate at all in a liquid bath, which would dampen them.

where a desulfator might have validity is in its ability to pulse higher voltages than normally used for equalization for very short durations, thus avoiding heat buildup.. maybe,, theoretical at best.

so far i have seen no report, (and i have read many dozens over the years) that illustrate the mechanism of a desulfator working any better than careful charge regiimes and routine equalization, as far as good batteries go.

as far as badly managed batteries being resurrected with a desulfator, i have seen no report that shows a clear advantage of the desulfator over the controlled higher voltage low amperage method or that of draining the battery refilling with plain water and applying a current and monitoring the rise in specific gravity.

the reason is obvious why desulfator folks don't publish this sort of test, it would clearly show no advantage or very limited success of their method over the tried a true method, and thus kill their sales and their arguement.

the onus is on the desulfators folks to run the tests to prove their position, not the battery manufactures to prove they don't work.

the only outside tests that i have read are from the sandia lab folks, and they come up with unconclusive results.

bottom line is,,, (if using flooded cells)

buy quality cells, follow the manufactures recommendations on charge and discharge cycles, keep them well maintained, watered and clean, and keep and eye on the specific gravity and equalize when needed.  then when they get old and tired, and you feel like trying a desulfator then go for it.

until the case has been made and backed up with good science, i would not subject a good battery to a desulfator, we just don't know enough about the process to establish whether or not there is any side effects.

you would not take a medication for a problem with your health that you currently didnt have would you? especially if the side effects of the
medications weren't known yet.

a good test by an outside source such as sandia with a double blind setup where one group of batteries were properly maintained and equalized etc vs a set that had the desulfator ran on them for 10 years (on a 10 year set) would be of great value.  especially if they plotted out the results quarterly over 10 years.

if at the end the researcher was to retest the capacity of the two groups and found the desulfator group clearly of more capacity then maybe i would get on board,, until then no way.

this to me so far has all the validity of the old motor oil additives that were claimed to restore a worn out engine, or keep it running for many miles more than engine running the manufactures recommended oils. they come and go with the seasons, i worry that the desulfators are just that sort of thing. nothing more than hyped up magnets on your fuel line to increase mileage.

bob g
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: Guy_Incognito on September 15, 2006, 10:39:50 AM
"So a hundred bucks or so for a bit of extra life out of your $5000 set of batteries is a pretty good deal."

maybe!  maybe not!
do they sell these desulfators? or sell the plans for them?
if so i am very suspicious of their report.

Aha! I've stumbled upon your pet rant it seems.  ;D
They don't sell the desulfators. They give way the plans for a basic desulphator. They are a privately-funded rainforest research station.

Quote
can you link directly to their article?
i really don't want to spend half the night trying to find it only to find what i usually find in these desulfator reports, that is poor science.

I gave you my reasons for not linking, but it's on that site I indicated. Look for yourself in the archives.

Quote
sulfation that has crystalized and hardened will form crystalls of differing sizes and mass, each of which would have to have a different frequency to get them to vibrate, that is if they could vibrate at all in a liquid bath, which would dampen them.

where a desulfator might have validity is in its ability to pulse higher voltages than normally used for equalization for very short durations, thus avoiding heat buildup.. maybe,, theoretical at best.

They have a few photos of plates under an electron microscope, but they state that the hows and whys are purely theoretical. That's why they tested them, silly. They were looking for hard data and the end result. Whether it actually twangs the crystals to shrink them, or little moon men are attracted to it and sneak in at night to file the sulphate crystals down for you, it doesn't matter in the end if the thing works, no?

Quote
so far i have seen no report, (and i have read many dozens over the years) that illustrate the mechanism of a desulfator working any better than careful charge regiimes and routine equalization, as far as good batteries go.

This is principally an area where "careful charge regimes" are not used. All the RAPS in use there are run by average people, who don't give a damn about equalisation or what-not. They just want their lights to work. This is a test of desulhpators in real-world, hit and miss use. They noted that there were some improvements in entire packs simply because people were aware that "technical people" were watching them, and they were then obliged to look after them a bit better. Putting the desulphator across half a bank allows them to take issues like that into account though.

Quote
if at the end the researcher was to retest the capacity of the two groups and found the desulfator group clearly of more capacity then maybe i would get on board,, until then no way.

They measured each cell's internal conductance monthly. This is a (but not "the") principle indicator of remaining plate life and general capacity. It's a bit hard to come up to someone - who volunteered - and say "Hey, I'm going to cycle your pack and interrupt your next couple of days power usage, so I can get some numbers for my report". Especially the kind of people living in that region. They prefer to be left alone.

The ones in the desuplhator group consistently indicated a higher conductance than the ones run normally. Well, that's what the scatter plot of 40 sets of cells in the report indicates anyway. The bulk of the samples were in the "better" section of the plot.

But hell, I'm going for a nickel-iron set in my RAPS, so sulphation can take a flying leap.  ;)




Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: mobile_bob on September 15, 2006, 03:48:02 PM
ok fair enough, if as yiou say one does not want to be bothered with proper maintenance which involves equaliztion of flooded cells
then the desulfator probably will show better battery life over the long run. because in that scenario the desulfator is doing the job of
equalization at least.

who knows what else might be happening as well

funny how some folks want to live offgrid, not be bothered by outside folks, but also don't want to fuss with taking care of something that takes care of them, namely
their batteries.

bob g
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: Guy_Incognito on September 15, 2006, 04:47:02 PM
Quote
funny how some folks want to live offgrid, not be bothered by outside folks, but also don't want to fuss with taking care of something that takes care of them, namely
their batteries.

I think battery maintenance interferes with their mellow hippy lifestyle routine a bit. But some of the local system designs are a bit awkward for them as well. Eg. 1000Ah of cells + a crappy 3kVA genset to charge via a 60A battery charger. = 8 hours of running to pull up from 50% charge + another 4 hours or so of moderate equalisation. No self-respecting hippy trying to commune with nature is going to have a 3000rpm genny running for that length of time  ;)


Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: Rainbow-Farm on October 27, 2006, 03:22:07 AM
I bought about 7 desulfators from Battery Life Saver. I once found a report on the solar panel battery test, probably the same one.

I don't know how to EDTA (chelate) my batteries, and I do not know how the desulfator really works, beyond conceptually. I do not know sheeet about sulfur crystals except that the sulfuric acid contacting the lead plate makes electricity.

So, I used the desulfator on sealed lead-acid batteries, on my car, and on some deep-cycle solar-system batteries, and I noticed an improvement. Six of them went to friends. No one has commented. One used it on his deep-cycle batteries, but they are already in perfect condition.

I am not interested in joining the argument, since I have just said everything I know about this, and I doubt my car's battery would have made it to the end of the lease next year. Why should I buy a new battery to give back to the car dealer when I get to keep the desulfator?

My car's battery was draining too quickly and it no longer does that after a week with the desulfator on it. I had my reasons for choosing Battery Life Saver over the other brands, which does not mean the other brands are not good.

Soon enough, they will be for sale at Canadian Tire, just like the electronic rust thingie, and more people will buy them, like them, blah, blah.

And... what is wrong with free batteries? Somebody wants to throw away their battery? Put the desulfator on it. Get a free battery. Maybe. Depends on the algorithms and all that, I suppose.

Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: adhall on December 12, 2006, 05:21:08 PM
Well, here's some anecdotal evidence from my own experience:
I have a '92 Dodge pickup with the Cummins diesel. The radio had been iffy ever since I bought the truck in 2001. About a year ago, the radio quit working altogether. Oh well, I figured, I didn't like that stock radio anyway, maybe it's time to upgrade. At the same time, I noticed that the battery voltage was dropping quite a bit when the glow plugs kicked in. I also noted that the even after the engine was running the battery voltage was cycling periodically until the engine warmed up. The battery voltage would drop low enough that the headlights would dim to a feeble, yellow glow. (I wish I had some real voltage readings to report here, but the voltmeter on the dash is difficult to read accurately.) Extended charging with a conventional trickle charger didn't help. At this point the battery was at least 5 years old and I figured it was about time to replace it.

In the mean time, I had picked up a battery maintainer to use on my motorcycle and garden tractor batteries. The main feature I was interested in when I bought this device was it's ability to maintain the charge on a small battery without overcharging it, but the particular device I purchased offered, in the words of its manufacturer, "patented high-frequency pulse technology" which the makers allege "automatically dissolves harmful power-robbing sulphation" and was "guaranteed to increase your battery's life and performance".

Figuring I had nothing to lose, I tried the battery maintainer on the truck battery. After using it for about a week, I noticed that the radio began working again. I also noticed that the battery voltage it not dropping down low as it was before. Also, at this point the improved battery performance has been maintained even during periods when I don't have the device connected.

So, does this prove that "de-sulphating" works? Probably not. It may just prove that I now have a more effective trickle charger than I had before or maybe the battery just decided to "come around". On the other hand, I'm happy that I didn't have to puy a new battery for the truck (yet, at least). But mainly I'm happy to have a charger that I can leave on small batteries for extended periods with worrying about damaging them. (I have boiled several motorcycle batteries dry using chargers supposedly made specifically for that type of battery.)

Having an easy way to safely maintain the charge levels on these batteries is probably more valuable than any benefits the "de-sulphating" feature has to offer.

Best regards,
Andy Hall
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: binnie on December 12, 2006, 05:46:17 PM
Andy,
Do you mind sharing a link to the type of Battery Minder that you bought. Thanks binnie (I think as long as it's on topic...administration won't mind)
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: adhall on December 12, 2006, 08:24:53 PM
Binnie:

Sure I'd be happy to pass along the link, bearing in mind that I have no commercial interest in this product or company, etc.

Here is the link to what appears to be the manufacturer's site:

             http://www.thebatteryminder.com/12v133abatteryminder-p-29.html

There are many places that sell these things at competitive prices. I purchased mine through an online vender in SW Oregon.

So far, the only negative I have to say about it is that the battery clips are cheap. They are made of plated steel rather than copper and tend to rust. It would be an easy fix to replace them, of course.

Best regards,
Andy Hall
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: Stan on December 13, 2006, 03:04:04 AM
Just thought I'd pass along this site   http://www.cdstandbypower.com/products/batteries/related/rs_1476.pdf
   These are the batteries I use in my ham shack.  I'm a member of the BC PEP (provincial emergency program) and I run my entire shack off these.  It makes fascinating reading for anyone interested in "real" batteries care and feeding.
stan
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: okiezeke on January 22, 2007, 03:26:00 AM
 At the risk of repeating what Bob has already said,

Long battery life requires regular equalization.  Equalization is a controlled overcharge that dissolves sulphation and boils water.  The water has to be replaced.    Some serious folks equalize daily.  Monthly is minimal care.

The other major battery killer is regular discharge beyond 50% of capacity.  This aggravates sulphation.  You need a good system monitor to watch % of discharge.  They cost a hundred  dollars and up.  If you're depending on a battery bank the monitor will pay for itself.  You need more batteries in your system to insure less than 50% discharge per cycle.  Cold cranking amps is meaningless for a functional battery system.  You need amp hour info.

Cheap batteries will not last.  The plates are too thin, insulators are poorly made.  They're just......cheap.  Batteries sold for auto use will not work well for off grid use.  Good quality golf cart batteries are pretty good.  High end marine batteries are worth the money if you can afford them.  Think 8D size.  Gel or AGM batteries are OK.    Good quality flooded deep cycle conventional batteries will last as long. 

Cheap chargers will kill any battery.  A good charger is computer controlled and uses (at least) 3 stage charging,  a good charger allows you to equalize.  Look to the marine systems.  A good inverter/charger costs a thousand dollars or more.  Shop around, prices vary.  Again, it will pay for itself in the long run.

Sad reality is the cost of a quality battery/inverter/charging system to support off grid living will cost multi thousand dollars.  Folks get 10 years or more on a set of batteries.  You get what you pay for.

Zeke
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: Stan on January 22, 2007, 07:40:45 PM
Zeke, I agree with everything you say about batteries being a.) expensive (unless you get recycled ones) b.) need proper care.  You should, however check with the battery manufacturer for the specs on maintenence.  CD technologies recommends equalization charges every 6 months.  I hook up 1, 75 watt solar panel which will put out 3.2 amps at 19 volts directly to the 12 volt cell bank on a sunny day every spring and fall and bubble the heck out of them for 6 hrs or so.  I then check the voltage in each cell to make sure they are within 1/00th of a volt of each other (they always are) and check/add distilled water as needed.  Not much maintenence for a great set of cells.
Stan
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: okiezeke on January 22, 2007, 11:57:17 PM
Stan,
Reccomendations vary.  They vary so much I wonder if anybody really knows.  Equalizing with the solar panel is probably fine.  19v is on the high side for equalizing, but OK as long as the batterys dont get hot.   Computer controlled chargers limit amperage during equalization to prevent overheating the battery.  The warmer a battery gets, the more current it will accept.  With poorly regulated charging source, batterys have overheated and even exploded.  This would not be a problem with your solar panel since it probably  cant put out enough power to damage the batteries.  Checking voltage of each cell is good.  Could also check specific gravity of electrolyte in each cell.  The goal is for all cells' Sp G to be the same.   We lived on our boat for 5 years, and battery maintenance was one of our favorite topics for discussion.  I'm serious when I wonder if anybody really knows, since opinions/ideas varied widely among the live-aboard crowd.  Most live aboards had expensive inverter-chargers like the xantrex, and they seemed to improve battery life.  Nigel Caldor wrote a good book on the subject, cant remember the title.  Turns out plain old batteries are very complex critters.   Thanks for the feedback.
Zeke
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: Stan on January 23, 2007, 12:50:31 AM
There's a guy in town that works as an engineer for Telus who's main responsibility is keeping the huge aray of wet cells in good shape for any power outages that may occur.  He's been doing it for more than 30 years and I'd guess hes the type of guy you want to ask for any info on how to babysit these things.  You're right my panel at max of 3.2 amps won't seriously over charge my cells.  They all have a "stone" like vent deal on them which is supposed to catch water vapour and let it drain back into each cell.  It must work because I don't have to put much water in them.  They also have a small lid on the top, in one corner which accepts a tall thermomter (which I have) and because the cases are transparent, you can keep close track of the temp.  Very little temp rise of only a degree or two when equalizing them.
stan
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: okiezeke on January 23, 2007, 02:25:30 AM
Stan,
They sound like good batteries.  What kind are they?
Zeke
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: Stan on January 23, 2007, 04:19:15 AM
 http://www.cdstandbypower.com/products/batteries/related/rs_1476.pdf
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: mobile_bob on January 23, 2007, 04:35:07 AM
rolls/surrette suggest equalizing once every 4 or 6 months, but i am a bit more anal and will likely do it once every month.

there are subtle differences in lead acid batteries for sure, batteries used in telecom systems are made to last years in a float mode and deliver as advertised a
few times over the years.

true deep cycle batteries are designed to give repeated deep cycle use over many years and many hundreds if not thousands of cycles.

myself i am likeing the rolls surrette 2 volt or 4 volt cells, the 5000 series which is their best offering, on the expensive side, but well made and a long track record
of building top quality batteries.

i especially like the deep cases, polyglass envelopes to keep the plates from shorting and larger water capacity.

for charging i am likeing the balmar alternator controller, which replaces the regulator in the alternator to give 3 step charging with manuawwel equalization, temp compensation, and alternator/battery temp sensors, and the fact they are programmable and softstart capable (which is also programmable)

i have not seen conclusive proof from an independant lab that would lead to to conclude that any of these desulfator/chargers would do any better of a job maintaining
a set of quality cells, and likely fall far short of what a well programmed balmar and good maintenance would accomplish.

the nice thing is you can program the controller to do precisely what the battery manufacture recommends for charging their batteries by type, size, use etc.
there is no fixed charger/desulfator that is going to come anywhere close to that sort of precision.

bob g
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: rmchambers on January 23, 2007, 02:16:04 PM
In the flying club I'm a member of, we replace any battery that has been completely drained (like if you left the master switch on overnight) since we fly the planes in the clouds and a battery that has been fully discharged probably won't last as long running "critical devices" in the soup if the alternator (or belt) fails.  I've taken a few of these batteries home to play with and have had some decent luck getting them back to life.  There was one however that I believe had one bad cell (12v) as it constantly would drop to 10v once a load was put across it.  Unfortunately I recycled it so I don't have it to test anymore but I wonder if a desulphator would have brought this back to life after some rigorous charge thrown at it.  I'd never use it in a plane again but they are handy to have around for various testing projects or as a backup bank to my Trojans on the inverter.

Speaking of which, I got a Trace Inverter and 4 Trojan T-105's a while back, the age of the batteries is unknown but the last time we had an extended outage the bank and inverter ran some computer equipment,the fish tank, and a fluorescent light off and on for about 12 hours which in my book was a pretty good lifetime.

My next lead-acid purchase is going to be 4 T-125 batteries which I can pick up on the way to my sisters house from a distributor so that makes things a bit cheaper for me.  Since I don't know about the health of the "old" batteries I'm going to keep the two banks separate using a 600 amp switch.  The idea being to get the new batteries installed in their plastic boxes and then turn the switch (which has a 1, 1+2, 2, off settings)  from the old bank to the new/old bank, then the new bank only and let the Trace do a bulk/absorbtion/float charge and get them up to 100% charge.  I then have a couple of options to keep things charged.  1. manually change the switch from 1 to 2 every so often and only put it on 1+2 during an outage, or leave the inverter on the new bank and get a desulphating charger and leave it across the old set. My bank is 24V so I'd have to do it two batts at a time.

My new and improved electric bill arrived yesterday which reflects half a month at my new electric pricing, next month is going to be disgusting.  My wife has said "time for you to research solar roof shingles" as she likes the look of those over the common roof panels.  I'm not sure what the power output of those are compared to the panels, it might work out.  At least she's on board with my plans  ;D

Robert
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: Technonut on January 23, 2007, 03:56:01 PM
I am pretty certain that the Battery Life saver http://www.batterylifesaver.com/battery-life-saver-test.html bought my battery bank an extra 1 year + of useful life. It did bring the specific gravity up after a few months of use. This was with 12 Trojan T-105's in 3 banks of 4 batteries. (24V) I just retired the Trojans a couple of months ago. I originally put them into use in 1999, along with a Trace 4024 inverter....

I have since stepped-up to a 20 (soon to be 24) battery bank of Interstate U2200's. (232 Amp Hour battery) In the spring, I have 10 180 Watt Sharp solar panels to install, along with 2 Outback MX-60 charge controllers. My roof does not face south, so I had mounting racks made to mount on the back of my home. (True southern exposure ;)  )     

The biggest pain-in-the-ass for me is battery watering. I have a power-vented battery box that I built in my basement, and it was a chore sometimes to open the box, remove caps, and water the cells. I have since moved-up to an improved watering systen that has been a godsend... http://janwp.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=JANWP&Category_Code=BWS... Expensive, but worth it to me... :)

I am slowly putting together a biodiesel processor with a plan to run some AC in the summer, and a 24 volt charger from either my GM-90 6/1or Metro 6/1. My Trace 4024 does a fine job of charging and equalizing the bank, but I really do not want to chance running biodiesel in my Isuzu genset. The Isuzu is my heavy-duty SHTF genset... :) I have it wired to the 4024. It automatically starts when the battery bank gets to my set level of 24V... It also excercises the Isuzu once every two weeks.

Sorry for the rambling... If anyone is interested enough, I can start a dedicated thread....

Anyway... You can bet the Battery Life Saver is connected to my new bank.... ;)
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: Stan on January 23, 2007, 04:09:57 PM
Don't forget that when you desuphinate or equalize or even do a deep discharge and recharge, you are breaking off small xytals of lead/cad etc. that could grow and short plates out.  When these small xtals are broken off and fall to the bottom of the battery, they build up and in time short out plates from the bottom.  One measure of a "good" battery (and yes, there are many more) is "how much clear space is there at the bottom of your battery before the crud starts touching/shorting the bottom of the plates.  You're right about the clear cases, they let you actually see what's going on down there.

I'm having trouble posting this morning.

Bob, the telecom batteries aren't rated for long periods of float, they have to be able to give up their maximum rated amount of amps per hour in case of need.  The maintenence procedure drains them down to their maximum on a regular basis which in the case of mine is 8 hours at 30 amps.  The large thick plates with wide spaces between them and lots of space at the bottom of the case makes this possible.  The are recycled every ten years only because there's a law that madates that, and they routinely are still as good as new at the end of their 10 year official life.  You should be able to get another 10 years out of them at least.
Stan
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: rmchambers on January 23, 2007, 05:14:52 PM
I don't think we need a separate thread, since most of the use of batteries in any great amounts is storage for inverter use.  It sounds like you have a comprehensive system which is impressive. 

I'm hoping to get some solar as well and take advantages of grants and tax breaks.

I keep an eye on my electrolyte level but recently have purchased some water-miser caps which re-constitute the expelled vapor back into liquid and drip it into the cell.  They also have flip caps which make checking and adding water easier than unscrewing the original caps.

Every once in a while I'll give the batteries a thump with side of my fist which causes a good gurgling/bubbling noise and I use the inverters equalize setting every month or two.

My biggest annoyance now is getting extra runs between my inverter "area" and the main panel since the basement is finished in that area and I don't want to tear it all up.  I guess I'm going to have to make a couple of little holes in the sheetrock and add some inspection doors to help with the cable pulling operation.

The end result for me will be a heavy run between my garage where the gen is going to live and the main panel, a whole house transfer switch.  A heavy run from a breaker in the panel to my inverter area (to feed it) and another heavy run back from the inverter to the "critical" subpanel.

At present I only have the 1 inverter so I only have backup capability for 120V (no transformers).  If I pull enough of the right kind of cable I could always upgrade to bigger (2) inverters and gang them together and make a 220 backup scenario without doing any more wiring work.

All it takes is money and time.... neither of which I seem to have enough of.

Robert
Title: big batteries
Post by: LMWatBullRun on May 04, 2007, 01:28:30 PM
I have heard about telecommunication batteries being surplused, and I am looking for such things, but really haven't any idea where to look.  Does anyone have any suggestions?  Eventually I'd like to have around 1000 AH of storage at 48 volts nominal.  EIther Dekaa or Exide, I forget which, make a 2volt 1000 AH cell, but obviously that gets into some bucks.  If I could find some nice big telco batteries that would be great.

I can get 6 volt 110 AH golf cart batts locally for around $56, which isn't bad, but they are only 110 AH, and the most they say you ought to parallel is 3 strings, which is only 330 AH.

I looked at the Interstate battery site and they have golf cart batts that go up to around 375AH 6v (the UL16) and the weight is manageable at 110 pounds each, but I'm guessing that these batteries probably run a couple hundred each.  Which brings me back to my earrlier point-

Where do you find telecomm batteries?
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: rcavictim on May 04, 2007, 02:44:45 PM
...  I've taken a few of these batteries home to play with and have had some decent luck getting them back to life.  There was one however that I believe had one bad cell (12v) as it constantly would drop to 10v once a load was put across it.  Unfortunately I recycled it so I don't have it to test anymore but I wonder if a desulphator would have brought this back to life after some rigorous charge thrown at it.

Robert

I recently got a batch of used telecom AGM 12 volt, 105 AH batteries.  One was found to have a completely dead cell and the battery would not draw more than a few Ma when 20 VDC was applied trying to charge it.  It measuread about 10.5 volts open circuit.  Seeing this as a worst case scenario I thought it woiuld be a great test subject to see if these pulse battery desulfators were really any good.

I spent last weekend building my own.  It took quite a bit iof trial and error getting the thing to work properly but I was cobbling together my own. heavy duty version of a basic circuit used as a guide only.  I recently took apart a number of computer and telecom switchmode type power supplies and have been gathering up the totoidal inductors and other components for my parts bins.  I used one of these coils as was and the core from another, winding myown wire on as appropriate.  My unit draws from 1/2 to 1-1/2 amps from the battery at 11-15 volts, adjusted by a pot and visible on a meter for tuning.  It requires a cooling fan on the semiconductor heatsinks and torroidal coils.  This is WAY more aggressive than the commercial battery minders you can buy in stores.  I wanted a unit powerful enough that could treat a whole bank of 12 volt batteries in parallel on a common bussbar system.

I ran my pulser on this dead AGM battery for about 30 hours with a trickle charger supplying the extra power necerssary to help run my pulser and to provide some charging voltage for the battery.  To my almost disbelief after 30 hours I had a battery that could accept 9 amps of charge from a real battery charger and not climb over 14.5 volts (at the present state of battery charge).  I tested the battery with a Xantrex-X power 1000 watt inverter as a load and it ran a 60 watt incanmdescent lamp great.  It was able to run a 300 watt incandescent lamp for several seconds before the low voltage alarm on the Xantrex squealed and then the inverter went into battery protect shut down.

This is amazing I think and looks to me like proof that this technique actually works.  I put the pulser back on last afternoon with a 2 amp charge and plan to check on it again today and slam it with another 300 watt test to see if there is a further improvement.

edit to correct typo stating Xantrex  inverter size
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: Doug on May 05, 2007, 02:33:38 AM
We send out a lot of batteries with nothing wrong with them to be reconditioned because my employer has more money than brains ( in the old days we just tossed out perfectly good dead batteries lol ).

Anyhow thewy come back with a plastic desulfator pulse gizmo. Generaly the shaft crews, ad mobile guiys steel these before a battery arrives at a machine.

Do they work?
People keep stealing them.....

Doug
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: rmchambers on May 05, 2007, 03:00:05 AM
Now that I have my inverter sort of set up the way I want (just not powering everything I want it to yet) I embarked upon some battery maintenance.  The consensus is that the voltage of each battery should be with in tenths of a volt between each cell in the string.  I have 4 in my string.  With the old batteries I got when I purchased the inverter I don't know how old they are or how much  they've been abused.  I topped up to the recommended level with distilled water and measured.  I wasn't with in a few tenths of a volt I was almost a volt off on some of them  >:(

Ok, time for an equalization charge.  Look at the instructions.. looks simple enough, turn the little knob to equalize and away we go right?  wrong.  the voltage didn't change at all!  argh I have a defective inverter.

I chopped the incoming A/C to the inverter and forced it to run off the batteries.  Turn the power back on and now I hear a heavy duty hum coming from the inverter and the 26-something volt float voltage is now 33volts!  yahoo.. the batteries start bubbling and I let it run (had the window open)  when I came back down the next day the inverter was back to normal voltage so I turned it back to normal.

Measured the voltage between the batteries and they were all within 1/10 of a volt of each other.  Good news...

So I'm guessing if you have a decent inverter that has that option it may not be necessary to run a pulsing desuplhator.  But if you have a lame battery it might be the only thing that can bring it back to life.

Robert
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: Doug on May 05, 2007, 03:09:59 AM
Its not the same thing but the Nic Cad batteries I service that provide the back up power to the 13.8 kV switch gear at work has an equalization pulse charge. I hit the button and it hits the stack with a high current pulsing charge to blow the wiskers off the plates. Seems to me that the same thing will knock the hard sulphate off a lead cell given a little time.

That much said when you blow the hard sulphate crystals off a lead plate, they fall off and sink to the botom of a cell. My point is you shouldn't let a battery discharge too long and form a hard sulphate on the plates do to lack of proper charging and reconditioning charges in the first place.

My Johny light has Nicads in it. I perform a recon charge every month and get a light that lasts a shift. Some guys can't get their batteries to last a full shift and send them to the lamp man who fixes them at his own pace.......
( a loner cap lamp from first aid is like borrowing a mecanics spare car lol)
Doug 
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: rmchambers on May 05, 2007, 03:32:44 AM
the pulsing desulphater knocks the crystals off the plates.  the equalization charge "boils" for want of a better word, the electrolyte and stirs it all up so it doesn't stratify with the more concentrated acid at the bottom and mostly water at the top layers.  That's the way it was explained to me anyway.

As for Nicads, I had some in my aviation handheld radio, horrible things.  I found a site on the net that sells the same shape/size/voltage battery in NiMH and ordered enough to rebuild my battery pack (fiddly job).  I've been very happy with the results, so much so that I rebuilt another pack.  My radios outlast any Nicad pack powered ones.
Title: Re: Battery de-sulphater
Post by: Doug on May 05, 2007, 03:36:59 AM
I deal with flooded wet cells.

The caustic burns my hands.......

They suck, unless I can get some for free and take them home. Everything changes then lol.