Lister Engine Forum
Slow Speed Diesel Engines => Other Slow Speed Diesels => Topic started by: sirpedrosa on August 01, 2022, 08:13:47 PM
-
Gentles, distinguished forum members
As promised, I now start the topic about the Deutz MAH 914.
But first things first, the Hilux water pump seized a ball bearing, and so it took the opportunity to change the timing belt as well.
The pallet with the Deutz offset measurements is ready for tomorrow to start lifting it.
Lets see how it goes.
Gentles, please fingers cross.
A couple of pics to joy.
Cheers
VP
PS: this thread came from this one: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=9121.msg109521#msg109521
-
Nice little donk, look forward to pictures of it.
-
Gentles
Here we go... left home monday evening to village. Tuesday melt the fat, the shovel is not easy to maneuver (especially after 3:30), but could get all space clean... I mean clean with archaeology engineering, as you can see further.
I'll give you a set of 35 pics. There is more but the essencial to joy.
Forgive me just to not have a essencial vid of the extraction of the engine from its shed to the ute;
But younger son was helping, and He was so excited with the operation that he forgot to make the vid... saved by the bell the last pic with Backhoe loader man and owner (one of the girls).
Backhoe loader puted arm from upside down into shed and hooked the harness that I made to toke it out.
Pics are titled by order, please be patient...
1 - Cutting Blackberry bushes - AGAIN...
2 - Starting archaeology... with shovel! 3 HOURS SHOVELING!
3 - First find: exhaust pot and an old oil can. And 3 old piston rings.
4 - Ha, Ha.... the ignition key!
5 - The archaeology pile of dirt.
6 - One fire salamander...returned to the wild (Im very conservative of any animal kind).
Cheers.
VP
PS: The vid of water in sump is displayed in FB, among some pics, and DEUTZ Forum will have a few pics with link to here.
-
1 - Another fire salamander...
2 - Half way is done... (the bottom of engine concrete stand already visible)
3 - The exhaust pipe is mine, only mine!
4 - last shovel of rubble... is it?
5 - Laid to the pile of rubble.
6 - Now what's next? Got torch and ATFCetone... hummm!
-
1 - HUau, 1st nut off...
2 - Ok, a break to confirm originality. Label with cast iron!
3 - Afternoon (and after dinner is twice sacrifice, but it must be done. Look at the shirt!). Only could save half of the fuel tank... but banjos are there. Do you get me?
4 - Surprise, surprise... engine has a mold of concrete around the sump. Let's go to primary and get masonry tools... heavy mallet and spick to break it free. (there is the answer why it still here! and not stolen... to scrap).
5 - The last one (nut) had to make his point to be the SOB. Pipe wrench is always the solution to those are stubborn!
6 - Now the SOB is out out of his bed... some pieces of rubble under sump to confirm it stays as it should, to extrat.
-
1 to 5 - detail pics of the german beast.
6 - Me, one of the sisters, and the loader man after putting it on the Hilux.
-
1 - The grave of an engine... Who knows?
2 - All stuff and tools on board to the road...
3 - After 2h (170km) arriving at the stationary engine clinic!
4 - Let's see the how is the inside body, on open the crankcase door? Last nut... Hummm oil and water!!!!! STOP, STOP! Open the sump drain bolt!
5 - About 1/2 dozen liter of water inside! (SEE VID AT FB (STATIONARY ENGINE ENTHUSIASTS); https://www.facebook.com/100001713712882/videos/pcb.5779948948703339/993367731335776 (https://www.facebook.com/100001713712882/videos/pcb.5779948948703339/993367731335776)
6 - the inside has a good look... Id like to see the same outside..... But time and weather is ruthless!
-
1 - Crank and rod looks ok... because oil was above water.
2 - Injector clip is out... but injector body is stuck.
3 - Pulley off;
4 - Crank boss off;
5 - Fuel filter assembly off;
6 - Hopper lid to tank colling off.
-
Well done VP, you have been very busy. Looks like the makings of a very good engine, You may need to buy it a new fuel filter!
Bob
-
Hi Bob, Gentles
Only a fuel filter? Im afraid of the injection circuit; pump and injector.
Two valves for shure.
Hope not to send it to scrap.
Cheers
VP
-
Nicely done! Looks like the prize at the end was well worth the effort. Looking forward to seeing if you can bring it back to life.
-
Hi VP, I would not be too worried about the fuel pump and injector, the rust will only be on the outside. The internals may be seized up with evaporated diesel but should be OK. strip them from the engine and soak them in a mixture of diesel and Automatic transmission fluid for as long as you can, if you can heat the solution even better. Don`t heat them on the kitchen stove, you will get in trouble and probably burn your house down. Try to find a small gas/electric stove or use the barbecue.
Valves should not be a problem, there are sure to be equivalent valves used in more modern engines. How do the valve guides look? You can always ream them out and use a slightly larger valve stem, not ideal but ok if it is only going to be a working display model.
Very jealous of your find, nothing like that in Tasmania.
Bob
-
Well done on the recovery og this special little engine. You may be surprised at how little it will need to run again. As stated, what it looks like on the outside may be bad but inside still good. Thanks for the pictures.
-
Gentles,
Another day fighting stress (I mean wrenches and hamer).
Pics by order:
1 - Deutz won a new tool... a braker bar. ;D ;D ;D
2 - Engine choose: Nut or stud? either! ;D ;D
3 - Doesnt mater... head is off
4 - Push rods are off;
5 - Piston crown looks great, genuine part, and dated 9/86;
6 - Liner looks great
-
Another half dozen:
1 - Rocker assembly with improvised (on the fly) flat wrench tail;
2 - tail detail... ;D ;D
3 - Rocker assembly off;
4 - Exhaust valve circlip (exhaust valve has a greaser, so wasn't stuck);
5 - All bits recoverd;
6 - Comparing Deutz valve with Lister valve;
-
1 - Intake valve spring, collets and spring carrier;
2 - Head is almost empty. ;D ;D
-
Nice work VP, everything looks to be in good condition and just needs cleaning. Looks like one of the pushrods is bent, probably from badly adjusted tappet clearance. Be careful when straightening it, some push rods are solid others are steel tubes with toughened inserts in each end, very easy to crush the tubular variety when straightening!
Keep up the good work and great photos.
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
Clean and derust! Ill save as much as I can. Same history I said about the 12/2.
Think that bent pushrod was made by someone that tries to turn it over - full turn - after intake valve were stuck. This ones are steel tubes and thin!
And yes, Im back from downstairs (nothing like the evening to give me focus). And yes here we go with more good pics.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
Here we go... again!
Remember that hydraulic press I made? Oh yes, gave it a dust clean tonight. Take a good look.
The first bang gave me a chill in the spine, thinking about what had brake. If the press or the valve. After all was just the valve going down.
Pics by order:
1 - Begin with 3 12mm nuts to catch momentum, just in case...
2 - After 2 bangs needed to take a nut out;
3 - After a few squeaks and some drops of wd40, and rests only one nut;
4 - And the brass nugget made it flat to the guide;
5 - A good travel down!
6 - Now a brass nut to go down with stem;
-
A few more...
1 - Now a 8mm bolt after brass nut, and it came off.
2 - Not as bad as anticipated;
3 - Head is getting better.
PS: ANYONE CAN TELL ME IF I PRESS DOWN THE PRE CHAMBER IT PUSHES ALSO THE INJECTOR OUT?
-
Hi VP, I have no idea how that pre-combustion chamber is held in place. It might well be that you could use it to press out the injector but there is a chance that it has a thread on it and is screwed in place. Feel free to give it a sharp tap with a copper faced hammer and see what happens. I would not be putting it in the press.
I would be refitting the valves and putting the cylinder head back on. Put about 10mm of oil in the cylinder and rock the engine into compression, hopefully the hydraulic pressure will blow the stuck injector out of it`s housing.
Bob
-
It can only be a guess to say yes push down on the pre-combustion chamber to push the injector out but I would also want to make an adaptor o fit under the injector so that a small amount of lift could be applied as some pressure on the pre-combustion chamber. Again I woul make an adaptor that would fit nicely around the chamber but not touch the raised section.
Lots of pre-soaking and maybe some or a lot of heat to assist in it's removal.
-
Bob, Cobba, Gentles
Thanks for your tips, always related to the topic.
As far as my research got, I think prechamber is hold in by injector nozzle cap nut, with copper washers among there.
Let see some pics about (Still need shop manual);
1 - The injector body (pic from net, off course, mine is worst);
2 - The fuse holder and nut;
3 - The prechamber on place;
Now lets see: In this case fire holes are opposite fuse hole, therefore...the right pre chamber will be...
4 - this one... is it? As you can see there is a hole to the fuse in front of fire holes;
5 - Its the same prechamber, but it has another fuse hole behind fire holes (and missed the dowel to align fuse hole);
6 - Diferent view of prechamber.
-
Now we can compare another model to see difference.
I can see is the outer diameter (thinner than mine) and length of pre chamber.
Thoughts are welcome.
Cheers
VP
-
I`m with Cobbadog, lots of soaking, maybe a little heat. Only apply pressure to the outside edges of the chamber (have a look in your box of sockets, one of them might be the perfect size).
Go easy with the press, good luck.
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
Thanks, again for your tips.
Let the head under pressure at press with that right socket, but nothing moved along the day.
Made a ride with #1 (see other thread) and at evening give a visit to the german iron. Governor linkage came off, and fuel pump too!
All to much rusted! Lets see how things will get after clean.
A few pics to joy.
Cheers
VP
-
if your injector is the same style as in reply 23 then pressing it out from that side appears to be the way to go. Keep soaking and a small amount of pressure and maybe introduce some heat. Even heating and spraying with WD40 to get it to draw in deep and quicker. If still no joy then more heat is how I would aproach it
-
Cobba, Gentles
The injector is that you can see at reply 22 (mine more rusted, as you can see at 18).
I found there is a notch at injector hole - under feed thread - thats goes all way down (did you notice that prechamber notch?) to set both prechamber and injector.
Its well soaked witd ATFCetone, and the metric 23 socket is the right measure to put under the press.
Wilst that am amusing with other bits.
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, if all else fails you can dismantle the fuel injector where it is, remove the inlet nipple, then unscrew the injector body from the stuck injector nozzle. Remove the internal working parts inside the injector nozzle and place in a jam jar full of diesel.
I don`t know what thread there would be in the injector nozzle but it is probably BSP, NPT or Metric fine, if you can find a piece of suitably threaded rod you can probably pull it out from above using a large washer and nut.
Bob
-
Gentles
Mechanic job without the book is a good recipe to disaster.
Neither taking all care could avoid it (for my point of knowledge).
The injection pump was going too well on stripping... just, but just last thing was the plunger and plunger guide to come off.
The plunger was very stuck, and put it under the press... and puted force inside the hole instead at the hedge. IT BROKE!
Some pics from my very sad day!
Cheers
VP
PS: Damn stupidity!
-
Hi VP, a sad day indeed. However, if the injector element was that badly stuck that you had to put it in the press the chances are it was already damaged beyond repair. The slightest wear or corrosion in an injector element makes them unusable.
I hope you can find a replacement.
Bob
-
OOPS big time. Sorry that this has happened after all your very hard work in collecting it and stripping it to this point. Do you think you will be able to get another one?
-
Bob, Cobba, Gentles
It had the tip corroded - but only saw it could be saved (dont want a Ferrari) after break it.
Was made it carefully and I ended to put the wrong roll pin punch, IN THE WRONG PLACE.
I can source another one here: https://www.historische-ersatzteile.de/pumpen-mah-mih-motoren (https://www.historische-ersatzteile.de/pumpen-mah-mih-motoren)
But its expensive anyway, and I hate to breke things.
Cheers
VP
-
Don`t feel too bad about making a mistake. The only person that has never made a mistake has never made anything at all! Very glad to see you can buy a replacement element for around 90 Euros plus delivery. I will happily give 25 Euros towards the replacement, perhaps some others will do the same.
Keep smiling
Bob
-
Bob
I appreciate you cheers me but, its not the value... it's the stupidity I had make! thats the point.
Now I'm making a 60mm ring spaner to withdraw the flyes.
I got to strip it to make the replacement inventory and source parts.
Cheers
VP
-
Try not to be hard on yourself. We have all made mistakes and by doing so we learn by them. In time we hope to see some more progress as it happens. Stay calm and continue with the great work you are doing.
-
Gentles
A few more pics os the disassembly of the german.
(Damn, that plunger still knocking my head... and in my hart!)
It is in good shape inside - at first glance.
Big end crank need to be polished.
Babbit looks ok, just some wearing, and it has a hole at place of oil from pump channel.
Small end I think will need new bushing.
Piston has 2 rings stuck.
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, that all looks good, I`m a little bit surprised by the hole in the big end bearing shell. It looks like a manufacturing fault, very unusual in German made machinery. Everything else looks ok, the stuck piston rings are probably due to it having sat idle for so long, soak them and they should free up.
Is the little end bearing brass/bronze or white metal? White metal is no problem, brass/bronze sometimes require reaming to size after fitting, not something you can do at home without specialist equipment.
Stop worrying about the injector pump! :)
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
From my point of view its not a manufacturing fault, but if you give atention to the big end journal and the oil hole we can figure out that fault match with the cicle of stroke of the oil pump. So I think oil pressure maybe did that.
Just my 5 cents.
Cheers
VP
PS: Yes that damn IP still hamering my mind!
-
Gentles
The crank case is almost empty.
Oil pump only need a good clean (steel balls as valves), its in good condition.
Now make a though 60mm ring spanner to get off the flyes.
A few pics
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP. Things are looking good. I am still not sure about that hole in the big end bearing shell, Most engines run with an oil pressure of between 20 and 100 pounds per square inch. To punch a hole through a steel backed Babbitt shell would require thousands of pounds per square inch, I don`t think the oil pump would produce that sort of pressure. Does the oil pump have a bypass valve to prevent excessive oil pressure? Does the oil pump lubricate other parts of the engine or just the big end?
Good luck with the flogging spanner.
Bob
-
Gentles
A few more bits off and start to put things on track.
Stuck decompressor limiter saved;
Tappets off, and nice;
And, finally, injector came out. Look how thin is the injector body!
A few pics for the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Bob, Gentles
Thanks for your support.
Oil pump as you can see is driven by an excentric cam in the main shaft.
The pump was full of water, maybe some reaction (???) with babbit. Didnt notice any bypass, and only lubricate big end.
Flogging spanner got to go to a torch, couldnt cut it, its too thick for hand tools.
A QUESTION FOR MEMBERS:
Cant see any timing marks neither at main, neither at camshaft. how can I be ware of its marks.
And how can I straighten the push rod without bend. The tube is very elastic.
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, there are sure to be timing marks probably just hidden by rust or dirt. If you can`t find them turn the crank to top dead center and look again. If you still can`t see them rotate the crank a further 360 degrees and look again. On a four stroke engine the crank rotates 720 degrees while the camshaft rotates only 360 degrees. Failing all else, rotate the crank through its complete 720 degree cycle and watch the action of the cam lobes. You need to identify top dead center on the engines compression stroke, now put a couple of witness marks on the camshaft gears with a center punch, take photographs to help you with alignment during reassembly.
Bob
-
I stripped down a tractor engine that had the cam gear replaced. Same size gear but diesel version of the same engine but 90' out with the timing marks at TDC on #1. So I made my own marks to be certain. I knew I was on TDC as the rotor button was facing #1 and the cam lobes were away form the cam followers so I marked everything up at that point.
It was not until later that I found out about the difference between TVO and Diesel cam gears. Very glad I took the steps I did as it made assembly so much easier.
-
Hi Guys, a long time since I heard anyone mention TVO! Tractor venting oil was common during the second world war due to the shortage of petrol. Farmers bought tractors that could be started on petrol and then switched over to TVO once running, TVO was very similar to kerosene. I remember driving one of these tractors when I was a boy. I wasn`t aware that the timing marks were different but it does kind of make sense if the camshaft for the diesel and petrol/TVO engines have the same lift and open/close slope, the only difference would be the timing. I live and learn :)
VP you don`t show pictures of the camshaft/crankshaft gears. Are you able to put a witness mark on them or are they too deep in the engine? If they are too deep, clean them and then mark them with a permanent marker, dismantle and then immediately put the permanent witness marks in place.
Straightening the bent pushrod may be more difficult if they are as thin/flexible as you say. Both ends will have a hardened insert, if you can remove one of these you can fill the tube with something to stop it creasing as you try to straighten it. You could try very fine sand compacted or try to find a piece of nylon rod that would slide in. In the UK Air Force I had to make a lot of very complex bent pipes for aircraft. We had a product made by Monel, it was a metal that melted below the boiling point of water. Melt the Monel and pour it into your pipe, let it cool and bend it to whatever shape you want, warm it up and the Monel would flow out. Had a lot of fun making teaspoons that melted when you used them! :laugh:
Failing that measure the length of the pushrod then dismantle it, find some suitable new steel tube, cut to length and press the tips into each end.
Good luck,
Bob
-
i can't tell you how many bent pushrods i and others i have worked with were straightened with a ball peen hammer using the concrete floor as an anvil. were the perfectly straight afterwards? no... but they really don't need to be perfect to work just fine.
a reasonably straight pushrod will take hundreds of pounds of straight line force without bending. maybe even thousands of pounds.
just take a hammer and tap on it, roll to find the high spot, hammer a bit more, roll and repeat until it rolls fairly well, and it will work like a new one.
only pushrods we ever rejected were cummins pushrods which were/are hollow, all of which would be dropped on the floor and if they rang out like a chime they were good to go, if they had a muffled sound, they were full of oil and we would replace those.
bob g
bob g
-
OK. Memory lane here
I grew up driving old British machinery made in the '40s & '50s - and your pushrod stories remind me . . . .
Some of those Luton-built Vauxhall/Bedford engines were designed to have the valve clearances set when they were hot and running. They were screw-and-locknut rockers. IIRC there were .007 and .013 valve clearances and Vauxhall/Bedford supplied feeler gauge strips in these two sizes in the form of flexible metal strips maybe a half-inch in width and a couple of feet in length.
The process wasn't complex as there were no "find TDC" issues with the engine running. You simply loosened off the locknut and screw a tad and inserted the end of the feeler strip. As the pushrod moved it would pinch-and-release-pinch, obviously. As you adjusted the screw, you could feel - by pulling the strip back and forwards a bit - when the "pinch" was just right. Tighten the locknut at that and move onto the next . . . .
As you might imagine, a certain technique was required - but not as difficult as it sounds.
However, three hands were needed: One to hold the spanner on the locknut. One to hold the screwdriver that wanted to keep bouncing off the top of the adjuster screw. One to hold the feeler gauge strip. Bear in mind, also, the engine is running sans rocker cover that this point - albeit at a slow idle - so there's black oil everywhere.
The approved technique is: One hand on the screwdriver. one hand on the spanner. Hold the feeler strip between the teeth (also had the benenfit of giving you a good, close, look at what you were doing) and move the head back and forwards a little to "feel the pinch".
When the end of the feeler gauge strip got a bit too battered - just nip it off and move on
Stories of glasses spattered with engine oil are legion. Better, though, is the description of the oil as it migrated up the feeler gauge strip (oil was thin, black shit in those days), how it tasted, and the stains it left in one's beard as it dripped off the edges of the bottom lip . . . .
Those were the days . . .
-
Gentles
Thanks for your patience and kindeness to follow the Deutz lunatic ( ;D ;D ;D);
Still stuck in rust - but things are going slowly and nice.
Today here is a holyday, and so the Mighty gave some help, I think.
Injector is apart; Prechamber is out and rocker assembly also stripped.
A few pics for the show:
1 - Injector apart;
2 - Prechamber going down;
3 - Prechamber out;
4 - rocker rust falling apart;
5 - rocker giving fight;
6 - And more fight;
-
A few more pics:
1 - rocker assembly full apart;
2 - A tool?
A candy to whom tell if pic 2 is a tool.
Cheers
VP
-
i can remember a 55 chevy that used to race on the streets around here back in the early 70's
it had a 327 small block with solid lifter cam, and the owner used an old table knife as the feeler gauge
to set the valve lash with while running
and yes there was oil everywhere!
of course we also set points with a match book cover, which was close enough for the girls we ran with.
ah yes, the good ol' days
bob g
-
Gentles
Thanks again for all your support.
Special thanks to Guillermo Riesz [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpWo21SrBRlHdMPFVnsv-DQ/videos], for the support of the user manual - fortantly it has the timing method.
A small help is better than none!
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, I think the steel wool may have been an air filter not a tool.
For many years we set spark plug gaps to a hacksaw blade an points by the look of the gap. The kitchen knofe must have been one of the older types with the thin carbon steel blade not the thick stainless steel blades.
I have a couple of the old high carbon steel blades that actually were a butter knife but I run them on the oil stone and they make the best sharp knives in the kitchen and hold the edge very well. So if you see some in an Op Shop grab them and try it.
-
Cobba, Gentles
Steel wool is smother than this steel staw.
This was a round of steel straw and its used - or was mainly used - to scratch wood floors is order to give it after a coat of wax.
This one was used to scracth the rust arround the rockers shaft.
And yes, can be used also as air filter.
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, God loves a tryer, about time he joined in with all the hard work you are doing. :)
It`s all looking good, how is the rocker assembly lubricated? I`m guessing it`s done manually with an oil can and hasn`t been done for a long time. I hope the shaft and bushes clean up ok. If the bushes need replacing I recommend using Oilite bushes which will require much less regular lubrication.
The construction team are starting work on my new shed tomorrow, happy days!
Bob
-
We have a product here that looks the same but is made of stainless steel and is called a scourer. Mainlu used in washing up. They look like a neat ball from new but then flatten out and eventually will look like yours. I have heard of timber floor treatment being done that way but never seen it.
-
nope it was a standard old thick blade butter knife that he used, iirc he said it was about .019"
which was close to what the cam grinder called for back then.
oh yes, the thing clattered like hell as i recall, but it ran like an ape with his tail on fire.
bob g
-
Gentles,
Bob: All system in head is hugely rusted and scalling. Lub made by oiling the hollow shaft manualy; bushes are new conditon. Hope you too soon start doing your stuf. Good luck.
Cobba: Yes a ball of stainless for pans here too, and is too soft for the job (but I have it on shelf for clean inside valve guides and so on. Timber on sail boats use the straw to put new coat of marine varnish.
Bob G: I hope this german rusty iron will still be able to pull a 55 chevy, or at least have fun running it.
Now the improvements:Injector spring is out. No doubt this guy swallowed water.
A pic to joy.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
This reply is special, because it is unique in the web with Deutz MAH 914 injector piece by piece.
1 - Injector index;
2 - Other view;
3 - Nozzle extration;
4 - Nozzle out and tools to the job (alu shims, brass nut, steel pin);
5 - Extract nozzle body from valve (soda can as tool too);
6 - Nozzle apart;
-
It has a BOSCH DN 12 SD 221 nozzle;
And this is the first pics or images of this injector stripped at web, and now available for everyone.
Now I just need someone tell me the work pressure in order to set it right.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
My German friends states the correct pressure for the injector is 120 Bar. (https://www.deutzforum.de/threads/deutz-mah-914-1952-to-be-restored.63951/post-605164 (https://www.deutzforum.de/threads/deutz-mah-914-1952-to-be-restored.63951/post-605164))
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, it looks to me that the pop pressure is adjusted by adding or removing shims above the spring. As springs age/wear they loose some of their strength. So clean it all up and reassemble it as it was. Do a pop pressure test. My guess is it will pop a little under the 120 Bar, recommended by the German forum. Add shims until you get it to pop at 120 Bar. Look for a nice spray pattern with no dribbling, you might find you need a new injector nozzle.
Keep up the good work,
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
Many thanks for your support.
You know I dont need to make trails on injectors. I have a near me an expert company with laboratory (see here: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8333.msg100298#msg100298 (https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8333.msg100298#msg100298); and here: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8320.msg96965#msg96965 (https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8320.msg96965#msg96965)) - and I have good relationship with manager, just because I hull to there stuf he doesnt see from years.
Therefore I'll take this one to them also.
And yes, I got shims (from my 12/2, to make clearence to throtlle linkage) that could do the job, even if company doesnt got them.
Lets see, and finger crossed (I think nozzle is prestine).
Cheers
VP
PS: A pic with injector reassembled to keeps bits together.
-
I agree that over time springs do loose some pressure, especially if it was compressed after shutting sown last. You mentioned to add a shim to lift the pressure but to me that sounds back to front. If it has lost pressure I thought you would remove shim/s.
-
Hi VP, I am surprised the local diesel engineers don`t know what the pop pressure should be, but I`m very happy you have a good relationship with them and they like fixing old stuff.
Hi Cobbadog, I`m pretty sure that if you want to increase the tension in a spring, you need to shorten it. Blonde moment? :)
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
I dindnt said local diesel dont know. They are a Bosch Laboratory (state of the art). This kind of injectors are legacy a long a go and machines now are set to do just only a few kind of jobs.
Do you can get my point?
Cheers
VP
-
Hi Gentles
A few more bits out, and preparing flys extractor.
Pics by order:
1 - 18mm threaded rod 8.8 to make flyes extractor and save it to fix it later to kart;
2 - Ups... IP tappet guide is cast iron, and is britle. STUPIDITY STRIKES AGAIN; (late night... Hum let me see if pry bar take it out!)
3 - Head is clean and limestone dissolved with chemical;
4 - One more pan of bits to derust.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
Head is finally empty. Got to extract valve guides, because exhaust guide is lubricated and was completely clogged, and removed anti freeze plug.
Save banjos from (remnants) of fuel tank.
Straighten pushrods, and remove stuck rings from piston.
A few pics for the show:
1 - The little red pushing down guides;
2 - Guides clean, and intake guide shows a DIY adjustment!
3 - Valve spring recess shows this engine will have thousands of working hours.
4 - Jig to extrat anti freeze plug. (Remember this jig from the Lister? See here: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8320.msg97397#msg97397;
5 - Special square key (mild steel) twisted doing the job, first with french wrench... but only the pipe wrench done it;
6 - Plug out and all clogged.
To be continued...
-
A few more:
1 - A bit of scale at bottom of head;
2 - Straighten pushrods with jig mande of pipe with some heat to help;
3 - Pushrods made true;
4 - Saving banjos of fuel tank;
5 - Rings stuck removed.
Some conclusions I can made about this Deutz:
I think it was installed in plant from a 2nd hand owner, with fresh (gray) paint (it has the brown under);
I think it has thousands of working hours, and it had water in fuel circuit till injector - therefore I think someone in time sabotaged it.
For sure it was overhauled in 1996 - at least piston and rings.
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, it doesn`t look as if the damage to the guide is anything to worry about. Working when tired often leads to poor decisions.
Cleaning nuts, bolts and other small pieces is the bit I hate doing. I have tried all sorts of chemical cleaners and rust removers. Some will remove old paint while others will remove rust. I have never found one that will do both. Now I tend to remove the paint with a wire wheel and then drop everything into a bath of molasses for a week. Molasses contains an acid that eats rust and is very cheap at about $1 per litre. Available as horse feed from agricultural stores.
Keep up the good work
Bob
-
Everything looks good except for that fuel tank which needs replacing.
I doubt it was sabotaged deliberately, much more likely someone put contaminated fuel in it. When it wouldn`t start they didn`t have the knowledge or skills to fix it, so it never ran again. Hopefully it will soon. :)
Bob
-
I have tried over the years many ways to clean up paint and rust. It is hard to find one product that does both but that is ok. I have use oven cleaner (caustic) for light paint removal but the wire wheel is quicker. I have used molasses mixed with water and it does work on rust but slow. To do it quicker I used the molasses mix and then fitted up the electrolysis set up and that worked but the smell was not good. Electrolysis using soda ash works very well and many different metals too. Rust converter on flat steel does a good job providing you are going to paint the surface otherwise it turns the steel a bluish colour.
-
Bob, Cobba, Gentles
After several products, end up using deoxidiser, as pic shows. (10€/L. Recipe is mix it with water, and quantity measure done by eyeball)
Tried electrolysis but process is slow and sacrifice metal (brake disc) made a mess.
In the 12/2 i've use oxalic acid. It's good but requires more wire brush after job done, and bit start to rust quick if you dont oil it after dry it.
Ring wrench is rough cut, now need to file it till it feats.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
After more than 1h filing and 'calipering' to fine tuning the ring wrench, it feels as a glove.
Mount the jig to hold flys steady with a chain and 12mm rods...
Nothing like having a well-fed belly to put on top of extender of wrench to unscrew the main nuts! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
NOTE: RIGHT FLY NUT IS LEFT THREADED, AND LEFT FLY NUT (GOVERNOR SIDE) IS RIGHT THREADED.
a few pic for the chow.
Cheers
VP
PS: Next task is to make jig to extract flys. Got some ideas on mind!
-
Gentles
Things seam to get on track.
Small bits are derust and on basket with WD40, just to stay nice.
As usual, I like to correct threads in order to give them the right pitch... but this guy catch me with pants on hands (popular saying).
Nuts use metric wrenches... but inside... SURPRISE, SURPRISE... BSW and BSF(?) pitches. Holy Moly!!!
1 - Crank shaft screw (60 wrench) - 33mm ~ 11/16" - 11G (BSW);
2 - Governor controller screw - 12,7mm ~ 1/2" - 19G - what a hell, is there chart for this pitch?
3 - Rockers stand - 20,8mm - 13/16" 14G - Another?
4 - Injector studs - ~13mm - 1/2" 12G (BSW)
Some help here, please!
Cheers
VP
PS: I think this was a cost of 2nd World War. German industry was destroyed.
-
Hi VP, I think you are probably right about the problem being related to the second world war. At the end of WW1 the British forced the Germans to sign the treaty of Versailles. This was an onerous document and would have left the German people living in poverty for centuries. They rebelled against it, leading to WW2.
At the end of WW2 the Americans wanted to avoid a WW3 so they came up with the Marshall Plan to help European nations to rebuild their industries and societies. Germany was a recipient of this aid and it resulted in the enormous industrial powerhouse we see today.
While Germany was able to produce steel in metric sizes, it had to import manufacturing equipment from the USA or the UK where they still used imperial threads and measurements. Consequently there are lots of pieces of 1950`s/1960`s equipment that are a metric/imperial hybrid.
The cheapest and in my opinion best solution is to buy yourself a Zeus book. This handy little book contains all the thread pitches and angles for both metric and imperial threads. You should be able to order one online for around 15 Euros.
That reminds me, I need to order one for myself, my 40 year old one got burned in the bushfires.
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
German Deutz moderator, Matze, say "The engines were built when Cologne was occupied by the Americans or after it was occupied. Then the rest of the parts were used up." (https://www.deutzforum.de/threads/deutz-mah-914-1952-to-be-restored.63951/post-605477 (https://www.deutzforum.de/threads/deutz-mah-914-1952-to-be-restored.63951/post-605477));
Therefore pitches will be (55º, instead of 60º), UNC or UNF or some other fancy ancient America thread pitch.
LETS SEE HOW IT GOES.
Cheers
VP
-
BSW and BSF (british standard whitworth / fine) are the 55' pitch. Others are the 60' pitch for the Imperial threads.
-
Gentles, Cobba
Ah... Ah... after all we got nice Members paying atention.
Made it wrong expressly, to get replies in order to made my pool of Authority Members.
Just joking! ;D ;D ;D; Just switched tables and didn't paid attention to right pitch standard.
Thanks for made the remark.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
Here it is the flys extractor jig, made by NASA's specs. 8.8 grade, M18 rod, and M18 union. Now on is brute force! ;D ;D ;D
The UPN (80mm) was get from the same company (truck cargo box company), and this bit was a leftover since I made my hidraulic press. Who will imagine that?
Lets see how it goes!
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
Give flys extractor a side strategic approach in order to be able to screw the union fastener. Nothing fancy, just a tweak.
The UPN beam start to left the straight line (elasticity) and after I give a moderate heat at the fly boss.
Some drops of WD40 to soak the rust... and a several vigorous hits with wood mallet (with hands, off course) in order to send vibrations thru cast iron.
Off course I only unscrew crank nut 1 turn (otherwise it will fly to Tasmania. ;D ;D ;D). when it breaks rust it slams at nut.
My friends there was huge energy stored... it clacks hard against crank nut (I learn this one with Squatch253. See here: https://www.youtube.com/c/squatch253 (https://www.youtube.com/c/squatch253);
Now some pics for the show, by order:
1 - measuring straightness of the jig, in order to put equal force on both sides;
2 - heat, with my 1L torch;
3 - rotating and slamming evenly the fly (Alu can is to protect rod pitch);
4 - Fly is free;
5 - Flys are out;
6 - Crankcase free of flys;
To be continued...
-
1 - First a tribute to the well made jig;
2 - Oil seal body, from governor side;
3 - Oil seal body, from non governor side;
4 - Oil pump shaft (Why a stamped seal in this bolts? they only, I mean only, hold the shaft in place with a copper washer. Why? [Question for German knowledge])
5 - A close look at the rust that goes inside oil seal. Amazing;
6 - A tribute to wooden mallet. Its fair!
A few more... be patient!
-
1 - Governor oil seal off;
2 - Crank rusted, and conical bearing race nut holder (need to withdraw to take off crank);
3 - Non governor oil seal and ball bearing;
4 - Ball bearing retaining nut (Last overhaling hammer substituted hook spanner);
5 - Crank is out. Pay attention: THE CRANK BALL BEARING MUST TAKE WITH IT THE FLANGE, OTHERWISE CRANK WILL STUCK, (I got to put bearing again inside flange and job tooke twice the time);
6 - Be carfull with bearing nut, its mild steel, very mild!
Thats all for now!
Cheers
VP
-
Good work there VP. Flywheels can be a problem at times. My last engine project was a SE McDonald Super Imperial Crude Oil engine. (that is a mouthful to say) Both flywheels had to be removed. This took close to a month, not full time, but many many hours. First the gibb head keys broke. So I welded a bolt to them and bought a rather heavy slide hammer, but no joy. Then started drill the key out and had a drill bit break off in side just to test me further. Eventually I managed to drill enough small holes to be able to collapse the key and remove it. Now to get the flywheel off. I had a puller for the job as well and had to use WD40 or my preference is Lanox also used with some heat to soak it inside onto the shaft. Still no go and even with shock treatment around the outside and more intense heat it was not moving. Something I tried was instead of heating the hub of the flywheel I heated the outside rim and I don't know if that is why it released or not but it worked. Then I had to do the other side all with the same dramas. Engine was made in March 1945 and I feel it was the first time they had been removed.
-
Hi VP, very nice work, flywheels can be a bugger to remove. I have no idea about the oil pump lead seal unless it was something to do with the warranty; messing with the oil pump would invalidate the guarantee.
How do the crankshaft and camshaft bearings look? When I was rebuilding my Cooper engine I could not buy replacement bearings so I had to modify the housings to take bearings that were available.
That crankshaft looks to be in near mint condition, I`m looking forward to seeing the condition of the camshaft, hopefully it is just as good.
Bob
-
Hi VP, I`m a little curious about the oil seals. One end shows the bearing held in place with a regular toothed c-spanner nut and the housing has a neoprene seal. The other end has a similar nut but it has an oil thrower ring turned into it, does that end have a regular neoprene oil seal or is it a felt seal?
Bob
-
Bob, Cobba, Gentles
Stupidity strikes for the 3rd time.
I put the valve guides to clean in the deoxidizer... and it ate the metal.
I didn't realize it was a steel alloy that must have a high percentage of zinc or magnesium. Now they are definitely destroyed and I have to buy new ones or have them made.
the exhaust guide was good, the intake guide was not so good, because it was worn inside and had already been hammered on the outside to keep it in place.
I'm green with shame, but that's life.
It start to be a lot of error on the same machine...damn, damn, damn.
About the oil seals at bearing covers they are both rubber,
The oil thrower ring in fact is a nut to retain the roller bearing. Cant figure out why is different ro why its a oil thrower.
Now got to make a 42 spanner to take out cam shaft.
Well, things are no so bad till now compared with Cobba's engine.
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, valve guides are often made of sintered cast iron. The high carbon/graphite content acts as a lubricant. I don`t understand why they would dissolve in the cleaning fluid.
You may not be able to get replacements easily, if not, you should be able modify what is readily available. I recently replaced all the guides from a vintage tractor. I couldn`t get the right guides so I bought some that were too long and shortened them.
What are the valve seats like? Are they cast iron or does the head have toughened steel inserts pressed in? Sometimes it is necessary to have the seats recut after fitting new guides, it can be done by hand if they are cast iron but may need to go to a machine shop if they are hardened steel.
I would offer to make replacements for you but all my workshop tools are still in two containers until my new shed is completed.
Keep up the good work, still looking forward to seeing that camshaft.
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
Maybe that carbon/graphite as you say, because this deoxidiser takes out all galvanized from screws or nuts.
It doesnt attak naked steel or copper.
Valve seats are hard steel inserts and they are good as new. All the engine inside is in very good condition. I think it stops to work a few years after overhauling because piston rings and piston are new. Big end need a buffing just to be smooth.
Camshaft is in good condition (as far as I can see), I'm enrolled to take it out, but more rust and it's spinning and I need to make another wrench for it to hold from inside - it has one face flat - and it will be another challenge.
I'm sorting already some bits by function - but Im paying the price to not have the shop book.
See pics of guides and a fly date.
Had you saw my bloody video about, and my happiness?
Cheers
VP
Ps: Exhaust valve is lubricated, and inlet valve uses some drip oil of air filter.
-
Hi VP, yes I watched your video, wasn`t too much to be happy about.
I`m looking at that fly wheel and realize that it is older than me and in much better condition! :laugh:
Looking at the two valve guides, I`m wondering if they were being held in place by the rust. Now you have removed the rust they are loose. Certainly one of them has been peened to get it to fit. It could be that the valve stuck in the valve guide and the valve guide moved. Check for wear in the cylinder head.
If you can`t get replacements let me know the exact dimensions required and I will try to make some for you, if I can get the sintered iron.
Bob
-
Gentles, Bob in special
Stupidity cannot be cheered!
Nearby me I have at least 2 companies where I can order new guides, even with new material tech.
The point is I'M NOT PAYING ENOUGH ATTENTION. CAPISCI?
And this is very bad to whom is doing restoration. Restoration is scientific, and I'm screwing things!
You can gold plate the pill, but it still hard to swallow! (popular saying).
Going to the point: the head is in good shape at all specs (after all this mess I done!). Its pure cast iron. (but not all is British, and straight thru as was the Lister. I think Germans where ahead in that time with siderurgic steel alloys and other materials).
Bob, please just send in PM address in order to send you the key to the new shed! (do you want I make a pic?).
Some late pics:
Yesterday the Deutz block was turned to side in order to withdraw cam shaft;
Today a guy didn't handbrake hard his van and it enters thru the door of garage.
Look at the door. Need a new one. insurance will pay, but company is closed for vacations till 1st sept.
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, don`t worry about the shed door, at the rate you are collecting engines you are going to be needing a bigger shed! :laugh:
That camshaft looks to be in near perfect condition. Looks like the cam followers have roller bearings, very nice. Someone a while back tried modifying Lister CS cam followers to have roller bearings, can`t remember how it turned out.
Will PM you.
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
No Bob, that cam is only to IP. Valve tappets are excentric to rotate.
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, so the setup is identical to a CS just different housings and components. I am enjoying this tear down/rebuild. Much better than the sh1t on television! :laugh:
Bob
-
Gentles, Bob
Another consequence of 2nd world war (In my thoughts) is the sand I found in external of the Deutz - inside is painted, OFF COURSE, TO HIDE ANY SAND.
Outside Im foundig sand in tight corners - Im using wood steel chisels to remove old paint - and at corners they get severly worned.
I think at that time they need desperately to put the industry on feet, again.
So, quality was a minus in process. Inside paint to fill imperfections and outside paint all - sand included.
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, I suspect you are right that there was financial pressure to get the finished product out of the factory door as quickly as possible.
That said, the castings appear to be of very good quality and should clean up nicely, just a shame that it is taking you so long to do what should have been done in 1952! Can`t wait to see the results, have you decided what colour it is going to be painted?
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
Official color of Deutz was "Braunrot RAL 3011 oder grau RAL 7037".
It means brown red and gray, with RAL codes.
I'll order in same guy that made me the MBG, the RAL 3011, but enameled and heat resistant. And glossy!
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
things seems to be more calm.
Started to sort bits and put them with each place in order to assemble them later.
2 pics to joy.
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, that all looks in good condition and has cleaned up very well. It looks to me like you don`t need too many items to get it running and looking good: 1 x injector pump element, 2 x valve guides , paint and lots of hard work, not bad for a 70 year old piece of German/Portuguese heritage machinery. Well done. :)
Bob
-
Hi Bob, Gentles
You wish! The list is longer.
2 valve spings;
2 valve guides;
1 rocker balance spring;
1 governor lever spring;
1 IP rack pring;
1 IP element;
1 head gasket;
1 fuel filter;
2 oil rings:
1 wrist pin bushing;
1 case of Zundfix (fuses);
some bolts, and washers, paint... etc, etc
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, it`s still not bad for it`s age, I am a bit younger and could do with a new heart, liver, kidneys, lungs and then there is the chassis and bodywork! :laugh: I don`t believe in reincarnation but it is beginning to look like the best option. Keep smiling, no surrender!
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
A few hours spent with the block of the German, passing the wire wheel.
A first pass, because some spots need more deoxidiser to clean in order to receive fresh primary.
A pic for the show.
Cheers.
VP
PS: But first got to take out cam shaft!
-
Hi VP, please be careful with that old paint. Back in the 1950s they were still using lead based paints, not good for your health.
Looking forward to a coat of primer. Are you hand painting or spraying?
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
Using mask, because is wide area and environment get dusty.
Bob, since morning till evening everyone eat lead.
It will be paint brushes. For me cast iron is brush painted.
Stay tuned!
VP
-
Hi VP, can`t agree more, red/grey oxide primer applied with a brush is the best thing for cast iron. Maybe a little filler to cover up any nasty casting holes.
I`m staying tuned,
Bob
-
I just used some red oxide primer onthe tray of our beaver tail truck. Fantastic paint then got most of the tray coated in red high gloss epoxy paint but ran out of time before going to this weekends rally.
-
Gentles
An afternoon kicking the Deutz, and I could manage to take off limescale with descaling chemical.
Use some straps of rubber to buffer the passage to head, and put head buffering block.
A few pics of the mess. Not all clean but bottom fair clean to remove liner.
After another task.
-
Gentles
Finally camshaft came off (SOB). And so has the IP tappet and its guide.
The camshaft has a design flaw. The stud could been conic, or have a dowel or other thing to make solid.
Was a nightmare to withdraw it, because it turned, and the narrow single flat on shaft it's not enough to hold it with a wrench. Just my frustration.
IP tappet and guide came off smodly. Last time stupidity striked, and guide won a dent!!!!!
A few pics with explanation of measures of 'this' camshaft and how to time this engine - IT DOESNT HAS ANY TIMING MARKS.
And the crank handle won a primary coat! Hua!
stay tuned for more updates!
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, looks like you are making good progress. The camshaft is in very good condition for a 70 year old item, I`m guessing the lift on the inlet and exhaust lobes would have been the same so there is 0.1 mm (less than 4 thou) of wear on the exhaust lobe. Not too surprising given that the exhaust valve gets bound up with carbon soot from combustion, it could also be as a result of poor spray lubrication caused by the engine geometry.
The limescale build up does not look to be too bad, they probably used rainwater rather than tap/well water.
Are you going to replace the sleeve or just clean it and reuse it?
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
I think cam is in very good condition.
They used creek water as cooling, therefore there is decades of limescale.
Just clean sleave and see oring condition or replace it to new.
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, if the sleeve is in good condition I would just be replacing the O-ring seal, I would be replacing the seal regardless of it`s condition. When reinstalling the sleeve it can be much easier if you leave it in the deep freeze overnight. You might want to put a couple of witness marks on the block and sleeve before pulling it out, that way if there is wear in the bore it will all be reassembled as it was.
Bob
-
I find it odd that there are no timing marks on the cam or gears. I would hyave marked them myself before disassembly just to make sure all went back together again timed. Good idea for marking the liner before removal,
-
Cobba, Bob, Gentles
Yes, liner will have witness mark, and follwing the book timing this engine will be like you can see at pic.
Just a few cents for the rant.
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, So the two bolt holes need to be vertical with the piston at TDC, be careful not to get it reassembled a tooth out either way, it will be a bugger to start and run like a dog.
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
When you say vertical, you mean those 'screws' have to be parallel to liner (camshaft is perpendicular to piston).
AND DOWEL (my scientific research) MUST BE (because after assembly you canot see intake top lobe) oriented to crankshaft.
And yes, one tooth out of timing can also make piston colide with valve. IM AWARE OF THAT, but nothing like to have gurus nearby. ;D ;D
German company can made (they have in stock for mah711: https://www.enginedynamics.de/traktoren-ersatzteile/deutz-khd/mah-711/248/ventilfuehrung-deutz-mah711?c=53 (https://www.enginedynamics.de/traktoren-ersatzteile/deutz-khd/mah-711/248/ventilfuehrung-deutz-mah711?c=53)) valve guides for me... if I order up to 50 pieces. ::) ::) ::) ::)
But thy can sell blancks too... for customization: https://www.enginedynamics.de/shop/en/blanks/fuehrungsrohlinge-guss/ (https://www.enginedynamics.de/shop/en/blanks/fuehrungsrohlinge-guss/); and I think it will be the best solution. Take a look!
Later I'll put another pic for LEF members comprehend the axles plan of the main and cam.
I'm watching that shed. Nice work.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles,
As promised 2 more pics of timing scheme, and...
The assembly of the camshaft.
Cheers
VP
-
a few more pics...
-
Hi VP, I love that governor mechanism, the Germans have some very skilled engineers and designers, that is a beauty.
A bit worried about the valve guides, 9 euros each as long as you buy 50 is a bit rich. My offer to do the machining stands but you will have to wait till my shed is finished and fully equipped.
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
This mechanism is tricky. There are too many pieces that can fly away inside crankcase.
I like more Lister mechanism, more simple and effective.
The valve guide blanks are 9€ each, and I can buy just one. I SAID, they tell me IF I want they can make the model for this engine, as long as I order at least 50.
But Im going order just blanks.
I need 22*95mm round, and they say it only be available in November, and not centrer drilled. CAPISCI?
To send to you the blanks they will be at the end at gold price. Your offer is priceless but you are around the corner only here! ;D ;D ;D
Cheers
VP
-
I hjad to make new guides for my McDonald engine and bought a 300mm length of 25mm diameter cast iron. Machined it roughly to OD and then drilled the bore undersize. Gave that to the engine rebuilder who made a final cut on the OD then pressed it into the head then reamed the bore to suit the new valves.
I must say that cast iron is a dream to machine.
-
Cobba, Gentles
Thats we are talking about.
Despite I made that mess to the guides - its just money (expensive, BUT...) - Im trying to put back on live a pearl, with history.
The girls that gave me the engine deserve it.
And Im learning. So far I didn't realise the science of materials.
This was (and is) an unknown world.
Found it the hard way? So did the Wright Brothers.
Cheers
VP
-
Found it the hard way? So did the Wright Brothers.
I am looking forward to watching you try to get the Deutz to fly! :laugh:
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
Good ideia Bob. Just give a help making the wings, because engine is not far to turn propeller!
See pic in order to make the Math. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cheers
VP
-
Hi Vp, I think that lovely piece of German cast iron is way to heavy to ever get off the ground. Properly geared, it might be adequate to provide a tow launch for a glider. I did a lot of gliding in my youth and always hated the ground tow style launch because I didn`t believe the tow cable would detach and I would end up going nose first into the ground.
Are you hunting Bamfords this weekend?
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
No Bob, this Saturday #1 put her foot on my neck.
This mounth we have the 3 cars to go to inspection. 1 is done. And today changed 220 000km oil to my Grand Scenic.
And the switch panel on steering wheel of the Magane of the #1 had malfuntion, and had to buy a new one (150€), and switch them.
Therefore, maybe next weekend, depending on weather.
Keep tuned.
VP
-
Gentles,
Yesterday give the German a get wash and put drying with blower.
Today (after dinner - yami) gave a coat of primary to prevent rust while process is ongoing.
A few pics for the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Very nice work as usual. You must by now be starting to feel as if you are making good progress.
-
Hi VP, nice work as always, can`t wait to see the look on your face when you finally get this 70 year old running.
Bob
-
Cobba, Bob, Gentles
So far my face is just worry!
My expetations are high BUT some parts - mainly those are not cast iron - are very pitted.
Morning at car inspection centre, and new oil rings and roller balls for governor.
2 pics for the enthusiast
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles,
Take a look at these pictures, and tell me if the bearing goes in or out of the block.
And if it goes to the inside, if it is necessary to remove the pin that holds it?
Or if this pin is a bearing position limiter?
Any help will be apreciated.
Cheers
VP
-
I feel the bearings will pull out of the crankcase. Can you see or feel if the bearing sits against that pin or not? Can you measure the OD of the new bearings and then the size of the oil seal and then the ID of where they sits. If it is close and judged to be an interference fit then pull the old bearings outwards.
-
Hi VP, I agree with Cobbadog, the bearings should pull out of the casing. It is hard to tell from the photo but is that a tapered roller bearing? If it is, the end float/bearing clearance would probably be determined by the length of the shaft and adjusted by adding/removing shims/gaskets under the bearing cover. I suspect the pin is there to stop the bearing race from falling into the casing during assembly or just an access point to allow you to lock up the shaft while tightening the nut on the shaft end.
Bob
-
Cobba, Bob, Gentles
Many thanks for your help.
I have the same point of view.... BUT. Lost some confidence with that "screwed" valve guides, and this German is not helping either.
Moreover it has UNC and other triky thread pitches!
Therefore it ends up to be not straight thru.
I'll try to jig the roller bearing out... and off course the liner too.
(I'm a nerd whom the word strip down is intended to be till the tiniest bolt)
Today I manage to get fuel filter - a compatible off course - and still be a compatible no longer made - its a NOS (felt instead of paper cartridge) in a very ancient filter store (here is the site: https://www.acel-autoacessorios.com (https://www.acel-autoacessorios.com)).
Its compatible to MANN BFU707.
A few pics to joy.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
Managed to get color from local dealer, and made decent dog for start handle.
Cheers
VP
-
I do like that Red you have chosen. What is the other colour you are applying please? Do you haev a relative that races in MotoGP?
-
Cobba, Gentles
When it dries it will be more brown than red. The other color is black, and will be for all head, all fuel circuit, crank handle and outer ring of flywheels - if cannot let it shiny and with varnish.
Today arrived bits for IP, and head gasket.
Get IP assembled (now we are talking about an IP working) and make the jig with high pressure pipe and assembled injector too.
Put back crankshaft on place and camshaft too.
FWIW, I think we can time the engine in other way too (just a matter of rotation) as you can see at pics.
I'll mount back tappet and IP, and test fuel IP, line and injector, and manage to put injector spraying at right pattern.
A few to joy.
Cheers
VP
PS: Cobba, the guy from bike GP is spanish, and is just a coincidence same name.
-
Gentles
No riding today! Last car to be inspected this morning, and the big toe foot nail needing to be grinded by surgeon!( >:( >:( >:()
So, rearmed the German (flys on), IP tappet, IP, HP line, Injector.... fuel, and I think it could fly today, if it hadn't been that mess with valve guides.
Still have a small leak in injector feed thread, but it will be lapped accordingly.
A pair of pics and a shared video (https://youtube.com/shorts/I4dBWAe2W9M?feature=share), for enthusiasts.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
First my apologies, because roller bearing is not tapared, BUT cylindrical.
Second, I managed to take it out.... patience and hammer and a hard stick of wood.
Third, if I needed a new one it will coast.... $509.76+ P&P. Holy Moly!
Just for the rant, this one has the cage straight from outside and round to inside in order to make easier to align the inner race to rollers.
Now only the liner left to remove. Got to make the jig to pull it out.
Some pics to the show.
Cheers
VP
PS: IF, the valve guides were not "screwed" the German had take off this afternoon. ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Hi VP, Looks like you are making great progress, that bearing looks to be OK. Wen I was rebuilding my cooper engine the tapper bearings were severely damaged by rust, the two replacements were going to cost $500 each. I machined the housings to take slightly larger tapper bearings which only cost $50 each, worked perfectly.
Apologies for not being more involved in your rebuild but I have been a little busy putting up my new shed, I`m hoping to have most of it finished by the end of the week, I will post some pics soon.
Bob
-
Lovely spray patern on the injector VP. We have and are still away on a short holiday which included attending the Clarendon Classic near Sydney, it was huge.
-
Cobba, Bob, Gentles
Many thanks for your support.
Start to paint bits and 1st coat on crankcase. Flys gone to be sand blasted.
Cheers
VP
PS: And Injector is at certification lab, to put at right pressure.
-
Looking good VP.
-
Cobba, Gentles
(While the toenail is healing...damn!) Took the injector to the lab, to certificate the right pressure (120Bar).
Once, again, they thought it was from other galaxy! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D (young guys that never saw a ancient injector, because Mr. Faria is on vacations).
Managed to make the steel plates for the liner extractor jig (pics will be posted).
Took the main crank (2 bushing for oil ring - cromoNikel), conrod (wrist pin bushing), oil ring shroud (oil ring seats), and hand crank boss (to weld, its broken) to VEICOMER (https://veicomer.com/en/ (https://veicomer.com)); Manager (Mr. Pedro) was exploding with a lot of work and few people to do it. I'm lucky he has consideration for me - and exceptionally accept this job.
Fuel filter is done... Take a look!
1st coat of paint (special as I said) on crankcase too.
2 pics for Members. You are a good audience, and a great help.
Cheers
VP
-
Slowly it is all comming together for you. Your workmanship is superb. We look forward to seeing further progress as it happens. Hope the toe heals (no pun intended) sooner than later.
-
Cobba, Gentles
As I said the jig to remove liner is done. Remove it its another deal! 18mm threaded rod 8.8, and couplers to put force.
NOT A MIL MOVED, till now.
Remember the seal at oil pump vane (https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9555.0;attach=7282;image) could clean it more and is genuine from factory. Observe states "Klöckner-Humboldt-Deutz AG", and Reverse "Köln".
Cheers
VP
-
Now that should pull the liner out.
-
Hi SP
Looks like more great work!
it's hard to tell from your photo, but it looks like fine threaded bar you're using on the jig. there's a 0.5mm thread for 20mm bar if you haven't gone that fine
Also, a trip to the local fire safety company might help, ask if they have a CO2 fire extinguisher that is at the end of it's life. Once you have the jig on maximum tension open the doors and windows and empty the extinguisher through the centre of the liner.
Do not stand in front / in line with the threaded bar, in case the cold causes it to break, otherwise we'll have to get Cobbadog and Bob over to finish the rebuild.....
Cheers
Sterf
-
Hi VP, that looks like a very robust puller, it should remove the liner without any problems. Stef is right that a temperature shock could help. Are you going to reuse the liner or replace it? If you are replacing it, run a couple of beads of weld around the inside of the liner where the liner meets the crankcase. As the weld cools it will shrink causing the liner to shrink and pretty much fall out.
My new shed is now erected and I will try to post some pics in the morning.
Keep up the good work,
Bob
-
Gentles,
Thanks you all for the suport.
Bob, Ill use this liner - just want to change ring. SO IT CANT BE DAMAGE AT ALL!
Stef, 18mm 8.8 its not enough to pull it out? Holy Moly! That one of CO2 its a good tip. Thanks again.
Cobba, good spirit. I like that! always positive thinking.
Lets see!
Cheers
VP
-
Hi SP
18mm 'should' do it. I don't know if you are aware, but 8.8 is the type of steel the bar is made of, the smaller / finer the thread is the more it will turn the torque you are putting in into a 'pulling force'
Think of it like gearing down.......
Cheers
Stef
-
Stef, Gentles
Some vacations days (now that the summer is ended, and people get to work again, and madness chill down at beaches), got the Injector from lab, to put it at 120bar.
They clean the Injector needle (with ultrasound) and had put 2 more 0,01mm washers (I toke to them).
Manual from Germany arrive today also.
About the threaded rod I know you are absolutly right, but now I only got the cat to hunt!
2 pics for the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
Finally the stuck liner is out.
The sledgehammer was a good help with the wooden stick.
Lime stone was rock solid.
Now a good clean and a new ring.
A few pics for the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Everything is slowly going your way. A rebuilt injector ready to install, a workshop manual that you can understand but not me and the all important liner is safely out. You must be happy.
-
Hi Guys, well done VP on getting the liner out. A bit of a clean and a new O-ring and you are ready to go.
Looks to me like your new instruction manual is written in German, are you a German speaker? More importantly do you speak technical German? I can speak a few words of German, French and Italian; enough to order a beer and a pizza, I would be completely lost with a technical manual in any language other than English. I take my hat off to you for your determination and linguistic skills.
Bob
-
Cobba, Bob, Gentles
It's nice to see some improvements - rather those setbacks that happened.
Yes, manual is german but the more important is sectional cut print of diagrams.
Text, just take a pic and upload to internet to de translated.
I'll order a deglaze to the liner.
Next task will order blanks to made valve guides, and start to reassemble.
Cheers
VP
PS: Bob take look of this guy that is reassembling a CHANGFA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLjozp5kSdA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLjozp5kSdA)): You don't need to know indian language to now what he is saying, because he's saying international language of any guy is puting in place camshaft. And he also talk indianEnglish and you can understand he is doing things right... WELL.... I use gloves on my hands and hammer got wood or alu, or brass first to hit anything. But there are a few engenierings in the world that anyone compreehend. CAPISCI?
Well, again, we got to tell him to heat piston first! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
PS2: A few more bits to the basket.
-
Hi VP, I get the point you are making about language. Most engineers can communicate by pointing and grunting!
I think that guy is going to have a lot of trouble cleaning his hands, I hope he has an understanding wife.
Good luck with the valve guides.
Bob
-
That little demonstration was interesting to say the least. Yes, words were not needed only gestures. I bet VP would not want him on his rebuild nor handle the nice clean parts VP has prepared.
-
Bob, Cobba, Gentles
A few more bits done to basket (injector, clamp and pump).
And... the damn sciatic nerve taking my night sleep - 4 nights - and pain killer not doing effect.
Result: shot direct in the harse! and more 6 to go.
The last bolt on the German I think it will be withdraw with the angle grinder. Do I need to remove it? Maybe not, but a restauration is a restauration, and restauration starts only when last bolt is removed. ::) ::) ::) ::) (My godness!).
This one already take a bottle of oxygen and now its stuk.... and I think is has one thread jammed.
Hum, another setback? maybe it's cursed. ;D ;D ;D ;D
A few pics for the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
Hooper stud won cut disc, and grind disc from angle grinder.
This stud never would be withdraw, because of rock solid limestone between threads.
Drill down and clean... WITH STUPIDITY - AND THE 5/16 12G TAP. (prior bad measure)
Off course got to buy the 5/8" 11G to clean it right!
3 pics - 1 of stupidity!
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, sorry to hear you have sciatica, I also get it occasionally. It can be very disabling and regular pain meds do nothing to help, I hope the injections work soon.
I think the tap you need is 3/8" not a 5/8"!
Nothing stupid about adjusting with an angle grinder, I`ve been doing it for years! :laugh:
Everything else is looking really good, can`t wait to see it all going back together.
Bob
-
I feel your pain also VP. I get sciatica when driving long distances and now since retiring we do a lot of long drives with the caravan behind us. So far no meds have made any difference including injections, so just do my best tot tolerate it and plan shorter trips where possible.
I would measure the thread on the end that you have cut off. I am not too confident that it will be an Imperial thread being German made engine so I would look closely at the Metric threads available in that diameter of rod. You would find it a huge help if you bought a thread measuring gauge that measures the pitch of both Metric and Imperial threads then match the pitch to that size rod and you will not make any mistakes in selecting bolts, nuts and especially taps and dies. Common pitches in Metric that size are 1.0mm, 1.25mm, and 1.5mm. Yes there are other pitches but these are the most common. Hope this information helps you and that you feel better soon.
-
Hi Cobbadog, I think VP is correct, after WW2 German manufacturing industry was next to zero. The Allies introduced the Marshal Plan to
help them rebuild. Early machines built in Germany up till the 1960`s very often had UNC nuts, bolts and fasteners made in the US or UK.
Sorry to hear you also have sciatica, getting old is not for the weak! :laugh:
Bob
-
I forgot about the period of time when the industry had almost stopped. Still, a set of thread gauges should be in every tool box and they are not expensive to buy.
I also have both shoulders that refuse to play the game any more. Both been operated on but that was a while back and now getting back to how they used to be, no good. Just retired last Christmas and now find myself digging a 60 mtr trench to catch rain water run off. I just dig for as long as I can then rest.
-
Bob, Cobba, Gentles
Thanks to share pain, and other grey hair limitations curricula. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Lets go:
1 - UNC or BSW are both 11G; well UNC will feel tight in BSW, and a litlle loose if inverted.. Am I right?;
2 - Bought the 5/8 bolt (and ordered tap BSW otherwise it as to be made expressly, and will be expensive), toke it to machinist to cut head and make thread.
3 - Could find the thread of governor control screw - Its a 1/4" Gas 19G.
And yes I got a set of thread gauges - BSW/F and Metric, but not UNC (not available).
2 pics.
Cheers
VP
-
Hi Cobbadog, I know just what you are talking about, with me it`s the elbows not the shoulders. My new shed has required hundreds of meters of trenches to be dug, the ground here has been too wet to use an excavator so I have had to dig them by hand. I find if I can dig for an hour and then have a beer, I can dig for another hour and repeat. There are 4 empty beer cartons in my recycling bin and the trenches are nearly dug! :laugh:
Hi VP, If I remember right, the difference between BSW and UNC is the thread angle, 55 and 60 degrees I think. So you are right a UNC bolt will fit a BSW nut, the fit will not be quite as strong but should be OK in this situation. You could also apply a couple of drops of thread locker. 1/2 " BSW and UNC have a different number of threads per inch. ( I think it was 38ac who reminded me of this a while ago)
Be careful with the BSP threads some have parallel threads and some are tapered, for example grease nipples generally have a tapered tread so they tighten into the hole.
Bob
-
Yes the difference is in the angle of the pitch. BSW = 55' and UNC = 60'. This is where your thread pitch gauge can come into play. If your BSW fits perfectly into the old thread with no light gap that is the one for the job. So as suggested use a thread locker (Loctite or similar) to ensure it stays where you put it.
Again gas does have a tapered or a parallel thread so be careful.
-
Cobba, Gentles
5/8 tap arrived, and.... job done! (Remnants of old stud got out and I was right - one thread of casting broke and jamed the stud)
2nd coat of paint and the German starts to dress. 1st coat at head also.
Some pics for the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Well done VP, second coat looks real nice. Hope your sciatica has improved after you river trip.
bob
-
Bob, Gentles
While waiting for parts and machinist shop its time to push forward some tasks in order to start put thing together.
Tomorrow will have flyes sandblasted, and paint job will continue.
A few pics for the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Very pretty VP, looks like you have started cutting gaskets. I hate cutting gaskets, especially where end float is determined by gasket thickness, finding gasket material of the right thickness can be a nightmare and often involves multiple gaskets between mating surfaces.
Keep up the good work, no surrender!
Bob
-
I too mostly cut my own gaskets and yes getting the correct thickness material can be a challenge and requires a few sheets of various thicknesses. Then they do have a tendency to 'dry out' and become stiff and won't compress like they should. In a case like that I have made the gasket and then soaked it to soften it, let it partially dry the fit.
-
Hi Cobbadog, I generally soak all my gaskets in aircraft gasket sealer, messy stuff but it works. Don`t try it on exhaust gaskets!
Bob
-
Yes I use the same sealer but still soften the paper first with water and a day or so later then fit it.
-
Cobba, Bob, Gentles
Oil resistant gasket paper can be softened and straighten with water? or a spray of water? My thick paper is well curled.
Today finished to put on his way - or best way - the HP injection pipe.
3 pics of how it was,
and I realised it was wrongly put in place,
so I managed to give it the right way.
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, that HP line looked badly out of shape and alignment, looks much better now.
Bob
-
Nice work with the new injector line. Yes the gasket paper I have is thin, around .5mm to 1.0mm and can be softened with water. When a roll of paper curls up it is because of the moisture content drying out.
-
Cobba, Bob, Gentles
Flywheels are back from sand blast (or glass or something else now allowed). [not cheap this job!]
We can see now the questionable quality of the casting (flys are straight forward molding and pouring, I think).
Nevertheless got them rim polished with scotch-brite disc on angle grinder, and put a coat of varnish. Walls will have same color of engine,
And the pulley also inside. Outside it already got a coat of varnish too.
A few pics for the show! (facility, casting, stamps, and primary)
Cheers
VP
-
A few more!
-
They have cleaned up nice. It is a shame about those porous holes but a little bit of filler won't upset the balance and would look nice once painted. One of the popular mediums used now at the blasters is crushed glass. Very abrasive but I use it in my small cabinet and after it has been used a while it softens and is quite good to use. So far so good with your progress.
-
Cobba, Gentles
After primary coat, gave 1st coat of "Brown red" to flys and pulley.
Cobba, no need to put filler - I like more cast iron as it got out of mould.
One pic for enthusiasts!
Cheers
VP
-
They do look good as they are and any restoration is done the way the owner wants them done and I can appreciate that.
-
Hi Guys, sorry I`ve missed a couple of days. The sand blasted bits are all looking very good, I`m with VP on the use of bog to fill holes, I doubt R.A.Lister or Deutz would have used it although it appears to be common in the Indian clone engines.
Are you using a high gloss or satin varnish for the outsides of the flywheels?
Bob
-
Bob, Cobba, Gentles
Just a proof of life to show 2nd coat of paint at pulley.
Bob, I order high glossy, because it shines nice outside. and make people crazy when you show off your work of art.
Cobba, nothing like to appreciate simple things, like "wau" nice restoration... how many years it was seated... how may hours you put on it... and some money too? Am I right? Color is that one the maker painted it to get out of factory, isnt it?
Cobba, what is your "poison"? (Did you know NZ is the antipode of my place?
One pic to showoff!
Cheers
VP
PS: A long morning (from 4AM) today at work with IronMan Challenge with ~5000 athletes, from 101 countrys (2 pic too - 70.3 and Elite).
-
Had to look up what antipode was so mine is the middle of the North Atlantic Ocean. Not sure what you mean by 'my poison', sorry.
The nearest large town to me is Taree NSW 2430.
-
Who had the bright idea of assembling 5000 adrenalin addicts in one place? No wonder you had a long day.
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
Bob, good weather, good food, good people... isnt that enough?
And today was redBull air race in the Tagus (Lisbon) river. And 3 big cruising ships.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles,
After more than a week away from the German, today finish to 'straighten' the fuel line from filter to IP.
After found a piece of pipe to complete the line, welded it and verified if it had any hole to close. A few of them of course.
Now primary, and 2 coats of black.
2 pics for the show.
Cheers
VP
-
When I have a suspect fuel line I find it cheaper to make a new one and re-use the ends if they are in good condition.
-
+1 Cobbadog, I would have cut off the damaged pipe and drilled out the ends of the banjo fittings to take new tubing. I have found that my local automotive brake specialist stocks steel hydraulic pipe in various sizes, even some copper plated steel tubing. I prefer to solder or silver solder low pressure pipes rather than braze them, it is much easier to clean off soldering flux than brazing flux.
Bob
-
Cobba, Bob, Gentles
Agree with you 200%, but.... by N th time... I want to save as much as possible original parts.
Off course I could make a fresh new line, but its not my goal.
Thats why those damn valve guides still stay in my mind. Capisici???
Cheers
VP
-
Yeah we understand, spent all the money on the paint! :laugh:
I am not sure but would copper tubing hold the pressures of a diesel injection system? I buy various lengths of copper tubing by the meter from EnZed locally in Taree and it is cheap to buy but only ever used it on the petrol engines on the toys we have.
-
Hi Guys,
VP, I am sure the repair will be fine, if it ever leaks it`s an easy external component to repair. Stop sweating about the valve guides, the damage is done, worse things happen to good people everyday.
Cobba, the tubing I was talking about is steel with electroplated copper coating to reduce corrosion, it makes it very easy to solder.
Bob
-
Yes, Bob, I know the tubing and as you say easy to solder whether soft or silver soldering, but so is copper tubing and is not expensive. I can see why VP wishes to keep the original metal line and as you say if it is a headache it is an easy one to fix.
-
Gentles,
Things are idling know - father in hospital since last 5th OUT - and big parts are at shop.
Moreover, today I toke liner and piston there to hone slyghtly the liner and to measure liner ovality.
Flys and pulley are wrapped after 2nd paint coat.
One axle is done (machinist job), with a pair of chinese wheels, that needed to have hole and nipple to lubricate.
Receive 2 dies (M20 and 1/2W) to put threads on spec.
Some pics for the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
Last axcis I made (FEV2020) was (is) to put on the PETTER PAZ1 with gen head (see here: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8333.0;attach=4492;image)
I know I have a bag of linch pins somewhere, because I ordered them from USA (Of course they arrived at gold price, but they are just what I need).
Already made an axis for the German, but now I need to put on it 2 linch pins.
DOES ANYONE SAW MY BAG OF LINCH PINS?
This German must be cursed!
Any help will be apreciated.
Cheers
VP
-
Sorry, I have not seen your bag of linch pins but I do have some here. We must be lucky because living in Rural NSW we can buy them at any tractor shop or even the local bearing shop and the nut n bolt shop sells them too.
The system you are using with the linch pins is exactly the same way I have done my last 2 transporters. It is so simple and works.
-
Gentles,
I'm starting to scratch myself with nothing to bang.
Seated balls on chair... and light hammer on hand to break solid rock lime stone on front and back seats of liner, after wire wheel to smooth.
On between, I found a stamp of maker at inside crank case paint. I think its a certification of warranty no sand inside. Take a look!
As far as I can read it says: "Versand" and "Erdprüfung". Dr. Google tell " Dispatch earth test". And in my poor english and worst Deutch, maybe it says "sand free" (inside!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D)
Some pics to the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
A Happy New Year to one and all.
Just a proof of life, to show the fuel tank I want to adapt to the German.
Its a Honda like fuel tank from online shop. Now got to make the stand to fit it.
Bought also a few M18 capnuts to make the trolley fancy.
2 pics for the show.
Cheers
VP
-
That fits quite well VP. Looking better each time you post more progress.
-
Hi VP, sorry to hear about your Father, I`m sure you and your Mother must be devastated. Please know that you have our deepest sympathy.
That fuel tank is completely wrong for that engine but should work fine, better to use something that is obviously not original than to try and mock up something that would still be wrong.
Looking forward to progress once the German parts arrive.
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
Thanks for your support and kindness.
I WISH to be able to get an original fuel tank, or have some company to make one equal, but... there isnt.
And this one only cost 24€ P&P included. Can you find better deal?
I think you will love that at the end.
Cheers
VP
-
Yes, VP, so very sorry to hear of your loss and of course your Mums loss as well. Your friends are thinking of you and wish you well for the future
-
Hi Gentles
After a good amount of time idling, and only doing a few minor things, such as restoring a FIAC compressor, and another one with scrap motor and so it lefts only the tank to make an air lung tank.
Get bored of waiting for germans to send valve guide blank, so got to the workshop to leave the Deutz head to make new valve guides.
The basket with the crankshaft with new bushings face to oil seal, the liner honed, the crankshaft covers and the connecting rod with the new pin bushing.
Now to do is assembling the interior and wait for the valve guides to be machined and put in head with valves.
And today I was given a mini band saw. NICE!!!!
Some pics to the audience.
Cheers
VP
-
As usual you have applied your high standard of restoring to the compresor, well done. Will you paint ome eyes on one end and call it Thomas the Tank Engine? ;D
-
Well done VP. You may not believe it but I am also restoring a pair of air compressors. I am also waiting for parts.
My electrician friend is boarding the ship The Spirit of Tasmania as I am typing this message. He should be arriving this afternoon. He`s got to get himself settled in his new home and then he will come and wire my new shed in a couple of weeks time. Then we can get to the fun part of playing with the 3 phase Petter generator.
I might take a couple of pics of my compressor projects.
Bob
-
Cobba, Bob, Gentles
nice to hear from you!
I got an eye on a 200L compressor with cilynder or motor scraped but it will give a very nice lung tank.
This ones Im restoring got a paint remover coat, after a primary coat, and now 2 hand of Michelin blue; inside all rust scratched up to remove rust.
Its a lot of time put in task? of course, but just the only way to not get bored!!!!!
stay tuned!
VP
-
Gentles,
The Deutz got more bits painted.
1 pic to the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles,
Start to sort bits out of basket.
Liner receive angle grinder with diamond disc of floor tiles to clean lime stone. a nice clean after with sand paper disc, and a coat of paint (temp resistant). no pics ... forgot!
Cleaned ball bearing of main, it got very dust and some debris from lathe at shop.
A few pics of shop mesures (a special request from me to machinist) of liner and piston to see how worn thing are, and ask to slightly hone the liner.
Big end was also honed and rod got new smal end bush, and big end ajusted to crank.
A few pics with mesures and stamps at crank.
Cheers
VP
-
There is a little bit of wear at the top end of the liner. When I recently did my Lister is was about at the suggested limits of wear. But I decided because it is a Rally engine and not going back to work I would just fit new rings and be done with it. Big enmd was only 0.003" wear again god enough. End result was plenty of compression and had to use a flat belt and tractor to start it up initially and there after by the crank handle. Yes that is a gap but if it too is just to take to a Rally then assemble it and enjoy. I dont see any issues with that small 'dot' on the crankshaft throw.
-
Cobba, Gentles
Yes the liner has some callus, but nothing that takes my sleep.
My toys are only to showoff!
the previous pic of crank where only to show how many stamps the put at crank to say it was good to go.
Today put oil seals in crank bearings cover, and first got to make the jig with a pipe cut and open. Got to press them in.
Cut gaskets for covers and fit in place with 1 side sealant.
After that clean crank from all dust, roller bearing and ball bearing.
Some pic to the show.
Cheers
VP
PS: New oil seal seats end up being a nice job, so as the bushing in crank for them.
-
You are getting closer to the finish and it is looking great.
-
Cobba, Gentes
One more bit. Governor lever spring - ONE of 2.
One was lost, and the other came at gold price.
Take a look at date of order and my patience to let them search for other spring.
After all its not only the engine that is tricky, some suppliers too! ;D ;D ;D
2 pics for the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Well you cannot call that service nor cheap. In cases like a simple coil spring I measure the thickness of the wire and how many turns per inch and go to the local hardware store and buy one as close to size as possible. Then I cut them to length. So far they have all worked well.
-
Gentles
Pushing the German some more steps... but before reassembling Im making the trolley, and a temporary skid to hold it.
The trolley will be reinforced with 2 steel corner beams.
3 pics for the show.
Cheers
VP
-
I know if I do something as a temprary measure it ends up staying that way.
-
Gentles
The German is going up!
Today put crank on place and measure the play 43/100 mm.
the 2 threaded rod studs help to align ball bearing boss to crankcase.
A few pics for enthusiasts.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
Liner is in, and oil pump too.
Rod and piston next. Piston needs heat to put pin.
A few pics to the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, still making good progress. Why does the piston need heat? Is it to fit the gudgeon pin? If so I would have thought that to be too tight a fit.
-
Gentles, Cobba
Cobba, yes is a tight fit, and is a good sign!
Put flys on crank to see how they fit. Gorgeous don't they?
1 pic to the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
After a work day nothing else better than some yoga by the German.
Give some heat to piston with hot air gun... and voilá pin slipped like butter. well not quite! ;D ;D ;D
I put all piston rings aligned at 180º from each (with gap by OD of pin), and oil ring by the pin to avoid any force on the ring tips. (Please tell if this is the right way).
Snug large end and give a few rotation and take cap out to see if everything was ok. put back cap.
Made a small oil sump (brake spray cap) and fill with oil, and give several rotation to crank, to put pressure at oil pump. As you can see it drips nicely.
Piston course at honed liner looks sweet!
Things look to come together.
A few pics for the audience.
Cheers
VP
-
I dont know what is the absolute correct positioning for rings gaps are but fitting them at 180' to each other to me gives the most chance of a better seal. Some fit them with an offset gaps around the piston. All seem to work.
-
Gentles
Today got head from VEICOMER (https://veicomer.com/en/ (https://veicomer.com/en/));
New bronze valve guides, milled surface, and top valve stems.
Now prepare all to put the German snoring.
A special thanks to Mr. Pedro, the VEICOMER's owner - as you can see he's also a man with hands on job, on top of running all the show at shop.
A few pics to the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles.
Because head got slight skim, now I got to do some math to confirm travel of valve stems.
Pay some atention do this pic: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9555.0;attach=7412;image (https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9555.0;attach=7412;image);
As you can see Cam lobe has 8mm profile, therefore got to extend measure to rocker arm, to get max travel of valve stem, and math says it will be max 13mm.
See pic!
Cheers
VP
PS: Late night putting things together, to avoid breaking bits one against others.
-
I had a similar but different problem to fix when I did my McDonald. I had to pack the connecting rod with spacers to increase compression ration but did not know how many. So with piston at TDC and on the highest lobe of the cam (long story on that comment) I started pushing the valve open until I felt it touch the piston and measured that then took out some clearance for heat expansion and problem solved.
Highest lobe on the cam is funny. The cam has 2 lobes one to give a little drop in compression for starting cold then once running it passes over that small lobe so fast it does not notice it.
-
Gentles,
A few more bits and tweaks.
1 - Big end torqued at 140NM; And oil pump by eyeball!
2 - IP tappet got also serial number;
3 - tin prove to get TDC bump clearence;
4 - tin smashed by piston at TDC;
5 - measuring clearance;
6 - Torque head nuts at 170NM... by now! [it has 3,6mm of clearance, therefore low compression, and I think this is why it need zundfix starting cigarettes]
-
7 - Rocker train;
8 - Injector and fuse holder;
9 - Governor controller and decompression lever;
10 - Fuel filter assembly.
Almost done...
Cheers
VP
-
So close now and looking good too.
-
Gentles
Fine tweaks at the German. I got to fill with brazing the decompression lever in order to make it accurate with intake rod stop nut.
And a tour to scrap man with some junk, found there a kerosene torch to restore. Nice isn't it?
A few pic to the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
Belive, its the same torch! 1st clean is done. Got to put new rubber gaskets, and leather in pump.
Decompressor lever got paint... again.
Cheers
VP
-
Nice repair on the lever. Lovely clean up on the blow torch. My Dad had a couple of them when he use to use them for heating his soldering iron. Unfortunately when he move to come live up here he tossed it out.
-
I too have a couple of those from my dad who was a council electrician in the early 50's. I also have his original pricker for cleaning the jet, which blocked often. He told me they were used mainly for making leaded joints (before the days of resin joints) using a grease cloth. 2nd most important job was for boiling a kettle to make tea. I also have a cast iron contraption that hooks onto the torch for the purpose of supporting the crucible or kettle.
-
Gentles,
As long as I cant get an original fuel tank, that holds return fuel lines, from IP and injector, ill put them to return to fuel filter - off course with goose neck, with lines passing by top level of fuel tank - and therefore fabricated a banjo tower.
A few pics to the show.
Cheers
VP
PS: already waiting for the zundfix to fire it!
-
Lovely job there VP and neat too. I was going to say that it is not hard to fit some copper tubes into the tank as a return line inlet but your idea works just as well.
-
Hi Gentles
YUPI! The zündfix arrived from Germany.
Buy it from https://www.oldtimer-kuepper.de (https://www.oldtimer-kuepper.de), and Im very happy with deal.
They are reliable! They also sent a catalog.
Now got to put oil in, torque flys, and - again - put diesel on the seringe to give it the first run.
A few pics for the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, what do the Zundfix do?Are they for starting the engine?
-
Hi Cobbadog, a lot of older diesel engines used these for first ignition of diesel. These engines did not have electric starter motors and the compression required for spontaneous combustion was too high for hand cranking. These are basically a fuse, you light them and put them in a small chamber attached to the combustion chamber where they initiate first smoke at a lower compression. I wish I had been on the forum more recently, I could have saved VP some money: a piece of lit cigarette will usually do the same job. Cheaper and locally available, don`t recommend smoking them!
Bob
-
Ok, Some Lanz Bulldog and Field Marshall tractors use a similar ideaa for a cartridge start. There is a clip around the place on how to make your own using blotting paper and a solution with I think salt petter in it. They roll them up like a cigarette and put them in a combustion chamber then hit a shot gun type of cartgridge with gunpowder only and that kicks them off.
-
Cobba, Bob and Gentles
A far as my research got, this starter fuse is needed due to LOW compression - large TDC clearance - and therefore air did not reach high temp in order to make combustion.
So the fuse autoingnites with compression and stays lit till it burn completely.
As you can see the TDC claearence is about 4mm and must add prechamber volume (see here: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=9555.msg111218#msg111218).
my 12/2 stay at 1,3mm - https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8320.msg102670#msg102670.
My 5cents.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
The German got his sump filled with fresh oil - 3,5L
Oil pump squirts ok - I think it should have a pressure relief valve, but as far I can see it doesnt.
Next task: screw tight flys nuts.
Remove fuel line to IP, to make test runs. After all ok Ill put line again from fuel filter.
Some pics for the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles,
Today, late afternoon, give flys a good squeeze with proper wrench (;D).
Got enthusiast and put also crank boss on, and pulley.
Syringe is on place too...
Almost there!
A few pics.
Cheers
VP
-
Very nice VP
-
Beautiful restoration VP, I'm looking forward to the video of it running.
-
Gentles,
Here we go again!
Before fire up the German, got to get the rocker arm balance spring. Buy it here: https://www.fanamol.pt/
Buyed 2 torsion springs - just in case (10€).
Made customisation spring, but not fully happy with result (it work, but not as I intended it should do)
therefore next came to workbench and it fits like it should do; see difference in bend angles!
As usually a few pics for enthusiasts members.
Cheers
VP
PS: Got to buy silicone hoses for diesel from syringe to IP, and return from IP to syringe.
-
Gentles,
Fuel lines are flooded.
As it was my thoughts, return line acts like a balance line, therefore my thoughts expressed here: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=9555.msg111236#msg111236, about make a goose neck, with lines passing by top level of fuel tank, made my theory true!
Never mind of theories. I want just the German kicking!
Maybe this mornig Ill put the fuse on it! LETS SEE!
One pic for the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Looking good VP. I hope she starts up easily after all your hard work. Looking forward to the video. What are you going to restore next?
Bob
-
Lovely work on the spring VP. We look forward to seeing and hearing the "German"run again.
-
Gentles,
The German is alive!
You can see the vids here:
1st attempt: https://youtu.be/5kGsakboBFI (https://youtu.be/5kGsakboBFI)
2nd attempt and run: https://youtu.be/gQq4xgi5IT0 (https://youtu.be/gQq4xgi5IT0)
Next task: make decent return fuel lines, fuel tank brakets, and the trolly.
Here are some pics for the show with preparations.
1 - Hanged on ceiling;
2 - Hanged on A frame;
3 - laid on rubber mat;
4 - Back on kart.
Enjoy.
Cheers
VP
-
Well done VP, a nice restoration of a part of our heritage, very nice to see first smoke on your videos. Looking forward to seeing the trolley you make and a fuel tank fitted.
Another one saved from the scrapman! :)
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
Ordered a brass tap to the German hopper. It arrived at gold price due the brexit. Customs charged me almost acquisition price. Damn Brits!
Thought the leaking was from flared joint of HP pipe to Injector. So make a visit to my friend Faria of MARCODIESEL, with 46 years of expertise.
Broke the conic joint and put a new one. Back to home and line still leaking. Damn German!
Put a toothpick clogging line and compressor tip at the other.... and: well, well the line is broken by the biconic seal!
Got another new biconic seal, but first I need to weld line and file it to 1/4 in order to all become right.
A few pics to the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP, very frustrating little problem you have there. In the past I have had to make replacement high pressure pipes, most car brake servicing centers stock 1/4" steel hydraulic pipe.
You could probably braze the crack but be careful to remove all the flux from the inside of the pipe, you don`t want it getting in the injector.
I`m one of those Damn Brits! I had the intelligence to leave that small island a long time ago. :)
Bob
-
Bob, Gentles
High pressure line still leafing.
After brazing, filing... brazing... filing... hammering the pipe tip... snuggling to seat at injector... hammering again... it give a go.
Put diesel in syringe, longer return line, starter cigar at chamber (not lit), 3 or 4 turns of crank and it fired up right way.
Another setback. Return line start to spill everywhere. AND the conic joint still leak a drop, but I'll braze the back of conic seal.
2 pics, and a vid [https://youtu.be/rfZeYHuvdbQ (https://youtu.be/rfZeYHuvdbQ)] for the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Well done VP, The best thing about your video is the big smile on your face! The Deutz runs very well, starts easily and sounds wonderful.
I hope you manage to fix the fuel line drip.
Bob
-
And the same from me, especially the grin!!
Cheers
Stef
-
Bob, Stef, Gentles
After going around and around with the HP line, and braze the back of conic joint at injector, and put new return line (all on trail mode).
It still has the HP line very dented with the years of rust, and telling the truth it will be better to make a smooth new one.
It still sweats at the joints, but I have to give it as operational for now.
And the return line drips a lot. Im questioning it the return to the filter will be best solution.
Lets see!
2 pics and a vid [https://youtu.be/9B3svWRu7AE (https://youtu.be/9B3svWRu7AE)] to the show. The vid is a 2 merged vids.
This run push out 5 nuts from the kart (the wood is know dry)
Cheers
VP
PS: PreChamber must be very clean of diesel to light the fuse, else it flood and doesnt autoignite.
-
This is an awesome looking restoration!!
I am working on an MAH 916 right now and have it just about ready to fire for the first time. I'm running into an issue shimming the injection pump for the proper start time of fuel delivery. When I bought this engine years ago, the pump was off and the shims were in pieces so I have no idea what thickness to even start with.
Would you be willing the measure the thickness of the shims and also the steel washer on the injection pump on your 914? I haven't been able to find any starting spec for this thickness anywhere in the manual. I'd like to start somewhere with say 1 mm of shims then adjust the timing from there. I'm trying to save myself the hassle of starting from 0 and end up installing and removing the pump 30 times while I work my way up in shim thickness. Not to mention dumping diesel everywhere and rebleeding it everytime.
Thanks!
Ian
-
Hi Ian
First things first. put pictures as many as you can!
Shims: My 914 has 3*0,25mm (only after running you can identify the knock - the few more knocking aka too early, the more lacking of power)
Dumping fuel: with injector out, turn crank to TDC (You can put a comparator with stem in bore to measure distance versus fly angle) [couldnt find angle of fire Before TDC]. YOU CAN DO IT WITH VEGETAL OIL FIRST.
Steel washer? where?
Just my thoughts for now.
Cheers
VP
-
My injection pump had a steel washer along with shims behind it but the ring was badly bent and the shim paper falling apart.
Does your pump only have the 3*0.25mm shims between it and the face it mounts on? My flywheel has an F stamped on the rim indicating TDC and the manual states the injection point should be 15 degrees +/- 1 degree.
I'll get some pictures on here soon! This one is staying the natural patina so don't expect flashy paint jobs!
-
Hi Ian, Gentles
Lets see the IP cam lobe bump: go here: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=9555.msg109890#msg109890
As you can see lobe lift is 10mm. Therefore (now go here: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=9555.msg109994#msg109994)
You must see if the travel of plunger is too far (you can take off IP valve [with IP snugged in place] and with the comparator see how much the travel is). If no shims you can eventualy damage pump element and plunger.
And yes all shims are between IP tappet guide face and IP face. Caspici?
I put back all paper shims it had, but if I notice it must be fine tweaked ill make more of 0,25mm gasket paper.
About fancy painting it's just a matter of each country evaluation. Here if I present an engine restored with patina is only a piece of junk.
Remember those engines are low compression, therefore they need starter cigar.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles,
Another tool to the shop. A FIAC compressor from 1988 (turned to nice blue).
Derusted, new paint, new rings from Greece (!!!), new safety valve, new hose connectors... and voilá!
Pic Before and after.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
Next last weekend of July we have the anual craft, culture, and heritage fair at village, therefore I have no time to put the "decent" fuel tank on the German.
So I spoke with chinese and they sent another 1L tank to put on to make the rally.
Take a look how it fits nicely.
2 pics for the show.
Cheers
VP
-
Hope your festival goes well. I would consider a paint job on the plastic tank o make it look as if it is metal or same as th engine. You have done a wonderful job on your German and has been a pleasure to follow the progress and the dedication to making it perfect again. Well done VP!
-
Gentles
As usual first word will be addressed to all members of LEF, that are with me since the beginning, a special thanks.
Some steps back were supported for them, as you all said thing are always this way, and I must embrace things as they show and give my personal touch in order to achieve my goal (this one is for you Bob, with a special hug).
Cobba, another hug for you, just because you can see the aim of my tasks, and comprehend the world is not square. And no, the 1L tank will stay as it is.
Willw, thanks for your appreciation.
Stef, you still want I present a restoration of a Famel Zündapp, isn't it? Forget, its too expensive!
Butch, look at my German, its fancy, isnt it?
Joks done. Lets go to the business!
Gave a long run to the German (+20mn), let it burn till water gets hot, tweaked governor to 1000 rpm - and no leaks. Open crankcase to see if all is ok, and it shows a nice chamber.
See vid here: https://youtu.be/kJzUZHobpiY
Cut elbow from hopper lid and extract remains of iron from threads with high amp weld rod, and handle saw. New paint, and voilá!
Some pics of process.Forgot to make some pics, but you will all understand.
Cheers
VP
-
What a beauty ! You have made the "German" look and sound better than the ever did, very well done VP.
-
+1 Cobbadog, what a beauty! I don`t mind the new fuel tank, it would look better with an original tank but I doubt anyone could supply one. So the best option is for something functional but clearly not original.
I hope the visitors to your festival appreciate how much work, money, talent and effort went into restoring your engine, it is a credit to you, your family and your community. Well done VP
Bob
-
Gentles,
Slowly back on track, Im assembling The German trolley.
Today manage to assemble the king pin, it ends up to be a expensive bit because machinist labour is expensive.
It's perfect, just as I had designed.
Take a look.
Cheers
VP
PS: Bob answer please to my question at my Petter thread.
-
Gentles,
A few more tweaks on the trolley.
Cheers
VP
-
VP, once again your attention to detail is at the top end of perfection and fitting to the quality finish on "The German". Your king pin design is exceptional so much so I will not post what I recently did on a transporter only a description. 2 flat 5mm plates greased in the middle and a 20mm bolt through the lot from axle to cross member of the trolley.
If a pic is required unfortunately cannot obliged because we are on an extended holiday in our caravan until near Christmas. No pics of the toys with me, sorry.
-
Gentles, Cobba
A few more pics of the king pin and axle pivoting with silent block.
Primary paint done.
Silent block is a bit of radiator hose 18mm OD, and 12mm ID. Enjoy!
Cheers
VP
PS: managing to twist the 2 iron bars 40mm*6mm, to attach the pull bar.
-
It's been a little while since I have visited hyere as we are still wondering around our great State towing the caravan. The progress you have made is brilliant as is your design, well done.
look forward to seeing more in the near future.
-
Hi Gentles
Liver issues are getting better, therefore German trolley got a few more tweaks.
King pin is done - Lets see if it hangs all the load or it needs reinforcement.
Today manage to set the rear axcel, it will have a set of silent blocks.
Got to go back to the design sheet in order to alter the anchoring of the axcel suport.
A few pics to joy.
1 - seeing clearance to floor with level.
2 - detail of 2 pair of silent blocks.
3 - adding height to reach level.
4 - kart leveled and height seated.
Cheers
VP
-
Gentles
Cold winter here and things are going slowly.
A few more bits to the German kart. 4 anti vibration blocks for the right weight, and made fancy spacers to level it, with a cross beam to make it solid.
Also buyed a new toy for tractor at village, an off-set disk harrow.
A few pics to enjoy.
Have a happy year.
VP
-
Gentles
Trolley almost done, and the German is already seated on the kart... But silent blocks aint work, because engine has 300+ kgs and rubber is feeling the weight and twisting back to front the axcell. And it will be dangerous.
Therefore, ill change silent blocks for hard wood, in order to give it solid state.
Buyed new toy, a pallet truck. 2nd hand almost new, a good deal.
A few pics to showoff.
Cheers
VP
-
Hi VP,
Happy New Year to you. Its been a while since Ive logged in because Ive been busy restoring a 3hp Buzacott then have been doing some of the many lawn mowers I have in our collection.
While your feeling the cold and snow we are under heat wave conditions with high humidity which I cant cope with too well. So half days of play then some reading up on some things of interest. WE are ab out to hook the caravan up and start doing a lot of kilometers again and see more of our country.
Love your rotary hoe and pallet truck. Many years back I woked sellin g tyres and wheels for forklifts and we would remake the poly urethane tyres by bonding new poly onto the wheels.
Hope the wooden blocks solve the rocking of your trolley so please keep us informed.