Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: listerclone on February 03, 2023, 09:23:32 AM
-
Hi All. I am a master-tech auto guy who is helping a friend with his CS 16-2. It was only hitting on one cylinder and I started moving fuel injectors, etc. back and forth seeing if I could find the problem. I adjusted a fuel pump incorrectly and broke the fuel pump cam shear pin. I thought this was a genuine Lister and used a genuine Lister manual to disassemble. I replaced the broken shear pin and when attempting to reinstall the cam I found that there were no marks on the gears. Then the guy who runs Stationary Engine Parts told me if it doesn't have marks on the gears it is a Lister clone.
I have yet to find someone who can explain how to time this engine with no gear marks.
Hope someone here can help - Thanks
Daniel Bal
Hawaii Island
-
Link to my Youtube channel and a video that explains it. On a twin you can use either cylinder but if you use #2 at TDC the #1 crank throw. will be out of the way to install the idler gear.
https://youtu.be/irFF4LSZZfg
-
I should have added that when doing this on an assembled engine you usebtbe timing marks on the flywheels instead of looking down in the block as in the video amd its a real pain to get the idler installed. All in all it a whole lot easier to find marks or mark the gears prior to dissasembly as you are about to find out
-
Thanks for the quick reply. I watched your video and now have a lot of questions.
Is it possible to spend a few minutes talking on the phone?
Daniel Bal
808-960-7406
-
Hi. I would be happy to initiate the call. I just need a number and the time you might be willing to talk for 5 minutes. Your time would be very much appreciated.
If speaking to you is not an option, I could write out questions as they come up. If you would rather do that I will get started.
Thanks - Daniel Bal
-
Get a degree wheel...like the BIG one staring you in the face (the flywheel!). Mark it off at TDC, and ~ 20-24 BTDC. Get a dial indicator and a stand. Find TDC. Mark it HEAVY on the wheel, referencing something good and solid on the base.
Next- Find the START (0.050" rise) of the exhaust valve opening. Find the END (0.050" before the base circle) of the intake closing. Split the difference. Make your cam position so that the center point coincides with TDC.
Next- Set your squirt timing so that it STARTS to pump 20-24 degrees before TDC. (It may be that the factory spec is 18-20 degrees...)...but IF you can get 24-26 degrees BTDC for the START, then your engine will run more efficiently. I have found that IF you take a spare injector, and a spare high pressure line, and bend it so that it's attached to the actual pump AND lined up with the mark of TDC, then you can really hone in on the true timing....Make both pumps the same timing!
-
Thanks to both of you for the suggestions, I am getting a clearer picture now. Right now both of the big flywheels are removed as well as all the stuff you have to take off to remove the camshaft assembly. It looks like my first job is to remove the idler gear and since this is a twin it's looks like I have to work through the rear cover. 38ac noted that it is very difficult to reinstall the idler gear with the piston and cylinder in place. Is it worth it to remove the No. 2 cylinder assembly to make the idler gear easier?
Once the idler gear is out of the way I should be able to install the cam. At this point I don't know if I should install the flywheel or not. If I have removed the No. 2 piston/cylinder then I probably don't need to install the flywheel and can time the engine as in the video. However, if I find that I can access the idler well enough with the piston installed but at top dead center, I probably won't remove it, and would then install the flywheel and mark it as powdermonkey suggested.
Once the engine is timed and the idler is back in I will start putting the fuel system back together. I don't remember how it works but may be able to figure out your instructions once I get back into it.
PLease let me know if you think my logic has gone astray here, and thanks again. Dan
-
And the plot thickens. How did you get the camshaft out? I hope you tied the lifters up and didn't remove them!! You do not have to remove the cylinder block or the idler gear as long as you can find the timing mark in the flywheels. When the mark is straight up, centered in the block casting you are at TDC. Next confirm that #1 , (which is the cylinder closest to the large cam cover and governor end of cam) is at TDC by looking in tbe crankcase. The flywheels are NOT the same and MUST be installed on the correct side. Once you have confirmed all that look at the cam lobes and visually put them at overlap and put the cam in the engine and let the lifters down on it. Now rock the engine back and forth until the lifters are at overlap as discribed on my video and look at the timing mark. If its at TDC then you are OK, if not leave the engine where it is and mark thee cam gear where it meshes. NOT the idler, the CAM gear. Then pull the camshaft out far enough that the gears are out of mesh. Then rotate the engine to TDC and reinstall the camshaft with the marked teeth in mesh. Done, your in time. Confirm by rotating back while looking again. Past that I assume you realize that the #2 injection cam lobe is held on with a tapered pin and must be correctly installed?
-
Ha! The plot is already pretty thick at my end. Last question first. I read in the Lister manual that the shear pins were #6 taper pins. I found them at McMaster-Carr and after three orders managed to get the right ones. I had two to replace. After hammering the pins tight I mushroomed both ends to look exactly like the ones that already there.
Boy, if I could time this engine without removing the idler gear or the cylinder that would make me a much happier camper. I have a few questions. When standing in front of the engine on the oil pump side, No. 1 is on the right? I assumed the opposite.
I did not tie up the lifters but they are still in there. I wasn't worried because the manual says to use heavy grease to hold them up, and I assumed it wasn't difficult. Before I do anything else I will secure them.
I wasn't aware that there is an existing TDC mark on the flywheel. Powdermonkey suggested I would have to mark it myself. Where on the flywheel would I look for this mark?
I think I understand everything up until marking the cam gear. It seems like you are saying the cam gear will mesh with the idler gear exactly the same before and after turning the engine to TDC. How is that possible? Also, don't know what this means, "Confirm by rotating back and looking again."
Thanks for the help - Dan
-
A spring loaded cloths pin works to hold up the lifters.
-
Ha! The plot is already pretty thick at my end. Last question first. I read in the Lister manual that the shear pins were #6 taper pins. I found them at McMaster-Carr and after three orders managed to get the right ones. I had two to replace. After hammering the pins tight I mushroomed both ends to look exactly like the ones that already there.There is no need to mushroom the taper pins
Boy, if I could time this engine without removing the idler gear or the cylinder that would make me a much happier camper. I have a few questions. When standing in front of the engine on the oil pump side, No. 1 is on the right? I assumed the opposite.Correct
I did not tie up the lifters but they are still in there. I wasn't worried because the manual says to use heavy grease to hold them up, and I assumed it wasn't difficult. Before I do anything else I will secure them.
I wasn't aware that there is an existing TDC mark on the flywheel. Powdermonkey suggested I would have to mark it myself. Where on the flywheel would I look for this mark? I guess I'm a bit confused if you have a CS or a clone. All CS are marked, most clones are not. The marks are on the face of the rim. Sand it off and look for a line. This is TDC when straight up. About 4 inches from the line there will be a lightning bolt. It is always very faint and you must look hard to see it. This is the spill timig mark for injection. Remember the flywheels must be installed on the correct side of the engine AND with the correct side out. .
I think I understand everything up until marking the cam gear. It seems like you are saying the cam gear will mesh with the idler gear exactly the same before and after turning the engine to TDC. How is that possible? Also, don't know what this means, "Confirm by rotating back and looking again."I'm not sure to to put it any more clear than the first time, I didn't go to school for teaching, LOL. In order to put the engine in time without removing the gear you must find the correct position for the cam. Forget about the crankshaft at this stage its not material. In order to find the cam position it must be in the engine unless you want to spend a week building a jig? With the cam installed turn the crankshaft until the #1 cylinder lifters are in the position described before by me and Powder monkey. Forget about the crank position it makes no difference at this juncture Now that you have the cam in the correct position you must mark THE CAM GEAR it so it can be reinstalled when the crankshaft is in the correct position. You can see the gear mesh to the idler on the RH side. Either mark one tooth or two, then take a picture with your phone of how those marks line up on the idler gear. Next pull the cam out far enough that its out of mesh with the idler. Next move the crankshaft to TDC. Then install the camshaft so the marked teeth are meshing the idler same as before, NOT HE SAME IDLER TEETH but the marked cam gear teeth meshing the idler gear in the same manner as when you marked them. Finally check your work by rocking the engine back and forth near TDC while watching the lifters. Stop when they are correctly positioned and then look at your TDC mark. It should be at TDC
Thanks for the help - Dan
-
Here is a gear set sitting on my bench and showing a mark on the cam gear. I would use a punch mark instead of a marker in real use. As you can see the mark easily can be remeshed correctly no matter how the idler gear would be turned. Remember its the cam gear we are worried about, NOT the exact teeth on the idler which will change when you rotate the crankshaft. You can see this gear relationship with the parts in the engine block.
-
Here are the flywheel marks on a 16/2 currently in my shop. Notice the 2? tvus means they are used for the #2 cylinder. Not all flywheels will have the #2 marks, just #1. If your flywheels are unmarked then you will have to find TDC and mark them
-
This is some great information, thanks. I will be working on this engine in a few hours and finally feel like I know what I am doing. Will let you know how it goes. Dan
-
Hi Dan, Gentles
If it helps you can either take a look at my thread.
But remember 38AC (Butch) is a Guru, and only a few have his knowldge!
See here: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8320.msg102265#msg102265
Cheers
VP
-
I made a house call on the Listeroid on Thursday and here's how it went. The first thing I did was secure the lifters with tie wraps. Then I looked for marks on the flywheel similar to what 38ac showed me. There were none that I can see. Are the marks thin enough that a coat of green paint would completely cover them? If I have to find TDC where is the best place to reference the top of the piston? Can I put a rod through the injector mount?
As you can see from the pictures, the flywheel will be in the way when installing the cam. Here is my guess, again, at a procedure. Hope there is an easier way. First install the cam at the guestimated position. Next install flywheel and gib key lightly? Go through the cam timing procedure. Remove flywheel and install cam cover and fuel pump. Reinstall flywheel and install gib key tightly. Where is the best place to buy two gib keys?
So, this is where I am so far. Thanks for taking an interest. Dan
The software tells me that my picture did not pass a security check??
-
Hi Dan, I don`t know where to buy Gib keys where you live. they are available from Old Timer Engines here in Australia and also from Stationary Engine Parts in the Uk. I`m sure 38ac would know where to get them and probably has some. Be careful with these, the original spec for a tapered gib key was 1 in 48, metric keys are 1 in 50, they don`t fit well if you get the wrong ones. They should be smeared with engineers blue and adjusted to a perfect fit with a file.
The problem you are having with posting pictures is the file size. Most modern phones and cameras produce pictures with a massive file size. Have a look at the settings on your camera and see if it has a setting for Email.
Bob
-
I have Gibb keys in stock. No, you cannot reach the piston through the injector hole on an indirect injection Lister . Some of the clones are direct injected and can be.
Flywheel in the way? Yes. Is it an issue? No. Use the other one and leave the #1 side off ??? ???
To find top dead center you first need a pointer and a refferance. Mount the #2 flywheel and lightly secure with a key. Next using a piece of heavy wire, or flat stock make a pointer on one end. You attach it to any handy bolt. Point it at the flywheel rim, the closer without touching the better. Next you need to decompress the #2 cylinder. This can be done by loosening the injector. Next turn the crankshaft so the keyways are at 3 or 9 o'clock makes no differance which way. Now on the number one cylinder you need to block the exhaust valve open as shown in the attached picture, not just a little bit open but as far as you can. Use a vise grip on the rocker to pull it open. Next carefully turn the engine until the piston hits the exhaust valve. Put a mark on the flywheel at the pointer. Next turn the engine the other way until it hits again. Place a mark under the pointer. Care fully measure between the two marks. Divide measurement by 2. and place a mark exactly halfway between. Cylider 1 is TDC when at the pointer is at your TDC mark. Remove the block holding the valve open. Rotate the engine to your TDC mark.
-
Hi Dan, Gentles
If it helps you can either take a look at my thread, here: See here for timing without marks: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8320.msg102265#msg102265
Cheers
VP
-
sirpedrosa: I looked at your thread and was wowed by the job you did. The pictures were great. The measurements for marking the flywheel are very helpful.
38ac: Every time I get a post from you I get a big grin inside my head. I have found TDC several times using the method you describe. They were gas engines using a piston stop through the spark plug hole. Looking at this Listeroid, using that method never crossed my mind. Using the exhaust valve for a piston stop is so clever.
The first thing I removed from this engine was the #2 flywheel, and then the cam cover on the #2 side. As I recall, it's been a while, that cover doesn't interfere with the cam going in and out. I should be able to install it before I put the #2 flywheel back on. Oh, using the opposite side flywheel for the timing is another clever idea I would not have thought of.
Lastly, besides thanks, I would like to order two gib keys right away. Please let me know how to do that.
Dan
-
Sent you a PM, My buisiness is not conducted on open forums
-
38ac, I received the two gib keys today, thanks for the great service.
I have a standing appointment every Thursday afternoon to work on this engine. Since I see that there are about 500 people following this thread I will keep you all updated and will figure out how to post pictures. Besides, it is likely that I will have more questions.
My next step is to install the cam cover on the #2 side and then the #2 flywheel. Then I will be making a timing pointer and finding and marking TDC on said flywheel. Will also mark 20 degrees (I think) BTDC.