Lister Engine Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: 38ac on November 14, 2022, 03:48:07 PM
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The 10HP Bamfords is running and ready to ship. On to the next one in line. Bought this 16/2 Lister as "rebuilt" but whoever worked in it sure didnt make my standards. Its coming all the way down and built up correctly. This engine will be for sale qhen done. PM if interested.
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Hi Casey, well done on getting the Bamford finished.
When you say the 16/2 has had work done to a poor standard could you please document and post what horrors you find. I note that the crankshaft looks too shiny for an engine of it`s age, has it been replaced? When I fitted a new Indian crank to my 6/1 I found that the end float was over spec even without any gaskets! I had to make shims to go between the main bushings and the housings.
Bob
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Bob, it got worse as I took it down!
Cylinders were bored to fit dry sleeves. After installation They bored the sleeves to size leaving no room for honing and slapped it together with the rough bores. the #2 side is .005 too large in the rough bore. The #1 side is to finished bore size at the top and .010" larger at the bottom. Zoom in to see how rough the bores are
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New valves slapped in without grinding the seats or lapping them
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#2 side rod and bearing, zoom in to see bearing metal filings everywhere.
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Number 1 side rod had NO bolt in the back side!
Not pictured is they didn't install the oil lines that feed the dipper trays. Fuel pumps both seized. It's a real mess but nothing insurmountable to fix.
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This is exactly how people with no scruples get away with dishonesty like that. Unless they meant that the starter motor was rebuilt, nothing else.I know I certainly would send off an email to the Seller and show him exactly what you have found. Too late for any money back deals probably but then doing what you are doing now and show everyone what that person's idea of 'rebuilt' is and list the name. There can be no come back at you for telling the truth. I know I would make everyone aware of how that seller describes his items and what it truly is like.
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Butch, Gentles
Remember I said that water (hot) manifold was upsidedown? Well, there is the answer!
You can ask about the remain parts, and seller can say price was that low because of missing parts, or you just can move on.
It hurts me too.
Cheers
VP
PS: And this is not a indian block, its a brit one!
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When I saw the quality of the welding work on the Bamford head I was truly amazed, the quality of work done on this engine just makes me angry. Spare parts cost just the same if you do a good job as if you do a bad job. If you don`t know how to do it properly don`t do it at all. Selling an engine with a big end bolt missing is criminal, someone could have been injured or even killed. I remember being in a Ford Fiesta doing 70 MPH when it threw a rod, a cigarette packet sized piece of the cylinder block pierced a hole in the front wing of the car!
I am in no doubt you will be able to fix all the problems and get this running as it should. Will you be able to get the sleeves out or are you going to have to bore/hone them again and fit over sized pistons. Cylinder sleeves come in different wall thicknesses, I hope they fitted the thinnest leaving you some meat to work with if you are going to have to replace them.
I`m with VP and Cobbadog on naming and shaming the person responsible for this act of vandalism.
Bob
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Bob, The plan, if I can get the parts is to bring the dry sleeves out to .5mm or .020" over. If pistons arr not available the only choice will be to remove the sleeves and start over.
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My biggest worry about this is that the person that bored the cylinders, after sleeving, may be the same guy that fitted the sleeves. Is there any reason to believe that the sleeves are a tight fit and will not have hot spots or even be loose? I think it would be safer to start again from scratch. For what it`s worth, Lister used to make oversized pistons in 10 thou increments up to +40 thou, but you already know this so I`m trying to teach my mother to suck eggs.
I suspect you know how to shrink a seized bearing by running a bead of weld on the inside. I have never tried it on a cylinder liner but in theory it should work just the same, might be worth a shot if they have fitted the largest liners available.
Bob
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Bob, I share that worry and plan to check the press fit. Luckily he used 1/8 wall sleeves and 5/32 are readily available thus I can repair if they are loose. The OEM piston inventory is all used up to my knowledge so India is the supply. Currently available is .5mm and 1mm oversized. It sure is easier to repair a worn engine than follow a bodger tgats for sure.
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The 0.010 inches larger at the bottom cylinder bore has me scratching my head. Perhaps a novice changed a dull cutter and forgot to adjust for it???
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Bruce, there are several proper ways to bore a cylinder and a few more ways that shouldn't be tried. Not sure how tvis was done. Hopefully the bores in the blocks aren't tapered also because that is very hard to correct when I'll only be taking out about .030"
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I look forward to your assessment as the project progresses.
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It certainly sounds like a challenge.
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I suspect there was wear in the bearings of the boring machine used, the deeper the bore the more pronounced the deviation would become, I really hope they didn`t use the same machine to do the bores for the new liners. The finish on the bores is terrible suggesting the machine was in poor condition.
Bob
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Or a back yard job by a beginner
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Exactly Bob, plus the further one extends the bar the more it flexes. Thats why you don't bore by advancing the bar. You extend tbe bar out far enough to preform the job, lock it and advance the work to it.
Yesterday was cleaning day. Luckily I have a hot power wash cabinet thus its not as tedious as it once was. Piles of cleaned parts and a clean crankcase.
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More problems, Grrrr
Sorry about poor picture but anyone see a problem with this sleeve installation. Boring these out for .5mm oversize pistins just went out the window.
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Finally some good news on this engine, hard seats were installed earlier in life. Just have to recut the seats with a 3 angle job, clean up the surfaces and set them aside. One down, one to go.
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Is that a gap line showing between liner and cylinder or just shadow from liner not flat and flush?
Can you use Rajkot parts for a replacement cylinder?
Glad you got a bonus on the valve seats!
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Nothing wrong with that sleeve.
Just run a big weld bead around it and knock it down with a hand die
grinder and you are go to go !
(Just kidding of course !)
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The sleeve was either installed low or has sunk with pressure from the head gasket. Hard to say for sure which but it won't hold a head gasket very long thats for certain. Who ever butchered this engine didn't leave a step in the bottom of the cylinder to stop the sleeve,, but on the other one he did.
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If the cylinder liners are tight in the block then why not skim the tops off the cylinder block to correct the problem, then either:
Use more bumping clearance shims to compensate for the material removed, or
Remove a corresponding amount from the tops of the pistons.
If your still interested I have some BACo (British Alumium Company) pistons available in +020 and +060 oversizes that I would be prepared to sell.
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Hi Butch, That liner job is going to have to be redone, it could drop into the sump causing god knows how much damage. If those are 1/8" liners then at 5/32" you are only going to have about 30 thou to bore out. That would allow for a 15 thou shoulder near the bottom to stop the liner dropping. You are probably going to have to turn a corresponding shoulder on the bottom of the liner, so the last 1/4" is 1/8" wall thickness. Failing that, some Indian Listeroids have wet liners, you might be able to use one of them.
Finally a bit of good news with the valve seats, strange how some of the work done to this Lister is top quality and some so poor. Time to blame the apprentice?
Bob
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Out with the garbage so corrections can begin. Welded a few beads in the sleeves to shrink them and knocked them out with a bar.
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Well done getting that out, I`ve shrunk a lot of seized bearing that way, never tried it with a cylinder liner. Good to know it works.
What does the machining work on the cylinder block look like, have they left you enough meat to work with?
Bob
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Going back together while waiting on sleeves. Anyone who has messed with twins knows its real easy to ding the crank shaft journals when wiggling it back in the block. Whoever was in this engine before must have stood back a threw it in! Major dings had to be addressed.
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There are some 'butchers' about the place, sounds like you found the winner of them all.
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Once again this engine has bit me. Because it has a newer. crank I am guessing that it suffered a broken one at some point which is common with the Amish users. There is an issue with the main bearing alignment that frankly I have not sfigured out how it could be?? Started out with the crank shaft going into a bind when the outside bearing caps were snugged up. Carefully checking showed the alignment of the outer caps is OK. The Center main bearing checked out to be proper diameter BUT is too low, binding the crank when every thing is torqued up. How can that be other than some change in the block? possibly due to the crankshaft breakage? Anyway since I (foolishly) let somebody talk me out of my horizontal boring mill I am building a bar to bore the center main into alignment with the outer mains. Pics on that later. Shown is checking for a bent crank with simple tools, two wood blocks, two steel V blocks and an indicator.
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What an unusual problem, I would expect the cast iron block to crack rather than deform. Perhaps it was manufactured wrongly in the first place, which would explain why the original crank failed.
I am guessing you are going to have to skim the mating face of the main bearing cap first, then fit it and bore the center journal otherwise you will end up with an elliptical bore.
I am looking forward to seeing the custom boring bar you are making, it`s going to need to be strong and long. How much material are you going to have to remove?
Bob
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Once you get all 3 main bearings line bored and aligned your problem may go away. Have you also had time to check for a bent con rod?
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At this point we assume nothing with this engine!
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How can that be ?
What did the old bearings look like ?
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The boring job
Found a length of 1 11/16" 1144 shafting in the rack to build the boring bar. Since somebody borrowed my 1/4 square broach and didnt bring it back I went with a 3/8" round hole a d used an old 3/8 drill bit to make the cutter. Two bushing were made up for a good fit inside the outside main bearings and a nice slip fit on the bar. To set the cutter I laid a straight edge across the bushings, The cutter is .001 proud over the straight edge. Took 7 hours to make all this, then 2 minutes to bore the center main shells using a slow drill for power. The center main web in this engine is twisted a bit, guessing from when the crank broke. Luckily Lister stayed with a thick babbit bearing which left plenty to straighten out the mess. Next guy might scratch his head but he will figure it out,,, if hes any good. Last pic is the shaft and cutter next to the center main ready to work, my phone is taking lousy pics, sorry.
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Before boring the center main I also had to straighten out out the #1 side outside main bearing casting. I used the 2" ground shaft that I use to balance flywheels as a mandrel. Shimmed the housing tight by wrapping some shim stock around the shaft. Drove it with a lathe dog. When cutting I also had a center in the tailstock holding the shaft.
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Very impressive work, Butch. I have recently enjoyed several boring bar and related tool fabrication videos by an Aussie machinist on youtube. Its a fascinating process that takes a lot of knowledge and skill.
How did you make the drive connection to the slow speed drill motor?
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Well done Butch, an impressive solution to a tricky problem. I doubt you will ever need to use that boring bar again but it`s a nice tool to keep just in case, so don`t lend it to anyone, they may not bring it back.
Bob
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Bruce, I drilled and tapped the bar for a 1/2-13 cap screw and drove the bar with a socket and adapter in my Dewalt 18V drill.
A man walked in the shop just as I was cleaning up the block and asked if for sale and how much, gave him a price and its sold. Guess I'll have to work harder at getting it done now
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Bob, I typically don't lend tools, or anything else. As I was looking for the broach I remembered loaning it, called the guy but he claimed to have never borrowed it. I didn't argue with him but ah the fun I will have telling him off the next time he needs something!
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Brilliantly simple boring bar drive, Butch. My favorite kind of solution.
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I've been watching some videos from CEE an engineering firm specialising in boring out worn bushes etc in heavy earth moving stuff. when he sets up his boring bar he uses a pair of cones that centralise the boring bar rod as he tack welds the brackets to the part/s being bored.
Like every good tradesman, both you and he make it look and sound easy. Well done.
I had an episode recently about a tool that went missing. I thought I had lent it to the guy across the road so I politely asked him if he had it and he said no but he did have a sledge hammer the same so I borrowed it. The more I looked at it the more I thought this is mine and then sometimes said no it isn't. I took it straight back as soon as I had finished with it and thanked him. 4 days later I stubbed my toe on my one. I put it back in a place that I never put it. Ageing can be a bugga.
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I hate loaning tools out and after never getting a couple back I started something new. Top drawer of my tool box is a stack of index cards. When I loan a tool, in front of the guy I fill out a card, put his name , date, the tool and have him sign it. Never had a problem since...hate to do that to friends but explain I'm getting old and forget where one of my tools went and they laugh and understand.
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I've been watching some videos from CEE
I have been watching him for a couple of years now as well. A very interesting channel. He does some big work and is a master at welding. I am guessing a lot of his customers are in the mining industry.
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Definitely mining industry.
I sometimes have to borrow a tool or a piece of equipment and it is not something I am comfortable with at all. There is one mate I go to as he has these things like a milling machine or a large honer for the engines etc. With no exception when I borrow the tool I go back home, use it, clean it and in some cases repair it then return it with in a couple of days, if not the same day. He cant believe that I do this and I always say it is how I was raised and it is the right thing to do. So when you need it, it will be clean and ready to go. The large engine hone I borrowed I wore the stones out. When I returned the honer I told him that new stones have been ordered and are being sent to him at his address. By doing this I know I dont have any issues even though I dont like doing it, but I can borrow his tools when needed.
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Hi Guys, I have a simple rule: my tools don`t leave my property, if you need to use them you are welcome but you need to bring the job to the tools! A six pack of beer would be much appreciated, I tend to get very thirsty watching other people work! :laugh:
Bob
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Nothing goes easy with this engine. installed the cam and lifters, no biggie right? Not on this one. After everything was in place the governor weights were hitting the end lifter bushing, grrrr :( Had to make a custom shim for the far end to push the cam away from the bushing. Next bad news was the sleeves. Ordinarily I use 1/8 wall sleeves which are a stock item at around $100 each. Since the guy before me screwed up the blocks I had to go with 5/32 sleeves which are custom order and $352 each AND 10 week wait.
Just a note to anyone who works on a twin and takes it all the way down. The oil manifold and line that line that runs up to the pump are installed FIRST, or you will be disassembling to get it installed. Just had a phone call last week, "hey, how do you get the oil line in the block and tighten the nut??? ??? ??? Answer, remove the crankshaft, camshaft, then install the line.
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Hi Butch, a bit of a shock to hear the price of the sleeves. This guy might be able to help, don`t know if he would ship to the USA. https://www.oldtimerengines.com.au/lister-engine-parts/lister-cs/piston-rings-and-con-rod/repair-sleeve-liner-suit-4-5-bore
Bob
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Old timer engines will indeed ship to the USA. Shipping may be a bit high depending on your order.
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I have not done any dealings with old timer engines but I know a lot of people who have and find him very helpful. He recently bought all the stock of another retiring Lister parts seller from the New England district of NSW.
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Hi Cobbagog, I have had quite a lot of dealings with Rob at Old Timer Engines. His web site is quite comprehensive and has recently expanded to display all the new stock he has bought. He accepts Paypal and usually dispatches ordered items within one day. He is very knowledgeable and can very often find bits for vintage engines he does not have in stock.
Bob
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Update, project is on hold while awaiting sleeves. Will post pics of that process after they arrive.
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Sorry to hear the project is on hold, I have very much enjoyed this thread so far. I hope the sleeves come soon.
Bob
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FINALLY, back on the 16/2 after waiting 4 months for parts. Been around here so long it's like a permanent fixture. Should go back together pretty fast now.
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Looks like new head studs too. Sometimes parts are the stumbling block. I am tracking down a single Girling brake shoe return spring for my Liner Roughrider with the SR2 Lister in it. Im waiting fro a mate to come back from the National Rally so I can visit him, get my beavertail truck passed again for Club rego and he says he has one of the springs I need. Hope he is right.
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Yes I had to regress to India for the cylinders after 2 sleeve companies failed to deliver custom size sleeves for the OEM cylinder blocks. Had a rather large stock order take 5 months to arrive also. Glad I don't have to have the shop income in order to eat!! To the plus side India has thoroughly modernized the aluminum CS type pistons with an up to date ring package and skirt. I'm an anxious to get some out working. They are also lighter which will make respectable balance much easier to achieve.
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As much as India and the manufacturing companies of many things gets a ribbing from most people I have over the years purchased some BSW combination spanners, ring spanners and a good selection of sockets. All of these have been given a good workout on many of our toys as many are British. I have no issues with the quality. A friend visits India every 2nd year and does a tour of many large Companies doing talks to the Staff about many things they do and how to improve. He claims the factories he visits are all spotless and very modern and equipment is the latest on the market.
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Yes, people tend to throw all of India in one bag. Same as everywhere else manufacturing quality varies. Firms in India are producing cast and machined parts for most all of the major engine manufacturers. However what they are not so good at is very bad as we Listeroid types know. The last two new Listeroids I have out through the shop were absolute travisties. Neither woukd have run for an hour without being destroyed.
All that being said If I had a reasonable and reliable source for what I ourchase in India I would buy it elsewhere due to my religious beliefs and what is happening to like thinkers there. I just had 50 sets of custom engine bearing quoted. USA manufactured, $750 per set. India $50. Wasn't a difficult decision.
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16/2 is finally done and test run completed. It's going to power a line shaft in an Amish woodworking shop.
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Running a line shaft for an Amish wood shop- What a lovely application for your 16/2 restoration, Butch.
Lucky woodshop owner!