Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: gadget on December 04, 2020, 07:00:07 PM
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I've been searching for an option for a low output CHP set, right around .5-1 HP. I'm looking for 300-600watts continues electric and heat output. Think small cabin type setup. I want it to run continues but be able to go a 25k hours between major rebuild(if possible) so I'm thinking low 100-200 RPM. Big piston / flywheel motor looks like the way to go.
So far, I'm thinking a listeroid may be the simplest setup, but I'm not sure what kind of power output at those speeds. I was also looking at a changfa but I think indirect injection would probably be more reliable at low speed vs the changfa direct injection. Its going to also run on oil.
Issues with the lister that I know about would be the oiling and lower "running compression". I'm also dealing with altitude which will further decrease air volume.
1) Add extra pressurized oil system.
- Oil sprayer for under side of piston. This should get the cylinder oiled and the Rod small and large end.
- Oil stream for the mains ( in addition to existing???)
- Extra oil for all camshaft points
- Add oil filter while at it.
- Any thing else?
2) Add a blower
- centrifugal - vane style
- belt driven
- 1-3 PSI
3) Water dripper for coaking issues
4) Governor mods for smoother low RPM response(?)
generator would be a permanent magnet driven directly off the flywheel (Radial or axial)
Possible?
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Gadget......
I don't have a lot of experience with what you are thinking about doing but will put in my $.02 anyway.
You can probably do this. IIRC, there is a long time LEF member who is off-grid, and runs his 6/1 at 300 rpm for battery charging. He has been doing it for a long time with no apparent oiling issues. There is plenty of oil thrown around even at low rpm, so maybe no need to add the complication of pressure oiling. Remove the crankcase access door, secure a rag over the opening and run at low speed, you will see the amount of oil that gets .....well, everywhere. Ask me how I know......without the rag! The mains are drip feed as well as the splash so they are well lubed.
You could up the compression (adjusting the squish clearance) easily by reducing the thickness of the cylinder base gasket(s) or installing a COV in place of the usually installed plug and keep it in the cold start position.
Oil for the cam......seems the only problem point there is the area that is directly below that bolt that should be removed to lube the cam prior to starting after the engine has been sitting for a long time. I think another member welded a pin on to the bottom of that bolt to catch additional splash and let it drip directly onto the cam bearing area.
Blower......I am clueless there, but it has been done by others. Maybe you won't need that anyway.
Water injection.....I just use a spray bottle and squirt some distilled water into the intake every so often. There are some informative threads from others with a lot of good info about different water injection methods.
Gov mods.....I played around with different springs and got my gov to hold 60 Hz very closely (at 650rpm). There is a thread on the WOK about gov springs.
PMG......I use one, belt drive. Direct drive seems not able to absorb the power impulses so well, but is done. Serpentine belts seem to last forever, inexpensive and readily available.....even at a wrecking yard.
Give it a try. As a good friend says, it's not an experiment if it can't fail.
Before I post this, here's an old thread with a good discussion (including more links) about low Rpm running. very informative from those who have more experience than I.
https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7498.0
Good luck and keep us informed of your progress!
Cheers
Hugh
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For continuous running you will somehow have to deal with valve train lubrication.
Also, oil filtration may allow for longer oil change intervals.
Combine the solutions...
Consider this idea for continuous long runs with a 6/1 CS style.
It is something I am considering for my Listeroid.
-Replace the oil drain plug with a TEE fitting.
one port on the tee is for draining
one port on the tee is to connect a very small gear pump
-Draw oil from the sump with a small gear pump and pass it through an oil filter
From the filter you can branch to several locations in order to get the oil back to the sump.
1] The camshaft oiling plug near the decompression lever (this will solve any cam bearing lube issues)
2] If you want to include the valve as well, use a tube up to the valve assembly to trickle over the rockers and valves.
To drain the valve area you drill/tap a drain hole in the side of the cast iron ledge surrounding the valve chamber.
From there it can drain back to the camshaft lubrication plug by the decompression lever.
Obviously the flow must be very low, so a tiny gear pump is needed. (Or a larger gear pump with a bypass line taking the majority of the oil directly back to the sump while some oil goes to lubricate the valve system.
This is an old video but it does show a small gear pump running off my auxiliary crank pulley.
From the gear pump the oil passes through the filter and back into the sump. (I vented the crankcase elsewhere with a check valve).
Further modification to this system would be to TEE a connection before the oil goes back into the crankcase and divert some up to the valves.
Then have it drain into the camshaft lube port discussed above.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l562wUof59c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l562wUof59c)
The vid is a bit lengthy but you can jump to the 0:30 second mark to see the lube system.
good luck with your project,
veggie
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Valve lubrication for continuous operation......good point Veggie!
I'm always looking for the most simple and foolproof way to do things. Being a simple kind of guy.....
For valve gear lube on long or continuous running, my solution would be a gravity feed oiling system. A container of a litre or 2 capacity of clean oil with a manifold having as many valved off-takes as is wanted.....say of 1/8 copper tube. Each lube point can be individually adjusted. I don't think the cam would require any additional lube oil, as when running, it gets plenty.
Some advantages:
inexpensive and very easy to fabricate (big point for me)
No modification of the engine
no moving parts (failure points)and gravity is usually fairly reliable.
and........
clean oil being applies to the valve gear........no dirty black crankcase oil oozing over the top end (and recall the sump is there to collect nasty stuff) It is as difficult to remove as ball point pen ink from a white shirt.
Cheers
Hugh
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@Hugh
In your scenario where would the oil go after lubricating the valve assembly. (Assuming oil is continuously dripping onto the valve train)
cheers
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@Hugh
In your scenario where would the oil go after lubricating the valve assembly. (Assuming oil is continuously dripping onto the valve train)
cheers
Oil would go same place as it goes when we apply oil from an oil can for shorter runs
It's a total loss oiling system. Some early motorcycles and many early stationary systems used that system.
like this one....
Cheers,
Hugh
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@Hugh
In your scenario where would the oil go after lubricating the valve assembly. (Assuming oil is continuously dripping onto the valve train)
cheers
What doesn't drain into the cylinder via the valve guides (which need a bit of lube anyway) overflows and drips down the side of the engine . At least on mine, that seems to be where half the drops from my oil can go.
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@Hugh
What doesn't drain into the cylinder via the valve guides (which need a bit of lube anyway) overflows and drips down the side of the engine . At least on mine, that seems to be where half the drops from my oil can go.
Rust prevention......clever, those Lister engineers.
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This is all very encouraging, it seems like the oil issue is the biggest hurdle
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A common way during the golden age of Lister CS industrial applications was to pack a lot of grease around the valve train.
The engine could be left for days or weeks without attention.
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If you are using a battery setup, why not cycle the engine on/off, and run it at 600 RPM? I can't imagine an engine producing 1HP will make enough electrical power to be useful.
I'm guessing that a significant storage battery is going to be necessary.
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If you are using a battery setup, why not cycle the engine on/off, and run it at 600 RPM? I can't imagine an engine producing 1HP will make enough electrical power to be useful.
I'm guessing that a significant storage battery is going to be necessary.
Cujet,
That is a very good question that needs to be asked. I will say, cycling the motor for a few hours a day is still a very good option though it would have to be a good hot charge on the batteries.
My initial interest came from reading about small but continues output from small hydroelectric power from small streams. You don't need much if its 24/7 since it adds up. Now for a home, 300watts x 24hours = 7.2 kwh's might not be enough but for a cabin or rather a survival bunker, that is a ton of power.
Some good points for a small power 24/7 setup;
- No cold start cycle losses for higher efficiency and longer oil life. Should be easier on the motor with consistent temps
- Easier on batteries if there is a constant charge input and reduced charging temps
- Longer battery life since they would only be needed for infrequent large loads and not the continues loads
- Increase efficiency from less load going through batteries (very lossy)
- Closer match to continues loads like lights and blower fans
- Slower engine RPM should give longer life per running hour since RPM load/stress is an exponential curve.
- Continues heat output for domestic hot water use and hydronic heating. Less water tank temp cycling
- Comforting rhythmic engine noise 24/7
What am I missing here?
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What am I missing here?
The BSFC curve of any diesel engine varies markedly over RPM and load. I've seen some interesting (but casual) Listeroid fuel efficiency tests. It's pretty clear that Listeroid engines don't have any advantage from a HP produced vs. fuel consumed point of view, when compared to modern diesels. In fact, the spec on my data plate is 268 grams of fuel per KW hour, or 0.44 pounds of fuel per HP hour. The very same efficiency as the gasoline engine (Lycoming IO360) in my airplane.
I wish I had some better data on Listeroid efficiency. Maybe a consumption map with fuel efficiency "Islands" much like the pro's produce. In any case, it's pretty clear that there is a "sweet spot" with regard to operational speed (often related to piston speed) and load. Note: in the map below, the lower RPM ranges at high loads are far more efficient than the higher RPM ranges at lower loads (same HP output)
One relatively common theme in diesel fuel consumption maps is that higher loads and middle of the RPM range is often the most efficient. Speculation: A Listeroid can operate from around 350 to 1000 RPM, so 650 would be right in the middle, and somewhere just below the smoke limit would likely be most efficient.
It's also good to note that the lowly 1.9L VW TDI engine achieves a best BSFC number less than 200 grams per KW hour.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Brake_specific_fuel_consumption.svg/1200px-Brake_specific_fuel_consumption.svg.png)
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Yes, I have also heard that the little Kubota Z482 twin diesels are more efficient than Listers.
The original post included "slow speed" running, which would also save considerable fuel use provided enough HP is created to power whatever charging system you plan to use.
Many users have run Lister(roids) at 350 rpm driving an automotive alternator at 30 amps (12 volt) for 8 hrs a day.
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I've been searching for an option for a low output CHP set, right around .5-1 HP. I'm looking for 300-600watts continues electric and heat output. Think small cabin type setup. I want it to run continues but be able to go a 25k hours between major rebuild(if possible) so I'm thinking low 100-200 RPM. Big piston / flywheel motor looks like the way to go.
So far, I'm thinking a listeroid may be the simplest setup, but I'm not sure what kind of power output at those speeds. I was also looking at a changfa but I think indirect injection would probably be more reliable at low speed vs the changfa direct injection. Its going to also run on oil.
Your looking for only 300 to 600 watts?
A listeroid is too large. It will never heat up enough. There is just too much iron to soaking up the heat. It will coke up, and cylinder will most likely glaze up with such a light load. And a gooey mess coming out of the exhaust. I doubt the crankcase will get hot enough to evaporate the moisture.
If you can find an R-165 and slow it down I would think it might be a better setup. It's only rated to 3hp.
Running it at around 1800 might give you around 1.5 hp. With friction and losses in a belt setup it might get you to where you need to be.
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I've been searching for an option for a low output CHP set, right around .5-1 HP. I'm looking for 300-600watts continues electric and heat output. Think small cabin type setup. I want it to run continues but be able to go a 25k hours between major rebuild(if possible) so I'm thinking low 100-200 RPM. Big piston / flywheel motor looks like the way to go.
So far, I'm thinking a listeroid may be the simplest setup, but I'm not sure what kind of power output at those speeds. I was also looking at a changfa but I think indirect injection would probably be more reliable at low speed vs the changfa direct injection. Its going to also run on oil.
Your looking for only 300 to 600 watts?
A listeroid is too large. It will never heat up enough. It will coke up, and cylinder will most likely glaze up with such a light load. And a gooey mess coming out of the exhaust.
If you can find an R-165 and slow it down I would think it might be a better setup. It's only rated to 3hp.
Running it at around 1800 might give you around 1.5 hp. With friction and losses in a belt setup it might get you to where you need to be.
Was the R-165 IDI? I was looking at them but info is very hard to find. I saw one on ebay go for $300
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I believe they are IDI. Im not sure if they make them in DI. I know the S-195’s were made both ways.
I think the S-165 will be the best you can find for your application.
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If you already have a Listeroid and need 600 watts for batteries or other electrical needs, consider loading it a bit more by also connecting your generator to a heating element in the hot water tank. Or in cooler months plug an electric space heater into it.
That may help get the operating temperatures up while helping your heating needs. CHP ;D
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I believe they are IDI. Im not sure if they make them in DI. I know the S-195’s were made both ways.
I think the S-165 will be the best you can find for your application.
Confirm, you mean the r165 Changfa correct?
If I ran it at lower RPMs, I would likely need a custom long runner intake and more flywheel mass, should not be a problem
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I believe they are IDI. Im not sure if they make them in DI. I know the S-195’s were made both ways.
I think the S-165 will be the best you can find for your application.
Confirm, you mean the r165 Changfa correct?
If I ran it at lower RPMs, I would likely need a custom long runner intake and more flywheel mass, should not be a problem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ATQamebvfU&t=72s
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I've been searching for an option for a low output CHP set, right around .5-1 HP. I'm looking for 300-600watts continues electric and heat output. Think small cabin type setup. I want it to run continues but be able to go a 25k hours between major rebuild(if possible) so I'm thinking low 100-200 RPM. Big piston / flywheel motor looks like the way to go.
So far, I'm thinking a listeroid may be the simplest setup, but I'm not sure what kind of power output at those speeds. I was also looking at a changfa but I think indirect injection would probably be more reliable at low speed vs the changfa direct injection. Its going to also run on oil.
Your looking for only 300 to 600 watts?
A listeroid is too large. It will never heat up enough. There is just too much iron to soaking up the heat. It will coke up, and cylinder will most likely glaze up with such a light load. And a gooey mess coming out of the exhaust. I doubt the crankcase will get hot enough to evaporate the moisture.
You know considering how cool these motors run, it occurred to me maybe they could be insulated. I went to Canada once in January when it was around -18F and my rental car never armed up. The heater barely put out any heat after driving on the high way for about an hour. I'm guessing the cold air around the motor and heater where cooling the motor to much.
What would be the implications of wrapping a listeroid in some insulation? Has anyone tried it yet? I know there are issue with the sump area staying pretty low temp
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Here is some info: I’ve saved more through the years, I just have to find it.
https://service.multiquip.com/pdfs/Diesel_Engine_Wet_Stacking_Prevention.pdf
https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/eng/eng-01-00009/article_deploy/eng-01-00009.pdf
https://www.workspace-technology.com/effects-of-diesel-generator-light-load-running/
The Impact of Generator Set Underloading (Open attachment below)
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I believe they are IDI. Im not sure if they make them in DI. I know the S-195’s were made both ways.
I think the S-165 will be the best you can find for your application.
Confirm, you mean the r165 Changfa correct?
If I ran it at lower RPMs, I would likely need a custom long runner intake and more flywheel mass, should not be a problem
Yes, the R-165. You won’t need a long intake runner. Naturally aspirated diesels pull very little vacuum, especially at lower RPM’s.
Your not building a 170 Hyper-Pak. If you are, then long intake runners for sure. :)
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Here is some info: I’ve saved more through the years, I just have to find it.
The Impact of Generator Set Underloading (Must be logged in to view the attachment)
Some other stuff
https://service.multiquip.com/pdfs/Diesel_Engine_Wet_Stacking_Prevention.pdf
https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/eng/eng-01-00009/article_deploy/eng-01-00009.pdf
Sorry, this is long winded;
I read both of the PDF's. I know the trucks that idle for hours at truck stops have trouble with wet stacking in cold climates.
This got me thinking about some high temperature wood stoves I have made. I built one last winter with a ceramic fiber burn box and 2 blowers. Out put was very clean. Almost zero carbon build up in the stove. Flue exhaust (2 inch PVC) is basically warm misty CO2. Pretty cool for a wood stove.
I design my wood stoves with these principles; You have your fire triangle - fuel/heat/oxidizer (O2) but I also came up with an efficiency triangle after studying thermal oxidizers - time(under heat)/turbulence/temperature. Burning fuel is pretty simple, break the fuel down to its individual atoms and combine it with and oxidizer and allow enough time. Problem is, there is not enough time in a wood stove so we an make up for it by increasing the heat. In an engine, there is pretty much zero time so its pretty much just heat and mixing(turbulence). You can actually burn a fuel at room temperature by the way. Just allow enough time and it will oxidize(burn).
So in your diesel, as long as you have enough heat, air is coming in, and your injector is spraying fuel, it should run. Problem mentioned in the articles is that there is not enough heat in low load operation and the fuel is not burning completely. Just like if you run your wood stove on low you get build up in the chimeny.
partially broken down fuels(incomplete combustion) produce smaller hydrocarbons like tars/turpins and such and when they condense and combine with carbon it forms a sticky mess. Enough of this can cause engine damage over time.
with diesels unrestricted air intake, the fuel mixture can become extremely lean under light fueling adding to the problem. The cold high volumes of air cools the fuel mix to much causing pockets of unburned fuel.
So basically, motors are designed to operate in a window but, can we move the window around. How low can that window go? They use to run motors at very low RPM years ago, I'm assuming they worked fine???
We just need to maintain the efficiency triangle at the RPM's we want to run at. Listers seem to already have issues with buildup so how do we keep efficiency up? Trap more heat in??? Up the static compression??
I mentioned wrapping the block and head in insulation earlier, Anyone have any thoughts on that????? What issues would this cause??
Great input so far!!
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Manufacturers invested lots in R&D. Most have recommended running RPM’s. And loading. It’s best to stay within the manufacturer’s recommended parameters. If you can stay within recommended parameters than engine life should be within the manufacturer’s claims.
Another issue that has been discussed on microcogen and I think I brought it up on this fourm a while back is Critical Speed. An engine can generate harmonics that can damage itself at certain RPM’s.
Lightly loading any diesel is a bad idea. If your going to run only 300 to 500 watts, consider getting a Honda GX120 engine. Honda recommended operating speed for this particular engine is 2000-3600 RPM. It puts out just under 2hp at 2000. They are very efficient and last long. Buy a Meccatle S15W-45 generator head with the two bearing kit and you can have a nice compact efficient gas generator. And you won’t have the headaches running a diesel severely under loaded.
If you want to make a some hot water fabricate a heat exchanger.
Personally, I would purchase a small inverter generator that is rated to 1000 watts. I have a Yamaha EF1000iS and it’s seen hell. Fell off the back to the pickup, Used for weeks running a Sawzall, right angle drill, small skill saw, 4 blowers and halogen lighting. There were days it has ran over 10 hours on .66 gallons of gas. Been over 5 years and has hundreds of hours on and still does not use any oil. It’s one of the quietest ones out there. Noise Level 1/4 Load, 47 dBA / Full Load, 57dBA. The engine is only 50cc. During fall, winter and early spring it’s all I need for my RV. One of the best investments I’ve made for a generator. Maintenance, oil changes, air filter and spark arrester screen. That’s it.
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hwew,
I was digging through some of the changfa videos. Thats a nice looking little motor, to bad the ban came in right when they where getting popular. I like the dual balance shafts and gear drive setup. From what I can tell, it is partially splash lube so that would have to be checked out for low RPM operation. I don't think many got imported. There may be less of them in the US then listeroids. Im wondering if someone can import "kits". Im guessing they don't make the R165 anymore, anyone know?
For now, I think I will focus on converting a lister since I'm thinking the Changfa displacement might be to small for very low RPM range. The lister already has the large flywheels....
Lets assume for argument that a 6/1 produces 1 H.P. at 100 RPM (probably less than that). Thats 745 watts of flywheel power. If you apply a 600w load, you are now in the "heavy load" range. Assuming a 33% thermal efficiency lets say we will have 4,100 BTUs/hr waste heat. lets say we want to heat the entire motor minus flywheels from 60F to 180F. heat capacity of mild steel = .122 btu/lb-deg F ...400lbs x 120F increase x .122 = 5,800 BTUish. roughly 85 minutes to full warm up of entire block. Thats assuming no losses from surface radiation on the motor. Thats not allot of heat to work with. If we want to raise 50 gallons of water from 60F to 140F, we need 33,000 BTUs. Thats 8 hours of run time assuming zero loss from the block to the room. Thats almost a perfect match for a little remote cabin and basic hot water needs. FYI this would also involve capturing exhaust heat otherwise numbers are double for water heating time.
The block is going to need to be insulated. Now for what its worth, most vehicles I have worked on hot over the years never see 180F through the entire motor. Mostly between 120-150F on the edges and opposite ends of the motor. We don't have to keep the entire motor at full temp. There is resistance to heat flow, we just need to keep the head and cylinder/piston up to temp.
The other issue is the V.E. We will need to be getting 1.66 CFM into the motor at that RPM. There is a way to confirm this, if someone had a compression gauge and a 2 cylinder lister, they could confirm this with one side running and the other measuring running compression through the RPM band. We could graph VE through the RPM range this way. Other option is to manually spin up a single cylinder lister.
Some thing to think about, the V.E. can't be to horrible at that low of an RPM otherwise these motors would never hand start without glow plugs fully cold. Bumping the compression up may be all that is needed. The induction system may be fine how it is.
This is looking very possible from what I can see.
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gadget,
Sure, you can insulate the head.
Like this guy...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2ehdeEJOok (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2ehdeEJOok)
You can also run it slower and add a thermostat to keep the combustion temperatures high.
You can also load the engine up to 85% of the HP it creates at that lower speed, ensuring that it's adequately loaded and making as much heat as possible.
Good luck with the project, and be sure to post pictures/videos
veggie
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gadget,
Sure, you can insulate the head.
Like this guy...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2ehdeEJOok (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2ehdeEJOok)
You can also run it slower and add a thermostat to keep the combustion temperatures high.
You can also load the engine up to 85% of the HP it creates at that lower speed, ensuring that it's adequately loaded and making as much heat as possible.
Good luck with the project, and be sure to post pictures/videos
veggie
Wow, that video was just uploaded 2 days ago, talk about timing. Glad to see someone else using insulation, hope to here back how it works. I'm thinking some rockwool with a nice sheet metal cover, it does look pretty hideous like that.
If anyone gets a chance to read the PDFs Hwew posted I recommend it. Lots of good info in there. One thing mentioned is a very lightly loaded diesel could see as high as 500 to 1 air to fuel ratio. This is a big contributor to the stacking or coaking issues. Think about this, lowering the engine RPMs down to match a light load may actually be better in some circumstances vs running at full RPM with a light load. Veggie mentioned it and I agree, matching load to RPM is something to consider. But what about bearing "lugging"? I think in a diesel it would smoke profusely before and "lugging". Anyone have any thoughts on this???? I don't think it would be a problem but thought I would ask anyway.
My motor is still disassembled in boxes at the moment. I started a new business and I don't have much free time. Right now, I'm building a new (larger) freeze dryer for the business and I don't know when I can get back to the motor. I will post pics/results once it gets going. Plus, its about 30F in my garage right now
If I do go the low RPM route, I would do a once a week full RPM / full load exercise combined with some water injection. The higher air volumes can do wonders to push out soot. We had a Mercedes diesel get stuck in full fuel once in a shop and it ran full RPM for about a minute. It left a pile of soot on the shop floor where the exhaust pointed down. The customer reported back no problems with the motor and that it ran better then it had for years. I'm not recommending anyone try this...lol