Lister Engine Forum
How to / DIY => Engines => Topic started by: cobbadog on December 22, 2022, 05:16:08 AM
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I have this CD8 diesel engine and when it came to me it was from a farm and use to drive a generator for the old farm house. When it came home to live with me the generator was long gone. Now I understand that this is a 'tropical' model when they run a radiator (I have the original honey comb radiator but it leaks like a sieve) but when it arrived here it had no oil tank and there was a rubber hose looped around to complete the flow of oil. This idea worked a treat until the engine built up too much oil pressure in the hose and would blow it off but the engine ran beautifully.
Since then I built my own oil tank and plumbed it in also fitting a free flow oil filter in line. I also added a good fuel filter to keep the fuel lines nice and clean.
I had put the engine under cover for about a year and now I am having issues with oil. What happens is I start the engine and run it at about idle and at that speed I hooked up a pressure gauge where the original gauge is and it reads 28psi more than needed going by some paper work I have. After about 4-5 minutes of running at idle it locks up as if there is no oil or pressure. I have to use a plumbers wrench to wind the engine backwards to unlock it. This scares me as I don't want to stuff a good engine and I need some help in resolving this problem please.
First shows the engine on my home made transporter.
Second shows the in line oil filter
Last shows the engine ID tag
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I will post all the information I have on how the oil is suppose to circulate but I am unsure of some of the pipes and would like any and all corrections pointed out and to identify "B and J" as I do not know what they are suppose to do. Once I have all the correct information I can go out and uncover the engine and start following all the lines and check things over again to make it run again as it should. Sorry I do not have any current pictures but should have some from tomorrow. I will post 3 pages of what I have and the first one I have labelled what I believe to be correct. If there is any other information available I would appreciate it as well.
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Looking forward to the pics. It looks like your suspicions are right to me. Pipe J looks like the oil supply to the pressure pump from the tank and Pipe B looks like the pressure supply line from the pressure pump to the pressure regulating valve.
Where are you taking the pressure reading? I wonder if something is going on with the bypass valve causing the engine to starve for oil as well as not properly relieving to the tank. Seems like maybe the problem has been there since the rubber hose days.
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Here we go.
After taking off the covers in over 2 years I started checking everything that I had done in order to fit my home made oil tank, in line filters for both oil and fuel. I had foolishly left the oil tap open and all oil from the tank had gone to the sump. So with decompression lever holding the valve open and the oil tap now closed, I cranked and cranked until all oil stopped returning to the tank. It looked a bit low so I added about another litre of oil to it. Now I can only guess the quantity of oil going by the size of the tank and guess that at the level of the oil now it has around 5 litres, just over an Imperial gallon. Next was to make sure that the fuel bowl and filter were good as it looked as if there was a bit of contamination in both. Cleaned the bowl at the tap and then took the bottom off the filter to clean that clear plastic bowl. Not a lot had to be cleaned out but it got done so I could eliminate these things. Rocker cover off and oiled the rockers as they explain in the book and fitted that back in place. I roughly bled the fuel line to the bleed nipple at the filter housing and got fuel out of that. I checked that the rack was free to move fully from STOP to open and this was a tiny bit sticky so I sprayed some Lanox on the shaft and it came good. I set the fast idle metal lug that holds the rack partially open and usually in that position it starts and runs fine. Happy with what I had done I decided to start it up. 2 swings on the crank and drop the decompression lever and it was away ticking over just above idle and sounding so good to hear it live again. After a few minutes it was sounding odd and it was then I noticed that I did not turn the fuel back on and was starving for fuel.
Yes that is over 2 years worth of Mango tree leaves under the home made trolley.
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Next are some closer pics of the oil tank I made and how the inline oil filter was fitted and of the twin oil pumps, one constant pressure to the engine and the other is the scavenger pump to run a dry sump.
Sorry you asked where I measured the oil pressure. That was done from the line that goes to the original gauge for oil pressure and engine temp.
With further investigation and help from broncodriver I have now confirmed that;
K is the scavenger pump return line to the regulating valve.
B is the Pressure supply to the regulating valve.
J is supply to the pressure pump.
It appears that all the plumbing is correct and going to all the right places.
Now after having to fully bleed the whole system again. The first 2 stages are easy with just using gravity to get to the bleed screw on the fuel filter. After that I removed the line at the pump and again cranked and cranked until I got a nice constant amount of fuel pushing gently up from the top. Next disconnect it at the injector, or where the fuel line goes into the rocker cover. After a heap cranking again I got the same amount of fuel dribbling out of the line so I connected it up. Did another start up this time confirming both oil and fuel taps were on and away it went again. Still running for a while until again a different sound happened and the engine was shutting down as if it was out of fuel again. To morrow is another day and will have another look at the fuel supply system but maybe I need to really get inside the fuel filter housing and check all is well inside.
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Here is a link to Ray running all be it rough. You can hear the rev range alter slightly at times and sometimes the transporter get a bit of a bounce up then goes away.
https://youtu.be/UjEJp8P6FT4
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Here is the latest. It appears that I now have all the air out of the fuel system so that is a good thing. I wanted to double check the oil pressure where the original non working gauge sits as this is the end of the oil line after running through the crank shaft. I know this gauge is as old as I am but it works and shows 26 psi which is more than the manual asks for of 15 - 20 psi.
So I started Ray up again and he was happily ticking over with the rack held open using that little metal lug which would roughly be about 1/4 throttle. HE ran for quite some time but then it started to lock up as it did before and I still had oil pressure. In order to free it up I use a set of stillsons to wind it backwards to allow it to let go. I felt the head and I could leave my bare hand on it and the top of the radiator was only just warm. I feel I have plenty of coolant in the system because I opened the drain cock at the bottom of the block and the level went down in the radiator.
Is there a bleed screw for trapped air in the head that I dont know about?
So I let it sit there for about 10 minutes and started him up again and as usual he always fires up easily. This time the lock happened a bit earlier so I am thinking that maybe it has something to do with temperature of the engine, but what?
Could there be a cracked ring that would or could cause this?
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Is there any way to check the oil level in the engine? Any oil slobbering out of the exhaust? Can you see oil returning to the tank through the inspection door?
Definitely something odd going on towards the end of your video. Sounds like either a loss of fuel or compression. The hopping may just be a resonnant vibration.
Could also be hydralocking either from a buildup of sump oil or fuel/oil in a cylinder. If you have excess oil pressure there is no telling what that may cause. If lister specified a certain oil pressure they likely had a good reason. I would be tempted to pull the inspection cover on the engine and have a peek around for anything obvious. You should be able to get a peek at the bottom of the cylinder bores while in there. I would also at least temporarilly install a know good/accurate oil pressure gauge and adjust the bypass valve as needed to get oil pressure within range.
Looking at the design of the bypass valve it looks like it is possible for the scavenge pump to build enough pressure on the back side of the pressure pump bypass spool to prevent it from bypassing if the outlet/return to the tank is not free flowing and unrestricted. I don't know that that could cause any issues but just for the sake of being thorough. Also, if the oil filter housing is not plumbed in the correct direction you could be working against an anti-drainback valve in the cartridge. Again not sure if that would cause a problem but I would check it.
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Cheers broncodriver.
With a dry sump there is no dipstick but by opening the top of the oil tank you can clearly see the oil returning at full speed. The diamter of the pipes used for the plumbing I did was exactly the same diamter as all the original pipes so no restriction there.
That bouncing and change in sound is curious but feel that the revs had changed slightly and causes resonnance bounce. Well thats my trian of thought at the moment.
I can easily adjust the oil pressure back at the pressure valve block and that very old gauge has been hooked up with a new gauge at the same time on the old David Brown tractor and read the same. So in time I will drop it back to being with in spec.
The oil filter has been connected in the correct orientation and so we can forget that one.
Later this afternoon after much thought and thinking of the possibilties I will lift thead off and piston out so I can get a good look at the bore and condition of the rings and bottom end main bearing. I believe it is either bearing or ring locking up. Have priced the parts already so will start on Boxing Day and go exploring.
Thank you for your thoughts and help in this matter I appreciate it very much. Have a wonderful Chrisatmas and stay warm over there while we sweat it out here.
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Thank you for your thoughts and help in this matter I appreciate it very much. Have a wonderful Christmas and stay warm over there while we sweat it out here.
You are quite welcome and I hope you have a Merry Christmas as well.
It is quite chilly here this morning. 14 F(-10 C) with wind chills around 0 F(-18 C) and quite windy. It got down to 6 F(-14 C) last night I would definitely trade you for a little of that warmth today. Of course this is Tshirt weather to my Canadian neighbors to the north. Most of North America is going to experience the coldest Christmas in decades this year. I hope you guys aren't getting the opposite.
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Hi Guys, merry Christmas to you all. For what it`s worth, Bicheno Tasmania is expecting a balmy 26 centigrade today, I expect it will be around 40 where Cobbadog lives.
Has this problematic engine had any major work done before it came to you? I`m thinking the piston ring gap is too tight causing them to bind as the engine warms up.
How is the piston lubricated? I am guessing there is an oil thrower/dipper on the bottom of the big end bearing cap. Check that it is still there.
Bob
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Too bloody cold for me over there so stay warm.
Well we are blessed today will only be around 28'c which is good for Summer temps, any hotter I'm looking for shade or somewhere cooler. Get less tolerant to stuff as I age disgracefully.
Oddly enough I have had this engine running for longer periods of time in the past and this issue has started after it has sat around for a couple of years.
Now I have no known history of the engine prior to it comming to live here only that it was coupled to a generator on a farm about an hour South of me at Buladelah. Ring gap is sounding the most likely culprit so will know more once the piston is out. I have check that the ring gap should be 0.012" - 0.016" at the bottom of the bore. So Boxing Day is when I pull the head and piston out and start checking everything possible that I can think of.
Now as to how this engine lubricates the piston is unknown to me as I have not had it apart so I will have a look but thought maybe running a dry sump it must be pressure fed and not splash. The high pressure oil line enters the crankcase on the crank handle side then guessing it runs through the main bearing that side then to the big end then to the 2nd main bearing and finally onto the oil pressure gauge.
Will let you know what I find or dont find soon.
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Started the strip down today. Radiator and fuel tank off then the oil tank as well followed by the crankcase cover near the oil tank. Once that was off I could see the bottom of the skirt of the piston and it was very wet with oil which is what I wanted to see.
Does anyone know how this gets oil on it here as there is no sign of a scoop on the conrod but there is a funny shape on the insides of the counterweights that might do the scooping?
But being a dry sump where is the oil being picked up from?
Lister win the race for worlds longest head studs. Never seen anything this long before. Head off and there is no movement in the piston at TDC or anywhere down the bore to BDC. Bore looks great with a small amount of carbon around the top which will have to be removed to lift the piston up and out.
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Well the head weighs a bloody ton and when undoing the head nuts 2 main studs unwound as well as one of the rocker gear studs came out. Will fix these up after a clean up and some locktite. The bore measures up quite good actually. At the top just below the carbon ring it measures 4.499" which 0.001" under standard. With the piston at BDC (about the middle of the bore it measures 4.493" which is 0.004" undersize from the top of the bore. Standard size is 4.500"
Tomorrow I need to remove this side to get to the big end bolts. Is there any thing I need to know before undoing and removing the vertical shaft which is on the governor shaft?
How do I check the fuel timing before removing this side cover or is it a fixed setting?
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Unusual to find the bore is undersized, I would have expected it to be worn and oversize. Have a look at the piston skirt when you get it out, could it be binding due to lack of clearance? You could probably hone it but 4 thou is a lot to remove with a hone. I think I`d have it bored out to 4.5"
Don`t know the answers to your questions, good luck,
Bob
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Yes, Bob. I will double check those numbers but when I looked closer at the it looks as if it was binding plus there is an indication of scrapes on the bore that look like shiney spots. I can't see how I can undo the other side of the big end bearing cap unless that side come off. I think it is tight enough to get to the one I can see.
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If it`s got to come off it`s got to come off. I guess we will work out how to set the timing later, are there timing marks on the flywheel? You can add cutting gaskets to you to do list, I doubt anyone has a gasket set.
Bob
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Well the large cover does simply lift off and not effect any timing issues. I took so much care removing it as not having a manual to guide me this is what you have to do. I removed the large spring that attaches to the arm for the pump and this gave me easy access to the big end bolt on this side of the engine. Now with the piston out I can see what was locking up, the 'pisstin''. The scuffs on one side are not as bad as the other where it looks like it may have some chromium attached to it. I have removed the rings from the piston and online piston ring sets as STD are available as is a full gasket kit including a copper head gasket from Old Timer Engines in Qld. I now need to start cleaning all the parts up and make some accurate measurements and place an order for parts.
1st pic you can see what is behind door #2.
2nd pic shows the better side of the piston.
3rd pic shows the bad side of the piston.
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Next is the big end bearing and bore.
1st pic shows the Big End cap half of the bearing.
2nd pic shows the conrod side.
3rd pic shows the bore. Not a good pic at all because of the light and no matter what I did could not get any better.
Basically there are some vertical scuffs but it is not too bad I dont think and should get away with a light hone depending on the numbers I find.
Again a lot to clean up here too so all this starts tomorrow and the wish list may continue.
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Nice work Cobbadog, getting that door off was a leap of faith. Did you find out how the piston is supposed to be lubricated? I can see how a wet sump system should provide enough splash lubrication but with a dry sump? Was this originally a dry sump unit or was it modified later?
Glad to hear Rob at Old Timer Engines has most of the bits you need.
I`m still confused as to how the bore is up to 7 thou undersize, has it been lined badly? I doubt Lister would have built it like that, perhaps it was originally built with a wet liner and the seals have failed allowing corrosion to constrict the bore size.
The big end crank journal looks good as do the lobes on the camshaft. I`d replace the bearing shells but you are not going to be relying on this engine for your main source of power so they are fine.
That piston is badly scored but will probably clean up OK, I`ve refitted seized 2 stroke pistons that looked worse than that without a problem.
Keep up the good work.
Bob
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Just a thought, what size is the piston? The bore looks like it still has some of the Listard chrome plating. Were these bored to 4.5" and then chrome plated? Perhaps a 10 thou coating with an undersized piston.
Bob
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Hi Bob,
It took me so long to unndo the bolts then carefully remove the cover peeping inside to see if anything was under tension and fly out at me. Fortunatley it is a simple cover and the pump and cam yiming are untouched, That large spring for the pump was easier than expected to remove or maybe I have done too many brake shoes on drum brakes over the years.
At the moment ignore thos numbers I posted. My new chinesium internal gauges told lies.What was happening is I would compress the ends and lock them in place. Then unlock them and let them fly out and then I would start to lock them remove it and take the measurement. It was not until today that I read those numbers again after having so much crap run around in whats left of my ageing grey matter. I discovered the tighter I did them up they would pull the ends in hence giving me those numbers. With more patience and time I will get new numbers and todays numbers show 0.003-0,004" wear in the bore at mid and near where the top of the piston rings would sit at the bottom of the stroke. Of course TDC n BDC read STD 4.5" which answers your question of STD size.
This is a CDM model meaning 'marine' model which run dry sump and wet sump depending on application. Now Lister used the marine model for boats and gen sets and this one being the high speed model would almost have to of been made as a genset from new and that was its job at the farm it came from.
The big end bearing is not on the website as a spare but I sent Rob an email today asking for a STD ring set, full gasket set and if he had a big end bearing. I am not concerned about the big end bearing really but asked just incase. I fully intend to put the piston in the lathe and tidy it up and make it respectable. I had to machine the skirt of the piston in the McDonald Super Imperial Diesel I brought back from the dead and after all the neigh sayers telling me you cannot and should not machine a piston and never the skirt I went ahead and did it with great success. After posting the pics of it in the lathe and what I had to fix then a video of it running it was funny as there were no more saying you cant do that. So this one will be tidied up and new rings and thrown back in.
I am guessing as I do not have much info on this engine only they told me where and what it did on a farm so previous history is a total guess. I have a lot of cleaning up to do and might make a start on that tomorrow but need to do some work around the yard and drag a goat out n cut grass, just dont know which goat yet.
Thanks for your onging interest and ideas.
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Attached is the only thing resembling a manual I could find.
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There are some specifications for how to measure the ring gap and what it should be in that manual. I could not find any wear limit data on the CD or CE engines but have wear data on a lot of other Lister engines and most all of them have the bores finished at size (nominal 4.5") -0.000/+0.001" Lister made up any clearnace needed in the piston size. I believe the CD/CE engines have a lot in common with the CS and JP engines. I will see if I have any wear data on the piston/cylinder.
That piston looks to me like it was either stuck at one point or a load of carbon made it's way between the piston and cylinder.
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I went through the wear limit data I have and below is what I have on other engines of similar design with a 4.5" bore. The CS 8/1, JP, and JK are pretty much identical. I would think the JP/JK numbers are what would have been used on a CD/CE engine. I used the 8/1 numbers as it has an aluminum piston like your CD. The 6/1 with it's iron piston has different specifications.
Nominal size 4.500"
Manufacturing limits(New):
-Cylinder: -0.000/+.0.002"
-Piston Top Land: -0.023/-0.025"
-Piston Skirt: -0.007/-0.008 for CS and -0.006/-0.007 for JP/JK
Max Difference(New):
-Piston Top Land: 0.027"
-Piston Skirt: 0.010" for CS and 0.009" for JP/JK
Allowable Wear:
Cylinder: 0.004"
Piston: 0.005"
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EXCEPTIONAL work thanks broncodriver.
All of that is very helpful. Especially the wear limits. I also found that the max wear recommended for the big end is 0.003" which is not a lot. Heading out the back to do some cleaning up. It was good info about too much oil pressure can cause a lock up as well. Also to check the oil galleries in the bearing and crank.
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Thanks Broncodriver, just what is needed to get the old girl going again.
Bob
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I too saw the 0.003" max clearance in the manual and thought that a little tight. I am guessing Lister is stating what it should be new or reconditioned. I remember hearing an old rule of thumb that ideal clearance is 0.001" for every inch diameter of the crank pin.
Here is the info I have on the big end:
Crank Pin Diameter: 2.5" Nominal for CS and 3" Nominal for JP/JK/JS engines
Manufacturing Limits(New):
Crank Pin Diameter: -0.002"/-0.0025" For all engines
Big End Bearing: +0.0005"/-0.0005" for CS and +0.001"/+0.0015" for JP/JK/JS Engines
Allowable Wear on the Big End Bearing: 0.007" for the CS and 0.005" for the JP/JK/JS Engines
So, it looks to me like you have a little more than 0.003" of clearance on the big end to play with. If I am reading right the absolute max would be somewhere around 0.008" which seems a little high. I am guessing the numbers Lister is providing are for measuring the crank pin and big end each directly and then calculating the clearance as these were the days before plastigauge. Nowadays you just bolt it all together and get a much more precise reading with a piece of plastigauge. I wouldn't be worried if you are in the 0.003-0.005" range, much past that and it is probably time to consider grinding the crankpin if necessary or maybe just fitting a new bearing if the crank pin measures within range.
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Once again thanks for the ongoing support.
I decided to play with the piston today and removed the conrod and took the piston to the lathe to clean it up. I used a dial indicator gauge and it showed 0.003" out of round. So I had previously washed the piston down with degreaser and then started with the wire brush while it turned about in the lathe. I then used a power hacksaw blade to start cleaning out the ring grooves. Finally I used some fine wet n dry paper on a flat file to polish up the skirt and then the top of the piston. This poor piston had had more hits than Elvis on the top but cleaned up ok. The area that looked as if there was chromium on the skirt also cleaned up fairly well but room for improvement. Tomorrow I want to drop the piston in the bore and check the clearance of skirt to bore using feeler gauges. Then I will decide whether to put it back in the lathe and make it round/er again. The other thing I read on the parts supplier is that they made 4 different ring sets and now I know why. The top compression and bottom oil rings are wider than the 2 middle compression rings. But what I took out was a thin oil ring the same width as the 2 middle compression rings. When I removed the gudgeon pin it broke a small amount of alloy out from around the hole, very small so I have filed that to be a bit smoother.
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I tightened up the cap so I can measure the bore of the big end bearing tomorrow and then cleaned up the conrod . I went to put the gudgeon pin back into the little end bush and it was as if it was biting a bit. So I stuck it in the lathe and machined the tiniest of a chamfer on each end. Now it fits both sides of the piston and the little end just right. There is no movement in the gudgeon and top bush and it is a firm fit in the piston so nothing to do here. Hopefully when the Lister spare parts man, Rob, gets over the Festive Season I will be able to confirm the parts I do need. I will measure the journal on the crank tomorrow and compare that to the bearing and see what sort of a shock I get, good or bad.
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OK
wear vs machining tolerances and nominal sizes
Nominal size-
This would be the inside diameter of a bearing or other female part of a moving assembly (aka cylinder liner). NEVER use nominal size as judgement of the usability of the male part. Only the female parts.
Machining tolerance-
In British manufacturing of that era the clearance of a rotating or sliding assembly was machined into the male part. In other words the crankshaft (or a piston). Figuring the allowable running clearances is as has been suggested. Its the manufacturing tolerance of the crankshaft (or the piston) at its maximum and minimum allowable sizes subtracted from the shaft (or cylinder) nominal size Thus you have two figures max and min. The inside diameter of a new bearing installed in the rod (IF the big end is still round AND the bearing is made correctly) should be the listed nominal diameter and when you subtract the two shaft figures that's your running clearance range with new or reground parts.
Wear-
The .003 wear figure quoted is ADDED to the maximum clearance of new parts to give you the maximum allowable running clearance. And yes it is quite large as compared to modern standards BUT. also remember that does not mean is OK to reuse parts that have .003 wear! very important detail there. That means at .003 wear you fix it, not put it together as OK. If it has .002 wear and you put it back together expect that you will soon be back in it. Also remember that wear takes into consideration both parts. A bearing with .002 wear installed on a shaft with .002 wear would be .004 wear and unacceptable.
As compared to the standard system of rebuild clearances used in the USA its confusing until one studies it. When I mentioned this to a British colleague who worked for Lister his rather gruff reply was "Lister assumed that if one had his fingers in an engine that he knew what the hell he was doing!" Uh OK
I hope I have clarified the technical data sheet specs and how to use them and not further confused things!!
If I was trying to save a worn piston the last thing I would do is take more metal from it to make it shiny and round. Scuffing is composed of low spots where metal was removed and (usually) high spots where metal was deposited. Removing the high spots is advisable but not the low. All depends on what one is going to do with the engine. For a work engine the specs should be held to. If its a play toy then you can get away with a lot and it will still provide running enjoyment.
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Hi 38c,
I had to read your reply a couple of times to follow what you are saying and is taken on board, thanks. It is funny how some people react to statements and can be even harder when it is the difference between Countries. I find something that when on a British Forum they call parts by different names and it is not until you have been reading them for a while that you automatically understand what they are saying. Just as an example a dynamo is a generator and it could have been something like a misunderstanding as to why your mate said "Lister assumed that if one had his fingers in an engine that he knew what the hell he was doing!". Well I have seen just the opposite over the years. Way too many butchers have had their hands inside engines and not know what the heck they were doing.
Thanks for your reply
Cheers Cobba
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Today was an easy day cleaning up the 2 long (26.5" long) head studs and using lock nuts and Loctite put them firmly back in place. I am yet to start cleaning out the water jackets that look bad but have seen worse.
During some cleaning up I remembered to have a look for the timing marks on the flywheel. I found them both, TDC and Spill Timing. Then I marked them using a silver oil pen to see them better then realised that once the radiator is back on you will not see them at all. So I used a set square and transferred them to the outside edge and used a cold chisel to imitate the same marks.
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Well I got good news and bad news about parts supply. I can get ring sets once I confirm the accurate sizes which I have done. 3/16" for both top compression and oil rings and 1/8" for the middle compression rings. No gasket sets available now even though they are on the website. Unsure about the big end bearing shells.
So I have put the conrod back into the piston after checking it is straight and not bent using a dial indicator gauge. It certainly helped with those tiny chamfers on the end of the gudgeon pin. Pin is secure in the piston and piston rocks on the pin. Started cleaning up some of the outside cover plates. Will look at the head tomorrow and may even drop the valves and lap them in. Also need to start on cleaning up the rust in the water jackets soon.
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Good work Cobba, yes you are never going to get this back to the same standard as 38ac (basically new) but you will have a very nice running engine to take to vintage engine rallies. If it smokes a bit and has a little piston slap that`s all part of the fun. I was at the rusty iron festival when they beat the world record for the number of vintage engines running at the same time, the noise and fumes were probably a terrible health hazard but I survived and enjoyed the experience.
When I was an apprentice in the RAF, I learned how to resilver worn bearing shells by recoating them and then hand scrapping them using engineers blue on the crankshaft .I haven`t done it in 45 years and no I`m not volunteering, but it can be done, they don`t look that bad to need replacing, no copper showing.
A nice collection of cleaned parts beginning to accumulate, What does the head gasket look like? Could be difficult to replace locally if it`s had it. They do sell them on the UK stationary engine site but they are not cheap at 66 pounds (about 130 dollars plus shipping).
How are you going to remove the limescale from the water passages? I`ve tried lots of different ways and now swear by brick acid (hydrochloric acid used for cleaning mortar stain off bricks). It`s quick and easy but will burn holes in you, it`s also the best thing I`ve ever found for cleaning limescale out of dirty old toilet bowls. Don`t leave it too long, it will eat steel as well as limescale and don`t breath the fumes!
I wish I still lived in NSW, I`d love to come and give you a hand but too much to do in Tasmania. Not quite the retirement I was expecting, still working 70+ hours a week, just not getting paid for it.
Keep up the good work, NO SURRENDER. :)
Bob
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Hi Bob,
The Rusty Iron Rally is our Club and we had our little Farm Pumper there for that record attempt as well. We do some of the scruitineering for our Club on Rally day. Only 9 engines on that day did not make the distance and considering the average age of the engines on display that is testimony to how well built these old engines were. In our compound there was a small Petter diesel that really made me wonder how on earth it started never mind run and taking care of the mosquito control with thick black smoke but it did make the distance.
Before I stripped Ray down he would only smoke right at start up and then all clear. As for cleaning out the rust and scale I always start by poking screw drivers and anything that fits down there, even coat hanger with a hook locked in the battery drill chuck and give it a run. I do have a bottle of hydrochloric acid as I have been using it on many things steel related. A long time back I had the drain tap out so will remove it again to allow the big bits to escape.
If this was going back to work then yes it would be a far more detailed rebuild but being a rally engine going out on ce or twice a year and clocking up 6 hours a day does not justify the expense of going all the way b ut I do appreciate the input. The old head gasket is in good condition with no creases and could go around again with some copper sealant. If I can source a new one locally then I would do it. The full gasket set from Old Timer Engines was listed at $55.00 inc GST but today I was told they are not available so asked if he had just a head gasket and I will make all the paper ones no problems.
We both retired last Christmas (12 months ago) and it is all bullshit that you get a rest. We rarely do some jobs and I am limiting that to some very good customers that supported me over the 27 years I was in business and the same for Dee with her curtain making. We have been able to spend about 4 months all up in 6-8 week blocks away with the caravan and the next run for up to 8 weeks starts in February. I have striped the tray on our 8 ton beavertail Hino and painted it up again, dug a 60 metre trench by hand which worked out to be 5 tons, load it into the box trailer and dump it then lay the pipe and gravel about another 4 tons. All with 2 stuffed shoulders. Been fixing the guttering around the house and all the sheds plus tried sealing the floor in one shed but have had no rain since to see if that worked. Now Ray is occupying some time and I enjoy it too.
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Re: engine butchers,
have you followed my 16/2 thread? LOL.
You are also indeed correct about having to factor in cultural differences when dealing with people, been a hard lesson for me as things become more global.
Your head gasket problems are easily solved by John at Gaskets To Go.
Look his web site and send him an email with your predicament. I have a large order in with him for Bamford joints
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Yes 38c I have been reading and commenting on your project of nightmares. I think all the companies/suppliers you haev mentioned are in the USA and freight would outweight any benefits in getting it here, There are a number of gaskets manufacturers here in Oz and if my supplier cannot find a single gasket then I have a one in good condition that can be used as a template. Closest to me is 30 klms south in Sydney.
The differences can be very interesting and eye opening and I find that it helps me understand things somewhat better if only I can remember it all.
I did do more today by cleaning up the outside of the head and cleaning out threads. Fortunately I have a good set of taps and dies in BSW and BSF as well as Metric and Imperial. Will post pics tomorrow
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I believe gaskets to go is out of Thailand. He is from the US but lives there. He is who makes the modern composite gaskets for the CS.
https://gasketstogo.com/
May be worth having a look.
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OK, sounds great. I find it confuisng when online and things are suggested but not sure what part of the world we are talking about. Will try and follow it up tomorrow.
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I started cleaning out the threads using my small set of BSF taps and dies. Then fitted the remaining head stud in the block and also the one in the head for the rocker gear. Is the gear on the camshaft only used in petrol engines for the magneto as it does not drive anything here?
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Here you can see my small set of BSF taps n dies. I also have a set of BSW in another box. The bottom pic is the Ranex Rustbuster by Bondall that I use for rust conversion. It is based on phosphoric acid like brickies use to clean the bricks at the end of a job. Cheap enough at Bunnings. You can see the tape I put on one of the outlets and the same on the opposite side to hold the acid in overnight. I ran out of straight Ranex so topped it up with water. End result was the same, rust converted to something more stable.
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Today I ordered the new set of rings and may be here by the end of this week, if not soon after that. I have had a reply from 'gasketstogo' and was asked for some extra information which I sent this morning so may hear back from them soon as well.
So just incase I cannot get another gasket I decided to clean the original one up as it does not look too bad but has been under torque for some time. You can see how it looked from when I removed it to now.
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Is it a copper sheet gasket or a multi layer gasket? If it is a copper sheet you may be able to just anneal it and reuse it worst case. I'm not sure if a multi layer gasket can be annealed for resue. Hopefully someone with more knowledge can make a suggestion about that.
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It is copper top n bottom, unknown in the middle. Hopefully not asbestos
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G`day Cobba, that gasket looks to have cleaned up very well. I would try reusing it if a replacement can`t be found. In the past I have done this successfully by applying a little aircraft gasket sealer to both mating faces. The product is too thick for easy application so I thin it down with methylated spirits and then apply thin coats with a soft paintbrush.
Bob
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Bob, in the past I have used a spray on copper gasket spray that is sticky and has worked well in the past, I think it is a Permatex product but another mob make a similar product. I have been told to anneal the gasket and that is simple to do but I dont think that this type of sandwich gasket would take to that process as I dont know what is in the middle, asbestos or ?? Another idea that was run past me was to soak the gasket in hot water to swell the contents up.
gasketstogo will have a final reply tomorrow about this exact gasket. Rings should be here later in the week or early next
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Well this is the biggest clue to the lock ups. Totally blocked on this side but not so bad on the other and is why I could pour coolant into the radiator and get it to run out of the drain tap easily. But this side was almost like clay as you can see in my hand. I dug around inside for a long time dragging out dirt and clay until I could not reach it with my fingers so out came the air blower and 100psi got things on the move.
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Looking down the water jackets that go to the head are now clean enough. Then the opening on the opposite side where the radiator support bracket attaches to was open and only a small amount of crap at that opening. Just some of the dirt that was dug out on the first side. Radiator outlet side clean again.
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Wow Cobbadog, what happened to It? Did they fill it up from puddle water in the paddock? Some of it is clearly rust and limescale but some of it looks like clay, you could grow potatoes in that! I guess that explains the overheating/seizing problem, I think I would be running some radiator cleaner through it once it`s operational.
Well done mate, a new set of rings and a mild hone and she will be good to go.
Bob
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It is o bviously been filled up with dam water at best. I guess that some of it has benn just dirt then been heated and packed in by vibration over many years. It does not look as if the tottly blocked side has ever been opened up but the radiator side has been cleared out and explains why I could pour water into the radiator and see it run freely out the drain tap. It was running along the radiator side to the back and across to the drain tap as this pathway was clear. All blockages were the opposite side to the radiator and across the front side behind where the fuel pump is. This area is restricted in sized because of the camshaft. But I have got it out and is reasonably good. I certainly will be running some cleaner through the system once back together but I may even get the guerny out and give it a blast as well.
The radiator bracket has some corrsion on it where the gasket is suppose to seal. I decided to clean it up and push some uneedit in there and it is curing overnight. Love these plastic metals. Pics of that tomorrow.
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Looks like mud wasps to me
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Definitely not mud wasps as they cant get in here when assembled, but they can cause some issues in other areas.
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I started repairing the radiator bracket yesterday by scrapping it all clean the used a centre punch to make lots of dots in the metal for the plastic metal to bond to. This morning I filed it back for a smooth finish. I made all new gaskets today as well ready for assembly. I will be able to fit the radiator bracket on as well as the other side cover onto the cylinder then I can put some caustic soda in the water jackets to start the clean up inside.
First pic is the centre punch marks, then the plastic metal cut off the length and ready now to knead it together, This is what it looks like after being pushed into the centre punch marks then after smoothing off.
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Today I fitted up the side plate and bottom radiator bracket. Then I filled the water jacket with washing soda to help clean out the final dirt and crap. While that was happening I got out my home made vacuum and cleaned up the bottom of the sump. First I drained the remaining oil from the sump then threw some diesel in the sump but it was disappearing so I kept throwing more in until I could see it there. It was then I could see that there is a mesh bolted to the cylinder but just above the bottom of the sump. So I brushed it with a stiff brush then drained that out. The mesh is now somewhat cleaner now but still had some rubbish sitting on top so I took my vacuum cleaner to it and now is good. This mesh is held in place with at least 3 1/4" BSW bolts and although I can just touch them I would not be able to undo them never mind putting them back in place so it will stay as it is.
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Hi Cobbadog, I guessed there was some sort of screen in there somewhere, my guess was it was at the bottom of the sump connected to the scavenger pump, very happy to be wrong.
How long are you going to leave the caustic in the cylinder block? Just be careful, if they have plugged any holes or voids with brass or bronze, caustic will eat it very quickly and will also eat the drain tap.
I too am a huge fan of epoxy metal fillers. The best I have ever seen was a product that was a mixture of epoxy resin and titanium dust, we used it in sawmills in areas of severe wear, it was almost indestructible.
When are your parts arriving, I`m looking forward to seeing this running again.
Bob
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Yes the screen is almost on the bottom and I could just get my hand in far enough to feel 3 bolts only. Did not bother looking any others as I cannot get to them to remove and properly clean the screen, I will try to get a pic of it tomorrow. The vacuum cleaner wondered what hit it with sump oil and crud comming up at it. It is a simple vacuum based on the venturi system, a flexible plastic tube with my air blower stuck inside and 100psi then pull the trigger. I guess I better clean it out tomorrow too.
I did n ot end up using caustic soda. Instead I used washing soda and it sat in there about 4 hours then I drained it. Some more dirt came out with the solution and It doesn't look too bad inside now. On another Forum I visit they advised not to use caustic as it is too corrosive, and it is but it does shift the crap and quick. Happy enough to leave it as it is now. Just want the rings to turn up and then gap and fit them.
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Coming along nicely.
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I never got near Ray today but the good news is that the new ring set arrived late today.
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This is the best shot I can get of the wire mesh in the sump that sits above the dual oil pumps. Started gaping the rings today.
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I can see how that would be very difficult to access without complete dismantling.
Good luck with the piston rings, how are you going to load up this engine to get the rings to bed in well?
Bob
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Yeah it looks like a crankshaft out to get to that wire mesh filter so it stays there. I started to gap the rings but I have 3 days of doctors appointments to deal with so wont be until the weekend now before I get back to it. As for loading it up I have nothing that will do that other than what I did for the little McDonald Super Imperial Diesel Crude Oil engine, a lump of hardwood and made smoke under the flywheels.
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Hi Cobbadog, good luck at the doctors. A good piece of Aussie hardwood and a very heavy weight ought to do it, should also polish up the flywheel too, try not to set the place on fire from the friction.
There is a guy down here in Tassy selling an unrestored Lister J 4 1/2 petrol engine for $1500, hasn`t been run for several years. I`d like to own it but restoration costs could easily be $1500 or more. I`m thinking $750 but some clown will probably pay him the money and then realize he has no idea how to get it running again or where to get the parts to do so. Sadly it will probably end up in landfill in a few years time.
Bob
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Thanks, the doctors is a usual thing, checking the diabetes to see if I have been a good boy, eye specialist again diabetes and glaucoma, n skin cancer clinic tomorrow paying for all those years working on earth moving equipment long before cabs were fitted in the full sun and no shirt. You get used to it all and is like just another day but a bit different.
Yeah I have some very seasoned hardwood here from our over 100 year old house. It is more like steel then timber, I think if I tried hard enough I could weld the bastard. When I did the McDonald I had some smoke coming off the timber, almost as much as coming out of the McDonald's exhaust. I did have fun do it though. So will do something similar again and make friends with the neighbours again. They should not be bothered they all burn timber fires in winter and we dont so we are even.
$1500 for the Lister J is very hopeful and wish him well for his wishful thinking. Some sellers dont realise the true cost of an engine. For that money I want to hear it running in front of me to value it to a realistic price. If not running it is only scrap value and walk away. Too many times I have seen and heard of buyers paying top dollars for crap scrap believing the seller has told the truth. Cant believe a friend of mine who ot us into this infectious hobby ran a service station, is a mechanic and a good one and also did NRMA road side break downs buys so much broken crap believing bthe sellers.
Old Time Engines in Qld has a lot of parts but since he bought out the Lister parts seller in NSW he has had to increase his prices and some are priced on availability not value, but that is business. He is not running a charity so buying parts, if available are dear.
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Hi Cobbadog, Diabetes is a bugger, one of my neighbors has it, he is a very fit, healthy 50 something who loves mountain biking. He has recently had several toes amputated, I`m very pleased to say that I saw him back riding his mountain bike yesterday.
I`m lucky with the melanoma issue, I spent the first fifty years of my life in the UK where the sun only shines for a few months a year, guess I`ve got a bit of catching up to do.
My Father in Law had glaucoma, diagnosed in his late forties, still driving in his seventies. Best expert in Australia is Dr. Ivan Goldberg in Macquarie St. Sydney.
I have a mig welder an AC/DC tig welder, oxy/acetylene equipment, stick welder and enough welding rods to rebuild the harbor bridge, I will happily load the whole lot on my ute and drive to NSW to watch you try to weld wood together! :laugh:
I messaged the guy with the J 4 1/2 he hasn`t come back to me yet, just another fool who thinks it`s valuable because it`s old, more than enough of these in museums so only of interest to vintage engine buffs like us.
Good luck with the medics,
Bob
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All finished with the quacks. Had a burn'm burn'm (really freezem freezem) session with the skin cancer bloke today. Feel like I've been on a BBQ spit right now. Got to go back as soon as we are back from our holiday in about 3 months. We are not sure how long we will be on the road this time, 6-8 weeks. I have been under a specialist for the eyes and the drops he gets me to use has dropped the pressure by a lot, back down to 21 n 20.
I feel confident that it will strike an arc! ::)
So tomorrow morning while it is still cool will get back to the gaping of the rings. Some fairly rude, crude and uncouth truckies picked up on that term gaping rings so best to leave that out of it.
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You keep track of that eye pressure. and do what the doc says! Its nothing to play with! My son was born with Glaucoma, has had 4 operations, just last month his right Eye was bothering him and had it checked, pressure was 50. He had emergency surgery and is still recovering his sight from that. Enjoy tbe holiday! Here we say vacation😊
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Poor bugga! I do everything asked of me so since it has come down by around 1/3, I am doing well.
Today got the rings gaped and fitted to the piston. Had a bit of fun cleaning the ring grooves, they looked really good but the oil groove because of the narrow ring being fitted previously was still holding some carbon. I got it all out in the end so I took the time to do the other 3 grooves as well. Next will be fitting the piston and begin the journey of assembly.
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Hi Cobbadog, glad it went well with the docs, sorry to hear about the crispy BBQ experience, hope it all heals before your road trip.
Hi 38ac, sorry to hear your son has glaucoma, I hope that his surgery was successful and he makes a swift recovery.
Well done Cobbadog on getting the rings sorted, looking forward to a video showing the beast running again.
Bob
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Well the bottom end is all back together this morning with piston in bore, big end done up and external covers back on with new gaskets, fuel pump in place as is the external oil tank. Will tell more and post some pics tomorro, I had to go out and have some fun this afternoon.
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Forgot I did not have a 4.5" ring compressor so I joined 2 hose clamps to do the job. Then had the fun Of getting the bottom end cap for the big end bearing in and on the bolts. Took ages to get one of the split pins through the hole but finally won that race. Fitted front and rear covers, oil tank and fuel pump.
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Cobba, Gentles
Some wood (or gas) to the fire! ;D ;D ;D
Hose clamps for a few rings. take a look at Amish engeniring: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8320.msg102639#msg102639
Cheers
VP
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God bless the Amish!
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This morning once I had done all the research on various insurances for one of the cars I made it outside. First is a picture of the copper gasket sealant I have used in the past and it works well. I coated the top of the piston with a smear of grease first then sprayed. After coating both sides of the copper gasket and the head I dropped it in place, boy these are heavy heads. I lubed everything in and around the rockers and push rods and I leave the exhaust facing down when not in use. Nest is a close up of the injector and the roller rockers, very high tech for its age. Finally, setting the gap at 0.008" cold as stated by the manual.
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Next is a nice easy job, setting the rocker gear to 0.008" cold as by the manual. Still cant get past these being roller rockers on a slow speed engine. Fan and top radiator hose connection fitted, fan belt on and adjusted. Fuel tank bracket on which doubles as a cover of the water jacket in the head. This is the side that had all the dirt in it. Blow the whistle, full time for the day.
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Put the fuel tank and filter on and bled the system then the radiator went on. This radiator had to replace the original honey comb one (in the shed) as it is way past repair. This one came from a Toyota Hilux and with some slight modification and a new mounting bracket I made up plus the steady half way down it works a treat. Note the modified radiator cap because it is a thermo syphon system not pressurised.
After some cranking with my bad shoulders I got some smoke, blue at first now black. It almost want to start up but I run out of power to keep cranking the starter motor as I call it. Just to see if it would get me over the line I tried some start ya bastard and again I ran out of steam.
So tomorrow it is time to belt the bastard up to the David Brown tractor and give it what for.
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Hi Cobbadog, looks like you have made great progress. Hooking up a tractor with a belt drive should get it running, you should have done that earlier rather than damage the shoulders.
The Hilux radiator should be fine but is probably far more cooling than is required, does the CD8 have a thermostat? You can always fit some baffles to reduce the air flow/effective cooling surface area.
Best of luck getting it running tomorrow, try not to resort to start ya bastard, engines have a bad habit of becoming addicted to it and won`t start without it.
Hoping for first smoke,
Bob
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Hi Bob,
Ray has had his first couple of smokes and black for some reason. The extra compression at the moment is what is holding me back as it puts a lot of stress on both stuffed shoulders. Before it was far easier and started after 2 swings on the handle. Yeah the start ya bastard is back on the shelf and once I get Lorry moved forward, batteries on charge over night, then have to align David and away Ray should go.
All being well Ray will be on video tomorrow, I hope. :o ::)
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Got the popcorn ready. Looking forward to seeing it go again.
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Start eating your popcorn.
Well it took a lot to get set up so the belt didn't come off and then it took a while to not just fire but keep running but he did it. This is the very beginning of the mosquito control for our little village, more to come.
https://youtu.be/nkefmulVdJQ
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Here Ray is running on the throttle set position on the rack/fuel pump. I guess this is for when he is running a generator, it is a small piece of metal that throws over and stops the rack from opening up to full position. He has now run for well over half a hour with no previous issues showing up. I have had him opened up to full throttle for a short time and more black smoke came out but I guess this is because the new rings have not bedded in yet.
https://youtu.be/hg2fGu8lR-A
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Here Ray is under load, well a little bit. This piece of over 100 years old hardwood sure smokes well. The first side had a nail in it and sparks came off that quite well so I turned it over and made smoke. I think I found a small issue but will investigate that later to confirm. I have had Ray on full throttle and he tossed more black smoke out but guess this is because the new rings are not bedded in yet. Happy he is starting off the starter motor/crank handle again. After his long run the heat was evenly spread around the cylinder and head. The radiator top tank was warm to hot and bottom warm only so the thermo syphyon is working. It is also amazing how much air that fan draws though the radiator and this is with out a shroud that was on the original radiator.
Bloody Happy as.
https://youtu.be/OqojstHw3To
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Well done Cobbadog, Ray is finally running again after all your efforts, I would have consumed a bucket of popcorn watching the videos, sadly I don`t have any so I settled for a glass of red wine which I raise in a toast to your perseverance and determination.
Congratulations mate.
Bob
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Thanks Bob for your kind thoughts and help during the restoration, if you can call it that.
Some that know mw well would suggest that I am 'stubbourn' rather than perseverance or determination which I got from Granny.
Ray the engine was named after my late Dad and I had the engine running in a fashion and he saw and heard not long before he passed. This model engine took him back to when he was a boy on a dairy farm having to start it up for the water for the dairy and market garden. I still remember the look in his eyes as he listened to it tick over. Love and miss you dearly Pa.
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Good job !
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Nicely done! Another one saved. Congrats!