Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: tyssniffen on January 13, 2020, 08:58:03 PM

Title: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: tyssniffen on January 13, 2020, 08:58:03 PM
So, in a move that normally wouldn't happen, I re-opened the engine after changing the oil a couple days earlier, and found silver gunk all up on the sides.

It's not magnetic, so that means it's not bearings or shafts, right?  and means it's probably the cylinder jacket... right? 

I've had stuck rings in the past, and fixed that, and she still runs in what seems a normal fashion. 

What am I looking at, and what do I do to fix it?


(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WAfdgSyzkJs/XhzZodXih0I/AAAAAAAAUBo/zqcjHrZahZIX-v45cQ0mmhW3ks80F5sowCNcBGAsYHQ/s320/gunk.jpg)


You know what would be magical? if for some reason the oil I used has some detergent in it or something that is not compatible with this 6/1 gen.  wouldn't that be great?   I used

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6aKnv9Dbwk8/XhzZodr_1vI/AAAAAAAAUBs/sCT7nRdi85Ugv95ir1YvfGpGVDqJBD7AQCNcBGAsYHQ/s320/oil.jpg)

which I've used in the past.  But someone make me happy and tell me that's all it is.



Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: mike90045 on January 13, 2020, 09:53:41 PM
could be water in the oil
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: AdeV on January 13, 2020, 10:36:20 PM
Hm - is the gunk semi-solid, like grease rather than oil? It sure looks like it from here. Water+oil usually ends up as a white emulsion (the "mayo" you get when your head gasket's gone in a car engine). What was the rest of the oil in the sump like? Clean, or full of silver bits?

Non-magnetic silver coloured deposits could be:
 - Chrome (if yours is a Listard bore - i.e. chromed) - I'd say this was highly unlikely, you could pull the head to confirm, there would be extremely obvious damage to the bore.
 - Babbitt material, if you're running Babbitt bearings - pull the big end shell to confirm, it's very unlikely (but not impossible, I guess) to be the little end.
 - Something non-metallic and weird.

Scrape/remove some of the gunk, add some petrol to thin it down & see what happens. In a glass container would be ideal. If it turns to a uniform liquid with silvery bits in, try running it through a filter paper to see what you get.

Is your dipper attached & splashing lube onto the main bearing feed tray?

Did you put magic pixie dust in your diesel to make it run for longer on the same calorific content  ;D ;D ;D? [joking of course...]
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: tyssniffen on January 13, 2020, 10:41:31 PM
Iíve seen water in oil before, itís not just that.

Also, itís not all completely silver/hunker up. Itís kike this silver stuff is thicker, then the rest is still black oil. 

 Iíve never changed any part of the oiling system inside, so I donít think itís suddenly that. Will try other experiments and report back.
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: AdeV on January 13, 2020, 10:48:37 PM

Also, itís not all completely silver/hunker up. Itís kike this silver stuff is thicker, then the rest is still black oil. 


Was any part of the inside of the block painted? Maybe the oil reacted with the paint, if so.
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: mikenash on January 14, 2020, 05:58:00 AM
FWIW I'd drain and clean as thoroughly as possible and put in something like "Morris" type straight 30 and run it and see what happens?

Maybe even do that twice?

Is that semi-synthetic you have there?  Maybe some odd reaction?

Good luck
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: glort on January 14, 2020, 06:05:03 AM
Bearing material is not magnetic.  It it was bearings, big, little end at least with that much throwing off i think the thing would be knocking pretty hard by now.

I have heard that changing oils can cause a lot of dirt and initial sludge but i don't know if that is more fact or fiction. Had the engine run long hours with any sludge before? If you went from a mineral to a synth or vice versa may be something in that.
Wondering if it could be some water and sludge?
Never seen or heard of WI causing this before.
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: gadget on January 14, 2020, 06:22:01 AM
my first guess would be coolant and possible metal mixing with your oil. Are you loosing coolant?

As a mechanic, I have seen gray goop many times with water mixing with oil. Especially when there has been metal on metal rubbing. White goop seems to be more common with condensation from cold starts and not enough warmup of the engine.

Keep us posted on what you find
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: glort on January 14, 2020, 06:27:56 AM
my first guess would be coolant and possible metal mixing with your oil. Are you loosing coolant?


I believe the op is running wvo. If he has been using some wmo, i wonder if it could be metal particles from that?
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: tyssniffen on January 14, 2020, 06:35:28 AM
Nothing has been painted since it came out of the crate (nothing but the shutoff handle). 

I * did* just add some new form of coolant!! But only about half a gallon I my 30 gal radiator....  and I have to admit to worrying about my gasket seal not being perfect. 

Iíve drained it completely and will clean it up tomorrow.  I do t have easy access to other oil - thatís the same sort of oil Iíve used for years... though Iíve only really started to put serious hours on her this year.

Looking quickly at what I drained out today, before it settles, it looks HALF silver?? What the hell?


Coolant leaking into the oil?  That would in fact be mostly good news.
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: tyssniffen on January 14, 2020, 06:39:35 AM
my first guess would be coolant and possible metal mixing with your oil. Are you loosing coolant?


I believe the op is running wvo. If he has been using some wmo, i wonder if it could be metal particles from that?

You are correct - Iím running WVO, but what do you mean ďmetal from thatĒ?  Itís filtered stuff, from a good source. And certainly had no silver look like this.

And, if I did t say before, I DO lose a fair amount of coolant... but itís an open system. I figure I boil off about 2. Gallons (of 30) every 20 hours.  Too much?
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: glort on January 14, 2020, 08:06:57 AM


I meant if you were using motor oil, that may have some metal particles in it.

As for coolant loss, Spose depends on where it's going.  If you have an open drum and it's evaporating, not a problem.
If it's going into the engine.....

I don't know but I would tend to think that leakage from an unpressurised system would probably be minimal. The sump can be under some Vacuum so maybe there could be some pull into it but there is also pressure so.....
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: saba on January 14, 2020, 08:00:15 PM
I think it is fuel maybe because running a cold engine. Or just blowby.
Vegitable oil can give nice gunk.
Regards bernhard.
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: tyssniffen on January 14, 2020, 08:56:21 PM
I think it is fuel maybe because running a cold engine. Or just blowby.
Vegitable oil can give nice gunk.
Regards bernhard.

are you suggesting that my fuel - my used vegetable oil - is getting into the engine cavity and turning silver and gunking up the motor oil?   That doesn't seem to possible to me. 
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: tyssniffen on January 14, 2020, 09:02:40 PM
also, not full report, but I've spent the morning cleaning out the sump completely.   I even heated up some new oil in a pan (it's cold here) to help me completely flush the screen around the oil intake.  (warms the hand as you are flopping the gunk around too!)

Side problem? source of the real problem?

As I turn the flywheel to get the old stuff out of the pipes of the 'oil squirting system' (what's that called?) I notice that it seems like one side IS NOT squirting the oil onto the bearings like the other one is.    The side away from the handcrank and pump has NOT yet squirted out any of the new oil I've got down in the sump. 
Is this a problem?  does that side just need more RPMs to get it squirting over there?   If it hasn't been squirting over there for some time, could all this silver be those bearings disintegrating? 

I will post more revelations, but wanted to ask these questions and say there seems to be so much silver in there it MUST be a chemical reaction.  If it was something disintegrating into powder, the whole thing would have fallen apart by now!
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: saba on January 14, 2020, 10:17:00 PM
Put a small cup of luboil and add some of your wvo
Stir it and look the next day how it turned out.

Your Line is probebly blocket with this gunk.
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: veggie on January 15, 2020, 02:54:34 PM

A product of considerable blow-by of veg oil fuel and oil.
Polymerized veg oil. (maybe some water too).
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: glort on January 15, 2020, 03:07:08 PM

Seen LOTS of Poly, never seen it like in the picture or that colour.
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: veggie on January 15, 2020, 04:44:42 PM

Seen LOTS of Poly, never seen it like in the picture or that colour.

That's the new "Silver Sludge" poly.  Came out in 2019  ;D

I'm suggesting water, Oil, and WVO. And this engine does have a history of water leaks.

There are only 3 liquids in that engine. What else can it be.?
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: tyssniffen on January 15, 2020, 04:58:37 PM
Well, I think I have to report - confess - that I think this is the result of water leaking in from the coolant system, via an improper gasket and my insufficient cleaning out of the old oil when doing an oil change. 

The last 2 oil changes (at about 100 hours each, which comes out to about once a year) I have treated an oil change like a car oil change:  pull the plug, wait, put plug back in, refill.   

In this investigation, I went all the way down to the white paint: I was in there with fingers and rags until every drop was out.  The sludge that I had previously not cleaned out was pancake batter thick, at best.  I did get all the way down and found a magnet in there (did I put that there, or is that standard??) but there was nothing stuck to it.  So, previous changes didn't do half the job it should have.

So, I think the silver IS in fact metallic powder of wear and tear, but caught up in water-infused oil. 

Still, nothing seems overly loose or worn, surprisingly.   This summer, I'll put the head again and attempt another gasket.
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: Blueflame on January 15, 2020, 10:53:33 PM
Looks like coolant to me. I had a 400 pontiac in a jet boat do that from an intake manifold leak but was a little more white color than that. Mine was contaminated by lake water the boat uses for cooling.
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: tyssniffen on January 16, 2020, 02:45:49 AM
Looks like coolant to me. I had a 400 pontiac in a jet boat do that from an intake manifold leak but was a little more white color than that. Mine was contaminated by lake water the boat uses for cooling.

that is great to hear an answer... I'm just scratching my head.   I did try and mix some oil and coolant in a jar and shake it... but it probably has to be heated up or something.     After my extensive clean out, I ran it again for about 3 hours with a load, and took a peak.  Here's what I saw:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LCzt_nxqNGc/Xh_M1tG6l0I/AAAAAAAAUCg/S2t49cXNsgYgJS0ImrqkSqr6vd1QWN0AQCNcBGAsYHQ/s320/oil%2Bat%2B3%2Bhours.png)

weird white-ish, not so silver...     

if it is coolant, I guess I'm done running this thing until I can redo the gasket. 
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: mike90045 on January 16, 2020, 03:39:23 AM
The water will find its way to the bottom, you have to wipe it out, dry with gasoline, flush all the nooks and crannies with 99% alcohol or acetone (to absorb the water) ,and then re-wipe dry with gasoline.

I've also heard that ATF  will suck up water too, maybe wipe dry, squirt a bunch of cheap ATF around, drain that and wipe out dry again.   Then try oil.
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: glort on January 16, 2020, 04:19:28 AM
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LCzt_nxqNGc/Xh_M1tG6l0I/AAAAAAAAUCg/S2t49cXNsgYgJS0ImrqkSqr6vd1QWN0AQCNcBGAsYHQ/s320/oil%2Bat%2B3%2Bhours.png)

Now THAT looks like water to me. It would have to be enough metal that you'd really know something was very wrong.
I dont think you'd get the same result shaking a water oil mix, this is really blended.

Must be a pretty good Coolant leak.
You could try a sealer if you don't want to pull the engine down.  Better to do it right but if you need the thing going atm and cant spare the time......
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: cujet on January 23, 2020, 01:29:55 PM
I think it is fuel maybe because running a cold engine. Or just blowby.
Vegitable oil can give nice gunk.
Regards bernhard.

are you suggesting that my fuel - my used vegetable oil - is getting into the engine cavity and turning silver and gunking up the motor oil?   That doesn't seem to possible to me. 

WVO can cause motor oil to polymerize. I'm not sure if that is what's happening here.

Yes, both fuel and combustion byproducts get past the rings in large quantities. That is in fact what makes the oil black. Air compressor oil stays clean nearly forever.
Title: Re: another disaster: silver gunk in new oil
Post by: gadget on April 04, 2020, 06:01:27 AM
I think it is fuel maybe because running a cold engine. Or just blowby.
Vegitable oil can give nice gunk.
Regards bernhard.

are you suggesting that my fuel - my used vegetable oil - is getting into the engine cavity and turning silver and gunking up the motor oil?   That doesn't seem to possible to me. 

WVO can cause motor oil to polymerize. I'm not sure if that is what's happening here.

Yes, both fuel and combustion byproducts get past the rings in large quantities. That is in fact what makes the oil black. Air compressor oil stays clean nearly forever.

On a side note, depth filtration at a small/sub micro level is suppose to remove long polymer chains(varnish). I know the very large windmills use this for there transmissions oil system.