Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: Tanman on January 21, 2020, 07:20:25 PM

Title: EPA Regulations
Post by: Tanman on January 21, 2020, 07:20:25 PM
Have you guys read this:

EPA Regulations
1068.315 Permanent exemptions for imported engines/equipment.
*** * *
(i) Ancient engine/equipment exemption.
If you are not the original engine/equipment manufacturer, you may import nonconforming engines/ equipment that are subject to a standard-setting part and were FIRST (emphasis mine) manufactured at least 21 years earlier, as long as they are still substantially in their original configurations.

Would the word FIRST there not make it legal to import replicas of engines over 21 year old!
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: sirpedrosa on January 21, 2020, 07:57:27 PM
Hi Tan

"If you are not the original engine/equipment manufacturer"... "as long as they are still substantially in their original configurations"

A replica its not "original" even after 21....25....or more years.

I think you can import a Lister (old iron) CS, JP, FR or other, but.... (see) but not a Listeroid.

But (again) nothing like to ask to your near customs how they read that article...

Cheers
VP
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: basewindow on January 21, 2020, 08:34:04 PM
I read that differently. I interpret it as saying that as long as you are not the OEM, you can import as long as they were first manufactured 21 year or more ago and substantially in original condition.
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: Tanman on January 21, 2020, 09:01:43 PM
I read that differently. I interpret it as saying that as long as you are not the OEM, you can import as long as they were first manufactured 21 year or more ago and substantially in original condition.

Same here, it says if YOU are not the original manufacturer..... not the engine itself.
If they wanted to ban clones and copies of old engines they would have omitted the word "first", so whoever at the EPA/importing is putting the kibosh on importing replicas of engines that were first manufactured at least 21 years earlier is overstepping the regulation. How does this ancient engine exemption not apply to clones?
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: broncodriver99 on January 22, 2020, 01:52:22 AM
I think it means anything over 21 years old is exempt. Not brand new versions of antique engines. Importing original CS engines is not a problem, never has been. I have had to submit paperwork for the ones I have imported breaking down the serial number to prove they were manufactured before emissions regulations were set for their class, which IIRC was around 2006.

It is also a question of what they mean by "first". Engines that have been rebuilt are considered to be and referred to as re-manufactured by the EPA, hence the verbiage about being substantially in their original configuration.

I think the verbiage about not being the OEM is to prevent a manufacturer with a warehouse full of non compliant but antique engines from importing them directly. Kubota could have a warehouse full of "remanufactured" engines that would be exempt and could therefore import as many non compliant engines as they wanted, so they exclude OEM's from the exemption to prevent it.

Speaking of Kubota. If one was to set up shop in any country outside the US popping out "replicas" of older non compliant Kubota designs that cannot meet the current emissions requirements do you really think they would be allowed to be imported, much less in any quantity. I don't think so.

A quick call to the EPA and/or Customs and Border Patrol should clear it up though. At the end of the day it is the officer who inspects the shipment who makes the call.
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: Tanman on January 22, 2020, 03:05:30 AM
That makes a lot of sense. I’m surprised an individual/small business isn’t importing pre 2006 Kubotas, Yanmars, and listers in by the container load. Nos and used engines like that have to be available in large quantities in parts of India and Asia.
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: glort on January 22, 2020, 03:34:55 AM

Im  not sure why there is even concern over this importation thing in the US. Everytime I look on  fleabay there are a number of listers and a good selection of other engines available. Thats not even counting the members here that have new/ reco engines for sale but semmnto rarely sell them.

For what i can see, getting a lister/ roid in the us is NOT a difficult thing at all  and i dont know why anyone would be concerned with the stuffing around and cost of trying to import one when they ARE clearly  available.

Aside from that, there also seem to be a good supply of alternatives like the china diesels and things like  the little multi cyl kubotas and yanmars. Having played with these, i really dont know why anyone would want a roid if they couldnt get an original.

The 3 cyl kubota i have is small and light, very economical, quiet, smooth and has no problems like vibration and would not give flicker . id gaurantee would be better made and last every bit as long as a roid.... after you rebuilt it and corrected all the built in  indian problems of course. Add to that you have 3-4times the power which means you could underdrive it to get it even quieter and less stressed or hook up a bigger alt.

I would suggest people look  at the available engines already in country and the alternatives before getting hung up on importing roids.
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: Tanman on January 22, 2020, 03:57:06 PM
That is a good perspective Glort. I just get bent out of shape when the gov says you can't do something that is harmless and something the little guy wants. I'm literally paying them to tell me no lmao.

*I did have my lawyer look over the regulations and he said basically the same thing that broncdriver99 said.
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: LowGear on January 22, 2020, 07:37:40 PM
Two items:

It reads to me as it reads to broncodriver99.  Much like 25 year old automobile importation.

These engines are not harmless.  They do exhaust rather nasty particulates when operating on diesel.  I appreciate the tempest in the teapot aroma of this stand but just look at the air and water where there is NO or weak Environmental Protection Agency like programs.
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: guest25219 on January 22, 2020, 09:01:28 PM
Two items:

It reads to me as it reads to broncodriver99.  Much like 25 year old automobile importation.

These engines are not harmless.  They do exhaust rather nasty particulates when operating on diesel.  I appreciate the tempest in the teapot aroma of this stand but just look at the air and water where there is NO or weak Environmental Protection Agency like programs.

I was thinking it read a lot like the automobile importation rules as well.

And yeah these engines exhaust isn't great. I definitely was rubbing my eyes, and my nose was running for several hours after I was running the engine with a less than perfect exhaust. Yeah the EPA makes rules that can be frustrating at times. But in the grand scheme of things, they have done a lot of good for the environment, and general health of the population. 
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: AdeV on January 22, 2020, 09:24:01 PM
These engines are not harmless.  They do exhaust rather nasty particulates when operating on diesel.  I appreciate the tempest in the teapot aroma of this stand but just look at the air and water where there is NO or weak Environmental Protection Agency like programs.

If everyone in the US was messing about with an old Lister[oid], then yes - you'd have a fairly major pollution problem.

10,000 of the things in the hands of amateurs isn't worth a fart in space.

I'm sure that, if there was ever a civil servant anywhere on the planet with more than 1 1/2 brain cells to rub together, [s ]he would come to the same conclusion and allow a limited number of annual imports, e.g. on a "not for resale" basis.

Even our godforsaken EU (crafters of some of the most stringent regulations in the solar system) recognised that one could import "an item for personal use" which didn't meet EU standards (for safety, emissions, or whatever). You just couldn't bring in a container full & sell them.
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: glort on January 22, 2020, 09:38:49 PM

Saying these engines cause polloution is like complaining people pissing in a river polloute it. The number and size of the things add up to diddly squat and there are far bigger fish to fry than these things.I'd  like to see what the average run time on the things are as well. Some people run them alot but i think for most theynare a toy that doesent get a whole lot of use at all.

So many many people run them on waste veg oil as well further reducing the insignificance of their output.  I remember reading about the epa wanting to ban model airplane engines at one stage as well. In comparison to the millions of small petrol engines out there, banning some diesels is nothing more than some idiots wanting to justify  their jobs.

No bans on these engines here and the only thing thats a problem with our air and water is caused by bushfires.  Has a huge impact and there is not one thing we can do about it. Every person in the place could own and run 10 of these engines and they still couldnt come near having the effect if they tried to do what the fires do.
Pretty sure the fires in commifornia and other places would be the same.
I would suggest the Uk might have a few of these engines as would the Canadian and i never heard of them causing problems there either.

Always makes me laugh when people treat the air in their country as if its there own and there is a bubble over them so it never goes anywhere else and no one else influences it. Water is a bit different though. Just reading about the deadly polloution in African waterways from all the lithium and cobalt mining for EV batteries.
We have restrictions on refrigeration gasses here that arent available to the public yet you can buy them in the us at any parts store.  Not allowed to vent the gasses either, everything has to be decommisioned and tagged.
Not much point doing one thing and ignoring so many others.

We have that emissions  mentality here  as well with the greenwashed constantly whining about c02 emissions and completely ignoring the emissions of places like china and india whom emit magnitudes more than we do.

Lucky we have our own air to breathe and dont have to share it with them. ::)
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: AdeV on January 22, 2020, 09:46:46 PM
... completely ignoring the emissions of places like china and india whom emit magnitudes more than we do.

I saw someone argue today - with a straight face, no less - that because the US/UK's "per capita" emissions were higher than China's "per capita" emissions, we needed to put our own house in order first, before humbly begging the Chinese to do something.

Never mind that China alone is responsible for something like 30% of ALL "pollution" emissions on the planet. Because there's 1.4bn of them, that makes it OK apparently.

Oh yeah, I read it in the Guardian of course - the UK's official hand-wringing liberal-lefty rag... and annoyingly the only news forum that's both free to use & that I haven't been banned from yet...
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: glort on January 22, 2020, 10:13:34 PM

"If everyone in the US was messing about with an old Lister[oid], then yes - you'd have a fairly major pollution problem."

Yeah, with the amount of people living in apartments like in NY, I imagine the exhaust would get a bit much in these shoeboxes and the buildings.  :laugh:

"10,000 of the things in the hands of amateurs isn't worth a fart in space."

The stupidity of banning these engines when there are so many other things causing far more emissions is moronic.
Anyone thinking banning ghese things is achieving anything at all should google diesel tractor pulling and burnout competitions. Both of which happen in the US many times every single weekend.

"I'm sure that, if there was ever a civil servant anywhere on the planet with more than 1 1/2 brain cells to rub together, [s ]he would come to the same conclusion and allow a limited number of annual imports, e.g. on a "not for resale" basis."

Yes but thats IF they had 1.5 braincells and we know that is an expectation of fantasy in the extreme. They could also mandaye they only be run on renewable fuels as well but banning makes it look like they are achiving so much more to appease the like minded bedwetters.

Thing that occours to me is, if you were  allowed to bring these things in tomorrow, how many people even here are going to rush out and buy one?
I doubt youd be able to shift more than a couple of container loads of the things and that would be if they were lister quality ready to run rather than the rebuild and repair quality of the indian crap.

Again, people right here on this forum will sell you a new rebuilt engine done right but from what i read, they cant find any takers?
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: guest25219 on January 22, 2020, 10:20:54 PM
Remember when people would say. "Lead by example?"

 (https://memecrunch.com/meme/BYB01/pepperidge-farms-remembers/image.jpg?w=400&c=1)

Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: guest25219 on January 22, 2020, 10:22:25 PM
Again, people right here on this forum will sell you a new rebuilt engine done right but from what i read, they cant find any takers?

Get out of here with that logic Glort! How can we get upset and be angry at others when you say stuff like that?
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: glort on January 22, 2020, 10:47:51 PM
that because the US/UK's "per capita"

Yeah, the lefty climate whingers cannot bear to say anything without spin doctoring it and skewing the statistics to makd them say what they want to fit their agendas.
They know that a huge percentage of Chinese are poor village dwelling farmers that emit next go nothing and the billions of them offset the vast polloution the country causes. Got to skew the facts so as to be able to brain wash the rest of the world with their green cult BS.

They know damn well they would be arrested at best and shot as the most likely outcome if they carried on with  their crap there which is why they  only do it in the west.  Try gluing yourself to a ,ain road there like they do here and the police there would also come and remove you.... with a truck and a fire hose for the mess left behind.

We get these loons here all the time. Why they remove them when they went to so much trouble i dont know. Let them stage ther protests for a week. Out in the hot sun, the rain and storms, fouling ther own pants and sitting in it. They tell us hete every time they have a right to protest and although i might not like the way they do it, i think they are right and they should be allowed to do it for a week and no one touch them. Leave them right where they are to get their message across.
I'll bet the nappy rash alone would deter them from trying it again in a hurry and would probably make a few of there green idiot  friends think twice as well.

"Oh yeah, I read it in the Guardian of course - the UK's official hand-wringing liberal-lefty rag... "

Here its called the ABC, our national gubbermint overfunded broadcaster but the commercials all give them a good amount of competition in the virtue signalling dept.  The only  one that tells it like it is is called sky news which i believe is the opposite to the broadcaster you have there of the same name.

I rarely look at the news but i did recently with the bushfires.
I had to stop though. I got so sick of reading about fktard green washed politicians blaming it on climate whinge and the gubbermint for not doing enough, i had to stop reading it before i snapped and took to these morons with a lump of 4x2.

The BS and outright lies they tellis unbelievable and in the face of the loss and devastation, the insult and offensiveness of this point scoring is truly obscene.

God help anyone stupid enough to say anything like this to my face. I have already told the wife I wont be able to hold back and literally made sure she had my solicitor mates numbers in her phone.
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: glort on January 22, 2020, 10:56:07 PM
Again, people right here on this forum will sell you a new rebuilt engine done right but from what i read, they cant find any takers?

Get out of here with that logic Glort! How can we get upset and be angry at others when you say stuff like that?

I know, its just the unsociable type i am.  :(
Did you see where I mentioned other alternative engines like Kubotas?
I hope not. Such blasphemy on a lister forum!  I think i even mentioned solar here once but the powers that be must have been very busy at the time and it slipped through to the keeper.   :laugh:

I have always been envious of the choices and cheap prices of engines in the US.
Even more than engines, with gen heads. Virtually impossible to find here. Myself and other members have not been able to find any you can buy new even ordered let alone off the shelf.
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: dkmc on January 24, 2020, 12:06:55 AM
Let them stage ther protests for a week. Out in the hot sun, the rain and storms, fouling ther own pants and sitting in it.

Great. I spit my low grade malt all over the monitor.
LOL
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: LowGear on January 24, 2020, 09:21:32 PM
Wisdom without end. 

I haven't seen the study where folks that use diesel or wood for heat and / or power have different health outcomes.  Sounds like a masters thesis to me.

In honor of "Catch 22":  "If everyone did it that way then I'd be crazy to do it any other way."

Slightly askew.  When I was about 12 the damn futurists decided to start reclaiming Lake Washington that touches up against Seattle.  There were consistent spots where swimming was not allowed at any time.  60 years later you can swim anywhere in the lake you want except for when the public sewers break.  And the lake is healthy enough to absorb those spills in a week or so.  Same trip on Cedar River - a tributary of Lake Washington.  I drank the water as a kid and had become careful about how I played in the river only 30 years later.  In moves the libratards and now I can see the salmon even in the deep areas.  No I don't drink it anymore.  But then we've got a well now rather than a water line that runs up the holler and catches whatever out of the creek.  That move was the same year we found a VW Beetle upside down right smack dab in the middle of the crick.

And then you see the photos of SE Asia and the sub continent.  Holly cow!  Pun intended.  Makes you appreciate the war on one use plastics.

https://honolulu.craigslist.org/big/cto/d/honaunau-bio-diesel-cooker-plant/7048078605.html (https://honolulu.craigslist.org/big/cto/d/honaunau-bio-diesel-cooker-plant/7048078605.html)
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: Tanman on January 25, 2020, 12:37:23 AM

Again, people right here on this forum will sell you a new rebuilt engine done right but from what i read, they cant find any takers?

I think the main reason listeroids aren't moving is because the demand is dropping, like you said before there are other higher performance modern options (Kubota 2 and 3 cylinder engines) that can be had for $750-1000 all day long. But most folks still want $2,200+ for their listeroid like during the first 10 years of the ban. I would love listeroids to become more affordable for the average guy (one reason I like to look for loopholes in the regulations, more supply = lower prices) they are unique and do what they do well, but I think prices more inline with what we are seeing lightly used Kubota going for would be more realistic. I think everyone got excited when people were willing to pay $3,000+ for a listeroid in the near past, and it's tough when they are selling for less than that today and probably less next year. We will see what the "free" market does I guess.......
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: glort on January 25, 2020, 06:15:09 AM

I think you are spot on regarding pricing. I have always thought listers were overpriced in the US particularly with the range of options available.
I also think listers are over valued performance and longevity wise. No doubt they may have been a benchmark 50 years ago but now, all their qualities i can think of are outdone by other engines. When we talk about  new engines being roids, they they have a LOT of shortcomings that need to be corrected before the things are even run!

From what i have read here in multiple accounts, there TBO hours aren't that great either.
I have seen a lot of things like this where the ledgend far excedes real world performance  and the products suitably over priced.

No doubt the things have a certain charm we all love but as straight up workhorses, I think there are cheaper, easier to get and better performers.
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: LowGear on January 25, 2020, 07:04:21 PM
SOLAR vs All The Time and Trouble
and
Running Costs
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: mike90045 on January 25, 2020, 09:25:11 PM
>  SOLAR vs All The Time and Trouble and Running Costs

except when solar is not:
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: glort on January 26, 2020, 03:03:44 AM
SOLAR vs All The Time and Trouble
and
Running Costs

Solar is far form being without running costs if one is talking about an off grid/ standalone system.

Batteries,  inverters and chargers all have limited lives which must be amortised.
Members here have calculated battery costs over useful life and come up with monthly costs.
The initial setup cost of a solar system is also a number of times higher than the setup cost for a generator.

Fuel costs for a genny are often offset substantially by the use of wsste oils.

I love solar, I just picked up a bunch of 405 w panels ( didnt even know they made them that big and hope to get more tomorrow) BUT, like anything, they have their limitations and proclivities.

I have never heard of an offgrid solar setup that did not have a backup genny but loads of gennys without solar.

For most, I think the ideal setup is a combination. Large solar array, modest charger inverter,  small battery bank, and a very healthy genny that can carry all loads with ease, including things like power tools and welders.

Solar is still going ahead quickly. I bought a heap of 250w panels 6 months ago so i could standardise and upgrade all my smaller wattage panels.
In the last 3 weeks I have picked up nearly 7 kw of  360 and 405w panels, all brand new, all for free. Seem like the 250w panels are soon going to be as obselete as the first 175s i bought  used about 4 years ago.

I have room for the new panels i was saving but as these are all new and compliant i think ill put them up and just replace the others as I go.
Probably going to be a narrow window between the weather being cool enough to get on the roof to put them up and the winter fall off when they are most needed.

My idea is to have a good solar setup in place if i ever want to go off grid and a complementary gen setup to go with it.
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: Tanman on January 26, 2020, 05:40:28 AM
Any tips on where to get panels cheap?
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: AdeV on January 26, 2020, 12:05:38 PM
Any tips on where to get panels cheap?

Australian dumpsters, by the sounds of it!
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: glort on January 26, 2020, 02:20:55 PM
Any tips on where to get panels cheap?

Australian dumpsters, by the sounds of it!  :laugh:

As Ironic as your well meaning sarcasm is Ade, You are dead right!
The last ones I got were in fact stacked by/ in dumpsters.
I have discovered a local solar mob have moved much closer to me than where they were and they are just throwing out these panels which I can only assume are end lots or something, not enough to do a complete install being the majority of systems here are 6.6 Kw or above.

There is a stack, and I mean a stack, of shattered panels sitting there as well.  For an off grid system that was running them singularly ( as they are around 45V Pmax) they would probably be fine.  I have had a couple of shattered panels on my garage roof powering a pair of car radiator fans in the window for ventilation and the things still scream on bright days.  I put one of these large ones on a car fan over my tomatoes to scare the birds away and the thing was screaming so loud it scared the neighbour.  Put a resistor on it and it blew that to kingdom come as well.  Put a smaller  panel up but I'm going to look at the larger panel and see if I can tap off the diodes individulat which should give a lot closer to  the 12V I want.

They seem to output pretty well, I just wouldn't  like to put shattered panels in an array kicking out several hundred volts in case of fractures in the bus bars or water ingress causing problems but they may be fine for all I know. That said, also been thinking of them as a roofing material for a shed.  Bit of silicone between them and they should still be quite water tight and save on the expense of buying Colourbond.  Even old corrugated iron is Valuable here now as trendy Decorative panelling in homes and businesses.

I just did a detour on the way home from a 4 hour drive from my fathers place and there are still a bunch of 405w panels there from the other ones I picked up a few days back so I'll go get them tomorrow.  These are great big things over 6ft 6" being taller than me so I can only get so many in the ute. Should be able to get the rest tomorrow. I think they will pose more of a challenge getting them on the roof.
I bought a linear actuator the other day to make a 3 Point hitch for the tractor and I was thinking I could make a Lift  for getting the panels up to the roof. Other thing would be to Modify my engine crane with electric lift, extended arm and counterweight.

Previously I have been Buying panels from Gumtree mainly. They are also advertised on fleabay here but they want stupid prices there and there is no way to bargain with the sellers.
People almost always ask stupid prices on dumbtree too but after a month of no takers and with some skilled bargaining, they can be had for a song off gumtree and facewaste market site. I often target the people asking the highest prices on those places because I know they will have got NO interest at all and my offers are the best they have had.  Some people will stick to their laughable pricing and advertise for months, others whom really do want to sell are MUCH more accommodating.  The ones I love best are the ones that tell me to shove my offer up my fundamental orifice and then when I get back to them a month later, sometimes with a lower offer still,  the only response is how soon can I come get them.

 I have even seen a definite increase in the number of ads where people are giving them away.  By definite Increase I mean I saw none at all even 6 Months ago, now I see 1-2 a month. Just missed out on about 50 assorted panels  a couple of weeks back because I was at Dads again then too.  Seeing I'll be back yet again in a couple of weeks, I might take a load of panels up there and see if I can sell them. Much harder to come by in the country and I'm really starting  ( well, already have to be precise, ) got way too many of the things now. Starting to look ridiculous stacked up against the shed and must be putting some real side force on it. Not going back to my mental incapacity with hoarding stuff like I did before.

 I picked up a bunch of good used 210W panels the other week from the dumpster. Covered in lichen but that comes off easy enough and I'll have to replace some plugs on them but I keep a good supply of those anyway.
I promised a good amount to Bob to help with his rebuilding but haven't worked out how many he wants and how to get them to him as yet.

The hard to get bits are the inverters. Panels last decades, the early inverters were lucky to last 5 years and here thanks to the wonderfully beneficial ( to me) laws, If an inverter goes belly up you can't replace it.
Well you can, but only with the same inverter.... which being 5+ years old of course are long obsolete and out of production so you have to install an entire new system. This is where pretty much all my panels have come from bar the last lots.

Wondering how many more panels I'll be able to get from the solar places Dumpster before winter.  Bloody treasure trove that Bin.  LOADS of tek screws they throw out, brand new DC switches. loads of rail ( which will be my new greenhouse/ Carport Framework, ) Useful end of roll lengths of solar cable, Boxes of clamps and stainless screws and fittings and breakers by the box full. Not sure why they throw out new breakers and switches, maybe they come in kits and they prefer other brands? I am using them and haven't had any problems. 

Still can't get over throwing out NEW panels but as they only seem to be small numbers, can only assume they are leftovers from Jobs. The ones I have got from what I can see are still current model and available from the suppliers so that seems a bit at odds with why they wouldn't buy more and use them.

Not going to argue.  I have well and truly enough to run 2 different array Strings on a 5Kw in inverter and over clock it plenty. I can put 8Kw per phase on the upgraded junction I put round the back so that is enough if I can overclock the inverters so they output near full power in winter.  In summer I'll just turn some of the arrays off or the whole inverter for a few days then back on to offset what I have used for a day which is about all it needs even now.

The north roof is perfect winter pitch and angle so I think I'll hold off on putting any more on the west roof as I'm stupidly over powered now in summer anyway and put these new ones on the north roof and see how I go over winter. I haven't touched the east roof bat as that is entirely visible from the street. I have no intentions of putting anything there.
 I can roll the winter bill over into spring and catch up anyway so really no problem.

Still going to set up the oil burning heater though as I have pretty much all the parts for it now. Even if I use that just to warm the house during the day and run the AC at night, I think that will enable me to break even on the winter bill  quite easily.


Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: LowGear on January 26, 2020, 05:07:38 PM
Let me clarify.  Solar is replacing generators.  Especially big heavy units that put out less than 5 KW.  I believe it's called a disrupted market.
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: glort on January 27, 2020, 01:31:56 AM
Let me clarify.  Solar is replacing generators.  Especially big heavy units that put out less than 5 KW.  I believe it's called a disrupted market.

I think the real clarification should be that solar may be replacing the USE of generators but not generators themselves.
How many people would have a purely solar setup WITHOUT a generator?  All the sites I have seen that cater to the off grid market and sell setups with panels ALL have a generator included in the setup as surely as they have batteries.
I doubt generator sales are down one bit. They may not be used like they were, but they have not been replaced or done away with.

One cannot practically or economically store a weeks worth of power in batteries but you sure can do it in a drum of fuel with a generator.
The economics becomes even worse if you only have to cover a week or 3 a year of bad weather. Having a huge battery bank for very occasional need is far less practical than having a genny and a drum of fuel sitting round.

What I have seen replaced with solar is engines and windmills for pumping water.  Even in places like India, Solar pumps are taking over well and truly. Diesel engines, windmills and animal power are definitely being replaced with solar pumping. The Gubermint there is giving development loans to help promote it. The benefit is that they can also use some of the power in the home for TV and Radio, lighting and most significantly of all, Refrigeration.

Here in Oz and other places, the Iconic Southern Cross windmills are fast disappearing from the landscape.  A complete new windmill can easily cost $30K. A solar pump can be $2-3K.
In most places I would surmise there would be more dependable sun than wind. As these pumps can run at part speed as well, there will pretty much always be some pumping, except probably when it's raining and not needed anyway.
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: LowGear on January 27, 2020, 05:09:02 PM
The world is transitioning.  There are solar systems without generators showing up more frequently as time marches by.  Just like cars.  If I had suggested 15 years ago that there would be battery powered autos not too uncommon on the road you would have been doubtful.  Today it is a fact.  Ten years ago if I reported that there were battery based solar homes you would have held the same doubt.

I'm offering one of the reasons, a growing one, that our old (technologically for sure) friends are losing their market share and popularity.  Perhaps we could write a science fiction movie about the remaining people being saved by a Lister diesel generating enough electricity to keep the incandescent lights on in the growing warehouse to feed and maintain the circadian rhythms to maintain life.
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: StrawHat on January 28, 2020, 07:42:31 AM
I think many are missing the simple and obvious about why EPA regs seek to outlaw the Listeriods. Our gubberment doesn't want anyone living off grid! Why? Simply put, they make tax money on every watt you buy off the grid. That's it!
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: AdeV on January 28, 2020, 07:59:49 AM
Any tips on where to get panels cheap?

Australian dumpsters, by the sounds of it!  :laugh:

As Ironic as your well meaning sarcasm is Ade, You are dead right!

Wasn't sarcasm - just wry humour :)


The hard to get bits are the inverters. Panels last decades, the early inverters were lucky to last 5 years and here thanks to the wonderfully beneficial ( to me) laws, If an inverter goes belly up you can't replace it.
Well you can, but only with the same inverter.... which being 5+ years old of course are long obsolete and out of production so you have to install an entire new system. This is where pretty much all my panels have come from bar the last lots.


Good effing grief. Just when I think we must have reached peak Government stupidity - along comes something which proves me dead wrong. So basically, the laws in Australia (or your bit of it at least) mean that if a 5-year-old inverter goes pop, you have to rip off panels which would be good for at least another 20 years, because you can't change inverter?!?! No wonder you're finding stacks of good used panels for nuppence. I bet there's a rule the panels can't be re-sold either.

Panels here in the UK are still relatively expensive, and you very very rarely see 2nd hand ones on the market - I think our gov't would rather see existing panels in service as long as possible, and the electrical side being as modern as possible... so no such rule here.

Then again, we get the square root of bugger all in the way of sunshine, compared with most of Oz. We'd be better off with micro hydro systems in our drainpipes I reckon...
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: glort on January 28, 2020, 10:58:03 AM

Wasn't sarcasm - just wry humour :)
 Yes, my description was poor but I understood the tongue in cheek.  :0)

Quote
So basically, the laws in Australia (or your bit of it at least) mean that if a 5-year-old inverter goes pop, you have to rip off panels which would be good for at least another 20 years, because you can't change inverter?!?!

Yes, precisely Correct.
The reason is they keep updating the rules and regulations, under the guise of saftey, so that any system over about 3 years or less, are non compliant for repair or re-installation.
The regs are laughable and a poorly veiled guise to keep the solar industry ticking over when they know the majority saturation is already reached bar newer homes in the main.

The regs cover inane things like mounting points, isolation, isolators, earthing and other things that have never been a problem... Bar the isolators which through newer regs have been a major failure point known to have caused dozens of fires.
The rules and regs are virtually endless but there are a number of well known conflicts... You comply with one part of the regs and you violate another and it's impossible to meet both rules which apply to the same installation.

You are allowed to have 7-10 yo system as long as it is original. The minute you touch anything, you are required to bring it up to current regs.... which is impossible on an old system as it encompasses every part of the system so you are forced to start again.  You cannot have an old system and Improve it with a new inverter which is currently compliant, you have to scrap the entire system ( which covers mounting, electrical) etc and start again.

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No wonder you're finding stacks of good used panels for nuppence. I bet there's a rule the panels can't be re-sold either.

You can SELL used panels, but you can't re install them on a grid tied system... Unless they are  Under 2 YO Atm ( time since latest Regs came in).  You can use them on an off grid system, Provided it is below 90? ( not sure) volts which is classed as a low voltage system.  UNLESS the panels comply to current regs and are on the latest approval list ( which not all panels may be on anyway) you cannot legally install them on a grid tie system.

That makes my system non compliant on a number of fronts.

Firstly the panels are not compliant at the time of install. Secondly, I am not an approved SOLAR installer which is an extra qualification for a sparky and of course entails extra licensing and fees. Many Dodgy companies get around this having back backers do the install and mounting and then having a ( supposed) qualified sparky hook them up.  My mate made the mistake of having a Dodgy mob do his install and the sparky admitted he had 15 Min training.

The system didn't work and 2 more morons were sent out over 3 months before I looked at it and fixed the errors and got at going.
That's not bragging in anyway, it's a concession of the pathetic nature of the people who did the job.  Connecting panels is much like connecting extension leads. The are male and female, they only fit one way but these clowns still managed to muck it up.
There was also the unbelievable mistake of mixing the active, neutral and earth wires on the breakers. They are double sided on the RCD's and that was cocked up.

Pretty sad when the very people they are trying to prevent working on this stuff because they are untrained and unqualified can do it right where the so called qualified people can't .

My systems are also non compliant because of the way I have insulated and isolated my systems.  By insulating parts of it beyond regulations ( safer), they are rendered non compliant. Same as I use double gang breakers on the AC side which also makes the system  non compliant but in fact safer in certain and practical fault situations. I also mount them Direct on the roof instead of compliant railing where each and every panel is earthed..... and so it goes.

Really more of an advantage to me than a disadvantage because being non compliant on anything means I can do whatever I want... and it's still non compliant.  :0)
I over clock inverters by over 100% where the regs specify only 33%. This is clearly an attempt to limit the amount of feed in credits people can get from the power co's. I feed back more than the allowable per phase even though the wiring is actually oversized for what I'm putting through it.

I have odd arrays on an inverter.  Regs say they are supposed to be the same panels, qty and therefor watts/ Voltage.  Makes no difference at all to the inverters but again more of an attempt to stop people upgrading older systems with newer panels. 
They say it's all safety but in fact it's all bullshit aimed at limiting the amount of power can be self sufficient in and get back as feed in credits.

What they are desperately trying to stop is people like me.... People having enough power and feedin to stop getting a Nil Bill or the power company owing them.
Currently you are allowed up to 6.6kw of panels  on a 5Kw inverter on single phase and 13Kw of panels on a 10 Kw inverter on 3 phase.  SOME few people can get a feedback payment from the power co but having a compliant system big enough is a major investment that takes generally around 5 years before any returns start.
Even a 10Kw System where I am would be pushing to do 60Kwh on a good day.  My record is 84Kwh well before summer solstice.

That's not what the power companies want... people whom aren't paying them revenue.

The travesty of wasting  completely good useable  panels while promoting the virtues of renewable energy is just another hypocrisy of the green movement and Big Biz.

I have acquired well over 180 panels now all up and so far to my knowledge, 2 are Faulty.  They still generate good power, however they have hot spots so I removed them from the grid arrays and have used them for low voltage and experimentation.






Panels here in the UK are still relatively expensive, and you very very rarely see 2nd hand ones on the market - I think our gov't would rather see existing panels in service as long as possible, and the electrical side being as modern as possible... so no such rule here.

Then again, we get the square root of bugger all in the way of sunshine, compared with most of Oz. We'd be better off with micro hydro systems in our drainpipes I reckon...
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: guest25219 on January 28, 2020, 11:00:04 AM
Panels here in the UK are still relatively expensive, and you very very rarely see 2nd hand ones on the market - I think our gov't would rather see existing panels in service as long as possible, and the electrical side being as modern as possible... so no such rule here.

Then again, we get the square root of bugger all in the way of sunshine, compared with most of Oz. We'd be better off with micro hydro systems in our drainpipes I reckon...

Just a slight difference in specific yield  ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/VGn6X6M.jpg)
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: glort on January 29, 2020, 07:08:45 AM

I don't understand that chart at all!
It sees to indicate areas closer to the equator get less solar  radiation than those further further away.
It also seems to also indicate  locations of the same longitude can get less radiation than others.
From the way I'm reading it, some coastal areas seem to get less radiation than inland.

Might have a lot to learn but this certainly goes against my understanding.
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: AdeV on January 29, 2020, 01:07:35 PM
From the way I'm reading it, some coastal areas seem to get less radiation than inland.

Coastal areas tend to have more cloud cover than non-coastal; especially if there's hilly/mountainous land close to the coast (e.g. North Wales). So whilst the solar flux (is that the right word?) is just as strong as anywhere else on that lattitude, it mostly bounces off the top of the clouds...
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: LowGear on January 29, 2020, 05:12:33 PM
I can't believe the amount of gain my solar system is putting out now compared to two years ago when we were having VOG (Volcano generated SMOG).  It is amazing.

We face the same forced obsolescence here in Hawaii.  I wouldn't be able to put my inverter on a system seeking licensing today even though being twelve years old it's purring right along.  This regulation is just a door stop the Hawaii Electric Company uses to discourage wider use of solar.  It is not a function of government code.

At the same time if I increase my system size I must switch from a watt for watt exchange program to a wholesale out and retail in program for the existing system as well as the additional capacity upgrade.  The working but older inverter would be Okay for the old system but could not be used in the upgraded part.  Kind of makes you appreciate extra soft tissue paper.
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: glort on January 30, 2020, 09:18:59 AM

Coastal areas tend to have more cloud cover than non-coastal; especially if there's hilly/mountainous land close to the coast (e.g. North Wales). So whilst the solar flux (is that the right word?) is just as strong as anywhere else on that lattitude, it mostly bounces off the top of the clouds...

There is a phenomenon I have seen many times but doesn't seem to get a lot of mention in solar Circles.... Cloud edge effect.

Basically it is the water droplets in clouds concentrating like a magnifying glass, the solar radiation.
You can have a slightly overcast day and the inverter output goes nuts! Clear cloudless days have nothing on the output from the right concentration of cloud which in my observation tends to be high but not all that thin.

Panels usually put out consistent voltage but the amperage varys with varying light intensity.  From what I have seen ( and Cursed) numerous times, is the voltage climbs significantly which also curiously, seems to go through the inverter and makes it push the voltage up on the AC side as well. 

To this end, one can see that for the wattage the inverter is producing, the Voltage it is outputting is way higher than it would push the line voltage up otherwise.
This in turn leads to problems with the inverters tripping out in protection mode from the AC voltage being too high or as I saw early on in my solar learning, can also push the DC side too high if you don't have enough margin there.

I don't get problems from it now as I have changed my setups around to cater for it as it was becoming too frequent and I was loosing too much power but it's a weird and very real if not every day thing.

Still strange to go out on a relatively Cloudy day ( and I have not seen it just from the sun coming out of a cloud)  and see the inverters instead of outputting the lower expected power, absolutely maxed out and producing loads of power.
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: Hugh Conway on January 30, 2020, 10:51:32 PM
@ Glort.... re the cloud edge effect. I have noticed that myself, occasionally in summer. Here in the North Pacific winter ar 50*N, the clouds don't have edges........in fact "clouds" is a misnomer.......it is just CLOUD (as  in one all-encompassing cloud) most of the time! My solar panels are useless then.
Bless the listeroid! It is running right now charging up the battery bank.
Otherwise, it would be kerosene lamps at noon.
Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: glort on January 31, 2020, 05:11:52 AM

 the clouds don't have edges........in fact "clouds" is a misnomer.......it is just CLOUD (as  in one all-encompassing cloud) most of the time!

Yes, what I see is also more a cloud cover than broken clouds. I have watched the sun coming out of clouds and it is not the same. The cloud coverage of the right density, not too heavy, not too thin, causes the output to skyrocket even though the light levels are noticeably reduced.

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My solar panels are useless then.

I have all my inverters at least doubly over clocked with panels.  I get some output on any day, even when it's raining.  Might be 4 Kwh from a setup that does 35Kwh on a normal day but I can always pull 12Kwh in total no matter what.


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Bless the listeroid! It is running right now charging up the battery bank.
Otherwise, it would be kerosene lamps at noon.
[/quote]

There is nothing like the reliability of mechanical generation.
Those of us with solar and particularly those off grid would realize the stupidity of the green motivates dream of a fully renewable grid.
Just  like the sun doesn't shine every day, the wind doesn't blow everyday either. A grid size Lister is known as a coal fired power plant
and without exception is the most reliable, dependable and cheapest form of grid qty power .

Like off grid, solar is great but you are going to need backup sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: mikenash on January 31, 2020, 06:20:40 AM
Quote:

"    A grid size Lister is known as a coal fired power plant
and without exception is the most reliable, dependable and cheapest form of grid qty power . . . ."

I guess this is the same process that is used by politicians - especially during elections years:  Say something moronic, simplistic & inaccurate - but sound definite and informed and demonstrate your readiness to shower words & invective over anyone who disagrees - and most people will either believe you or at least realise that challenging you is more hassle than it's worth.

However:

Down here at the bottom of the world we're sneaking up on 89% renewable (hydro, wind, smidgens of solar here & there, playing with wave stuff etc etc)

If it wasn't for the (depending on the harshness of the winter) eight to eleven days every year when it's really cold & we use lots of power and burn some gas or coal to make up the shortfall, and for the ecologically inefficient but fiscally efficient decision-making of the generating companies (running the hydro lakes lower than optimum while turning the windmills off cos it's more profitable to use hydro than wind)  we could be 100% renewable and with energy to spare

Of course, our situation is unusual in that we're a small, mountainous country with good hydro potential

On a global scale I offer as proof of my assertion the (as of statistics available early last year) the 99.997% of all the electricity ever generated anywhere by nuclear plants which have never had a "leakage" scare, a spill, an explosion, a melt-down, a catastrophe - or anything worse than a bit of bad press

Those are the real cheap, reliable, dependable generators . . .

Just saying :)
Title: Re: EPA Regulations
Post by: glort on January 31, 2020, 09:23:30 AM

Quote
Down here at the bottom of the world we're sneaking up on 89% renewable (hydro, wind, smidgens of solar here & there, playing with wave stuff etc etc)


Another tactic by politicians and those desperate to prove a point is to talk complete and Utter BS by spin doctoring facts so as to make them say something other than the actual reality of a situation.  This can be done  using special circumstances to make their point that are unique and not widely applicable to others they compare them to.

NZ has a large amount of Hydro and Geo which is not found in a lot of places in the world ( although Norway has been 100% Hydro for years) and they also use Bio which is firing conventional steam turbines with wood chips instead of coal.
Bugger all difference of course but gives the deceivers the ability to wave the green flag while still producing coal like emissions.

Typical and predicable.

Cannot for the life of me understand how anyone that promotes nuke power that produces the most deadly, long lasting, contaminating poisons without equal as part of normal operation can do so in good conscious and expect to be taken seriously when saying it is " clean, environmentally friendly power.

Then again, some people will say anything to push their position as being the right one.