Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: farmerjohn on January 04, 2020, 09:29:53 PM

Title: DIY Short block
Post by: farmerjohn on January 04, 2020, 09:29:53 PM
Guys,

I have been thinking about building my own block from metal plate.  After a few rebuilds of my listeroid I have enough spare parts lying around to build another one

You can easily buy all the parts minus the block for cheap.  The blocks are next to impossible to find / source for a reasonable price.  Importing new engines is getting harder and harder

I have access to a machine shop with CNC waterjet, plasma and CNC machine

I'm thinking of machining up a simple block which would consist of metal plates around 1/4" or so welded together.  It would be more square / rectangular than the original but all the holes, etc would line up and everything would just bolt on.

What do you guys think?  has anyone done this before?  Am I crazy?  Should I start selling it as a DIY weldable kit?  lol
If the Indians can do it - why cant we?

It would certainly get more guys into the hobby..  What about flywheels?

John

Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: guest25219 on January 04, 2020, 10:26:34 PM
I like the idea. I would probably go heavier than 1/4" steel. Just a gut feeling, but i would be concerned of stress cracks forming around where the jug sits/anchors on the block.

There are a few ways you could do it, but i think the best way would be to weld up the block. Then load it into a horizontal boring mill and machine your crankshaft/and camshaft bores. Then rotate it and machine your hole for the lifters/cylinder square to the crankshaft bores.

This does sound like a fun project, even if it ultimately doesn't work. I think its worth a try.

Below is a link to a book on the history and development of the EMD 567 engines. Those engine blocks were weldments and the book describes some of the issues they had the development stage (crankcase starts on pg. 55).
https://utahrails.net/pdf/EMD_567_History_and_Development_1951.pdf (https://utahrails.net/pdf/EMD_567_History_and_Development_1951.pdf)
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: farmerjohn on January 04, 2020, 10:57:28 PM
I like your idea about the horizontal mill but most guys do not have access to a large mill like that

The plates could be roughly cut to shape on a plasma or waterjet machine and then precision milled in a CNC

If you machine a recess along each side of the main 2 sides (like a box joint) - it can be held in place square while you weld it
Could even make holes for alignment pins or bolts to temporally hold together while its being welded.  Just have to be carful to keep it square

That way it can be shipped as a flat pack kit - keeping the cost way down

These listeroids are not precision instruments..  with some simple planning and careful welding - it can be well enough within tolerance to operate hassle free

Gussets can be added for further strength

Also the bottom end could be much bigger to hold more oil in the sump for greater longevity.  I have another post where I added a pressurized oil system to my roid.  Next time I take it apart - I am going to mount a hydraulic pump where the idler pin runs and use the pumps shaft to hold the idler gear..  then the gear would drive the pump

John
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: guest25219 on January 04, 2020, 11:10:29 PM
I think i miss understood your first post. So you're wanting to ship a kit that an end user welds together?
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: farmerjohn on January 04, 2020, 11:13:37 PM
Yes and or share the plans to allow anyone to build one on their own

Plenty of people would love to have a listeroid  but they are becoming scarce and too expensive to source

But the parts are dirt cheap and readily available

 
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: guest25219 on January 04, 2020, 11:33:41 PM
I think its worth a try. It might help to add some bolt holes to first bolt the block together before welding. As well as developing a specific weld sequence. Metal moves around a lot when you start throwing this much heat at it. That's something that would just come with trial and error i suppose.

I do really like the idea of a crankcase weldment. I just worry people would buy it, do a piss poor job welding it together, then complain that the kit they bought was junk  ::)
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: farmerjohn on January 04, 2020, 11:47:30 PM
I don't see making these in mass so I don't really care if someone does a poor job - that is their issue as far as I am concerned

But with proper design of the parts - many of the pitfalls of welding can be avoided.. 

Chamfers can easily be added to all joints by the CNC machine - along with the box joints

End user would bolt it all together minus the base plate then weld the seams back and forth

Bottom could also bolt to the outer walls to reinforce the structure while welding beads on the outside..  then unbolt and weld the inside..  then replace the base and weld all around.  Then weld on some gussets from the base to the walls

So long as you bolt it up tight against the machined surfaces - it should remain square while welding

Thoughts?



Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: guest25219 on January 05, 2020, 12:20:21 AM
I say go for it and try it. I like the idea of it and think it would be a fun project.

I know i'm being a bit negative towards the welding after machining aspect of it. Its just something i deal with on a regular basis in my day job.
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: veggie on January 05, 2020, 12:50:45 AM
 FYI,
I think you can buy a block from Gary "dieselgman" on this forum. Send him a PM if you are interested.
He has engines and broken down components.
You may be able to buy the block and make everything else yourself.
(If that's a road you wish to take)

cheers,
veggie
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: dkmc on January 05, 2020, 02:20:10 AM
I'm very curious what you've been powering with your engine, that you've accumulated the thousands of hours on it necessitating
'a few' rebuilds?  Please use at least 5/16" or better yet, 3/8" plate steel, and let me know when the kits are available, and I will place an order. I have the welding equipment and Horizontal Boring Mill required to complete the work.
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: snowman18 on January 05, 2020, 04:06:56 AM
Why not cast your own engine block.

DMD Australia - Austin Healey 3000 Aluminium Engine Block
https://healeyfactory.com.au/services/dmd-australia/dmd-aliminium-engine-block-pattern-making/ (https://healeyfactory.com.au/services/dmd-australia/dmd-aliminium-engine-block-pattern-making/)

https://youtu.be/-AbFqU9JKUI
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: snowman18 on January 05, 2020, 04:11:25 AM
Lost foam metal casting.

https://youtu.be/PIFuuxWC9rY
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: farmerjohn on January 05, 2020, 09:21:48 AM
Why not cast your own engine block.

DMD Australia - Austin Healey 3000 Aluminium Engine Block
https://healeyfactory.com.au/services/dmd-australia/dmd-aliminium-engine-block-pattern-making/ (https://healeyfactory.com.au/services/dmd-australia/dmd-aliminium-engine-block-pattern-making/)

https://youtu.be/-AbFqU9JKUI

Because its a pain in the ass and costs plenty more to ship compared to flat packed steel plates

I'm trying to do something that anyone with a cheap welder and basic tools can accomplish on their own at minimal cost

Start thinking rural India...  they make do with far less than us and manage to get by - so can we
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: farmerjohn on January 05, 2020, 09:35:02 AM
I'm very curious what you've been powering with your engine, that you've accumulated the thousands of hours on it necessitating
'a few' rebuilds?  Please use at least 5/16" or better yet, 3/8" plate steel, and let me know when the kits are available, and I will place an order. I have the welding equipment and Horizontal Boring Mill required to complete the work.

I am powering an AC/DC power factor correction power supply that takes my single phase 240 V and converts it to 390V dc at near unity power factor and minimal harmonics

That then feeds into a solar MPPT charge controller that charges my 80Kwh lithium ion battery pack..  the generator is about 350' away from the charge controller..  between the boost converter and the charge controller I am near 92% efficiency..  the PFC power supply makes a huge difference on my fuel usage (approx 15 %)..  before that I was running a simple bridge rectifier with capacitor bank..  but only getting a power factor of about .78..   Now my cheap Chinese generator controller reports a power factor of 1.0 .  I have a constant load of 3KW going into the batteries..  before the PFC correction I had to generate approx 3.9 KVAr..  now for the same 3 kw of load its near unity and I burn less fuel for the same output

I am using an interleaved boost converter operating at 200 KHZ which follows the incoming sine wave near perfectly..  far less stress on my cheap Chinese ST head

you are correct - I will need to use thicker steel..  I was thinking off the top of my head :)

Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: farmerjohn on January 05, 2020, 10:34:46 AM
FYI,
I think you can buy a block from Gary "dieselgman" on this forum. Send him a PM if you are interested.
He has engines and broken down components.
You may be able to buy the block and make everything else yourself.
(If that's a road you wish to take)

cheers,
veggie

veggie - thanks for the input..  I am sure he can supply a block here or there but my point is - the blocks are in short supply and those that are available are relatively expensive..  especially once you factor in freight costs

I want to create something that is easily accessible to the average Joe - allowing them to get into the hobby with minimal cost.

The 6/1 is a marvellous machine that can give you freedom and independence from the state..   more people should have one in their shed... the damn EPA / government makes that a hard option..

Here in Canada for example they just implemented carbon taxes..  I used to heat my house with propane..  it would cost me nearly 6K per winter season to heat my house..  now with the carbon taxes - it adds nearly $600 more per year and each year the tax is phased in to increase till 2030..  I really feel for my kids..  you need heat to survive..  the state wants you to be fully dependant on them..  I prefer the other way round



Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: glort on January 05, 2020, 10:49:38 AM

The thicker the steel the more it twists and bends when welded. There is no possible way to keep it from moving round. You could set it all in a jig and unless it's consistantly welded, minute you pull it out it's going to change shape and alignment.

 The way most people weld, including myself, is not for precision work. Also you would be wanting people to weld long runs and have no pinholes which would cause oil leaks.

Likewise the tolerances may not have to be that great from a mechanical POV but welding a Crankcase that didn't piss oil everywhere when it was done I don't think is a job that could be trusted to Joe public. If they aren't happy with the thing leaking oil, where are you going to stand on warranty? You would either have to wear the costs of sending them another one for the same thing to likley happen and/or you would soon get a reputation your engine cases were shit and you'd not be selling any.

While I understand where you are coming from with shipping and flat packing, I would suggest the only way to get any quality control would be to weld them before being milled so any movement could be corrected and everything was straight and aligned.

There would be a lot you could do with the idea though, taller blocks for more flywheel clearance, greater sump capacity provision for fittings for external oil pumps and filters, 1/2 speed power take offs from the crank etc
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: farmerjohn on January 05, 2020, 11:52:08 AM

The thicker the steel the more it twists and bends when welded. There is no possible way to keep it from moving round. You could set it all in a jig and unless it's consistantly welded, minute you pull it out it's going to change shape and alignment.

 The way most people weld, including myself, is not for precision work. Also you would be wanting people to weld long runs and have no pinholes which would cause oil leaks.

Likewise the tolerances may not have to be that great from a mechanical POV but welding a Crankcase that didn't piss oil everywhere when it was done I don't think is a job that could be trusted to Joe public. If they aren't happy with the thing leaking oil, where are you going to stand on warranty? You would either have to wear the costs of sending them another one for the same thing to likley happen and/or you would soon get a reputation your engine cases were shit and you'd not be selling any.

While I understand where you are coming from with shipping and flat packing, I would suggest the only way to get any quality control would be to weld them before being milled so any movement could be corrected and everything was straight and aligned.

There would be a lot you could do with the idea though, taller blocks for more flywheel clearance, greater sump capacity provision for fittings for external oil pumps and filters, 1/2 speed power take offs from the crank etc

Glort,

If you weld the outside corners first while they are being held in place by pins or bolts - the plates will have a tendency to expand open..  you can use this to your advantage when welding..  if you tack each side and weld each corner in rotation a few inches at a time - the metal will have nowhere to go and will be in constant consistent stress all around..  no warping..  especially with the box joints, bolts, etc

I really do not care about quality control (aside from providing a top notch kit) or competence of the end user..  As far as I am concerned its buyer beware..  follow these simple steps and you will have a short block..  screw up and you wont

Paint the inside with a couple coats of glytol and those shitty welds will stop leaking at the pinholes.. 

What I am getting at here is something that is cheap and relatively easy for the DIY'er to assemble - no complications..  keep it simple just like the Indian dudes who make these

If you screw up - I will gladly sell you replacement parts..  If the parts I ship you are crap - I replace them..  simple as that

Again - these engines can be WAY out of whack and still run fine..  follow the steps with the well machined and easy to assemble kit and you will have something far better than the sand incrusted shit shows that India ships out..  even with crappy welds..

Lets be honest here..  nobody will ever make any money selling these kits..  but if I build one..  I'm more than happy to share the cad designs and more than happy to run off as many duplicates as people demand for my time and materials

John

Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: mike90045 on January 06, 2020, 06:41:41 AM
I'm intrigued.  Build the short block, press in bushings for the mains and cam, plug in the cam & crankshaft, and add the top parts.   And have a drain  hole in the bottom !

What do the cylinder studs bolt into ?  Is plate stiff enough to not deform with diesel  ?
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: snowman18 on January 06, 2020, 11:50:03 AM

The thicker the steel the more it twists and bends when welded. There is no possible way to keep it from moving round. You could set it all in a jig and unless it's consistantly welded, minute you pull it out it's going to change shape and alignment.

 The way most people weld, including myself, is not for precision work. Also you would be wanting people to weld long runs and have no pinholes which would cause oil leaks.

Likewise the tolerances may not have to be that great from a mechanical POV but welding a Crankcase that didn't piss oil everywhere when it was done I don't think is a job that could be trusted to Joe public. If they aren't happy with the thing leaking oil, where are you going to stand on warranty? You would either have to wear the costs of sending them another one for the same thing to likley happen and/or you would soon get a reputation your engine cases were shit and you'd not be selling any.

While I understand where you are coming from with shipping and flat packing, I would suggest the only way to get any quality control would be to weld them before being milled so any movement could be corrected and everything was straight and aligned.

There would be a lot you could do with the idea though, taller blocks for more flywheel clearance, greater sump capacity provision for fittings for external oil pumps and filters, 1/2 speed power take offs from the crank etc

Glort,

If you weld the outside corners first while they are being held in place by pins or bolts - the plates will have a tendency to expand open..  you can use this to your advantage when welding..  if you tack each side and weld each corner in rotation a few inches at a time - the metal will have nowhere to go and will be in constant consistent stress all around..  no warping..  especially with the box joints, bolts, etc

I really do not care about quality control (aside from providing a top notch kit) or competence of the end user..  As far as I am concerned its buyer beware..  follow these simple steps and you will have a short block..  screw up and you wont

Paint the inside with a couple coats of glytol and those shitty welds will stop leaking at the pinholes.. 

What I am getting at here is something that is cheap and relatively easy for the DIY'er to assemble - no complications..  keep it simple just like the Indian dudes who make these

If you screw up - I will gladly sell you replacement parts..  If the parts I ship you are crap - I replace them..  simple as that

Again - these engines can be WAY out of whack and still run fine..  follow the steps with the well machined and easy to assemble kit and you will have something far better than the sand incrusted shit shows that India ships out..  even with crappy welds..

Lets be honest here..  nobody will ever make any money selling these kits..  but if I build one..  I'm more than happy to share the cad designs and more than happy to run off as many duplicates as people demand for my time and materials

John

Have you priced out the steel needed for this project, once you learn the price you'll soon wake up from this delusional dream.

Add in the cost of having those parts laser cut and machining for the cam and crankshaft bearings which incidentally have to be line bored.

If this pipe dream of yours were to bear fruit the line boring would be done after the main case was welded together and possibly heat treated to relieve stress.

The problem with Canadian winters is they're just too dam long and you got yourself a bad case of cabin fever.
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: glort on January 06, 2020, 01:04:19 PM

Have you priced out the steel needed for this project, once you learn the price you'll soon wake up from this delusional dream.

Add in the cost of having those parts laser cut and machining for the cam and crankshaft bearings which incidentally have to be line bored.

If this pipe dream of yours were to bear fruit the line boring would be done after the main case was welded together and possibly heat treated to relieve stress.

The problem with Canadian winters is they're just too dam long and you got yourself a bad case of cabin fever.

Classic!

I Can't see any way to get pieces welded together that are pre bored to line up well enough to get the cam and crank in so they don't destroy bearings, Seals or just bind up completely.
These may not be F1 engines but they still need to have tolerances set up to thousandths of an inch.
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: farmerjohn on January 06, 2020, 01:40:29 PM

Have you priced out the steel needed for this project, once you learn the price you'll soon wake up from this delusional dream.

Add in the cost of having those parts laser cut and machining for the cam and crankshaft bearings which incidentally have to be line bored.

If this pipe dream of yours were to bear fruit the line boring would be done after the main case was welded together and possibly heat treated to relieve stress.

The problem with Canadian winters is they're just too dam long and you got yourself a bad case of cabin fever.

Lol you gave me a good laugh about the cabin fever - perhaps you are right

I stated this thread to discuss the possibilities and to figure out the engineering - not to just stomp on the idea because its hard to do

I own all of the equipment that you mention..  I do not have to get it sent out.. all it will cost me is my spare time and materials.  Also I did not say it was going to be cheap

Help me engineer solutions to the inherent problems before claiming its a waste of time

For example - tapered roller bearings can handle slight misalignments up to 0.008" - we have full control over the design - the listeroid bearing mounts could have a little bit of play built into the mounting holes on the case to allow for field alignment

Self aligning ball bearings can be used for the camshaft:
https://www.skf.com/ca/en/products/bearings-units-housings/ball-bearings/self-aligning-ball-bearings/index.html

These engines do not need micron level tolerances..  Before rebuilding my engine that had 10,000 some odd hours on it - the camshaft bushings were all wallowed out and the cam was more or less free floating.  It thumped along just fine for many thousands of hours non-stop

I'm not saying we just throw all tolerances out the window - but there is more wiggle room here that can be engineered around

Before you bash the idea - think about solutions..  We know the holes are not going to perfectly line up - we can agree on that and that is set in stone.  So what can be done to the design to mitigate those issues in the field?

John
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: dkmc on January 06, 2020, 03:14:59 PM
John
There's a laser shop in Lockport I use from time to time. They are very reasonable and do good work. If you ever developed a set of drawings, I'd have them price the job. They can cut up to 1/2" steel I believe.

And a Snowman stopped by with a bit of heat to warm the winter a tad. Festive.
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: farmerjohn on January 06, 2020, 03:36:02 PM
John
There's a laser shop in Lockport I use from time to time. They are very reasonable and do good work. If you ever developed a set of drawings, I'd have them price the job. They can cut up to 1/2" steel I believe.

And a Snowman stopped by with a bit of heat to warm the winter a tad. Festive.

Thats the spirit! 

I appreciate that but I have in house equipment and staff to help out - I own part of a CNC machine shop

I most likely have enough scrap metal laying around to build a prototype

This project (if it even gets off the ground) is for fun and to expand the options available to the community

If / when it comes to drawing up a design - the plan would be to share it so anyone can do it on their own and or modify it

Thanks

John
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: farmerjohn on January 06, 2020, 03:42:05 PM
I'm intrigued.  Build the short block, press in bushings for the mains and cam, plug in the cam & crankshaft, and add the top parts.   And have a drain  hole in the bottom !

What do the cylinder studs bolt into ?  Is plate stiff enough to not deform with diesel  ?

It cant be no worse than the melted cast iron frying pans that the Indians are churning out!  lol

I've drilled holes into my cast iron block and its full of porosity and flaws.  Holes were patched with body filler and paint at the factory

The top plate could be thicker or doubled up and the studs would thread in..  a locking nut could be added to the bottom side for further strength

I don't see an issue
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: veggie on January 06, 2020, 04:55:26 PM

farmerjohn,

I too am in Canada. I am quite interested to follow your progress on this project.
As you stated, the engine is a marvelously simple and reliable design.

carry on !

veggie
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: Johndoh on January 08, 2020, 07:16:50 PM
Hi John

I can prove to you, on paper, that bumble bees cant fly. It's doesn't stop them flying and occasionally stinging someone.
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: xyzer on January 08, 2020, 11:39:33 PM
Not that I would .I would buy 3/4" anyway aluminum plate waterjet finished sections, CNC mill each section, machine fastenings, dowel pin, mounting holes, TRB races, with O-ring groves and bolt it up! No boring mill needed anyway. Welding would work on anything but involves another line of work and attack.... in theory you could get waterjet parts within +/-.010, and finish it on a Bridgeport.
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: dkmc on January 09, 2020, 02:34:12 AM

Actually, you could use 'military grade'  'billet' aluminum. Build it light, but strong. Then mount in in a streamliner, haul it to Bonneville, and set some record in the worlds only Listeroid powered automobile. Even that wouldn't quash the naysayers I'm thinkin.


Not that I would .I would buy 3/4" anyway aluminum plate waterjet finished sections, CNC mill each section, machine fastenings, dowel pin, mounting holes, TRB races, with O-ring groves and bolt it up! No boring mill needed anyway. Welding would work on anything but involves another line of work and attack.... in theory you could get waterjet parts within +/-.010, and finish it on a Bridgeport.
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: snowman18 on January 09, 2020, 04:06:46 AM
Guys,

I have been thinking about building my own block from metal plate.  After a few rebuilds of my listeroid I have enough spare parts lying around to build another one

You can easily buy all the parts minus the block for cheap.  The blocks are next to impossible to find / source for a reasonable price.  Importing new engines is getting harder and harder

I have access to a machine shop with CNC waterjet, plasma and CNC machine

I'm thinking of machining up a simple block which would consist of metal plates around 1/4" or so welded together.  It would be more square / rectangular than the original but all the holes, etc would line up and everything would just bolt on.

What do you guys think?  has anyone done this before?  Am I crazy?  Should I start selling it as a DIY weldable kit?  lol
If the Indians can do it - why cant we?

It would certainly get more guys into the hobby..  What about flywheels?

John
[/quote]

Thats the spirit! 

I appreciate that but I have in house equipment and staff to help out - I own part of a CNC machine shop

I most likely have enough scrap metal laying around to build a prototype

This project (if it even gets off the ground) is for fun and to expand the options available to the community

If / when it comes to drawing up a design - the plan would be to share it so anyone can do it on their own and or modify it

Thanks

John
[/quote]

I own a box full of mixed tools but that doesn't mean I'm any more of a mechanic than you are an engineer of a machinist.

The Indians make clones because they got a hold of original drawings of the Lister engines. Just like the Chinese managed to do.

The problem with clones is that anyone can purchase the patterns used for the castings, then you end up with dozens of back yard type foundry's producing castings.

And there is no quality control on the metallurgy which can range from recycled machine cast down to the lowest grades stove and sewer cast.

When I was a kid we scoffed at merchandise coming into a country made in Japan, we called it Jap Scrap. The Japaneses now make some of the finest quality cars along with a plethora of other export goods.

All produced by ISO certified shops.

The original Lister's and Petter engines are built heavy for a reason, my 15 hp Petter tips the scale well over 500 pounds Date of manufacture mid 1970"s engine probably has 10,000 hours in the clock.

And still runs like a cheap old Timex watch takes a liken and keeps on ticking.

You have a desire to market an unproven package, I suggest you build your engine then put some hard working hours on it.

The S.A.E. ( Society of Automotive Engineers ) sets standards. Before the SAE came into existence engine parts were made by a blacksmith and a dam water pump from the same year and model engine would not interchange.

I view your engine as an orphan.

In the meantime I'm not buying into this BS you peddling.

An Introduction to Engine Testing and Development

This book presents the basic principles required for the testing and development of internal combustion engine power train systems, providing the new automotive engineer with the basic tools required to effectively carry out meaningful tests.

With useful information for graduate students, new test technicians, and established engineers, this book explains the test process - from setting up a dynamo meter test facility to testing for performance and durability. Combustion analysis and emissions, and new test trends are also covered.

Author: Richard D. Atkins
Publisher: SAE International
Specs: Published by SAE International with a Product Code of R-344, ISBN of 978-0-7680-2099-1, and 308 pages in a hardbound binding.





Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: dkmc on January 09, 2020, 04:31:36 AM

sNOman, may I call you Nellie? You're such a NEGATIVE Nellie. I'm really cornfused as to why it would concern you if the idea is sound. Has anyone twisted your arm and demanded payment from you?
By guess and by gosh, anyone attempting this exercise with any care above that which the Indians have given the subject, should by rights succeed by (at least) leaps and bounds over their careless designs.   
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: snowman18 on January 09, 2020, 05:56:21 AM

sNOman, may I call you Nellie? You're such a NEGATIVE Nellie. I'm really cornfused as to why it would concern you if the idea is sound. Has anyone twisted your arm and demanded payment from you?
By guess and by gosh, anyone attempting this exercise with any care above that which the Indians have given the subject, should by rights succeed by (at least) leaps and bounds over their careless designs.

Instead of blowing hot air build a prototype then put some dyno hours on it, come back and show us the data output.

Your right no one has solicited any funds from me personally but several forum members have stepped up to the plate. In my opinion they would be buying the pokes nose.

If you really have half ownership in a fully equipped machine shop you would know it's the front end employees who keep the wheels in motion.

Have your go to guy do an estimate for materials and machining plus time to weld everything, together.

Back in the old days when stick welding was the thing any welder estimating a job knew exactly how long it took to remove a stub and insert a fresh welding rod. Time is money and this was factored into the estimate.

Instead of what ifs give us some real data, there's a big difference between gobbing bird shit and a really nice bead with no porosity.

I believe at one point to suggested painting the inside of the engine block with several coats of Glibcoat to seal pinholes from poor welds.

Do you have any clue how much a gallon this paint cost.



Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: mikenash on January 09, 2020, 08:06:17 AM
If you had a precision-cut, dowel-and-pin type fit, bolt-together construction imho that would be more do-able

Imagine a structure that basically hung on three sections:

Two vertical side-pates with cutouts and threaded holes to take TRB crank, cam etc bearings - maybe ex M12?  And a horizontal top section, relatively small in cross-section so it wouldn't have to be too heavy, with re-inforced areas where the barrel/head tie-down studs thread in and where it abuts/is fastened to the vertical pieces

After all, the rotational loads are balanced, and the power output is only a handful of kW, and, while there's a lot of torque - there's not a LOT of torque

Think, for example, how light the alloy case of a 200 BHP, 13,000 RPM Yamaha R1 or GSX-R1000 is - it's not about material mass, it's about understanding the loads & applying good engineering design principles
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: AdeV on January 09, 2020, 08:07:04 AM
Right - let's try to keep this polite shall we? It's entirely possible to get your opinion across without effing and jeffing or calling people liars/bullshitters/etc.
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: dkmc on January 09, 2020, 08:28:05 AM
I for one, am welcoming ANY traffic on this forum. Hasn't been much really in recent years. Welcome the debate, discourse, and doubters. Really hoping for a come back to the off-gridders, the modders, and the out-of-the-box free thinkers. Maybe here comes a turn around? Back to where we never was?
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: sirpedrosa on January 09, 2020, 01:08:56 PM
Hi AdeV

It was a matter of time... here we go again!

Now, for all members, I ask you kindly if anyone has a internal shematics of a bosh dynastarter 0 010 350 00.

Cheers
VP
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: guest25219 on January 09, 2020, 03:39:19 PM
Maybe this will be inspiring. Spent 15 or so minutes and modeled up an engine block just going off of photos (so things aren't to scale). I tried to model it in a way that someone with minimal shop access could do it. I'll also explain how i would go about trying to machine this. I should mention, IN THIS WRITE UP, I AM GLOSSING OVER A TON OF HOMEWORK YOU NEED TO DO REGARDING DIMENSIONS!!! Each plate is half inch thick steel. All welds are 3/8" fillet welds. Laser/plas/waterjet (whichever poison you prefer) your 6 plates. This is your chance to cut out the major geometry, don't worry about any threaded holes yet.

(Beer break)

Take your plates and weld them together. Now don't just go blasting welds at it. Now take your time with this. This isn't a race, go slow, take frequent beer breaks, weld short bead lengths, working around the block at different times to keep your heat even.

(Beer break)

(optional but recommended step)-Find a shop with a heat treat oven and have the weldment stress relieved. Or find an appliance store with an old stove. And convert it into your stress relieving oven. To do that just watch/copy this guy (https://youtu.be/lMi1P-J-nmY)

(Beer break)

(Disclaimer...I'M NOT A MACHINIST!)
Next set your big steel block (this weldment will weigh around 100lbs) onto your knee mill with one of the sides (sides=plates with two big round holes) facing up. I would set this beast on some 123 blocks. I would indicate across the top and and shim it until its as close to zero runout as possible. Clamp er down...

(Beer break)

Take a shell mill, fly cutter, small file wielding army of ants, etc. and mill the area around the crankshaft/camshaft holes flat. Then punch your threaded holes for everything.

(Beer break/spray for ants)

Flip the thing over and set the milled surface on the 123 blocks and repeat everything on this side.

(Beer break, and did i mention I'M NOT A MACHINIST!!!)

Set the block upright square everything up by indicating off one of the sides you just milled. Mill the top flat. and then punch your threaded holes.

(bonus round)

Flip the block so its upside down with the milled top facing down on some 123 blocks. Now mill the bottom down until you are taking material off evenly all around it.

After all this go online, and do a long write up about what you did so everyone can tell you how you did it wrong and how you're the worst machnist in the world  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/4cMLRJq.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/WYTUXfr.jpg)

Hopefully this helps with this discussion.  :D
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: mikenash on January 09, 2020, 05:15:35 PM
Primo!

FWIW I would suggest some reinforcement at the big top threads.  Simply on the basis that for longevity a thread should be, minimum, the depth of its diameter plus a turn or two

Cheers
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: guest25219 on January 09, 2020, 05:30:29 PM
FWIW I would suggest some reinforcement at the big top threads.  Simply on the basis that for longevity a thread should be, minimum, the depth of its diameter plus a turn or two

You're absolutely correct! Thanks for pointing that out!
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: Willw on January 09, 2020, 06:42:01 PM
Very interesting discussion, I say if you have the will, the means and can afford it ,why not give one or two a try?

The way I see it, and I'm speaking about prototype stage here, you might fail but so what? Analyze what went wrong and try again.
Another possibility, you end up with a working only-one-in-the-world Darth Vader type engine. What a conversation piece and advertisement for your fabrication shop!
Third possibility, you figure it all out and are successful. Cool.

Have a read of this similar discussion from back in the day https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=1844.0 (https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=1844.0)
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: dkmc on January 09, 2020, 09:52:47 PM

Very nice effort Sirloin! A horizontal mill would come in handy, but I get that many don't have them. I suppose nuts could be installed on the cylinder studs inside the case for added strength. If there's room? This doesn't seem so difficult of a project, but then again they never do until you're into it. I build some things using the 'engineering on the fly' approach, and usually don't get bit to bad most times. Going slow, and planning each next move helps. This seems like a fun project, it would be a unique conversation piece for sure. 
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: George A on January 22, 2020, 02:43:12 AM
The idea of a welded assembly is always tempting, but you run into many of the problems already mentioned. Without a water jet and accurate, controlled cutting/welding the quality might be spotty at best.

Has anyone given any thought to just casting raw blocks? There are foundries operating in the Amish areas of this country that turn out excellent work for a decent price. All you'd need is an existing block so a pattern can be made, pour the castings and have machining done afterwards to accept the Indian parts.

There MIGHT be a problem if the EPA determines that you are a "manufacturer" and decides to clamp down, but if only a few are made at a time for "hobbyists" I really don't see a problem.

Okay...........that was my two bits worth.  ;)
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: glort on January 22, 2020, 03:38:28 AM
Are the Amish casting blocks and if so would they sell them?
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: guest25219 on January 22, 2020, 11:28:10 AM
There are foundries operating in the Amish areas of this country that turn out excellent work for a decent price. All you'd need is an existing block so a pattern can be made, pour the castings and have machining done afterwards to accept the Indian parts.

All the Amish in my area are either in the carpentry trade, or working in welding shops/trailer factories. Kinda wish we had a foundry nearby that was ok with the little onsy twosy stuff. Smallest foundry near me still prefers quantities in the 100's.
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: dkmc on January 22, 2020, 03:55:00 PM


Cat Tail Foundry
Address: 167 W Cattail Rd, Gordonville, PA 17529
Phone: (717) 768-7323

If you google them you can read about many happy customers stories.
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: George A on January 23, 2020, 09:47:54 PM
That's the one. It sure couldn't hurt to submit either a scaled drawing or......better yet.......a complete block for an estimate. They'd have to make a wooden pattern and pour a casting, so the cost would be in that pattern and the amount of iron required.

Then there's the machining time on top of that, BUT you would have a genuine "made in USA" product. Enough calls for such a piece would bring the cost down.
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: dkmc on January 23, 2020, 10:11:25 PM
It would be interesting to see a price quote from Cat Tail. In reality, I don't think there's much demand or interest as far as sales goes. Probably have a hard time selling 5 of the blocks in 5 years. I mean, who needs one? If someone has a block, they likely have a complete engine. Other than it's the major missing piece in the pile of most other easily obtainable and low cost parts. The one other piece I don't see readily listed on the spare parts web pages is Crank Shafts. Very few folks using these engines on a daily basis for 'work' I'd speculate.
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: snowman18 on January 24, 2020, 12:50:50 AM
If I were going to have an engine block cast at a foundry would make the rounds to the shops that work on highway rigs and farm equipment shops.

Collect enough scrap cylinder liners to cast an engine block.

I'm running two garden sized tractors made in the mid 1970's both have Onan engines that have never been opened up, a third engine that was seized from neglect not so much as a ridge on either cylinder bore.

The cast iron used was superior, and you paid a premium for an Onan.

Below is reference to diesel engine cylinder liners.

The liner can be manufactured using a superior material to the cylinder block. While the cylinder block is made from a grey cast iron, the liner is manufactured from a cast iron alloyed with chromium, vanadium and molybdenum.
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: glort on January 24, 2020, 02:34:23 AM

Wasn't the original ideas to have a flat pack for shipping economy?
One would want to compare the cost and benifits of importing a block against having one made locally in limited numbers.
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: snowman18 on January 24, 2020, 03:13:41 AM
Guys,

I have been thinking about building my own block from metal plate.  After a few rebuilds of my listeroid I have enough spare parts lying around to build another one

You can easily buy all the parts minus the block for cheap.  The blocks are next to impossible to find / source for a reasonable price.  Importing new engines is getting harder and harder

I have access to a machine shop with CNC waterjet, plasma and CNC machine

I'm thinking of machining up a simple block which would consist of metal plates around 1/4" or so welded together.  It would be more square / rectangular than the original but all the holes, etc would line up and everything would just bolt on.

What do you guys think?  has anyone done this before?  Am I crazy?  Should I start selling it as a DIY weldable kit?  lol
If the Indians can do it - why cant we?

It would certainly get more guys into the hobby..  What about flywheels?

John

You'll never convince me, for the following reasons.

Castings vs. Weldments/Fabrications

    One common method is to convert a welding (fabrication) into a sand casting.  The major consideration in cost saving is labor time.  The amount of time that can be saved by converting to a casting varies on: the alloy being converted, amount of welding spots, assembly time, and the total amount of pieces to be combined.  Other than total labor time saved; a major factor is the mechanical properties that a casting provides.

    A common problem in weldments is durability due to strength concerns where the pieces are welded together.  To combat such problems, engineers turn to castings to increase strength (among several other mechanical properties) due to the uniformity of pouring a casting.  It is important to note that the quantities have to justify the conversion and may not be right for each situation.  To the right is a picture of a casting that converted from a fabrication.

Benefits of Converting a Weldment to a Casting

    Overall Less Labor Time
    Time Until Part is Ready
    Better Mechanical Properties
    Better Appearance


http://info.cpm-industries.com/blog/bid/178199/Reducing-Costs-Converting-Weldments-into-Castings (http://info.cpm-industries.com/blog/bid/178199/Reducing-Costs-Converting-Weldments-into-Castings)
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: snowman18 on January 24, 2020, 03:33:10 AM
Imagine the time it would take to produce a few hundred gears on a cnc machine, powder metallurgy is the future.

Gear hobbing will soon be a thing of the past.\

Power Metallurgy
https://youtu.be/s1TGXa3pB5M

Gear Hobbing
https://youtu.be/fMxKMLIDkqo?t=23
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: Tanman on January 28, 2020, 10:52:33 PM

veggie - thanks for the input..  I am sure he can supply a block here or there but my point is - the blocks are in short supply and those that are available are relatively expensive..  especially once you factor in freight costs

I want to create something that is easily accessible to the average Joe - allowing them to get into the hobby with minimal cost.

The 6/1 is a marvellous machine that can give you freedom and independence from the state..   more people should have one in their shed... the damn EPA / government makes that a hard option..

Here in Canada for example they just implemented carbon taxes..  I used to heat my house with propane..  it would cost me nearly 6K per winter season to heat my house..  now with the carbon taxes - it adds nearly $600 more per year and each year the tax is phased in to increase till 2030..  I really feel for my kids..  you need heat to survive..  the state wants you to be fully dependant on them..  I prefer the other way round

Amen to all that! I have found it difficult to get one of these built on a budget, I like the Idea of starting with my own block and piecing it together over the course of a year or so. I love the idea and I think one thing that could help out the community would be to get younger folks (20's and teenagers) like myself into the hobby, to increase demand and supply and get more of these around!
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: mike90045 on January 29, 2020, 05:35:54 AM
Maybe coming up with a 3D printing master data file, print your block in plastic, and use it as a lost wax style mold master.  All the proper blending of corners and reinforcement webs for mounting feet, sprues, vents and such could be cast right in. 
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: glort on January 29, 2020, 07:01:36 AM
I love the idea and I think one thing that could help out the community would be to get younger folks (20's and teenagers) like myself into the hobby, to increase demand and supply and get more of these around!

I think that is wishful thinking.
Every engine show I got to is a well aged Sausage Fest.
VERY few young people, a few suffering women looking bored out their brains but accompanying husbands who drag them along.

I know a god number of young people, I can't think of any whom would be remotely interested in these things.  More over, I can't see WHY they would be interested in them.
People like yourself are a VERY rare breed these days.

At the local engine show I go to very regularly I see a few thousand people there, Maybe 100 exhibitors.  I know of 2 young people there I see every time.  One guy is in his 20's and has a much younger brother and the father owns some machines.
The young guys do have a Modified V8 tractor with a 351 in it and an Armored Personnel carrier though! :0)

Other than them I see Very few young people.  So many other interesting things for them to be interested in these days.  Games, computers, cars, girls.  Hard to compete with those tings although the smarter ones amoungst us probably stuck with an interest in old Iron than young women.

No matter how cantankerous or how much money you spend on an engine, still less trouble and far cheaper than getting involved with those soft, warm, nice smelling things.
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: dkmc on January 29, 2020, 07:36:24 AM
That is interesting. Because back in the 1990's, (I have been attending 'Engine shows' since about 1985-ish) I noticed VERY few women. It seemed strange. And the ones that were there were well past 50. Once in awhile there was the out-of-place 20-something-pretty good looking girl. Rare. I was convinced the world was DOOMED. Now-a-days, for the last 15? years, there has been a steady, and lately HUGE increase in family as well as the 20-30-something crowd. The Boyz and their women. Short-shorts and Tank tops included. It's a 'strange' sight.....why would these young people be remotely intrested in all this rusty old junk??
Dunno........but REALLY glad to see this new trend, with the scenery that goes with it....
Yes, I'm guess I'm qualified as a 'dirty old man' these years.
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: glort on January 29, 2020, 08:48:27 AM

I agree, very interesting.
I have seen the families, no two ways about that.  The parents with the Kiddies about 3-10 yo mainly but certainly not very many of the 20's with the girlfriends..or on their own.  Very rare occasions but not many.  They and the families also tend to be at the Big shows where there are things like rides and a bunch of steam engines rather than just engine shows themselves.

I wonder if there are cultural perceptions that are behind the differing interests? The shows I go to are more city based even though the die hards travel from all over but it may be you are seeing more country based events? That would account for some differences I would think.

You reckon you are a Dirty old man?  You should feel how I do!

My main expertise as a photographer is glamour work, specifically figure and nudes.  I'm shooting more women younger than my daughter these days than not.  Embarrassing when you are making conversation about things like they happened yesterday only to recall it happened before they were born.

It does play on my mind these days and I wonder and worry about the perception people might have. With the overt PC mentality these days and the presumption every guy out there is some pervert or weirdo, I feel constantly like I'm being looked at with suspicion.
That said, I am coming across more girls that are conscious of what they show in pics and may not even want to do anything topless but then decline to use the change room and will strip down butt naked and casually have a chat to you with no hurry to put their gear back on.  My wife says don't worry about it, its an indicator they trust and are comfortable with you.  Maybe but still seems odd.


 The girls I work with all give me glowing testimonials and recommendations but I have also seen many times distinct suspicion at the beginning I never saw years ago when I was older but not their fathers age. I have also seen distinct trends in girls wanting to work with younger, trendier guys even though these same people will concede their work is not well liked and, to my confusion, the fact that they will still want to work with people with bad reputations but popular on social media through their own self inflating BS.

The biggest thing by far that makes me question my longevity in this business is the complete and utter unreliability of people these days. I don't know how these 18-30 yo girls hold a job.  I'm up to the 30's of people I have booked, confirmed and either pull out at the very last minute or don't show at all since beginning of November.  I book, confirm 3 days out and then the day before and still get no shows and insulting lame excuses the bimbos were giving me literally before these reliables  were even born. They think they are the first one to use this and the inevitable sick Grandmother excuse will be taken with sympathy and without question even though it's also been an inside joke in the industry before they were born.

It's completely impractical to try and run a Business with such an unreliable client base.  I'm only sticking with it ATM because I haven't found anything else I can make a quid from.

 One always had some flakes and bimbos in the game but the number I and shooters I hold in far higher esteem and ability than myself are all complaining of the same thing. I thought it was something I was doing at first but if they blow some of these other highly talented people off.... I can only say what the hell?

I think some of them think they can get away with anything if they bat their eyes and dress like hookers but if anything all that does is piss me off at the insult to my intelligence and the presumption all my thinking is done with the little head rather than the bigger one.

I guess if any vintage engine society wanted to do a recruitment drive of younger guys, I'd be the man for the job. I know marketing, advertising and promotion but more Importantly, I have the contact details of a bunch of hot 18-20 something bikini Models.

You want young guys to come to engine shows? Let me tell you how to get them there in droves...... :0)
Might need some Medicos on stand by for the regular old farts though.

Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: dkmc on January 29, 2020, 09:44:51 AM

Glort....my Man.
I feel your troubles and sympathize with you. I am a fully-semi qualified USA non-certified photography inspector and interpreter.
I invite you, and I implore you to send me samples of the work that troubles you for my complete evaluation and recommendation.
PLEASE, do not hold back, as difficult as it must be. Send any and all renditions of your works that have the least concern or that which you feel is troubling in nature, and I shall DO my best to analyze, disseminate, and fully inspect. Huh....Then work out, and report back to you with my findings. DO not delay, and send them ASAP. Your well being depends on immediate action.
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: Johndoh on January 29, 2020, 11:13:04 PM
https://www.additivemanufacturing.media/articles/foundry-says-robotic-sand-printing-a-game-changer-for-metal-casting
Title: Re: DIY Short block
Post by: glort on January 30, 2020, 08:58:06 AM

Thanks for you kind, generous and highly unselfish offer DK.
I appreciate you putting your expertise to my benefit and they very noble offer of help.  Not everyone would put themselves out like that. I am humbled and appreciative of your outreach of help.

Plus that was bloody funny and brilliantly well written!   :laugh:

When I get home next week, I'll have to send you a link to a few gallery's on my site for your semi unprofessional appraisal.