Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: Tanman on June 26, 2021, 11:33:57 PM

Title: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: Tanman on June 26, 2021, 11:33:57 PM
Hello everyone, hope you are all doing well. I just picked up my first Listeroid! A 12/2 metro. Upon tearing into it today I noticed that there was some corrosion and strange gew that got into that cylinder and I'm wondering if just cleaning it up and honing it out will do the trick? I'll attach pictures soon. Also, there were mysterious solids in the coolant? Iím thinking someone forgot a paper towel in there or something.
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on June 27, 2021, 12:49:34 PM
In case you didn't realize it that is a direct injection engine. Most of the upper end parts and the pistons are not interchangeable with the standard pattern engines.

Can't tell a thing about the cylinders in the photos. Clean, hone and inspect for wear and damage. Looks like that engine was run on something other than diesel fuel
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: 32 coupe on June 27, 2021, 11:48:44 PM

I'd like to see more pics....
Crank, case, rods .....etc.
Just curious against my Ashwamegh.

Thanks

Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: Tanman on June 28, 2021, 03:26:54 AM
In case you didn't realize it that is a direct injection engine. Most of the upper end parts and the pistons are not interchangeable with the standard pattern engines.

Can't tell a thing about the cylinders in the photos. Clean, hone and inspect for wear and damage. Looks like that engine was run on something other than diesel fuel

That is a bummer, I did measure the cylinder it is the standard diameter, so hopefully I can scrounge up rings if I need them. I'll do what you said and post updates as I go along. I'm also thinking I might weigh the pistons and rods and flywheels and get everything to the same weight. Hopefully that will have some impact on vibration.
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: Tanman on June 28, 2021, 03:28:16 AM

I'd like to see more pics....
Crank, case, rods .....etc.
Just curious against my Ashwamegh.

Thanks

No problem, I'll post some more pics this week.
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on June 28, 2021, 04:08:53 AM
I should have those rings in stock along with bearings, gaskets sets etc if you have any needs.
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: Tanman on June 28, 2021, 02:11:59 PM
I should have those rings in stock along with bearings, gaskets sets etc if you have any needs.

I know Iíll need bearings for sure, the rod bearings have some scratches, so I would assume both of those sets will need to be swapped along with the mains probably.
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on June 28, 2021, 05:02:56 PM
The con rod bearings are all the same other than material make up but there are several main bearing combinations. Seldom do the mains need replacing.
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: Tanman on June 29, 2021, 01:21:20 AM
The con rod bearings are all the same other than material make up but there are several main bearing combinations. Seldom do the mains need replacing.

Awesome, I probably wonít pull the crank this time then. Just polish the exposed journals. Iíll email you about rod bearings.
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: Tanman on July 02, 2021, 08:33:01 PM

I'd like to see more pics....
Crank, case, rods .....etc.
Just curious against my Ashwamegh.

Thanks
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: Tanman on July 03, 2021, 02:45:36 AM
Question, is this this type of build up on the big rod bearing normal?
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: veggie on July 03, 2021, 07:52:44 PM
Something looks wrong there.
The babbit appears to be scored (lighter grey material) and the section near the end of the shell (darker grey) looks like it's not contacting the main bearing journal.   ???
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: Tanman on July 03, 2021, 08:22:05 PM
Something looks wrong there.
The babbit appears to be scored (lighter grey material) and the section near the end of the shell (darker grey) looks like it's not contacting the main bearing journal.   ???

Itís definitely scored, one of the Babbitt actually had a piece break off. And all of the Babbitt have that darker buildup area on both edges (all four in total) so that means that the rod end and cap are a little to open and not perfect half circles right?
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: 32 coupe on July 03, 2021, 08:22:21 PM
I think some bearings look like that.

What does the  throw on the crank look like ?

Plasti gauge will help here.

Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: Tanman on July 03, 2021, 08:41:35 PM
I think some bearings look like that.

What does the  throw on the crank look like ?

Plasti gauge will help here.

The crank journal that attaches to has some grooves on it and needs to be sanded/polished. What is the proper plastigage width for these?
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: 32 coupe on July 03, 2021, 10:28:24 PM
My Metro manual has :

"Maximum rod clearance .003"

I'm sure someone else will chime in on this as it has been discussed several times.

You might try the search engine here for more info.

Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: 32 coupe on July 04, 2021, 02:28:20 AM

Did the rod cap have any shims ?

Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: George A on July 04, 2021, 11:15:16 PM
Any engine I've ever working on required a bearing clearance of .025-.003 when using oil. A clearance of .003-.004 was required for a greased bearing. This is based on several years of rebuilding/restoring antique flywheel engines and always held true.
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: Tanman on July 05, 2021, 02:49:09 AM

Did the rod cap have any shims ?

No shims on this side, havenít tore into other side yet.
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: Tanman on July 08, 2021, 07:10:38 PM
My idler gear seems loose. What I mean is I can grab and wiggle it like the hole in the gear and or the idler bolt is worn. I tried tightening the idler bolt as much as I dared, but it didnít seem to have an effect. Has anyone else had this issue?
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on July 09, 2021, 11:12:21 AM
"loose" is subjective thus I can't be of much help. The bolt/shaft tightens against a shoulder this as you have discovered one can tighten until it breaks and it will not affect the clearances.  There is always some movement in the gear, especially noticeable if twisted on the axis. Actuall clearance with new parts I would guess is .001/ .002".  If correction is needed options are to bush the gear or replacement.
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: Tanman on July 20, 2021, 02:03:27 PM
I decided to take the whole engine apart but have hit a small snag. The camshaft goes through a small bushing in a small casting whole on the side opposite the gears. There is a cam lobe added to that side to drive that sides fuel pump. That lobe has to be removed in order to remove the rest of the camshaft! I have hammered pretty good (4lb hammer and flat punch) to get the pin holding the last cam lobe off and no dice. Does anyone have some tips for getting a very stubborn cam lobe pin out?
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: mikenash on July 20, 2021, 07:43:36 PM
Pins are tapered?  Cheers
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: Tanman on July 20, 2021, 07:56:29 PM
It looks that way to me.
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: 32 coupe on July 20, 2021, 10:31:13 PM

Yes, they are tapered.

They have been known to beat on both sides. I had one I had to grind the small side flush
before I could drive it out.

Replacement pins are available.


Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: sirpedrosa on July 21, 2021, 09:55:09 AM
Hi Gentles, TanMan

If it worth take a look at my thread here: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8320.msg100585#msg100585

PAY CAREFULL TO NOT BEND THE CAM SHAFT

Then here: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8320.msg101978#msg101978

And finally here: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8320.msg102710#msg102710

Any other question, be my guest - and off course all other members.

Stay safe
VP
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on July 21, 2021, 11:36:00 AM
Yes the pin is tapered. Starting out at square one they come out IF one positively located the small end AND uses the correct near size drift AND hits it hard the FIRST time. However once it has been knocked on and it is now mushroomed to some extent the job becomes more tedious. First you need to positively located to small end. Then grind it flush with the cam lobe to remove as much mushroom as possible. Then grind the tip of a punch so it is slightly smaller than the pin. Then heat the cam lobe with a torch, must be hot, not warm, but not red hot. Quickly grab the punch and hammer and hit it good ONCE. 99 times it will move, if not do NOT keep on hitting it as you are doing nothing but mushrooming the pin. Heat it again and give it another hit.  I have had one case were I had to cut the lobe off the cam, it was a very neglected engine that another person had butchered previously.  I keep the pins here or order them from McMaster Carr.
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: Tanman on July 22, 2021, 12:01:51 AM
Thank you for the guidance and responses for the cam lobe everyone. Also, thank you 38ac for getting those exhaust valves and guides shipped to me so fast! They look great.
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: Tanman on August 25, 2021, 02:34:02 PM
Okay so I'm having a lot of trouble getting that cam lobe off, not giving up just a little stuck. On top of that, I noticed that the other end of the camshaft (side with the gears) has a pretty good wobble to it. What is the best practice to straighten that out? (I couldn't find a bent cam or bent camshaft thread). Thank you.
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: 32 coupe on August 25, 2021, 10:16:52 PM

Once you remove the entire cam set it on some parallel blocks rotate and check to see if it's bent.

Mine was out a little and once I located the high spot a wack with a hammer will straighten it.

The center carrier for the cam on mine was sloppy in the block. I had to shim the  center carrier
to remove the excess play. My unit is an Ashwamegh so yours may be different.

I'm sure someone will chime in with more/better info.

Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: Tanman on September 19, 2021, 05:08:46 AM
So I am in the rebuild stage and am test fitting the crank shaft and cam shaft, I set the clearance on the main bushings and there is very little play in the crank back and fourth almost imperceptible. But the crank seems difficult to turn, at least more than I would imagine it should be. Iím assuming that should rotate very easily with one hand at this point (no flywheels or rods attached).
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on September 19, 2021, 01:09:40 PM
You should have about .010 end play. It is possible on a twin to have the crankshaft shoved into the center main via wrong number of shims on each outside housing. Another possibility is the shims are not up on the pilot that is machined in the housing thus pinching the crank. Always place the shims on the housing and hold them while guiding it in place. If this all checks out then loosen the  center main retaining bolt and the end housing nuts about one turn. Then knock the crank end ways with a mallet or hardwood block and hammer. Are tighten and check. Yes, the crankshaft should turn easily when correct.
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: 32 coupe on September 19, 2021, 05:30:54 PM
When I rebuilt my 25/2 .
It has bushings and not roller bearings.

I ended up with several gaskets on each side to set
end play. What I found was that as I tightened the
bearing holder the clearance would change.
I spent a few hours tightening , spinning the crank by
hand, tightening the bolts, spinning the crank....

I think it is because the housing is so large the geometry changes
as the bolts are tightened.

Just what I found....your results may be different.


Edit....
I'm not sure I explained this as well as I should have. I'll try again.

What I experienced was not just end play but I noticed the entire bearing housing
would shift enough while tightening the bolts that the bearing would bind the crank.
I had  enough gaskets on each side that my plan was to remove gaskets and "sneak up"
on the end play. As I got closer to the end play and began to tighten the housing bolts closer
to torque is when I began to notice the pattern on tightened bolts would determine bearing clearance.
And yes the crank is straight.

The fact that the bearing itself is some 3" or better in length must come into play.
 It covers a pretty good area of the crank
unlike the roller bearings that cover what 1" or so ?  So when tightening the housing bolts  the housing
would shift enough that the housing was not parallel with the crank so the bearing would bind.

These engines are a hobby for me and not a job. I hate to think of the hours of time I spent on setting the
crankshaft into that twin. Time wise it was probibly over several weekends of play time. A few hours at a
time.  I have built engines my entire life. Lawn mowers to race cars, boats, aircraft.......I thought I knew
something untill I discovered these monsters. They are a different animal. 

I'm sure I could do one now in a few hours but don't know if I would want to !

I hope I explained this so everyone could understand what I'm trying to say.

Enjoy !




Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: Tanman on September 20, 2021, 04:31:12 AM
Thank you 32 and 38, I losses the housing bolts and the bolt holding the center breaking, spun it a few times and tightens everything back up (spinning it between tightening each side and center) and now it turns easy. Thanks again!
Title: Re: Metro 12/2 rebuild
Post by: Tanman on September 28, 2021, 10:19:15 PM
Well gents Iím on the re-assembly path and have come to the point of attaching the piston rods. The first piston measured .001 with plastigage but when torqued down to 55ftlbs would not turn (I did oil them up). I added one shim to each side of the cap and still too tight, added two total to each side and it spins freely. Can you add 1 to one side and 2 to the other? My shins came in a rebuild pack that came with the engine they are about as thick as a pop can sidewall (I can measure them if that helps us come to a clear answer).

CHEERS!