Lister Engine Forum

How to / DIY => Engines => Topic started by: Ian M on December 23, 2019, 11:05:28 PM

Title: starting petter ph2
Post by: Ian M on December 23, 2019, 11:05:28 PM
Hi all I am new here and have just bought a Thwaites dumper which I am told has a petter ph2 engine, I am so impressed with how well made the engine is, The problem I have is hand starting it, I had a old cement mixer with a single cylinder diesel Lister engine and that always started first or second attempt. The dumper will start very easy with a tow but I have not managed to get it even to think about starting with the handle,as soon as I turn the compression on the engine stops instantly at the next compression, I think I am doing every think I need to, I have moved leaver over to give more fuel, I have primed both pumps and I have diesel up at the injectors and as will start with tow I think all must be good. It will not even restart with the handle if it has being running and still hot, I would like to convert the decompression so I can re-compress one cylinder at a time. where is a good place to find a second decompression leaver?
Has anyone got any other ideas that might help
I think I am going to really enjoy this engine when I can start it, any help ideas would be great
Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: cobbadog on December 24, 2019, 03:15:54 AM
On the Lister engine you can seperate the 2 levers as they are joined together by a short arm. Something I would try is do a full service from engine oil and clean fresh fuel and all new filters as well. May even be worth pulling the injectors and getting them cleaned or run a dose of injector cleaner through the system after you have done the other things I have suggested. My SR2 Lister starts very easily by crank and both levers engaging at the same time.
Let us know how you get on.
Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: glort on December 24, 2019, 03:56:27 AM

Not familiar with the engine at all but valve clearances and injector timing can make a big difference to diesel starting so I'd look at them for sure. valve not quite seating won't make much difference to running but can make a big difference to starting.

As mentioned, spray pattern of the injector is also significant.
Once you had it running I'd also give it a dribble of water down the intake. Might clear out any buildup  that shouldn't be in the engine or the exhaust.  Run the thing at a good speed and slowly trickle some water down the intake. If it bogs, back off a bit. Put a few litres through it and see what comes out and how it responds afterwards.
Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: snowman18 on December 24, 2019, 10:56:03 AM
Engine needs new piston rings, towing to start splashes oil onto the cylinder increasing compression, then as you say the engine will hand start after being towed kinda confirms my suspicions.
Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: cobbadog on December 24, 2019, 11:01:44 AM
You mentioned that it won't start off the crank handle even after it has been running and is warm.

A possibility is you might need to eat more weet bix in the morning,  try cranking it like ou mean it or you crank and have another person to throw the decompression lever over. Worth a try.
Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: Ian M on December 24, 2019, 10:15:50 PM
On the Lister engine you can seperate the 2 levers as they are joined together by a short arm. Something I would try is do a full service from engine oil and clean fresh fuel and all new filters as well. May even be worth pulling the injectors and getting them cleaned or run a dose of injector cleaner through the system after you have done the other things I have suggested. My SR2 Lister starts very easily by crank and both levers engaging at the same time.
Let us know how you get on.
Hi thanks for you response I had planned to give it a service I need to work out what oil to use there seems to be many different ideas should I used the oil that was recommended or are there better newer oils to use? I also need to find a bit of time to play with it and find out what filters I need, I will let you know how it goes
Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: Ian M on December 24, 2019, 10:21:56 PM

Not familiar with the engine at all but valve clearances and injector timing can make a big difference to diesel starting so I'd look at them for sure. valve not quite seating won't make much difference to running but can make a big difference to starting.

As mentioned, spray pattern of the injector is also significant.
Once you had it running I'd also give it a dribble of water down the intake. Might clear out any buildup  that shouldn't be in the engine or the exhaust.  Run the thing at a good speed and slowly trickle some water down the intake. If it bogs, back off a bit. Put a few litres through it and see what comes out and how it responds afterwards.
Hi thanks
The idea of putting water in the air inlet of diesel engine really scares me if I used a spray bottle and sprayed in a mist would that work?
I know very little about this type of engine so am learning new things all the time
Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: Ian M on December 24, 2019, 10:27:54 PM
Engine needs new piston rings, towing to start splashes oil onto the cylinder increasing compression, then as you say the engine will hand start after being towed kinda confirms my suspicions.
It will not start even when hot with handle and seems to have a lot of compression as it is very hard to get it to pass over TDC when the decompression is undecompressed,
Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: Ian M on December 24, 2019, 10:39:26 PM
You mentioned that it won't start off the crank handle even after it has been running and is warm.

A possibility is you might need to eat more weet bix in the morning,  try cranking it like ou mean it or you crank and have another person to throw the decompression lever over. Worth a try.
I have tried and my son as well with the over working the decompression, I am not sure about the crank handle it might be it needs a bigger throw it has been cut and wielded but seems to look about the same size as ones I have seen on line, I think we will give it a service and see if it gets any better
Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: cobbadog on December 25, 2019, 02:11:00 AM
What length is the throw on your handle? Min e would be aound 12" or 300mm and is enough to start easily when both cylinders are bought into play.
Try getting the momentum up by at leat the third turn to llow the inertia of the flywheel to help start and et our son to throw the levers.
I use diesel oil suitable for our Vintage tractors and 1998 Hino truck. From memory it is about a 50 grade oil but I can check if you like. I found a supplier of oils and filters locally to me and I send them the details of what I am after and they then match it. By supplying them a make and model number most of these filters can be cross matched. IF  not take the filter off and accurately measure OD, ID, height and any other description you can think of or take the filters to them and they can then match them for you. Once matched keep[ the details of each filter for future servicing.
Now to the part that I have never done nor at the moment understand how to and that is your injection timing and pump setting. This is something you must have right or it wont start ever. It is like timing a spark on a petrol engine on the exhaust stroke, BANG.
Ouyt of curiousity have you tried a short spray of either down the air intake and did it start off the crank? Not somehthing I recommend as an ongoing thing.
Keep trying different things and ou will win.
Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: Ian M on December 25, 2019, 07:56:38 PM
I would say my handle is about the same size, I have been reading about timing the injection of the fuel and I do not really understand it so will start with a service and see if it gets better, I have tried easy start which does not seem to make any difference, I wander if timing is out and firing too early but it is not kicking back it is just to hard to turn over once the decompression is off, if timing was too late it would be trying to start, which lead me to the idea of starting it on just one cylinder, I could also try each cylinder on its own because of the way they are like two different engines chances are the problem will be with just one of the cylinders
Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: cobbadog on December 26, 2019, 04:34:40 AM
The more we talk about this starting problem the more I am leaning towards fuel, valve or both timing.  It is compression only tht ignites the fuel mix on a diesel so if fuel/air or either were inside you would get some form of interest in it wanting to start  but if fuel spill is out then its a no go. Same as if the engine stop is not opening and no fuel is getting into the cylinder.
Does your engine have a cold start button or lever?
To adjust fuel spill timing you will need a manual for certain or some great advice from someone who does know about these settings.
Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: snowman18 on December 26, 2019, 11:36:35 AM
Petter PH Workshop Manual, link is live for 10 days.

https://tinyurl.com/wcscorf (https://tinyurl.com/wcscorf)
Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: Ian M on December 26, 2019, 11:37:11 AM
I think you might be right, I have found a manual on line which gives details for setting timing but not that easy, I will start with service and look at injector spray pattern first and see how it goes, then move to harder bits
Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: dieselspanner on December 26, 2019, 12:29:25 PM
Hi All

So, thinking it through from your account,

Hot or cold you don't have the 'beef' to turn it over through top dead centre.

With a tow it will run.

First make sure the air inlet is clear, then whip the exhaust off and check that is not blocked either.it won't hurt running without either for a couple of hours whilst you sort it out, should there be any doubt.

As it runs, the valve clearances must be somewhere near, they must be seating for it to run, were they not opening then it would probably not run at all.

The fuel system must also be in the ball park, as above.

You say it stops at the next compression, if it bounces back then the rings and valve sealing are unlikely to be at fault, if it stops with a thud / bang / clang then the problem may well be mechanical. was a piston striking a valve, after a short run the valve would be bent = lack of compression.

If you can slowly get it past TDC, as the compression leaks off then it's not mechanical, on that cylinder at least, continue turning slowly until the second piston reaches TDC on the firing stroke, again if it passes slowly then there is likely no mechanical interference.

If it's possible separate the decompression levers and repeat on each cylinder individually.

At this point assuming there's no nasty bangs etc. I would risk towing it into life.

Assuming it runs and all sounds in order let it warm up for a few minuets.

If it's been hard of starting for the last few years of it's service it's more than likely that it's been started first thing in the morning and left ticking over all day, this, combined with low quality 'red' diesel could well have 'coked' it up. possibly beyond belief!

This could well have increased the compression well past normal levels.

The fast and dirty answer is Glorts, water injection.

Nip indoors and steal the squirty bottle with the blue stuff the Mrs cleans the windows (or the shower, whatever) with, decant blue stuff into suitable container, for later replacement, rinse out and fill with clean tap water.

Once warm the engine is warm get it around half speed half speed and with the air filter removed start spraying it into the inlet manifold. slowly at first, one squeeze every few seconds.

Listen to the engine and watch the exhaust, there will, almost certainly be a lot of black shite coming out, DO NOT get this all over the washing, garden furniture, dog, children or anything else you don't want to the Mrs to moan about.

After a short while increase the rate you are pulling the trigger, it's more than possible you won't be able to pull it fast enough to slow the engine noticeably, if you do slow down a little and let it pick up.

If you imagine the amount of cubic meters of air the motor is inhaling each minuet you'll soon see that the amount of 'mist' you are adding to each compression stroke is minimal.

Repeat until it runs clear, this may well take some time, then drive the dumper about to clear any moisture in the exhaust and give any in the sump a chance to dry out.

Then stop it and see if it will go over TDC, with the Weetabix available!

It may or may not help but it won't do any harm as long as you build the rate of injection up slowly.

Hose the mess down, replace washing on the line, untie the dog, let the kids back into the garden and replace the blue stuff before sneaking the squirty bottle back into the cleaning gear cupboard.

Get beer and celebrate, or get beer and start the strip down.......

Cheers
Stef



Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: Ian M on December 26, 2019, 06:09:33 PM
It will turn through TDC if I turn it very slowly so think it is not a mechanical problem, it also runs okay when tow started, It was getting dark last time I started it and I was getting some small spark like bits coming out of exhaust so that would make sense, also it has being in France some time, they use diesel like fuel as heating oil (red) and most use it in tractors but might not be as clean as normal diesel, or might have came out of old heating oil tank,it also has not been used much in last couple of years and engine really feels like it has too much compression, I will try and get bits for service sorted out then try washing out engine, I will also try and get injectors out and see what they are spraying like, I have been looking a manual and that says for the 2 cylinder engine turn one cylinder at a time over when starting if not linked together so if all  fails will try that thank again for the help I will report back when I have tried these things
Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: dieselspanner on December 26, 2019, 06:57:34 PM
Sounds promising that you can get it past TDC.

If you can split the decompressors you'll stand more of a chance, leave one cylinder decommressed, wind it forward to TDC on the second and ease it over the top. Take a deep breath and give it your best shot over two turns, using the last of your effort to get it 'over the top'.

If it doesn't kick back rinse and repeat 'til it fires and runs.

If it don't, try again using the other cylinder.

If that fails it's out spanners........

The French heating oil lights off better than veg oil but not as well as 'white' diesel from the pump. might be worth running on dino diesel, given how little you'll burn.

Finally, where abouts in France are you? I'm just below the ski resort of La Mongie in the Haute Pyrenees.

Cheers
Stef

 
Title: Re: starting petter ph2 - Stef will strip it down
Post by: sirpedrosa on December 26, 2019, 10:30:40 PM
Ian M and Stef

First forgive me my umble honesty.

Xtmas gone, and I want to wish the very best to you for next year, specially for Ian M to take all efforts to start his PH2.

At first glance I thought Stef's post where a contamination, perhaps geted in a few vacacions days in AU (writing more than 5... 10 lines).

IMMO, that PH2 must be striped down to see his what kind of disease it got. liver, kidneys, bladder, stomach, you name it.........

A PH2 MUST, AND I MEAN IT MUST, be a crank and go. If not strip it down.

Have a nice time.
VP
Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: cobbadog on December 27, 2019, 03:27:30 AM
It is beginning to sound promising and the link to the workshop manual is a must for you to have so hopefully you have this one too.
Glorts initial reply was correct add a bit of water and your reply that can be scarey was correct but it was clarified by Stef the safe way to do that and it is one step I certainly would try especially after that extra information about sparks (hot coke) coming out the exhaust, this is most likely the big issue.
With your fuel system, completely drain every drop out and add some fresh diesel from the fuel bowser of some quality not some fish n chip grade stuff.  If you intend to pull the injectors then pull both and while they are out is a good time to replace all of the fuel in the system and fuel filter as it is easier to turn the engine over with them out then in. The system will bleed quicker and once it is at the injector you will then hopefully see a lovely super fine spray. If this is the case simply wipe them over and replace. Not sure if there is a copper seal under the injectors but check this with the manual. If there is find the old ones as they maybe still down the hole and replace them. If no new ones are available carefully remove them and heat them with a LPG flame and allow them to cool naturally. This will soften or anneal them and help make a good seal again.
Each day I read here there are extra bits of info being put forward to help you out and it is all good and sounds like there maybe big positive progress soon. Keep us informed.
Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: Ian M on December 27, 2019, 07:54:52 PM
Sounds promising that you can get it past TDC.

If you can split the decompressors you'll stand more of a chance, leave one cylinder decommressed, wind it forward to TDC on the second and ease it over the top. Take a deep breath and give it your best shot over two turns, using the last of your effort to get it 'over the top'.

If it doesn't kick back rinse and repeat 'til it fires and runs.

If it don't, try again using the other cylinder.

If that fails it's out spanners........

The French heating oil lights off better than veg oil but not as well as 'white' diesel from the pump. might be worth running on dino diesel, given how little you'll burn.

Finally, where abouts in France are you? I'm just below the ski resort of La Mongie in the Haute Pyrenees.

Cheers
Stef

 
Hi I think I will clean out tank when changing fuel filter and try some good clean white diesel, it could have a mix of all sorts in it,
I am near Agen in the Lot et Garonne so not that far from you
Ian
Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: Ian M on December 27, 2019, 08:24:09 PM
It is beginning to sound promising and the link to the workshop manual is a must for you to have so hopefully you have this one too.
Glorts initial reply was correct add a bit of water and your reply that can be scarey was correct but it was clarified by Stef the safe way to do that and it is one step I certainly would try especially after that extra information about sparks (hot coke) coming out the exhaust, this is most likely the big issue.
With your fuel system, completely drain every drop out and add some fresh diesel from the fuel bowser of some quality not some fish n chip grade stuff.  If you intend to pull the injectors then pull both and while they are out is a good time to replace all of the fuel in the system and fuel filter as it is easier to turn the engine over with them out then in. The system will bleed quicker and once it is at the injector you will then hopefully see a lovely super fine spray. If this is the case simply wipe them over and replace. Not sure if there is a copper seal under the injectors but check this with the manual. If there is find the old ones as they maybe still down the hole and replace them. If no new ones are available carefully remove them and heat them with a LPG flame and allow them to cool naturally. This will soften or anneal them and help make a good seal again.
Each day I read here there are extra bits of info being put forward to help you out and it is all good and sounds like there maybe big positive progress soon. Keep us informed.
Is was the same manual I had found on another place a great help to have as it gives so much information if only the things you bought today had the same and not a slip of paper badly translated from Chinese, but then will any of them be around in fifty years time ? will they still work in 50 weeks?
But back to the engine, I think with all the help I have been given we have come a long way to working out what the problems might be, I thought I know a bit about engines, I had never can across engines being cleaned out with water but looking at the manual the pistons  have a recess in the top of  them, this most likely is full of carbon, which will change the compression and also mess up the flow inside cylinders, I am working this week but hope to find a bit of time to get the filters on order so I can have a go in the new year, I will let you know how I get on
Ian
Title: Re: starting petter ph2
Post by: cobbadog on December 28, 2019, 10:23:48 AM
Sounds nice and positive. Don't work too hard, you will need our strength when you get back to the engine.

Around here, there are many things that were built in China and the instructions which I claim to be almost destructions are as clear s mud. At least my Chinglish is improving at times, if not my swearing certainly does.