Lister Engine Forum
How to / DIY => Generators => Topic started by: Theo Arn on July 03, 2020, 08:49:29 PM
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This is my first question so please be gentle with me!
I bought a chinese diesel generator it's running but.. there are no wires going anywhere. I know they are called L1,L2,R1 & R2 but how ho I wire them to a socket? It's an AVR brushed generator 110 and 240v I only want to use 240v. Hoping someone can elaborate thanks
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hello Theo Arn: A couple of questions. Is the information you got on youtube specific to your generator? There are no sockets build in to the generator, say a normal 120 and a oddball 220 that you can test for power? Why do you say there are no wires going anywhere?
Do you have a multimeter to test for voltage?
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This is the schematic for the generic ST head wiring, may not apply to your head, but somewhat the same idea
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hello Theo Arn: A couple of questions. Is the information you got on youtube specific to your generator? There are no sockets build in to the generator, say a normal 120 and a oddball 220 that you can test for power? Why do you say there are no wires going anywhere?
Do you have a multimeter to test for voltage?
Hi, the information I got is generic applies to brush generators. I worded the question badly there are wires and the video I watched was on how to check if a generator was working ie making power. I have a link below to the video. Generator tests ok however there is a switch missing to select voltages there are 8 or 9 wires that attach to the switch. I was hoping I could just wire it to a socket from the wires in the alternator. Sorry I should have added more information.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC_LrrZcx38
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Hey:
It appears the information you require is covered in the youtube link where he explains the function of the two coils.
Still not understanding when you mention the switches. A switch is missing and there are 8 or 9 wires hanging in the breeze. Or are there two switches, one feeding off the other?
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Hey:
It appears the information you require is covered in the youtube link where he explains the function of the two coils.
Still not understanding when you mention the switches. A switch is missing and there are 8 or 9 wires hanging in the breeze. Or are there two switches, one feeding off the other?
There are a few bits missing from the generator, charging voltage regulator, injector clamp, brushes and the 120/240 volt selector switch. The switch is missing and thats where the wires go. I think I should be able to wire 240 from the back of the generator I just dont know how and I don't want to kill myself :)
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All right so you have 8 or 9 wires that are hanging loose. If your wiring is similar to the schematic that Mike90045 posted. (Thanks for that) This is what I would do.
Others may have a different approach. Feel free to wade in. We don’t want Theo Arn to kill himself.
First get the engine running, rig up a clamp for the injector and what ever else.
There is at least one Internet Company that specializes in brushes. Measure out the dimensions and wiring as close as possible to the brush holders you have and get some brushes. They can be shaved down to the size you need. How they connect electrically would be important. They may need to be contoured to fit the slip rings. A piece of emery cloth wrapped around the slip rings and the brushes sanded to fit.
If you cannot trace the wires coming out from the brush holders connect jumpers to the brush electrical connectors. Don’t have the brushes connected to the slip rings. Apply some voltage to the jumpers such as a small amp battery charger. It would be wise to run your input through a weak fuse. Two of those 8 wires should now have voltage.
What ever you do, do not allow any of those 8 wires to short each other. Make up some kind of holder that well and firmly isolates the wires from each other such as a piece of wood with 8 holes in it. Naturally you want to label the two wires you have isolated.
Now you will be able sort some more wires. Apply the brushes to the slip rings and start the engine. Apply that battery charger to the two slip ring wires you have isolated. Polarity doesn’t matter. You should have two sets of two wires with a voltage that is very close to each other and fairly high maybe even close to 120 volts. Those would be L1, L2, R1, R2 in your mind set. If all went well you have now traced 6 of those wires.
That leaves the two remaining wires that should have a voltage between them. According to the schematic those would be for the full wave bridge that rectifies to DC. I cannot offer what that voltage should be. I would guess around 30/50 volts.
You may have another set of wires for charging a battery. That would be a low voltage.
If there are any electronic black boxes in your system they are beyond me. All the generators I have don’t have that sort of regulation.
To get 220 volts L1 L2 R1 R2 would be run in series as pointed out in the youtube vid. Any problems let us know. One step at a time no smoke.
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So I managed to get a set of brushes connected them up and I have power,120 odd volts on both L2 AND R2. The neighbor I got the generator off had the old switch and he had a diagram of sorts he made so the switch is back on but.. the switch doesn't have any locking mechanism its fubar as you can't select a voltage. No power at the plug which isn't a big surprise. Whats my next move? Thanks for all the help so far
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If I've read ScottP's reply, above, correctly.... you should join L2 to R1; then measure the voltage from L1 to R2. This should be 240v or thereabouts.
Before you do that; just to confirm, your 120v readings are L1->L2 and R1->R2, is that correct? If L2->R2, then something fishy is going on...
Without being able to see details of your switch/socket wiring, I don't think we can diagnose further: Can you take some photos of the switch (front & back), and maybe a diagram showing how you've wired it together, and attach them to a reply (use the "Attachments and other options" link, below the message edit box, when you make a reply. Also, please reduce the size of any photos to something sensible: 800x600 or 1024x768 or similar, thanks.)
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And here is my two cents worth.
Ok, you have 120 volts at L2 and R2. What happened to L1 and R1? The switch you make reference too, what is it supposed to do? Why is it there?
What did the neighbor do with all the other wires? You need to be very clear what all the wires do. Map them out.
You will have either a four-wire or a three-wire system when all is said and done.
You don’t need to go through that “switch” to get voltage to the plug if you are clear as to what each wire is for.
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fuses breakers to avoid smoke. When you connect L2 To R1 run L2 through a fuse and connect to R1. NO SMOKE When ever you are unsure of the results cover your butt.
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fuses breakers to avoid smoke. When you connect L2 To R1 run L2 through a fuse and connect to R1. NO SMOKE When ever you are unsure of the results cover your butt.
The switch selects either 120 or 240 volts its on the front panel above the sockets however the switch is loose inside, it does nothing. I will get some photos over the weekend. some of the wires seem attached to a trip switch or circuit breaker. some appear to be attached to what I now know is a bridge rectifier. There is also a circuit for low oil sensor that kills the engine. It's hard to explain and hopefully the photos will help. Theres not much room or stretch on the wires. Tony the guy that sold it to me said the 9 pin switch costs around 100 so I would like to avoid buying one. Thanks
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If I've read ScottP's reply, above, correctly.... you should join L2 to R1; then measure the voltage from L1 to R2. This should be 240v or thereabouts.
Before you do that; just to confirm, your 120v readings are L1->L2 and R1->R2, is that correct? If L2->R2, then something fishy is going on...
Without being able to see details of your switch/socket wiring, I don't think we can diagnose further: Can you take some photos of the switch (front & back), and maybe a diagram showing how you've wired it together, and attach them to a reply (use the "Attachments and other options" link, below the message edit box, when you make a reply. Also, please reduce the size of any photos to something sensible: 800x600 or 1024x768 or similar, thanks.)
Hi Ade
When I tested the power output L1 & L2 made 120 volts as did R1 &R2. Depending on which way the leads were connected I got 120 volts or minus 120 volts . Connecting R1 & L1 the meter was reading 2 volts. I'll be taking some photos and show what I have done so far. As I have two 120 volts I'm hoping its worth sorting out
Tom
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Well, sounds like you already have a functional generator with much of the wiring already in place. It will interesting to see what the nine- pin switch looks like.
At this point If all it does is switch from 120 to 220 I don’t see why you need it. Curious about you mentioning you got a minus 120-volt when you tested the L1/L2 lead. That sounds like DC rather than AC.
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Well, sounds like you already have a functional generator with much of the wiring already in place. It will interesting to see what the nine- pin switch looks like.
At this point If all it does is switch from 120 to 220 I don’t see why you need it. Curious about you mentioning you got a minus 120-volt when you tested the L1/L2 lead. That sounds like DC rather than AC.
I was getting minus or plus 120 volts depending which way i attached the leads, red to L1 and R1 gave the negative reading and L2 and R2 gave the normal reading. L1 and R1 gave 2 volts
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Is your meter set to AC or DC? Since it's giving negative readings, I'd suspect it's in DC mode. Try in AC mode, and see what you get. If it's a DC generator, I'd expect to see zero volts everywhere, possibly with a flash of "some volts" when you first hook up.
I think we need to make a little table here, as I'm not sure of your readings.... First, please verify (for sure) that you've got AC or DC, then let's see the readings for each cell in this table.
| Red Lead -> | L1 | L2 | R1 | R2 |
| L1 | -- | ___v | ___v | ___v |
| L2 | ___v | -- | ___v | ___v |
| R1 | ___v | ___v | -- | ___v |
| R2 | ___v | ___v | ___v | -- |
| ^^ Black Lead ^^ |
I'd expect some of those readings to be zero, assuming none of the 4 wires are joined.
HTH!
Ade.
PS: To replicate that table, copy the below into your reply, and replace each "___v" with the applicable reading
[table]
[tr][td]Red Lead -> [/td] [td]L1 [/td] [td]L2 [/td] [td]R1 [/td] [td]R2 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] L1 [/td] [td] -- [/td] [td]___v[/td][td]___v[/td][td]___v[/td][/tr]
[tr][td] L2 [/td] [td]___v[/td] [td] -- [/td][td]___v[/td][td]___v[/td][/tr]
[tr][td] R1 [/td] [td]___v[/td] [td]___v[/td][td] -- [/td][td]___v[/td][/tr]
[tr][td] R2 [/td] [td]___v[/td] [td]___v[/td][td]___v[/td][td]--[/td][/tr]
[tr][td] ^^ Black Lead ^^ [/td] [/tr]
[/table]
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I was using one of those meters that automatically detect the voltage and ac or dc. I changed to an old type meter and the voltage isn't steady L1 R1 is between 5 and 60 volts and R1 and R2 go between 50 and 130 volts. I'm thinking the guy selling it knew it needed more than a switch!
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For the life of me, why don't you post some pictures? This thread is going 2 pages now, and makes no sense at all
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For the life of me, why don't you post some pictures? This thread is going 2 pages now, and makes no sense at all
I'm trying to make them smaller
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Ok, I use Picasa
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For the life of me, why don't you post some pictures? This thread is going 2 pages now, and makes no sense at all
I'm trying to make them smaller
Faststone Image Resizer is what you want - if you're a Windows user. It's free to download and use, and once you've got used to the interface (not that hard, and it supports drag'n'drop), you'll wonder how you managed without it!
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here are a few photographs the switch is brown
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Ade, imho this is a valuable thread with wide-ish potential application. Maybe it's a WOK candidate? Cheers
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Does anyone think the AVR on this machine could be failing? Is it worthwhile taking it off and connecting a car battery to the brushes to check for steady voltage?
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NO !
Don't connect a car battery to brushes, unless you want to fry the works. Hundreds of amps there and if there is a fault, you will melt things.
I use a jump start battery pack AND a brake light bulb. The bulb limits the amps that can flow thru the system (wires, brushes....) and helps keep the voltage of the output from going sky high 500v instead of the 240v regulated you should have.
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First problem was battery in multi meter was weak so I replaced it. I connected L1 to L2 only a couple of volts but steady. If you look at photo 4 above theres a green and yellow wire on a connection that comes out on the front panel and there's an earth symbol there so I tried the meter black lead to there but nothing power wise. R1 and R2 connected shows 228 volts which would be perfect if it could be used safely. Connecting R1 to L1and L2 shows 115 volts R2 connected to L1 and L2 shows 115 volts on each. There's an overload/trip switch with the blue and white wires from R1 and R2 going to it, I measured the voltage there and again 228 volts.
What next?
thanks
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I can't believe it took several days before I figured out what the little lightening symbol was flashing on the multimeter for!
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I discovered the red wire from L2 was broken near the switch so it's been spliced and here are the results.
L1 and L2 138v
R1 and R2 131v
L1 and R1 105v
L2 and R2 120v
L1 and R2 110v
There's wires for 12 volt charging wires for volt meter and wires for the circuit breakers I'd like to get rid of them at least the 12v stiff and the meter. The 4 wires Black, Blue, Red and White are from the alternator How can I connect them? I'd like the circuit breaker to work if possible. I don't want to die but I'm prepared to sacrifice an old drill to test it.
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Was hoping to get a good picture of the front panel with all the sockets and switches. The leads connected to the L and R block (first picture) seem to be corroded.
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I took a load of stuff off it switch volt meter etc hoping to leave just the 3 wires to deal with now theres no power. Reading on the internet seems it needs exciting and I don't know how to excite it apart from taking it for a fast car drive and I dont have a fast car! theres extra 4 thinner wires on the alternator I assume they excite it but its beyond me how it works
I did measure resistance
L1 to ground 3.5,
L2 to ground 1.8,
R1 to ground 5.0
R2 to ground 2.9.
L1 to L2 15
R1 to R2 16
I used this meter its all I have the spare one is useless
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Ade, imho this is a valuable thread with wide-ish potential application. Maybe it's a WOK candidate? Cheers
If we (well, Theo) ever gets the damn thing working, then definitely!
Theo - did we definitely establish whether this is AC or DC power you're seeing? Your auto-detecting meter should tell you, I'd think?
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Ade, imho this is a valuable thread with wide-ish potential application. Maybe it's a WOK candidate? Cheers
If we (well, Theo) ever gets the damn thing working, then definitely!
Theo - did we definitely establish whether this is AC or DC power you're seeing? Your auto-detecting meter should tell you, I'd think?
Hi Ade
I was getting 228 AC at one stage then I fckued it up!
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hey Theo:
No you don't need to excite the gen it has already shown that it makes voltage. You probably pulled off the DC rectifier or the power leads, or both. Three wires left on out of nine ??
Your meter probably has a cont or contentuenty function. Using that function you can trace wires by putting one meter lead on one end of a wire and the other meter lead on the other end of the wire and your meter should hopefully make a noise of some sort. So try putting a meter lead on, say L1 and see if you get a noise when you put the other meter lead on one of the wires you took off or one of the wire you left on.
Can you send a picture of the front panel showing all the switches and plugins available on your gen???
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Hi Scott
Thanks for the quick reply. I have added 3 photos one is the front panel one of the extra wires and one of what I think is the problem a rectifier I think. There is no continuity between the main wires and the green or brown wires but there is continuity between the green wires and the brown wires. There are 4 wires coming from the alternator.
Tom
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good day Theo: The following is a copy from you earlier posts.
The switch selects either 120 or 240 volts its on the front panel above the sockets however the switch is loose inside, it does nothing.
Looking at the picture of the front panel I do not see a switch above the sockets. But then that area is not entirely clear.
One of your earlier pictures shows a simple toggle switch to the right of the blue plug. It shows 120 volts on one side and 220 volts on the other side. Can you explain that to us?
Yes, the item pictured last is called a full wave bridge. It converts AC voltage to DC voltage. The DC voltage goes to the brushes,which in turn feeds voltage to the field winding's. The field winding's form an electro/magnet. When revolving, the magnet excites the L and the R winding's. Since the L/R winding's have already showed 120 volts each the bridge is not the problem.
The problem will be correctly reinstalling it back into the system. Show us how you plan on doing that.
From your last post: There are 4 wires coming from the alternator. It sounds like you are you referring to the L/R winding's. You have already established the resistance of the two, check them out.
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Hi Scotth
The broken switc was indeed to the right of the sockets and is one of the things I removed.
I have no idea how to reinstall the bridge rectifier I thought it was for 12 volt battery charging and I didn't make a note of where the wires went because I didn't think I needed it.
I think it's maybe time to move on from it.
There is 8 volts coming from each of the green wires when earthed and about 2 volts from the brown wires.
Maybe someone knows how to rewire the bridge rectifier?
T
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HEY THEO
I think it is probable the battery charging circuit would not be a full wave bridge but rather a half wave bridge. However that’s just a guess. Do you see any other bridges?
There is 8 volts coming from each green wire. I assume the generator was running when you got those measurements? When not running do they have continuity with each other?
Lets say we think the two green wires should be the ones that connect to the bridge. What about the other two wires that were on the full wave bridge? Are they shielded spade connectors like the green 8-volt wires? Are there other loose wires that have the spade type connector ?
The two brown wires seem to have a dedicated plug. Shouldn’t be two difficult to sort out the corresponding half.
Scott
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HEY THEO
I think it is probable the battery charging circuit would not be a full wave bridge but rather a half wave bridge. However that’s just a guess. Do you see any other bridges?
There is 8 volts coming from each green wire. I assume the generator was running when you got those measurements? When not running do they have continuity with each other?
Lets say we think the two green wires should be the ones that connect to the bridge. What about the other two wires that were on the full wave bridge? Are they shielded spade connectors like the green 8-volt wires? Are there other loose wires that have the spade type connector ?
The two brown wires seem to have a dedicated plug. Shouldn’t be two difficult to sort out the corresponding half.
Scott
Hi Scott
The 2 green wires do have continuity when the generator isn't running. Yes the connections were shielded connections. I have a plug thet fits on the brown wire it has 2 red wires coming from it. Should I connect the green to ac and the red to dc and give it a go?
T
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Hey Theo:: At this point I don't see where you have much choice but it looks like a safe bet for the green wires to the bridges AC side. The red wire I don't know/think so.
What you are looking for now is a set of wires that have continuity from the brushes and probably have the same type of shielded spade connectors that fit the bridge.
Take a picture of the red wires that show the type of connectors.
What do the connections for the volt meter look like ? What about the connections to the battery charger and the low oil sensor ?
Here is a copy of a portion of one of your past post. I took a load of stuff off it switch volt meter etc hoping to leave just the 3 wires to deal with now theres no power.
Can you give us more detail on what the wires you took off were connected too,you mention a switch? Would that be the brown box with nine connections?