Lister Engine Forum
How to / DIY => Engines => Topic started by: hotater on August 19, 2006, 05:02:59 PM
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Sorry to start a new thread but this one is more to show the pictures.
I've posted a few at --http://community.webshots.com/photo/2895406460028237237xekcGu
That's were they start, anyhow.
The best place to mount my engine is very near the well head. As can be seen by the pictures I ran into a LOT of problems digging a hole. The well head end is at least eight feet thick. I broke off the overhang of the well plug and probed as far as eight feet down and found nothing but a shaft of concrete. It's said to be 12 yards!
I tied in re-bar in drilled holes in this plug and used a concrete binder goo to help bond the new to the old.
As it turned out the engine base is 2700 pounds of dry weight QuickCrete and it'll take a hundred pounds of grout to finish it.
I'll let it sit for a week or more and work on the engine and fuel/cooling and muffler for a while. I'm READY for a rest!!
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Just reviewed the pics. A rest to say the least. Thats one hell of a mount.
In the last pic your say your leaving room for grout. Apparently your not mounting the engine directly to the frame shown in the pic, or am I missing something?
Thanks, Geno
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Geno---
The engine will mount directly on the frame, but the top couple of inches of the frame will be grouted in. When I pour the grout the 1/2" threaded holes will have bolts in them with plastic thread protectors on the bottom so I have bolt clearance under the holes. The grout will be poured around the 3/4" mounting bolts, too.
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I got it. Its just different in that the frame is in the concrete and grout not on it.
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Exactly right. I decided to make steel a part of the concrete foundation and then more steel or wood or a bare engine could be bolted to it OR something could be welded to it, if needed.
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Hotater
You must have unruley beast. my 6.5 Metro sets on two 6 by 6 on top of the ground . can set a cup of coffe on top of it and set there.Two feet from it you can't feel it. Now my 10/1 is another story at 1,000rpm you canfeel it 40 feet away. But at 750 rpm it runs smooth.and it will fully load a 5,000 generator
bat
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Cranking my engine while sitting on two 6x6s would mean it took the crank handle with it when it left!!!
ONE revolution would have been the beginning of a terrible wreck.
I'm wondering if mine would break that coffee cup from acceleration or from it falling back to earth..... ???
I'm CONVINCED the instructions given by Lister for mounting these engines were not to make them 'unhandy to move around'. The one ton of concrete specified and emphatic instructions for stress-free, but absolutely stable mount (shims and grout) was for re-inforcement of the crankcase to make the crankshaft rotate without ANY flex or vibration. When you compare the moving weight of piston and rod and the massive weights swinging on the ends to the relatively light weight crankcase on a narrow footing, it NEEDS something to deaden the bearing wrecking vibration.
I think that goes for the smooth runners as well as the joggers.
I now HAVE a foundation, but primarily because the owners of the property believe as I do....there IS a Lister-driven generator in this property's future for a LONG time to come. It's a sensible and economic solution to a very expensive problem.
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hotater
My 10/1 is about like that. It's on 4 by 8 I beam 1/4 in web on top of two 8 in square locust post 10 foot long buried in the ground and still vibrates 30 feet from it . I've changed pulleys on it and derated it to 7 1/2 hp runs smooth now.
bat
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hey hotater:
is it hard yet :)
had to ask!
bob g
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OH!! Got me confused a minute and didn't know what thread I was reading. I've been peeking inside this new PS-Jkson short block.
YES, it's hard and standing up ready to do business.
The foundation is nearly ready for the grout, too.
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Hmmm...so THAT'S what you meant when you were talking about _mounting_ your Listeroid in the shed! You live too far from town! ;)
I guess we all love our Listeroids in different ways.
Halfnuts
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The new engine mount is complete and done but the hardening process. More pictures posted at
http://community.webshots.com/photo/2895406460028237237xekcGu
THAT is a BIG job for one guy. (Too big) The total in masonry materials was 2905 pounds.....to be loaded at the store, unloaded at home, loaded into the mixer, and then shoveled back out.
You'll notice some copper pipe....that's hot water from the well that circulates just through the grout. There's more in the heart of the block that should, according to calculations, keep the block about 85 degrees year round.
The top of the angle iron is 12 inches from the floor and level both ways.
There're copper groundstrap silversoldered to the bottom of the frame rail braces and bolted to a copper ground rod driven next to the well casing six feet below the bottom of the engine foundation. It's dang sure GROUNDED!
I sure hope I didn't forget something......
Yes, I've measured the bolt spacings NINE ways. They're right. ;D
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hey!
can you move that over just an inch!!!!
hahaha
good job
bob g
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Thats nice.
You'll notice some copper pipe....that's hot water from the well that circulates just through the grout. There's more in the heart of the block that should, according to calculations, keep the block about 85 degrees year round.
Its amazing the uses one can find for hot water when it just flows out of the ground!
Thanks, Geno
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I'd kill for hot water out of the ground. The other nigt at work I was repairing a drill at 7810 level of the mine where I work. I just wanted to rinse my hands so I open a header on a water line feeding th drill " coolant " water it must have been over 110 deg. Nice hot water, sweating like a pig three rounds away form the gates of hell digging for shiny rocks.... But if there was away to pipe that up to my house I'd never bitch about the heat in the deap again.
Doug
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Very nice work Hotater. Did you buy your Artesian well in Artesia? ;D Sorry, couldn't help myself.
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Twinscrew-- There is an Artesia, Idaho near some big flowing wells....chicken? or egg?
Update---
(http://thumb17.webshots.net/t/50/50/1/88/53/2761188530028237237adEytn_th.jpg) (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2761188530028237237adEytn)
After laboring much more than I'm accoustomed to, or have much interest in repeating, the new Jkson-Power Solutions Kit engine went into full time service the afternoon of December first. The concrete base is truly amazing. There is NO movement and the only vibration that's felt is the cam and four tappets operating.
The drip pan was a wonderful idea. Between coolant drips and mistakes and a dripping oil pump line the drip pan has already proved it's value. I WISH I'd put a drain in when it was easy!
I'll be posting more pictures soon. It's working full time but construction clutter precludes photos. ;)
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OK, I give up. Tried following the plumbing from picture to picture but I keep getting lost.
What does the green tank with the long neck do? Heat the fuel?
I'm guessing that with the hotspring you never have to start a cold engine? Nice.
Bill
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Bill-- I've been trying all day to get a decent picture of that mess.
(http://thumb17.webshots.net/t/14/15/7/57/2/2037757020028237237kGgXmV_th.jpg) (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2037757020028237237kGgXmV)
Try this one-
The exit 'hot' water from the cylinder head is inch and a half galvanized at top. the flow is to the left and outside into the top of the radiator.
(http://thumb17.webshots.net/t/54/54/6/20/86/2498620860028237237SILGxZ_th.jpg) (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2498620860028237237SILGxZ)
The inch and a quarter galvanized at the bottom is Teed into the propane tank coolant tank that adds ten gallons to what would be a fizve gallon system. The radiator holds four gallons and the engine holds one.
The stand pipe coming up the side is a 'sight glass' to show coolant level. The top of the sight glass Tees into the top 'vent' tube that catches bubbles coming from the engine and diverts them away from the radiator.
(http://thumb17.webshots.net/t/56/156/9/38/87/2468938870028237237XHRkYl_th.jpg) (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2468938870028237237XHRkYl)
The head has a 195 degree t'stat installed. It takes twenty minutes under load to cause hot water to travel up the exit pipe, but in five minutes of operating temperature the entire pipe is hot. After about three hours of running the bottom 'entrance' pipe shows 85 degrees. This return water seems to equally split at the Tee and some travels into the storage tank.
After ten hours of running the return pipe is 100 to 110 at the engine and the storage tank will be from 100 to 160 depending on level. The top of the filler neck is hottest right where the overflow is.
The radiator stays about 170 at the top and 120 at the bottom. This is with mid twenties air temperature, but no wind.
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Jack;
That is one very nice engine room. I've been reading your posts over the years and between what you know / learned and your determination / energy, you have done great!
Scott E
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Hi I've been looking at your cooling system.
I don't believe I under stand what the green tank is doing down low on the setup?
I believe I would put it up above everything else as a reserve, in case of leaks.
Your system seems overly complex.
But then everybody has opinions, huh!
Dennis
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Dennis---
The green tank has eight gallons above the engine inlet as a reserve. It could have been more, but I wanted a 'sump' in the cooling system to catch any rust flakes from the old radiator. There's another one with a magnet just below the engine intake.
It is complex, but it's VISIBLE. I thought anti-freeze was darker than the stuff I bought, but theres $70 worth of it in there and I'm not changing now. ;) I like the sight glass arrangement to see the coolant level at a glance. The same with the fuel 'gage' with sight tubes inside and out. I generally look in on any engine that's running two or three times a day and it's nice to take it all in with a sweep.
Notice also that I put cut-off valves and drains on everything. Time saved is more time for fishing. ;)
A more complicated arrangement is easier and safer when nothing moves or vibrates, too. :-X
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Hi I do have a question about the 1/2" black pipe in this view. Is this a heater for fuel or lube oil?
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2765936030028237237bVdxdT
Dennis
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The bottom is fuel supply and the top is fuel return.
I raised the return because it goes into the line upstream from the cut-off so has to be higher than fuel level to be disconnected. The sight glass for fuel is on the left edge of the light metal plate.
You can see the bottom of the fuel filter/separator peeking from under the exhaust pipe.
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Now I get it. I was thinking that the 1/2" iron was headed to the tank. Any problems with fuel gelling? How about the heated concrete, does it warm the engine too?
Bill
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Jack;
Your cooling system reminded me about my home heat "boiler".
I have a hydronic heat system that uses a sectional header boiler to heat water to 180 degrees, and it looks similar to your iron radiator.
Last year I put a magnesium anode in it. I used an inexpensive magnesium pencil anode that screws into a 3/4 inch pipe plug that has been drilled and tapped. I just replaced the boiler drain valve with it, and the anode stuck a few inches into the water return pipe.
This winter while doing the pre-startup cleaning etc, I pulled the anode to see if it was working. Boy and How! It had corrosion pits all over, indicating that it was doing it's job.
Before installing the anode, when I vented the radiators, the escaping air smelled like corroded metal, now it 'smells clean'.
You might want to consider adding a magnesium anode to your cooling loop, I'm going to add one to mine!
Scott E
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Bill--
I treated both new fuel tanks pretty heavy with 911 sauce and additives so haven't had a gelling problem at all.
I've only had sub zero temps for three of the ten nights MT-II has been in service. I don't have the water running through the mount', yet. The room is heated by those rusty square heating radiators along the wall. There's 40 feet of them total with another 40 to install. With outside temps at minus 4 F the inside is still 50 and the engine starts right up.
The old engine was in a narrow part of the building and next to an open wall. It could get into the mid twenties on really cold, windy nights...but it usually ran all night on those nights so I didn't worry about it.
Good tip, Scott. Where do you find them?
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Jack;
Try Grainger P/N 1AYC2 they are used in hot water tanks to inhibit corrosion, and are safe in drinking water. They have a picture on thier site.
They leave a very thin brown protective coating on the engine parts. We use them at work.
The anode has a small daimeter threaded steel rod in it that holds it in the plug. One should last years in a closed loop cooling system of your size.
I got mine from Harbor Supply in Seattle, they provide anodes for the ships etc.
Scott E
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Jack
I'm sure many of us are curious. What became of the FuKing? Was it retired because it needed to be, or to make room for the new engine? You've got to have lots of hrs on it, how did it hold up?
Bill
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Magic Throb-I is still in place but empty of water and oil.
It'll be moved back into a crowded corner and be totally rebuilt from the ground up. My 15Kw Onan will occupy that space but it's going to be several days of sinking dead-man anchors and hand winching the Onan off the trailer and down the hill up another and into the building.
Right now (12-17) the heat supply pipes are frozen again and I'm trying to get heat back to the building before it REALLY gets cold.
Minus 5F the last two nights.