Lister Engine Forum
How to / DIY => Engines => Topic started by: Lcrowther on April 29, 2021, 12:21:06 PM
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Hi all.
I'm quite new here and to the world of lister in general.
I'm trying to get a museums lister D to work.
I've tried all sorts of ideas I've seen on the internet but cannot seem to get it running. I managed somehow to get it running for 10 minutes yesterday before I stopped it. But cannot get it running again.
We've got a new Champion D16 spark plug in which sparks nicely but sometimes doesn't when touching the engine. This could be an issue but I don't know enough on the electrical side of engineering to solve it.
The carburettor and float chamber have been stripped and cleaned up.
I'm running out of ideas quite frankly
The engine plate is shown as
N° - 1/18489
Spec - 28 DH
H.P - 1 1/2
RPM - 700
Any help will be appreciated.
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An intermittent spark could indicate the magneto is on its way out. I've never worked on a magneto, so I can't help you much there, but if you google "magneto rebuild", there should be plenty of assistance that way. Another thing to check is the HT lead between the magneto and the plug, is that good? If it's original, there's every chance it's wrecked internally (if not externally) and could be contributing.
I'll assume that your carburettor is OK, based on the fact you've cleaned it up, although depending on how deep you've gone into it, you might need to give it a full rebuild.
Other things to consider - what's the compression like? If the rings are stuck, or the valve seats aren't good, you might be getting marginal compression, which won't help starting a cold engine. Valve seats you can inspect by removing the head & simply pushing open each valve. Any pitting on the seats will require grinding out.
In the brief run you did get out of it, how did it seem? Was it a bit huffy, or weak seeming (both would point to compression)? Was the exhaust clean, or was there evidence of grey/black smoke (over fuelling)? Did it get murder hot (running lean)? Was it responsive to throttle changes (iffy carb if not)? Was it misfiring sometimes (magneto, lead or plug)? Something else to consider, if your spark plug is not of the correct heat range, you might be having problems with it. Did you pull it out after the one successful run & get a look at it? Assuming it's not since been washed clean by unburnt fuel, it may still tell you something about how the engine ran that last time - e.g. did it get fouled, or burnt up, etc.
FWIW, my experience of petrol stationary engines is limited to one extremely temperamental Villiers engine, which I loathe, but which one of these days I really ought to fix...
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Welcome to the Forum and hope we can help you get this little gem sorted for you.
Firstly try again to start the engine but squirt some engine oil down the plug hole. This will help build up compression to make it start. If this does the trick then one of two things have to happen, run the engine at various revs for long periods of time to free up sticky ring or a hone and a set of rings is needed.
Electrics, I have come to call this side of the engines 'elctrickery' as it can send you mad trying to sort it but once done you think how easy was that. Firstly you need to test the HT lead and the connectors from inside the cap to the brass end on the HT lead. HT leads MUST be copper wire cored and never use carbon leads. Dont turn the magneto over unless the spark can jump to earth or is grounded. Common problems with magnetos in order are points dirty and not gapped correctly. Once you have cleaned the points clean them again to make sure. HT lead already covered, condensor, which are readily available or you can fit a film capacitor to the vale of .22uf - 630v and finally coil. An even rarer problem is the magnets loosing there pull but if you have had it running I feel they are good enough.
I have posted some magneto information for you to use and your magneto should be one of the two I have posted and are basic and good magnetos when they are in good shape. No magneto will be reliable if there are faulty parts inside. I would guess your might have the RS1 magneto which should have the model stamped on the side along with a date. All parts are available just Google magneto parts near you and then start making contact.
Yes, Other issues may be causing your problems like mentioned with valves, head rings so it is a case of testing one thing at a time and then get onto the next one. Good luck with it and we are keen to know how you get on.
Cheers Cobba
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Thank you both for your help.
I did a full rebuild of the carb apart from the butterfly valv in it as that looked ok and quick tricky to put together again. I replace a spring for the air inlet valve as the old one wasn't good and it was rusty. What is the correct spring tension roughly? I didn't replace like to like but it was close to the same size.
I believe the HT lead is copper cored but I need to get a multimeter on it to test if it's good. I'm not sure what type of ma we've got as it was donated to us however we believe it is Lucas type with a squareish body to it.
I'll try the few ideas you both suggested next week when I'm next at the museum.
I'll try to attach a video of it running here but if it doesn't work I will put up another reply here with a link to it.
Thank you for your help
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Here the link to the video I took the other day.
https://youtu.be/0VuFxcZqrbI
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:D If you really wanted to keep the magneto make and model a secret that video achieves that easily. With just the fleeting glimpses of it you have a RS1 Lucas. Going by the way it is running in the video I would be looking at other possible issues first. Now for the foot in mouth disease to kick in. A magneto can work very well when cold and then break down after it warms up and a spark can then track to earth internally through the coil.
Most likely fuel but it is running well in the video. The spring you mentioned is it the retturn sprinnnnnnng you are talking about that is running vertically to the spring tensioner? If so just back off the tension to the weakest possible setting and go from there. All it has to do is return the butterfly to closed when required.
Look forward to any and all progress as it happens.
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It wasn't my intention to not get the mag in the video, I think I got excited when I managed to get it running so I took a short video quick😁. I'm genuinely surprised I haven't taken any detailed photos of parts yet, I will from now on.
I'll give it all another look at when I'm back there with a fresh pair of eyes and give everyone's ideas a go.
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No problems at all about missing the maggy. I really dont think there is much wrong with the engine other than needing a good long run varying the revs and puttinnnnnnng it under load form time to time. I sometimes grab a length of timber and while the engine is rrrrunning I put it un der the flywheel and lift it slightly. This loads up the engine and brings the governor into play so does 2 jobs at once.
These Lister engines were well and truly over designed with quality thrown in at the same time. Parts that fail have done so due to lack or no maintenance or they have really been worked very long and hard.
When you go back, go armed with plenty of good clean, fresh fuel, a spare plug, feeler gauges, points file, some carby cleaner to clean up the inside of the maggy where the popints are as sometimes there is a lot of oil there. Try a good squirt of oil down the plug hole and start it up and see what happens.
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I'll have a go at what you have suggested. It's quite pleasing when it gets going, it's the getting going which Is the problem. You have mentioned a couple of things I haven't tried yet so I'll give them a go.
Cheers
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Everyone else has already covered all the things that jumped to my mind.
The first thing would be cure that intermittent spark. And also remember you want a GOOD spark. If it's weak outside the cylinder it could be 5/8ths of nothing when it's under compression.
There were plans floating around the internet for a magneto "recharger".
Ideally you could find a known good spare to test if it is in fact that, but also gap and points as mentioned.
Engines only need a few things to run: Air, fuel, compression, and spark (at the right time)
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And in case the cylinder is glazed from too much lazy running, a method I came across the other day was to pick up a garden sprayer full of water, and once it's up to temp and idling, start spraying a mist into the intake, basically until it bogs, then back it off some.
This is the method behind water/meth injection.
It should start throwing out a whole lot of garbage, you just have to keep spraying until the exhaust is clear.
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Yes mihit, sorting out the spark is THE most important thing to do first. There are many designs on the internet to build magneto chargers and the best ones I have seen are posted on the Smokstak Forum based in the U.S. But having said that there is a significant expense in building them if you don't have a few kilos of suitable copper wire and if the wrong wire, too much or not enough is wound around the coils then it will be useless. So to build one you really want to be doing a lot of magnetos up or the best way is to Google a magneto repairer near you or a stationary engine club near you as many clubs have a charger or a member with one and slip them a couple of bucks to charge it up.
I have a number of magnetos and have 3 of them sitting on the shelf awaiting a time to rebuild them and they certainly will need charging so I will take them to a club meeting when it is time and charge them up. I have not heard of the method of spraying small mists of water into a running engine to de-glaze it but only to de-coke it as the mist of water turns to steam and that is what loosens the carbon. I can't see how that method would work on the de-glazing but I am always happy to learn.
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you could try sun baking the magneto, try to cook the water out of it at about 160F for a couple hours. Not so hot as to damage parts, but warm enough to drive out moisture deep inside. if it works, you know it's a moisture problem.
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Now that you mention this trick, I did manage to dry a coil out from my Model 1 Victa after it went 3' under water during a flood. I simply put it on a pllate then wrapped it in glad wrap and left it out in the sun each day for about a week. At the end of each day I took the wrapping off and wiped it dry and put it back on for the next day. Slow but it worked.
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My two cents, considering magnetos, point gap is critical, also points should be not just free of pits and roughness but polished and the final bit is to run clean dry paper or cardboard through the points to make sure all residue is wiped off.
Try running or turning the engine over in the dark to see if any sparks show up in the electrics.
If the compression is weak a trick I learned is to give the cylinder bore a good hone somewhat rough. This will make the rings reconnect to the cylinder bore. Make sure you clean the bore after honing.
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Very good advise with the cleaning and 'polishing' of the points and to drag a piece of clean cardboard through does work well but I just spray either over them and let that evaporate. If you do this method give it a few minutes to evaporate or you will discover that it is flammable, dont ask how I know!
Yes honing the bore or even roughing it up using some wet n dry paper will help but do not rub it up and down only around in circumference of the bore but if the engine has not run for a while big chances it just needs a good run first to loosen up the rings as they can get stuck by the carbon build up and a good run under load tends to free that issue up in most cases.
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For sure cobbadog. New honing only in a case where compression is suspect, with inconsistent ability to run. I would think consistent compression below 90 would be a red flag if it's going to be a worker.
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I have not heard of the method of spraying small mists of water into a running engine to de-glaze it but only to de-coke it as the mist of water turns to steam and that is what loosens the carbon. I can't see how that method would work on the de-glazing but I am always happy to learn.
I can't say I understand the science myself, I'll try and find the link.
As I understand it water injection a) cools the intake charge giving denser (more) air, and b) once in the chamber splits into oxygen and hydrogen to promote more complete combustion.
Maybe hotter running breaks the glaze allowing the rings to scrape it?
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It will be an interesting read if you can find it. Injecting water as far as I know and understand, and this depends on how much you introduce before blowing the top off the piston, The water turns to steam and that is what loosens the carbon and it then exits through the exhaust.
I have heard of other methods used to de-glaze a bore but they are so far out of left field that it would do more damage than leaving it as is.
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I'm not sure there is any cracking of the water to produce/burn hydrogen? That might be nuclear? I think we're just talking about a wee smidgen of steam in the combustion chamber to looses/softer the soot? Cheers
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That is my thoughts too Mike but I am always open to learn something new. At my age I should know everything but ask my wife she doesn't realise that at all.
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Haha.
Yeah, well. Wikipedia link here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engine)
Talks about the vaporisation and steam.
Also it says: "...may be attributable to the water gas shift reaction, in which CO and H2O shift to form CO2 and H2"
- that is, Carbon Monoxide and Water transform to Carbon Dioxide and Hydrogen...
But nope, beggared if I can find the link I read, searching my history bar turns up naught. But you can be assured I'll post it when I find it again.
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Hi all, sorry I haven't got back to you all sooner. I managed to get it all working in the end, quite well actually. All it needed was a new plug. And it has been working for the last 3/4 weeks without a problem. However today it has decided not to play again. It coughs and splutters by doesn't go. It's a bit confusing as it was working perfectly well last week.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Kind regards
Luke
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Well at least it is a step in the right direction. Now for lots of questions because of lack of detail as to what you have tried to revive it.
Check, clean and gap the plug again.
While its out check that it sparks before you fit it back again and tell us what colour the spark is. The engine will spin over easily with the plug out.
Check, clean and gap the points.
Fuel.
Is there a blockage in the fuel pick up or delivery line?
Strip and clean the carby.
Has the air mixture screw been change or moved by itself?
Is the needle and seat blocked or rust in the tank?
Are the v alve clearances correct and are the valves seating?
With spark, compression and fuel it must run so if you are still having issues check the spark timing and let us know how you get on.
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Sounds like a fuel problem. Have you tried a spot of starting fluid to see if the engine lights up?
Someone has probably already mentioned this but I am too lazy to go back and look.
When checking for spark it is important to make sure the high voltage spike from the mag or coil has a GOOD ground.
If it doesn't that high energy spike has to go somewhere and it might rupture the coil windings trying to find a ground.
You might get away with it for a while but every time that happens it weakens the coil windings.
Just holding the spark plug against some convenient hunk of metal doesn't always cut it.
Attaching a jumper wire from the plug to a clean shiny spot on the crank case is good insurance.
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Thank you for your ideas, I'll have a look at it next week now. I might have to look at the points again and give them a clean. it was a bit confusing as when you crank it over by the handle it would fire for 1 stroke, it sometimes speeds up and act as if it would start but then cut out after after a couple of fires.
The carb was cleaned out after the float chamber caught fire after the engine back fired so was forced into cleaning it and surrounding parts.
Thank you.
Kind regards
Luke
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That bit of information helps us.
Pull the plug out and put a small amount of fuel down te plug hole and fit the plug and start it. But it now sounds like fuel or a bad coil/condensor. By trying the fuel down the plug hole this will eliminate the fuel issue and if you have a squirty bottle you can squirt it into the carby to keep it going.
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Ok, I will give that try next time and report back.
Thank you
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Sorry to drag up an old thre and but this sounds very similar to the issue I have now. What was the fix in the end that got it going?
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The OP hant got back with the final report of what did cure his problem.
Since you sound as if you ned help it is b etter to start a new thread of your own so that replies dont get mixed up.
You could read this topic and follow the advise already offered and see how you get on. If you decide to start your own thread give as much detail as you can to the problem and what you have done. Keep us informed.
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Hi,
It’s been a while since I sorted it. I ended up acquiring it, so it came back to my workshop and I completely stripped it down.
Turns out the piston rings have had it, and there was some scoring of the cylinder.
I honed the cylinder and fitted new oversized piston rings and that seemed to solve the problem and it worked quite happily ever since.
To be honest, I haven’t ran it for over a year so I think I need to drag it out and run it for a couple of hours.
Thank you
Luke
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Thanks for the reply with a great outcome. Yes, once you fix them give them a regular run or you will end up back at square on.
Quite a few blokes out here often have a start up day at home and video them for fun and to share. It is a good feling to see your toys lined up running or misbehaving which ever the case may be.