Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: veggie on March 27, 2022, 04:42:45 PM
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Earlier this winter we experienced a power outage.
It happened at dinner time and ran for most of the evening during a winter storm with temperatures at -16C.
The house started to cool rapidly.
Wearing my headlamp, I ventured out to the garage, fired up the listeroid, and flipped the transfer switch.
All good, we had power and heat. But one annoying thing was the flickering lights throughout the house.
It also concerned me that damage may occur to sensitive electronics such as the $600 control board in my natural gas furnace.
Here's a short video of the Listeroid running in the dark and powering the house.
Notice the 240 volt AC generator head. (Soon to be changed).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfS4dqnn4_I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfS4dqnn4_I)
I decided to try a different approach.
Driving a DC alternator --> battery bank ---> pure sine inverter --> House
I already had a set of batteries left over from a previous solar project, so I though they could act as a load buffer and a voltage clamp for the alternator/inverter system.
I swapped out the AC generator head for a Delco 25Si heavy duty 50A, 24 volt alternator.
Next step was to build a power module consisting of box, batteries, solar charge controller, pure sine inverter, and safety breakers.
This is what I ended up with.
The idea is that during an outage the Listeroid runs constantly.
Sometimes the house pulls from both the batteries and the alternator, and other times the charging is greater than the house draw.
Overall the system can keep up.
The listeroid can achieve 50A alternator output at the reduced speed of 395 rpm which makes the system very quiet.
Here is a video of the first run where the bank is charging at 20 amps.
The yellow cable from the power module plugs into the generator inlet box to the house transfer switch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxJo6UqwCi0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxJo6UqwCi0)
When not in use, float charging is accomplished with a small 24 volt, 5amp 3 step battery maintainer.
Once the solar charge controller is connected to the 600 watt panel array, the solar charger can take care of keeping the batteries topped.
The Magnum inverter provides split phase, 240 volt AC to the house, just as my AC alternator did.
I realize this is less efficient, but I don't care. I can justify it by not having to replace expensive electronic components.
cheers,
veggie
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Alternately, use LED bulbs with a switch mode power supply (constant DC voltage and current to LEDs in series) in the base.
Edit- I missed the 395 rpm; that's probably a no go for direct AC power without some serious flywheel mass additions that would make the SOM flywheels look lightweight. I like that the inverter can handle bigger peak loads, while the Lister CS just keeps on purring and catches up the batteries later.
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Very nice setup and thanks for the videos. It's one thing to understand what's being described. It's another to see a fantastic installation in all it's glory, and watch it function properly.
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Very nice setup and thanks for the videos. It's one thing to understand what's being described. It's another to see a fantastic installation in all it's glory, and watch it function properly.
Yes, when the unit powered an AC generator, the engine ran at 650 rpm.
All the house lights are LED's but lots of flicker. I was also concerned about sensitive electronics.
When accounting for the power demand of the 50 amp alternator, the load could be achieved with the lister running at 395 rpm (alternator running at 2000 rpm).
So I slowed the engine down to match the load. The engine is running near max load for that speed.
One benefit from this system is that while the house is being fed power, the engine heat dissipated from the radiator fan (1 ft away from the engine) keeps the the insulated garage at a nice 70F when it's -16C (3 Deg F) outside. No need for my garage heater.
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Very nice setup and thanks for the videos. It's one thing to understand what's being described. It's another to see a fantastic installation in all it's glory, and watch it function properly.
Thanks cujet :)
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I tried to evaluate the effect of the rotational speed variation from the pulse of a large displacement single cylinder four cycle engine (AKA Lister).
From my estimations (that's all they are, just estimations), the power pulse and resulting momentary generator RPM change on a lister(oid) with a 3600 rpm AC generator head are considerable.
Lets assume that the engine pulse (or speed drop/increase) is the equivalent to a
momentary "bump" of 2 rpm at the engine. (That's a guess on my part).
It's not really important because what is being tested here is the relationship
between two generator speeds. The comparison between 1800 and 3600 would
stay the same regardless of the exact speed "bump" value.
3500 RPM Generator Head:
ENGINE RPM RATIO GEN. RPM
================================
650 5.53 3600
648 5.53 3583 <---- a change of 17 RPM !
Now lets look at and 1800 rpm head...
ENGINE RPM RATIO GEN. RPM
================================
650 2.77 1800
648 2.77 1794 <---- a change of 6 RPM
*************************************************************************************************
OK, now what if it were a bit more pronounced.
Say on a power stroke the lurch causes a equivalent 2 rpm bump, and on the coasting cycle the target speed drops by 2 rpm.
(Assuming the generator is under load so there is considerable resistance to rotation). The flywheel inertia is attempting to overcome the drag from the Generator head, but there is still some drop in rpm). A total of 4 rpm from power stroke to the end of the coasting cycle.
Because of the belt ratio, the speed change is amplified 5.53 times !
3500 RPM Generator Head: (4 rpm interruption)
ENGINE RPM RATIO GEN. RPM
================================
650 5.53 3600
646 5.53 3583 <---- a change of 116 RPM !
A concerning 116 rpm momentary effect. (Even if it's just for one rotation until the next firing stroke.)
A definite cause for flickering lights and a distorted sine wave pattern.
Now lets look at and 1800 rpm head with the same rotational interruption (4 rpm)...
ENGINE RPM RATIO GEN. RPM
================================
650 2.77 1800
646 2.77 1789 <---- a change of only 11 RPM
So an 1800 rpm head has considerably less rotational interruption due to the smaller speed change ratio of the belt drive.
Hence less voltage change and less light flicker.
I would argue that a 1200 rpm (or even a 900 rpm) head would have considerably less flicker.
In the old days, there were 900 rpm generator heads.
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I have a form of epilepsy from MS and so Listerflicker is an issue for me. I use my Listeroid to power my shop's 2000W of heat lamps. Before I did some work on the flicker, I could not use my shop heat lamps without health and safety problems.
The Lister CS frequency and resulting generator head frequency variation is in itself not the big problem for lighting flicker, based on my experimentation with a custom AVR on the ST-3.
Instead it is the poor voltage regulation resulting from rpm variation; slowest speed during compression, fastest during power stroke. With an AC voltage peak filter on a step down transformer, I was able to see this as a 5Hz hump variation visible on oscilloscope. Another forum member used it on his unit with SOM flywheels and saw a similar amplitude and frequency pattern, though without a digital oscilloscope it was very hard for him to see this 5 Hz signal representing AC peak voltage variation over time.
By messing with the RC time constant used for measuring the AC peak voltage for my custom AVR, and using mains voltage (not harmonic) to have more power during the compression stroke, I was able to match the performance of the SOM flywheels. For 100W bulbs or bigger, that good enough for me to use. One of the problems is that the very large inductance of the 4 rotor coils of the ST-3 causes a delay in response to changes in excitation current/voltage. So even though excitation is cut off by my AVR during the compression stroke as voltage rises too high, it continues to rise with no further excitation added (the inductance stores and gives back the energy). This could be electronically compensated, by either partially shorting the excitation coils, or clipping the peaks of the AC waveform. Both waste power, though the AC waveform peak clipping could be captured into a capacitor bank to be used for subsequent excitation. This would be pretty complicated, and there is little market for such a sophisticated ($) AVR for very low speed engines, so I didn't try to tackle it once my own flicker reduction efforts were sufficient for my using 250W heat lamp bulbs for a few hours at a time.
It is true that frequency variation alone might be noticeable by some, but my opinion is that mostly, it is voltage variation caused by rpm variation of the engine. For my 650 rpm CS 6/1, the AC voltage peak has a 5 Hz hump; drops low during compression, then goes up after power stroke and sags, repeat.
While some of my older posts seem to have vanished, this old thread on the flicker issue might be helpful for newbies:
https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=2572.msg30553#msg30553
As for LED bulbs- they will be no help for flicker unless the bulb is the type with a switching AC to DC converter/regulator. Many currently made LED bulbs only rectify the AC to a small capacitor, with a linear DC current limiter, and they will flicker as bad or worse than incandescent bulbs since the LED's have no filament thermal persistence as incandescent bulbs do, increasingly for higher wattages. You can generally confirm the presence of a SMPS type LED bulb by using an AM regenerative tuner type radio tuned between stations near the bulb on and off. If you hear some new noises when on, yep, it's a switcher type bulb.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
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Very nice Build, Neat and orderly.
I'm looking to build a similar system to work with my solar panel system as well. It looks like you are using the mppt75 charge controller from you single wire alternator, is that correct? Did you install a two conductor lug on your single terminal of your alternator? When you integrate the solar system, I assume it will have it's own charge controller tied to the same set of batteries. Which Magnum inverter did you use?
Sorry for all the questions, kept pausing the video and tried to understand how it was all wired together.
Thanks
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Very nice Build, Neat and orderly.
I'm looking to build a similar system to work with my solar panel system as well. It looks like you are using the mppt75 charge controller from you single wire alternator, is that correct? Did you install a two conductor lug on your single terminal of your alternator? When you integrate the solar system, I assume it will have it's own charge controller tied to the same set of batteries. Which Magnum inverter did you use?
Sorry for all the questions, kept pausing the video and tried to understand how it was all wired together.
Thanks
Hi,
The 50A alternator is wired directly to the batteries and the uses the voltage regulator in the alternator to control current/voltage when the engine is running.
The "Intronix Power" 25A, 24 volt solar charge controller (CC) is not connected to the alternator in any way.
Solar panels connect to the input of the CC and the the output of the CC is wired directly to the battery posts.
So, two separate charging systems connected to the same battery.
good luck with your system build,
veggie
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Gotcha, Makes perfect sense. I like the simplicity of that design. Thanks Veggie !
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The 50A alternator is wired directly to the batteries and the uses the voltage regulator in the alternator to control current/voltage when the engine is running.
The "Intronix Power" 25A, 24 volt solar charge controller (CC) is not connected to the alternator in any way.
Solar panels connect to the input of the CC and the the output of the CC is wired directly to the battery posts.
So, two separate charging systems connected to the same battery.
good luck with your system build,
veggie
[/quote]
Interesting. I have a cheapie 12v solar system with a couple of panels, an MPPT controller, and a bunch of lead-acids. When I run the genset, I use its 12VDC wiring to charge the batteries as well - cos, why not
I wonder if this is feasible with a modern system - lLiFePo, batteries, Victron inverter/charge controller, panels etc?
Either one of the petrol gensets, or the CS & Chinese ST-clone head will make horrible choppy 230 VAC which some appliances don't like. I was considering just buying a 230VAC-24VDC decent-sized battery charger suitable for use with LiFePos and attaching it direct to battery bank for those occasions when it's overcast for days at a time
Thoughts? Cheers
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mikenash,
Engine/Generator --> Battery Charger --> Battery Bank --> Inverter --> Clean Power
Should work.
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mikenash,
Engine/Generator --> Battery Charger --> Battery Bank --> Inverter --> Clean Power
Should work.
I would hope so, yes. I'm just playing with a few hundred watts of solar and a few a/h of lead-acid right now and I've been a bit precious about the LiFePos - but they're getting cheaper & they're coming as a unit with a smart BMS these days . . . I guess we'll see. Cheers
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lLiFePo, batteries with the built in BMS are the way to go. Curious what brand you are using. I acquired several Enerdel Lithium packs, same used in the "Think" car. Of course no BMS so I'm adding my own and hoping to build my own Power Wall with them.
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This setup is really awesome. It takes the incredible capability of the Listeroid and couples it with modern technology. Really, the only thing it gives up is the simplicity of a belt drive generator head that directly powers a home. However I'm 100% convinced the benefits outweigh the downsides. I'd even bet overall system efficiency can be pretty darn good.
A combined heat and power setup like that could be incredible. And you can burn any kind of oil you want!
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Thanks Cujet,
The weak point at the moment is the batteries. They are 9 years old.
They hold a charge and perform well (about 85% of their original performance), but their days are numbered.
I considered switching to IiFePo but I'm not sure if an alternator can charge them.
Perhaps the BMS takes care of that problem. I will need to do more research as the time gets closer.
cheers
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Regarding you specific question, Veggie, as long as the alternator is set to charge at a normal wet lead battery voltage, you should be able to use LFP batteries without any change. The BMS will disconnect charging once the cells are full, and will disconnect the load when the cells get too low. A BMS failure has resulted in battery destruction.
DIYsolarforum is a good place to watch for the best deals/reviews on lithium batteries. I think the waiting game is a winner. There have been plenty of issues with premature failures of lithium cells, and both price and performance keep improving each year. About $500 for a 12V. 100AH battery, twice that for 24V, 100AH.
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Interesting Bruce,
$1000 for a 100 AMP 24 volt LFP ( or $2000 for 200 amps comparable to my current setup)
To replace my four 225 amp lead acid deep cycles, the total cost would be $800.
A huge price difference for 200 amp batteries.
Granted, a proper analysis would also include expected cycles over the life of both packs.
veggie
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Yes, and you may be able to use the 100AH, since you can use them to near full capacity.
The situation is likely to improve by the time your existing one's are done.
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$1000 for a 100 AMP 24 volt LFP ( or $2000 for 200 amps comparable to my current setup)
To replace my four 225 amp lead acid deep cycles, the total cost would be $800.
A huge price difference for 200 amp batteries.
I will have to look that price up, that seems too high. Just checked, LiFePO4 prismatic cells are still reasonably priced if you make your own battery bank. I'm seeing $108 ea for 280AH cells.
Even so, 100AH LiFePO4 is roughly equal to 200AH Pb-acid. As the depth of discharge limits on PB batteries is pretty severe.
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Yes, it's cheaper to buy your own cells, cheaper yet if you get seconds or derated used cells.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4pN4DVPOcY
The price I gave is an estimate for a good priced, prebuilt 100AH 12V battery.
Will Prouse keeps reviewing cells, BMS units, prebuilt batteries, rack mount setups.
https://www.youtube.com/c/WillProwse
While a young enthusiast, and thus optimistic on new technology reliability and longevity, his reviews and material are technically competent.
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Very neat looking research facility
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After scouring the Web regarding light flicker with generators, I can see that this is a VERY common issue.
As BruceM noted, the majority of these issues are from using LED lights which are very sensitive to tiny changes in supply frequency.
Regarding engine speed and the number of cylinders, I did not seem to matter.
I found many articles where 3600 rpm screamers were still causing lights to flicker. But again, most cases were when the user had LED bulbs installed.
In other examples, 2 and 3 cylinder Kubota's were involved in flickering lights.
So, before you go changing voltage regulators, generator heads, and engine speeds, first try swapping out LED's for standard incandescent bulbs.
Question:
What about appliances such as modern gas furnaces with low voltage DC control boards, or Televisions and Computers?
Are most of these appliances immune to high frequency fluctuations in Hz because they rectify to DC and their DC voltage regulators can smooth out the ripple ?
Note: What I mean by high frequency fluctuations in Hz is the frequency bouncing between say 58hz and 61hz 5 times per second due to 650 rpm Lister power strokes.
Perhaps enough to mess up an LED, but does it matter to appliances with DC control boards?
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most of the appliances, tv's and such have switch mode power supplies that can take in a wide variety of voltages. they then rectify, chop up and transform to some higher voltage, transform and rectify to whatever voltage(s) their design calls for, so unless the incoming waveform is outside what they have designed to accept, they do a good job of making it work for their uses.
if i had an issue with flicker, i might consider strapping on an alternator, and a battery, and then feed a small inverter, large enough to cover my lighting and sensitive to flicker loads.
or i might use a step down transformer to bring the st head voltage down to something in the 12 or 24volt nominal range (rectified) and feed that into an inverter to output to my flicker sensitive loads.
another option would be to see if i could feed the st power into a ups such as an old apc unit, the output of which is steady clean pure sine wave that could certainly power any flicker sensitive loads.
all of these options have their level of complication, and their attendant loss of efficiency, but some are good enough to consider. taking a 10% hit in efficiency on relative light loads, such as lighting might not really be much to be concerned with? certainly less than taking the same 10% hit on heavier loads?
i mean i wouldn't think of trying to do such a system for motor loads, or resistive loads, that generally have no issues with flicker.
all this based on my wanting or having to use a single cylinder and st head,
if i were to design a unit based on the flicker issues, i might start with a clean sheet approach and maybe start out with a different approach to the problem all together.
bob g
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Hey Veggie, Incandescent bulbs have heat persistence of the tungsten elements- more with higher wattage as its thicker wire. This is why larger wattage incandescent bulbs have less flicker. My mains and fast reacting AVR are OK on 250 watt incandescent heat lamps but 60 watt incandescent bulbs are still bothersome to me.
Some LED bulbs have a regulated switching power supply in the base which will eliminate flicker IF there is adequate capacitance to store some excess energy to ride through the lows; thus some electronic persistence as there is virtually no persistence of the LEDs. The problem is that the space is so tight that adding capacitance is hard to do. So what we mostly get are minimalist LED bulb electronics designs that work adequately on grid power or inverters but have visible flicker on generator power.
I found some LED bulbs with SMPS in the base (I took them apart.) with full SMPS that operate well on my 120VDC (126 to 146VDC). I suspect they would not show any flicker on generator power. I didn't use them as I couldn't tolerate the quality of light or the radiated emissions. Alas, I just looked and cannot find them in my shop. I think it was an older Phillips design. Avoid any LED bulb which is marketed as "dimmer compatible" for generator power as that is going to be a flicker monster.
With a bit of effort in finding a model of LED bulb with a true SMPS in the base, it should pretty much eliminate the flicker on generator problem for those who tolerate the unnatural light spectrum of glowing phosphor (white LEDs are really miniature fluorescent lights; they have a dab of phosphor over a UV LED.
Bob, I concur, starting from scratch is the best way. Much efficiency, simplicity, and reduced home power EMI can be gained by having a single high quality SMPS for providing regulated DC to all home/office lighting fixtures. You can even use some of the stock cheapo LED bulbs; some will often operate on say 160VDC or other DC voltage. This gets you the advantage of eliminating regulating circuitry in bulbs, a common failure point, and allows for the best energy efficiency.
A couple companies in the US promote such systems for commercial/office lighting systems, but I don't think its really caught on.
I expect most LED bulb power electronics are operating below 75% efficiency, and have 0.6 or below power factor. The single regulated DC supply for all lighting addresses approach that, and of course would also eliminate generator flicker.