Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: Yellownev on November 27, 2021, 08:52:40 PM

Title: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Yellownev on November 27, 2021, 08:52:40 PM
Please excuse my terminology and somewhat blunt approach to asking for help but here goes.

I've a 16/2 in my canal boat that was marinised for the boat and it had run very sweet for the last 10 years ( about 2000 hours on it) Recently cruising along the canal I noted smoke coming from the crankcase breather and a distinct 'knock' - never heard before. On advice from the people who put the engine in the boat i got access to the engine via the crankcase 'door' and under one cylinder these were pieces of metal, small  - on showing this to the installer they suggested it was the big end shell bearing.

On that side I can introduce same 'knock' by grabbing the bottom of the conrod and feeling some movement which i assume means the big end 'shell bearing' has failed. i suspect the smoke was the bearing heating up during its failure. I may be to blame for this as I had not completely filled the engine to the top mark on the dipstck   -I assume therefore the bearing has run dry and hot hence the smoke and bearing failure ?

The same engineer suggested unbolting the conrod and checking for wear/damage with a view to replacing the bearing. Now I have seen there are different thicknesses of replacement bearings shells to ( I assume) account for wear such as I may have. He suggested this should be an easy thing to do and check... he's experienced I am not

My questions to the enlightened is ..... is is a relatively simple thing to unbolt the conrod via the open side of the crankcase. Then is it a matter of checking the surface as well as measurements of the shaft the conrod bearing clamps to. If there is not real wear replace the shell bearing with like for like .... if there is wear replacing the shell bearing with one to compensate for the wear?

Obviously if the crankshaft surface is damaged too badly i expect that it is the crankshaft out to have it build up and turned back to spec?

Sorry if my questions are basic and contain incorrect assumptions and or terminology. I'm struggling to get anyone to take the work on and I may have to get my own spanners out .... hence the questions ?

Any observations/experience or feedback gratefully received

Nev


Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Powdermonkey on November 30, 2021, 12:17:46 AM
Hello Nev,

Simple, yes.  Easy?  Meh.  Not easy.  But not hard either.  Firstly, my engines have had a bit of a "spacer" located between the connecting rod and the cap.  This spacer (or series of spacers) sets the clearance between the "big end" and the shaft. 

I did the math with the engine disassembled.  IF I recall correctly, you're wanting 0.0015" inch of clearance for every inch of diameter of your shaft.  My 30/2 was set up with ~ 0.004" of clearance on both connecting rods.

Now, the next part:  Being that your engine is still together, you're going to want a different way to measure your clearance.  You need to go to a "good" auto parts store and get yourself a hold of some "Plasti-gauge".  You're looking for some that's accurate in the 0.002"-0.010" range.  Follow the directions, and check out your current clearance.  Adjust as necessary.  PM me if you need more assistance.
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Yellownev on December 02, 2021, 08:39:36 PM
Hi, Thanks for taking the time to respond to my question - I've sent a PM

Regards

Nev
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: 38ac on December 02, 2021, 10:55:36 PM
Adding to the other reply if you did indeed melt the bearing it is imperative that you clean the crankcase. Personally I would also pull the oil pump and check it for debris  and flush the lines. The Lister technical data specs the  clearances with new parts at .0025"- .003" with allowable wear .003". So, clearance could be as large as .006" and be within the spec to run it,  however I would never let one out of the shop with that much clearance.
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: listard-jp2 on December 03, 2021, 11:43:55 AM

OP, is that a genuine Lister CS 16/2 engine you have in your canal boat?

Or is something more like this (and of Indian origin)?

https://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Publicity.html
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Yellownev on December 03, 2021, 03:39:13 PM
Adding to the other reply if you did indeed melt the bearing it is imperative that you clean the crankcase. Personally I would also pull the oil pump and check it for debris  and flush the lines. The Lister technical data specs the  clearances with new parts at .0025"- .003" with allowable wear .003". So, clearance could be as large as .006" and be within the spec to run it,  however I would never let one out of the shop with that much clearance.

Many thanks for the extra I formation and adviceÖ. All very useful. Thank you for taking the time to post.
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Yellownev on December 03, 2021, 03:41:45 PM

OP, is that a genuine Lister CS 16/2 engine you have in your canal boat?

Or is something more like this (and of Indian origin)?

https://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Publicity.html

Ö.. it is that actual engine ( and boat) in the link. I purchased Tonys boat back in 2012. The engine has run very sweetly with many positive comments until this recent episode.. many thanks for the link as Iíve not read that before.
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: listard-jp2 on December 03, 2021, 05:53:15 PM
The same engineer suggested unbolting the conrod and checking for wear/damage with a view to replacing the bearing. Now I have seen there are different thicknesses of replacement bearings shells to ( I assume) account for wear such as I may have. He suggested this should be an easy thing to do and check... he's experienced I am not

As your engine is relatively new, the big end journals should still be on standard size, and if your lucky and caught it soon enough. You may be able to get away with just replacing the big end shell bearings (after polishing the big end journals).

However the condition of the big end journals is going to determine if this is a viable solution. If they are scored you may end up needing a crank grind on the big end journals.

Finally I would suggest replacing the big end shell bearings on the other cylinder whilst your in there.


My questions to the enlightened is ..... is is a relatively simple thing to unbolt the conrod via the open side of the crankcase.


Yes, I have done this myself on numerous occasions, however as your engine is installed in a narrow boat, you will not find it particularly easy.

Then is it a matter of checking the surface as well as measurements of the shaft the conrod bearing clamps to. If there is not real wear replace the shell bearing with like for like ....


Yes and Yes, Standard journal size would be 2.4975/2.498" if we were dealing with a genuine Lister CS engine, but more importantly is ovality of the journal. More that 0.002" out of round and your into regrind territory.


If there is wear replacing the shell bearing with one to compensate for the wear?

Yes, upto 0.0060" undersize. However, be sure to specify a Lead / Indium bearing for the top half bearing shell, because if you fit a white metal version you will knock out he big end in no time.


Obviously if the crankshaft surface is damaged too badly i expect that it is the crankshaft out to have it build up and turned back to spec?


It will be ground to the undersize (in 0.010" increments) at which the journal cleans up at.

Why not take it back to Redshaw's for some corrective surgery (that is if your not to far away)

Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Yellownev on December 04, 2021, 10:25:18 PM
Many thanks Listard for your very helpful and detailed reply picking up the issues I asked question on. I will read through a few times to ensure I understand them fully. The last question on taking Percy back to Paul & Tony Redshaw its location sadly too far away, worst case could be the engine going leaving the boat behind !

I'll update but it may be a while  !
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: cujet on January 18, 2022, 03:34:43 AM
Any updates?

One thing I don't see mentioned is the connecting rod shims. To a small extent, removal of shims can "tighten" a new bearing a little, to fit a very slightly worn crankshaft a little better.

Put another way, simply assembling the connecting rod with new bearings and no shims under the rod cap could result in insufficient bearing to journal clearance.

This is one nice way these engines can be kept operational with minimal work.
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Yellownev on January 18, 2022, 08:32:08 AM
Hi Cujet et al,

Nothing to report sadly as the cold weather and a few health issues have kept me away from the boat and the engine.

Thank you for the advice re the shims and the option of removal to possibly account for wear. I presume the Plastiguard tolerance check would be the guide to correct clearance along with a micrometer measurement. I have asked a boat engineer to come take a look but they are very busy as canal boats seem to have attracted a lot of purchase interest over the last couple of years as people stay local or realise their dreams sooner than planned.

If he does not show up soon it will be me and my spannerís ( wrenches) and your guidance. Itís a race of the engineer or the warmer weather !

Thanks for following up on my initial ask for guidance.

Take care

Nev
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: cujet on January 19, 2022, 02:45:13 PM
I'll bet we can guide you through the job. Post some high resolution pictures of the bearing shells, the crank journal and the con-rod, with the shims currently installed. With proper supplies, it's an afternoon's job.

I may be possible that with appropriate care, cleaning and effort, the crank may clean up and be dimensionally OK, and the new rod bearing can be made to work properly. I have heard of this before, with excellent results. Although I've not had it happen to my engines.

I would also check the other rod bearing. If one let go, maybe the other is not far behind.

EDIT: It's not uncommon to occasionally replace rod bearings on some engines (think BMW six cylinders) and I'd consider it normal maintenance.
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Yellownev on February 13, 2022, 09:45:41 PM
Hi all,

Not sorted yet as an engineer I contacted got in touch and is visiting a week on Tuesday to have a look ( and a feel) so for now Iíve deferred until an expert gets a look. I am looking to source gaskets for the crankcase door and the water elbows from the cylinders Ö Iíve dropped a message to Stationary engine parts in the hope they can sell me them or source them.

Sorry itís not a progressive update and thanks for  engagement so far.

Iíll update when the engineer has had a look !

Thanks again

Nev
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: cujet on February 16, 2022, 11:10:04 PM
You may not have to pull the cylinder. I suggest cleaning up the journal and measuring first.
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Yellownev on February 22, 2022, 09:23:52 PM
Well it looks like Iíll be having a go as the engineer put me off Ö..

Iíve a question before ĎI go iní what will be the nut size that Iíll need to removeÖ.. I ask as Iím unsure if the nuts are imperial or whitworthÖ. Iíve read around and my understanding  is whitworth were Ď imperialí in measurement but a spanner/socket  size up on imperial as the size is the bolt not the nut so 3/8 whitworth would need a 1/2 inch socket ? I do hope Iím not over thinking this ?

One other thought what is the torque setting if there is one for the cap nuts ?

I did say at the off Iím on a learning curve so please stick with me if you can !

Nev
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Powdermonkey on February 25, 2022, 03:37:59 AM
Nev,

I just found a source to reweld and regrind DIESEL crankshafts.  Key words: Diesel crankshaft.  Nobody in MY area will touch a regrind, let alone a reweld on a diesel crankshaft. 

Hillcrestcamshaft.com
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Yellownev on February 25, 2022, 10:25:11 PM
Nev,

I just found a source to reweld and regrind DIESEL crankshafts.  Key words: Diesel crankshaft.  Nobody in MY area will touch a regrind, let alone a reweld on a diesel crankshaft. 

Hillcrestcamshaft.com

Hi,

I know of a place in the UK who can/will regrind the journals but I'm hoping not to have to have that level of intrusion, thanks for the comment.
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: cujet on February 26, 2022, 04:22:15 PM
I'm not sure of the nut size at the moment. All of my lister spares are in storage at the airport. Maybe if I get out there I'll have a look. 

Found an old manual. The connecting rod nut is 1/2 Witworth. The bearing clearance should not exceed 0.003 inches. I did not see a listed torque. The manual I have simply states:

"This interference or 'nip' is measured by placing the bearing in the connecting rod, tightening both bolts to the normal extent, then slackening one bolt only and measuring the corresponding gap in the rod at the parting line. This gap should be between 0.004" and 0.006". All this does is keep a con-rod cap from crushing the bearings.

So, that's pretty simple, "if" the gap is 0.015" then simply install shims to bring the gap within spec. Tighten the nut and install cotter pin.

The nuts have cotter pins, so the torque is generally to a spec (which I don't have at the moment) then "to the next hole", then insert the cotter pin.

As always, a simple look at the bearing shells will show a lubrication hole that must be aligned. And don't install the "dipper" so tight that it rubs the crankshaft!
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: cujet on February 26, 2022, 04:51:46 PM
Just a quick note about the connecting rod cap "gap" (with just one bolt tight). Maybe this exists as a way to "tighten up" a bearing with a bit too much clearance. A really nice feature when you need a running engine now!
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: cujet on February 26, 2022, 04:52:51 PM
Again, if I go out to the airport, I'll take a few pics. That should help A LOT.
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Yellownev on February 26, 2022, 09:49:30 PM
Thatís a great amount of helpful information I really do appreciate it. Iíll digest it and if you are able to get a photo to further explain it even better. Many thanks for taking the time to reply in such a comprehensive way. Take care.
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: cujet on February 27, 2022, 11:28:24 PM
I took a picture of a spare (damaged during manufacture) Listeroid connecting rod I had at the airport. I tried to make it contain all the necessary information in one picture.

1) The 2 (two) lube holes on the top bearing shell
2) The "dipper" hole on the bottom that holds the bearings from rotating (where the drill bit is) And why you must be careful not to tighten the dipper against the crankshaft
3) Showing a 13/16th's wrench that fits the nuts
4) The lower bearing shell with just one hole
5) How the "nip" is measured, with a feeler gauge on the left side of this pic (remember the bearings must be installed)
6) I still have not found a torque value for the connecting rod bolts/nuts

And so on. Hope it helps. It's really simple, and the use of just a little care will give great results.
I have hope your crankshaft will be fine with some careful cleanup of old bearing material.

https://i.imgur.com/JCtm2Kn.jpg

(https://i.imgur.com/JCtm2Kn.jpg)
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: mike90045 on February 28, 2022, 02:14:09 AM
I don't think castle nuts / cotter pins, have a torque value, the cotter pin keeps the nut in place to maintain the required gap ?
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: cujet on February 28, 2022, 03:00:10 AM
The nuts must be tightened properly! The stress on connecting rod bolts is cyclic and they will eventually fail, "IF" not tightened to a certain level of stretch.

Put another way, once the bolt stretches and clamps the 2 pieces together, the bolt never feels any additional force, as the running loads are lower than the stretch force.
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: mike90045 on February 28, 2022, 06:40:36 AM
The nuts must be tightened properly! The stress on connecting rod bolts is cyclic and they will eventually fail, "IF" not tightened to a certain level of stretch.

Put another way, once the bolt stretches and clamps the 2 pieces together, the bolt never feels any additional force, as the running loads are lower than the stretch force.

Thank you, I didn't know.  I was going to treat them like the castle nuts on the tractor wheels.  So far, I've not had any issues needing to open them up
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: 38ac on February 28, 2022, 11:28:57 AM
The bolts and nuts on MOST Listeroid are Whitworth pattern although I have seen a couple that were a hodgepodge of whatever they found in the dirt.  Fuel lines are metric,  some other parts like plugs are odd ball. While it's nice to have a set of Whitworth tools you can get along fine with standard fractional and metric tools sets and you will always need a couple adjustable wrenches.

A note about big end bearings. India machine tolorances are quite large however. I have never ran into an India rod, india bearing combination that required shims to correct too much crush. The inserts will be flush with the cap and rod. However shims may be needed to increase bearing clearances. If you run into a situation like that it is imperative that the shims are large enough toward the crankshaft to get between the inserts without being so long as to contact tbe crankshaft.
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: cujet on February 28, 2022, 10:05:38 PM
38ac, I figured you'd have a torque spec. In any case, thanks for the good information!!!!

I honestly do not recall using any shims on my engine. But that was 15 years ago.
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: 38ac on March 01, 2022, 02:28:01 AM
Any torque spec is pretty much useless unkess one plans to leave out the cotter pins.  I bring them to not quite tight and study the slot to hole relationship and advance the nuts accordingly. A person without the feel for that could torque them to 75% of the value listed in a standard torque table and advance from there.
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Yellownev on March 01, 2022, 05:02:48 PM
First off many thanks Mr Cujet for taking the time to go and take the picture and add the explanation - priceless for me to work with. Then thanks to all the other contributors to date. I'll let you know how I get on in the next  week or so. Again a great group of helpful friendly people, take care.

Nev 
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: cujet on March 01, 2022, 10:34:19 PM
Take the cap off, and take some pictures!


Remember, the cap probably only goes on one way, so it might be a good idea to put a center-punch mark on the rod and cap to ensure correct assembly.
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Yellownev on April 20, 2022, 12:27:05 AM
Hi,

Iíve not forgotten youÖ. But been poorly had the Covid and some other med changes meant I wasnít in the right place to be at the boat.

Couple of weeks ago I did get over and got the cap off and old bearings out. Some superficial scratches to the journal that Iíve just about polished out. Now the buggerÖ. I ordered standard size  shells in ignorance and on inspecting what came out they were already over size no doubt to compensate for some turning of the crankshaft before the engine was marinised. So Iím now waiting for a set of the same ( as they were the largest I can fit ) my hope is as they were shimmed so I can reduce or remove the shims to get the required fit and clearance. I think this point was made earlier in the thread.

One question would you normally lube the new bearings with engine assembly lube or just the same oil that goes in the engine ?

As and when the new shells arrive and I am able Iíll update again. Thanks for all the advice so far.

As a ps rightly or wrongly I used my torque wrench to undo the nuts and it needed to be at 90nm to get them off ?

Take care and thanks again
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: 38ac on April 20, 2022, 11:15:52 AM
The India engines as shipped usually have one shim each side. The shims are usually .003" Your situation is different as the crank has been ground since it left India and could have been sized with or without shims.
 There are sticky assembly lubes around and any of them do a good job but they are not necessary on a CS.  A bit of oil works while you are asssembling and prior to starting you simply remove the crankcase door and give the rods and mains a squirt of oil.  A problem with India twins, and singles is miss marked dip sticks. Be sure to confirm proper oil level on the rod dippers and remark the dip stick if needed.
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Yellownev on April 22, 2022, 09:32:58 PM
The India engines as shipped usually have one shim each side. The shims are usually .003" Your situation is different as the crank has been ground since it left India and could have been sized with or without shims.
 There are sticky assembly lubes around and any of them do a good job but they are not necessary on a CS.  A bit of oil works while you are asssembling and prior to starting you simply remove the crankcase door and give the rods and mains a squirt of oil.  A problem with India twins, and singles is miss marked dip sticks. Be sure to confirm proper oil level on the rod dippers and remark the dip stick if needed.

Hi thanks for the reply and further advice. When I removed the cap it had .003 shims on the crankcase door side and .00145 on the other side? I suspect as you say the dipstick was marked very conservatively. When I refill it I'll re mark it - what level should i fill to with respect to the rod dippers?

Kind regards

 
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Powdermonkey on April 22, 2022, 11:38:36 PM
The Lister manuals show a picture.  Not any "measurements" associated.  Basically, you want the oil level NO HIGHER than the bottom of the connecting rod end cap.  The dipper can be fully submerged. 
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Hugh Conway on April 23, 2022, 05:18:08 AM
Re: oil level dipstick..
I think the dipstick is not relevant. Oil level in a Lister and most listeroids is determined by the top reservoir being full, as it is automatically via the oil pump. The oil quantity in the lower sump should be about 1/2' below the removable cover in the lower sump.
I have never used the dipstick in my Listeroid. A real Dursley does not have a dipstick.....not necessary. Oil can never touch the con rod end cap, as that level is determined by the weir of the upper sump.
Dipper should be installed as a blade, not sideways, and needs to clear the bottom of the upper sump.
Cheers
Hugh
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: 38ac on April 23, 2022, 12:43:46 PM
Hugh, while you are correct for a single with two sumps the India twins have one sump. The mains get oil from the pump and the rods, and cam are oiled via splash from the dippers. Thus the  sump level is critical for proper oiling. The India twins suffer for thus when used in a portable application as a small amount of tilt means one rod cap is submerged and the other dipper is out of the oil. The crankcase webbing prevents much crossover oiling from side to side. I suspect that the OPs crank bearing woes could be traced back to this. I have seen it twice in engines through my shop.
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Yellownev on April 23, 2022, 01:05:09 PM
Hugh, while you are correct for a single with two sumps the India twins have one sump. The mains get oil from the pump and the rods, and cam are oiled via splash from the dippers. Thus the  sump level is critical for proper oiling. The India twins suffer for thus when used in a portable application as a small amount of tilt means one rod cap is submerged and the other dipper is out of the oil. The crankcase webbing prevents much crossover oiling from side to side. I suspect that the OPs crank bearing woes could be traced back to this. I have seen it twice in engines through my shop.

My engine is in a canal boat so subject to the risks cited above of a portable install. Iíll certainly be more aware of the oil level as Iíll be able to precisely see what amount is needed and to what level on the dip stick when I refill. Iím not clear on why itís a bad thing for the rod cap itself ( and therefore the bearing) to be in the oilÖ. Thanks again for your advice and experience it is very valuable to me
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Hugh Conway on April 23, 2022, 05:25:13 PM
Yellonev & 38AC
Thanks for that clarification, I'm only familiar with the singles, and had no idea of the internal layout of the twins.
Always something new to learn, even on these old-time machines!
Cheers
Hugh
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: Yellownev on June 12, 2022, 09:44:50 PM
Hi, to complete the original call for help, which was answered admirably, thank you - the engine is now back up and running.

I was able to polish out some light scoring of the journal and replaced the bearings using plastigauge to check the clearance which was 3 thou with 6 thou shims fitted both sides.

I torqued up the nuts to 90nm which was what I calculated was their setting when I removed them. I needed an extra small movement to get the holes lined up for the split pins.

The whitworth spanners ( wrenches) and sockets i brought were very useful.

I was able to double check the oil dip stick settings and it was good just at the bottom of the caps with the dippers totally immersed.

The whole sump was cleaned out as was the strainer and the magnet at the end of it ( nothing on it ) I primed the oil pump and checked it operation on running

The biggest challenge was knowledge, confidence and confined space.... the latter manageable despite being in the small engine room on my canal boat.

I now have the confidence to clean out the sump at the required hours ( albeit necessitated draining 10 litres of coolant, removing the starter, alternator and water pump. All no doubt meat and drink to you engineers out there but for this novice a challenge of recording everything and taking a lot of time to double check everything.

Pleasingly the engine fired first turn of the key and settled with not noise to its normal tick over which I let run for the first hour. We then did a small cruise keeping the revs to tick over most of the time.

A huge thanks to all who gave concise common sense advice and guidance and have stayed with me over my ( extended) learning for this work. I feel I know so much more about my engine thanks to your support and encouragement. Sincere thanks, virtual pints all around - sorry warm brown English beer I'm afraid !!
Title: Re: Big end wear or damage
Post by: cujet on July 30, 2022, 11:12:09 PM
Good Job! How about a new video of the engine in operation.