Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Original Lister Cs Engines => Topic started by: Black Dog on January 27, 2023, 11:32:25 PM
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Good day all, this is my first post here so I hope I am doing things correctly.
About 25 years ago I purchased a CS 12-2 in a farm auction as the crank was missing I never tried to start her. Stashed her in the barn for a rainy day. Last week I decided I needed a winter project so I moved her into the shop. I rebult a couple of Petter engines about 40 years ago when in the UK they were on "Dumpers". So not completly green.
So far I have found an oil pipe from the oil maifold laying in the sump, the union nut was broken and the solder repair hadn't lasted. Although she turns over very easily the big end bearings need replacing. Removed the heads and blocks. Valves aren't to bad. A small piece of linner skirt was broken off and also in the sump. A con rod must have conected with it at some time. Bores are excellent and rings appear good. With the big end bearings gone I decided to check the main bearing, she is not good. Oh well "in fior a penny in for a pound". Time to remove the crank.
I had been soaking the gib keys in penetrating oil for a week, had a local machine shop mke me a HD key puller but no luck. I can crack the key heads before they will move, they are welded and waiting for tomorrow.
My question to anyone who has worked on these engines, how hot can you heat the flywheel hub? I have a large "Rose Bud" tip on my torch and had to heat the flat belt drive pully hub cherry red before I could loosen the set screw and remove her. I think this would be a littel excessive for a flywheel!
Any suggestions would be welcolm
Black Dog. Manitoba, Canada.
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Hello and welcome to the LEF. Those Gibb keys can be real stubborn. Put your puller back on and pull all your dare without breaking anything. Next you need a heavy duty punch. I use a foot long piece of shafting with a handle welded to it. Lacking that a 4 lb hammer will do. Have a helper hold the punch or hammer against the hub of the flywheel. and using at least an 8 lb sledge hit the punch like your tryiing to to break it. Hit it HARD. This will move the flywheel in while the puller holds the key loosening it.. Keep hitting the hub and tightening the puller until the hub is against the main bearing housing, then the key should pull out with the puller
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Thanks for your input 38ac. I put my gib key puller on (She is made out of 3/4 plate with 9/16 bolts) tighten bolts as hard as I could with a small wrench and smacked the flywheel at 12 and 6 o'clock with my largest sledge. After a few hits I retightened the bolts. In 20 mins I slid the flywheel off. Then repeated the process with the second flywheel in another 20 mins. Crankshaft is now out and I have to decide how much I want to spend on new parts.
Cheers BlackDog
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Well done Black Dog, some photos would be nice.
I don`t know where you would buy parts in Canada, 38ac keeps a good selection of spares in the USA. He recently posted that he was ordering a whole lot of spares from India, you might want to contact him and let him know what you need.
Good luck with the old girl.
Bob
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I would be pleased to post photos if some could explain how to. Now I have to decide if I get the crank ground and If I do that then maybe it would be worth having the valve seats recut?
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Hi Black Dog, next time you post something, have a look for the Attachments and other options button, just below where you type your message. Click on the button and it will allow you add pictures and pdf documents. There is a limit on how big the data is, I had to turn down the resolution on my camera.
How bad are the big end crank journals? Are you planning to put this engine to work or take it to a show or two? The big end bearing caps have small shims that can be removed to allow for some amount of wear in the crankshaft, a new set of bearing shells might be adequate.
Bob
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I tried attaching two photos. The big end would be OK with new shells but the center main bearing and the # 1 main bearing are bad. Not planning of putting her into work but if going to rebuild I think I should do a "proper" job.
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Second photo
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Hi BD
FWIW you can see my thread here, onwards: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8320.msg100396#msg100396
Burned babit is always an issue, but nothing that cant be fixed.
Take care.
VP
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Thanks Bob,
Yes I have all nornally used CS and India clone parts and quite a few not so normally used. Beside standard sizes I also stock oversize pistons and undersized big end bearings. Center mains for the twins are in standard size are on my current order due to ship soon.
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Hi Black Dog, the center main bearing can be reground, undersized bearings are available here in 10 thou increments up to minus 40 thou. Not much you can do about #1 bearing as the bush style bearings only come in one size. It might be possible to build up the worn area by welding or metal spraying then regrinding, could be expensive. Here in Australia a replacement crank is listed at six hundred and twenty five Australian dollars. Don`t know what that would be in Canadian Dollars.
38ac would be able to tell you what the wear limits on the crank journals are, don`t forget this is a slow speed engine so the wear limits are quite generous.
I suspect the broken oil pipe you found in the sump has starved some of the bearings of lubrication.
Bob
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Thanks for all the imput.
I think oil starvation was definitely the problem with the main bearings. The big ends got away with it (almost!) as they scoop up the oil, new shells should fix them. i will get the center main bearing reground and fit undersize shells. I will fit two new main bearing bushings and keep my fingers crossed that I have no problems.
The following photos show how the main bearing bushings had both the srew hole and oil pathed blocked! Completly solid on the LHS which over heated and partial blocked on the RHS. I punched out the plug on the LHS, see photo.
38ac if you have a CS engine parts price list please e-mail to John@wolverinesupplies.com although I would prefer NOS rather than Indian if I can find them, thanks.
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This Lister has massive flywheels with the "kidney" shaped holes, are these normal? Also has her own radiator.
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More photos
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The flywheels are the heavy flywheel option. They were usually specified for generator duty but I also suspect the were used anywhere there was a large variable load.
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Be sure the flywheels go back on the same side they came from due to the offset weight being on opposite sides. There are some NOS parts around but usually at prices for the wealthy. Also be aware of India parts being sold in LP boxes. I wont tackle that subject publicly but if you want to know who and what then send a PM. There are zero quality issues with most India parts that are made in actual factories. Pistons, rings, bearings, valves , fuel injection are all good stuff.
I'm not trying to alter your direction or pull a sales pitch for my parts business, just adding knowledge for you.
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I agree with 38ac, most of the Indian parts I have had have been very good quality. The only issue I had with a new crankshaft for my CS6/1 was that the end float was excessive and I had to fit shims between the main bearing bushes and their housings.
Check any new parts you are using for casting sand, I found lots inside a new piston.
How does the camshaft look? The governor weight pivot pins on mine were badly worn.
Bob
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Be sure the flywheels go back on the same side they came from due to the offset weight being on opposite sides. There are some NOS parts around but usually at prices for the wealthy. Also be aware of India parts being sold in LP boxes. I wont tackle that subject publicly but if you want to know who and what then send a PM. There are zero quality issues with most India parts that are made in actual factories. Pistons, rings, bearings, valves , fuel injection are all good stuff.
I'm not trying to alter your direction or pull a sales pitch for my parts business, just adding knowledge for you.
Thanks for your message, I appreciate your insite. I will just have to wait for the verdict on my crank before I move on to the next stage.
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This is turning out to be a much bigger job than I expected. Considering a new crank and we go up from there. What are these engines worth? I am not doing this to make money, I am really keen just to have the old girl running again but it would be silly to spend four times what she is worth. I am not planning to sell her anyway.
Some idea of value for an overhauled running original Lister 12 - 2 12 HP 650 rpm please?
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There are many more CS Listers in Canada than here in the states thus they bring less money there.. Recent sales of CS twins here in the states that I am aware of range from $500 to $5000 with the low end being poor condition and the high end freshly and completely rebuilt.
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I have a mass of new parts from India so time to start reassembly. Any one have any tips on the installation of the crank shaft? it looks like it is going to be a "fun" job. Cheers
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With the outside bearing housings loosely installed and the center bearing installed and tight. push and pull on the crankshaft to get an idea of the total end play. An indicator is of course best but not mandatory. Then remove about half the end play by shimming and tightening one of the end housings. Then shim the otber houzing so as to have .010-.015" and play. with everytbing tightened up. In short the goal is to have the and play controlled by the end housings NOT the center main. End play may be accomplished by feel but with an indicator costing $20 why? The crankshaftshaft should turn easily by hand when installed. Often times it takes a few whacks with a soft mallet to accomplish that. Leave the housings snug, not loose and not tight. Then knock crankshaft up and down, sideways and end ways. Remember I said a mallet, not a sledge hammer and your not trying to break it! just adjust it!!
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Thanks, that makes perfect sense. Is it normal for the main bearing shells to want to "spring" out of place? They will not sit in their housing.
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Yes, the last few sets I have installed had to be tapped into place. Its a good thing that they are tight in the housing but they should stay in place once knocked into place and not pop back out.
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I have just discovered that my new crank (From India) has no timing marks on it! Any suggestions how I can add my own and get it correct first time!