Lister Engine Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: 38ac on November 14, 2022, 03:48:07 PM

Title: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: 38ac on November 14, 2022, 03:48:07 PM
The 10HP Bamfords is running and ready to ship. On to the next one in line. Bought this 16/2 Lister  as "rebuilt" but whoever worked in it sure didnt make my standards. Its coming all the way down and built up correctly. This engine will be for sale qhen done. PM if interested.
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: ajaffa1 on November 14, 2022, 09:09:59 PM
Hi Casey, well done on getting the Bamford finished.
When you say the 16/2 has had work done to a poor standard could you please document and post what horrors you find. I note that the crankshaft looks too shiny for an engine of it`s age, has it been replaced? When I fitted a new Indian crank to my 6/1 I found that the end float was over spec even without any gaskets! I had to make shims to go between the main bushings and the housings.

Bob
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: 38ac on November 14, 2022, 10:41:19 PM
Bob, it got worse as I took it down!
Cylinders were bored to fit dry sleeves. After installation They bored the sleeves to size leaving no room for honing and slapped it together with the rough bores. the #2 side is .005 too large in the rough bore. The #1 side is to finished bore size at the top and .010" larger at the bottom. Zoom in to see how rough the bores are
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: 38ac on November 14, 2022, 10:43:28 PM
New valves slapped in without grinding the seats or lapping them
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: 38ac on November 14, 2022, 10:45:54 PM
#2 side rod and bearing, zoom in to see bearing metal filings everywhere.
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: 38ac on November 14, 2022, 10:49:20 PM
Number 1 side rod had NO bolt in the back side!
Not pictured is they didn't install the oil lines that feed the dipper trays. Fuel pumps both seized. It's a real mess but nothing insurmountable to fix.
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: cobbadog on November 15, 2022, 05:17:02 AM
This is exactly how people with no scruples get away with dishonesty like that. Unless they meant that the starter motor was rebuilt, nothing else.I know I certainly would send off an email to the Seller and show him exactly what you have found. Too late for any money back deals probably but then doing what you are doing now and show everyone what that person's idea of 'rebuilt' is and list the name. There can be no come back at you for telling the truth. I know I would make everyone aware of how that seller describes his items and what it truly is like.
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister - A CLUE ALREADY GIVEN
Post by: sirpedrosa on November 15, 2022, 03:22:03 PM
Butch, Gentles

Remember I said that water (hot) manifold was upsidedown? Well, there is the answer!

You can ask about the remain parts, and seller can say price was that low because of missing parts, or you just can move on.

It hurts me too.

Cheers
VP

PS: And this is not a indian block, its a brit one!
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: ajaffa1 on November 15, 2022, 08:37:08 PM
When I saw the quality of the welding work on the Bamford head I was truly amazed, the quality of work done on this engine just makes me angry. Spare parts cost just the same if you do a good job as if you do a bad job. If you don`t know how to do it properly don`t do it at all. Selling an engine with a big end bolt missing is criminal, someone could have been injured or even killed. I remember being in a Ford Fiesta doing 70 MPH when it threw a rod, a cigarette packet sized piece of the cylinder block pierced a hole in the front wing of the car!
I am in no doubt you will be able to fix all the problems and get this running as it should. Will you be able to get the sleeves out or are you going to have to bore/hone them again and fit over sized pistons. Cylinder sleeves come in different wall thicknesses, I hope they fitted the thinnest leaving you some meat to work with if you are going to have to replace them.
I`m with VP and Cobbadog on naming and shaming the person responsible for this act of vandalism.

Bob
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: 38ac on November 16, 2022, 12:13:24 AM
Bob, The plan, if I can get the parts is to bring the dry sleeves out to .5mm or .020" over. If pistons arr not available the only choice will be to remove the sleeves and start over.
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: ajaffa1 on November 16, 2022, 07:20:55 AM
My biggest worry about this is that the person that bored the cylinders, after sleeving, may be the same guy that fitted the sleeves. Is there any reason to believe that the sleeves are a tight fit and will not have hot spots or even be loose? I think it would be safer to start again from scratch. For what it`s worth, Lister used to make oversized pistons in 10 thou increments up to +40 thou, but you already know this so I`m trying to teach my mother to suck eggs.
I suspect you know how to shrink a seized bearing by running a bead of weld on the inside. I have never tried it on a cylinder liner but in theory it should work just the same, might be worth a shot if they have fitted the largest liners available.

Bob
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: 38ac on November 16, 2022, 11:38:55 AM
Bob, I share that worry and plan to check the press fit. Luckily he used 1/8 wall sleeves and 5/32 are readily available thus I can repair if they are loose. The OEM piston inventory is all used up to my knowledge so India is the supply. Currently available is .5mm and 1mm oversized. It sure is easier to repair a worn engine than follow a bodger tgats for sure.
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: BruceM on November 17, 2022, 12:45:07 AM
The 0.010 inches larger at the bottom cylinder bore has me scratching my head.  Perhaps a novice changed a dull cutter and forgot to adjust for it??? 





Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: 38ac on November 17, 2022, 01:00:46 AM
Bruce, there are several proper ways to bore a cylinder and a few more ways that shouldn't be tried. Not sure how tvis was done. Hopefully the bores in the blocks aren't tapered also because that is very hard to correct when I'll only be taking out about .030"
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: BruceM on November 17, 2022, 01:23:03 AM
I look forward to your assessment as the project progresses. 

Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: cobbadog on November 17, 2022, 04:54:26 AM
It certainly sounds like a challenge.
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: ajaffa1 on November 17, 2022, 06:46:39 AM
I suspect there was wear in the bearings of the boring machine used, the deeper the bore the more pronounced the deviation would become, I really hope they didn`t use the same machine to do the bores for the new liners. The finish on the bores is terrible suggesting the machine was in poor condition.

Bob
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: cobbadog on November 17, 2022, 09:59:50 AM
Or a back yard job by a beginner
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: 38ac on November 17, 2022, 02:51:59 PM
Exactly Bob, plus the further one extends the bar the more it flexes. Thats why you don't bore by advancing the bar. You extend tbe bar out far enough to preform the job, lock it and advance the work to it.

Yesterday was cleaning day. Luckily I have a hot  power wash cabinet thus its not as tedious as it once was. Piles of cleaned parts and a clean crankcase.
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: 38ac on November 17, 2022, 03:00:31 PM
More problems, Grrrr
Sorry about poor picture but anyone see a problem with this sleeve installation. Boring these out for .5mm oversize pistins just went out the window.
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: 38ac on November 17, 2022, 03:18:02 PM
Finally some good news on this engine, hard seats were installed earlier in life. Just have to recut the seats with a 3 angle job, clean up the surfaces and set them aside. One down, one to go.

Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: BruceM on November 17, 2022, 03:30:44 PM
Is that a gap line showing between liner and cylinder or just shadow from liner not flat and flush? 

Can you use Rajkot parts for a replacement cylinder?

Glad you got a bonus on the valve seats!
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: 32 coupe on November 17, 2022, 04:55:05 PM
Nothing wrong with that sleeve.
Just run a big weld bead around it and knock it down with a hand die
grinder and you are go to go !

(Just kidding of course !)
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: 38ac on November 17, 2022, 06:27:11 PM
The sleeve was either installed low or has sunk with pressure from the head gasket. Hard to say for sure which but it won't hold a head gasket very long thats for certain. Who ever butchered this engine didn't leave a step in the bottom of the cylinder to stop the sleeve,, but on the other one he did.
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: listard-jp2 on November 17, 2022, 06:32:13 PM
If the cylinder liners are tight in the block then why not skim the tops off the cylinder block to correct the problem, then either:

Use more bumping clearance shims to compensate for the material removed, or

Remove a corresponding amount from the tops of the pistons.

If your still interested I have some BACo (British Alumium Company) pistons available in +020 and +060 oversizes that I would be prepared to sell.
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: ajaffa1 on November 17, 2022, 08:51:04 PM
Hi Butch, That liner job is going to have to be redone, it could drop into the sump causing god knows how much damage. If those are 1/8" liners then at 5/32" you are only going to have about 30 thou to bore out. That would allow for a 15 thou shoulder near the bottom to stop the liner dropping. You are probably going to have to turn a corresponding shoulder on the bottom of the liner, so the last 1/4" is 1/8" wall thickness. Failing that, some Indian Listeroids have wet liners, you might be able to use one of them.

Finally a bit of good news with the valve seats, strange how some of the work done to this Lister is top quality and some so poor. Time to blame the apprentice?

Bob
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: 38ac on November 22, 2022, 02:16:28 PM
Out with the garbage so corrections can begin. Welded a few beads in the sleeves to shrink them and knocked them out with a bar.
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: ajaffa1 on November 22, 2022, 07:54:02 PM
Well done getting that out, I`ve shrunk a lot of seized bearing that way, never tried it with a cylinder liner. Good to know it works.
What does the machining work on the cylinder block look like, have they left you enough meat to work with?

Bob
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: 38ac on November 24, 2022, 04:09:48 PM
Going back together while waiting on sleeves. Anyone who has messed with twins knows its real easy to ding the crank shaft journals when wiggling it back in the block. Whoever was in this engine before must have stood back a threw it in! Major dings had to be addressed.
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: cobbadog on November 25, 2022, 04:52:23 AM
There are some 'butchers' about the place, sounds like you found the winner of them all.
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: 38ac on November 29, 2022, 11:28:09 AM
Once again this engine has bit me. Because it has a newer. crank I am guessing that it suffered a broken one at some point which is common with the Amish users. There is an issue with the main bearing alignment that frankly I have not sfigured out how it could be?? Started out with the crank shaft going into a bind when the outside bearing caps were snugged up. Carefully checking showed the alignment of the outer caps is OK. The Center main bearing checked out to be proper diameter BUT is too low, binding the crank when every thing is torqued up. How can that be other than some change in the block? possibly due to the crankshaft breakage? Anyway since I (foolishly) let somebody talk me out of my horizontal boring mill I am building a bar to bore the center main into alignment with the outer mains. Pics on that later. Shown is checking for a bent crank with simple tools, two wood blocks, two steel V blocks and an indicator.
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: ajaffa1 on November 29, 2022, 07:34:17 PM
What an unusual problem, I would expect the cast iron block to crack rather than deform. Perhaps it was manufactured wrongly in the first place, which would explain why the original crank failed.
I am guessing you are going to have to skim the mating face of the main bearing cap first, then fit it and bore the center journal otherwise you will end up with an elliptical bore.
I am looking forward to seeing the custom boring bar you are making, it`s going to need to be strong and long. How much material are you going to have to remove?

Bob
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: cobbadog on November 29, 2022, 09:33:09 PM
Once you get all 3 main bearings line bored and aligned your problem may go away. Have you also had time to check for a bent con rod?
Title: Re: Next! 16/2 Lister
Post by: 38ac on November 30, 2022, 12:59:44 AM
At this point we assume nothing with this engine!