Lister Engine Forum

How to / DIY => Everything else => Topic started by: snowman18 on November 09, 2019, 03:23:37 AM

Title: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: snowman18 on November 09, 2019, 03:23:37 AM
This was a small experimental centrifuge that I made to recover precious metals from computer chips, when I started this project knew absolutely nothing of how they worked.

I've used a DC motor with a speed controller the bowl is made from a solid piece of polypropylene which is mounted direct onto the motors shaft.

You can see the gold in the concentrates last image.

My next centrifuge will be used to clean waste cooking oil, I'll be using a spindle from a discarded lawn mower deck but these are cheap enough to purchase new

The tan colored material in the first bowel picture is the precious metals, then when these were extracted copper showed up.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cJgWG17w/small-centrifuge1.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/C1KSrCPM/small-centrifuge2.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/853Qy2fw/small-centrifuge3.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/BvnnRGtG/small-centrifuge4.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/4yVfpf2p/centrifugegold.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/QtsRvt1d/spindle.png)
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: saba on November 09, 2019, 12:29:36 PM
Interesting to follow,

Once I had ideas about trying to use a clothes dryer/spinner. They are out of fashion and you can pick them up for cheap. Should give some G's and they should keep the mess in the enclosure.

regards bernhard
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: glort on November 09, 2019, 02:56:49 PM

The one thing I don't favour with fuges for cleaning oil is they don't dry it.  While many people don't bother drying oil, having run vehicles and engines on it 17 Years this month, I believe it is absolutely essential for trouble free use of veg oil.  Unlike Diesel, Veg is Hygroscopic and dissolved water cannot be settled or spun out.  To dry the oil requires a separate operation that makes settling ( which spinning in a fuge is only accelerated) and then drying just as easy as spinning it up.

I tested my settled and filtered oil in a fuge many years ago. The amount of sediment the fuge got out was basically irrelevant and as the chemist that owned the fuge said, the individual particles were so small they would most likely pass through a filter and certainly a fuel injector so were of no consequence. I use 1 or 5 Um water filters and can put through at least 2500L .  I can put through more but after that much I just change them as a matter of precaution.

Mate and I tried building fuges a couple of times out of an old washing machine and some other bits and pieces and gave up on the idea.  The use of a mower deck spindle is a good one as you need something that is REALLY  strong and something that is very well balanced. If you have built a fuge yourself, that is a credit to you as it's not an easy thing to get right despite how simple they appear. There are a LOT of forces at play in those things.
Our washing machine attempt was going well till it got  a wobble with about 10L of ooil in it and went from spinning smoothly to exploding in every sense of the word in less than a second. I'll bet my mate is still cleaning polermiresed oil off his tools to this day. Also bet that not one single thing that was there in that shed has the slightest hint of corrosion.

I would suggest incorporating a drying mechanism into your fuge design.  I use a bubbling system in a tank that recirculates and can dry and filter 200L of oil in as little as 30 Min.  That's normally in summer, winter may take an hour or 3 depending on if I add heat and the humidity and how long the oil has settled.

Once it comes out the processor I know it's cleaner than pump diesel and every bit as water free.
I would also suggest having your oil dry enough to pass a hot pan test as a minimum before putting it into a fuel tank.
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: snowman18 on November 09, 2019, 06:02:54 PM
glort high speed centrifuges are capable of separating isotopes from gaseous mixtures, this is how they enrich uranium.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_centrifuge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_centrifuge)

How many G forces was your centrifuge producing, where you running cold oil or did you first heat the oil to improve its viscosity, which would encourage the water to drop out.

The deep fryer operates at temperatures well above the point of evaporating water which is evident when a basket of potatoes chips i first submerged into the hot oil.

The sizzle and bubbling only cease once the top layer of the chip has been cauterized sealing the remaining moisture inside.

Oil is lighter than water, increase the speed of your centrifuge and warm the oil before feeding it into the centrifuge the water has no choice other than to be liberated.

Also have you installed a water separator into your engine fuel system.

Bubbling air through your oil is no guarantee your going to end up drying the oil, air itself has a lot of moisture content.

I have a refrigerated air dryer from a retired dentist similar to the one below. Instead of passing air through the chill plate I'll be passing water used from my still condenser.

(https://i.postimg.cc/VLy48XqL/water1.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/LXC7D5wg/dryer.png)



Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: snowman18 on November 10, 2019, 12:43:23 AM
Most modern washing machine motors these days are 3 phase running off an inverter incorporated into an onboard module.

The use of a 3 phase motor eliminates the need for a transmission, the motor receives commands from the inverter module for speed and direction of rotation.

If your neighbor had set a broken washing machine to the curb in all probability it has a faulty inverter, the motor should be salvaged for projects like building a centrifuge.

An inexpensive VFD ( variable frequency drive ) is all that is needed to run that motor and they will spin up to 20,000 rpm. Om the video below Raw Power near the beginning of the video says the bowel is operating at 6,000 rpm.

For a bowel the size of the Raw power centrifuge the manufacture is still within the safe limits. But I would not attempt to pull more G force fro that bowel.

Here's a link to calculate g forces generated re diameter and rpm's applied.
http://www.endmemo.com/bio/grpm.php


VFD powering up a repurposed smart drive motor.
https://youtu.be/yaIUp9ZzjYU

Raw Power Centrifuge
https://youtu.be/yaIUp9ZzjYU
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: glort on November 10, 2019, 12:49:14 AM
glort high speed centrifuges are capable of separating isotopes from gaseous mixtures, this is how they enrich uranium.

Yes, but that's not something you would build yourself or would be able to afford for drying oil.


Quote
How many G forces was your centrifuge producing, where you running cold oil or did you first heat the oil to improve its viscosity, which would encourage the water to drop out.

Our centrifuges produced about z G's before self destructing.   :(  Commercial fuges people have used both the bowl and the jet type do NOT get dissolved water out of oil.  There is a big difference between water droplets and dissolved water.  Dissolved water particles are very small and the molecular weight is too close to water to seperate by non specialised fuges. Not basing this on my experience with them as much as going on other peoples attempts I have been reading for 15 years plus. Some real smart people have taken this on and never had success UNLESS, they invest considerable energy in heating the oil to drive the water off by evaporation.

Quote
The deep fryer operates at temperatures well above the point of evaporating water which is evident when a basket of potatoes chips i first submerged into the hot oil.

Yep, that's what everyone thinks until they they get oil that is wet and learn there are other forces at work. TBH, I forget what they are now, learned and forgot about it a long time ago as it was irrelevant.  The frying process even though it typicaly operates at double the boiling point of water does NOT eliminate all the moisture from the oil.  Yeah, I know it sounds illogical but it's a well known thing in veg circles not something I made up.

Quote
The sizzle and bubbling only cease once the top layer of the chip has been cauterized sealing the remaining moisture inside.

That is not what happens.  The moisture continues to escape through the cells of the food while it is being cooked.  If all the water was eliminated you would have something as dry as a brick.  If the food was sealed, the increasing temperature and steam pressure inside the food would cause it to rupture.

Quote
Oil is lighter than water, increase the speed of your centrifuge and warm the oil before feeding it into the centrifuge the water has no choice other than to be liberated.

Again, this -may- be possible on some specialised industrial Fuge but it's not going to happen on a home made bowl fuge before it explodes.  Again, many smart people around the world have tried it and no one got dry oil that would pass a simple Hot pan test which is the basic standard of dry oil just by spinning alone.

 Not talking about droplets, talking about DISSOLVED water which must be eliminated to prevent a range of problems.

Quote
Also have you installed a water separator into your engine fuel system.
 

Completely and utterly useless against DISSOLVED water.  If one is putting oil wet enough to have drop out in their tank, they are very soon going to be one of these people whom complain Veg does not work and caused them problems when the people who prepare the oil right will do it for years without issue.  The ONLY separator / filter that is effective against dissolved water is the water block type Filters. Forget who makes them now, Racor Maybe? But they are very expensive ( and bulky)  and if you run undried oil through them they will block up fast as is their job.

Quote
Bubbling air through your oil is no guarantee your going to end up drying the oil, air itself has a lot of moisture content.

Maybe no guarantee but if you do it right and check it, definitely works and effective.  Have the vids demonstrating it.  Yes, air does have moisture but unless you are dying on very humid days which a smart person pays attention to and avoids, the humidity in the air is still low enough to dry the dissolved water out of the oil to the required standard.  I have also channelled combustion air from a burner though the processor and that really rips the moisture out.   

Quote
I have a refrigerated air dryer from a retired dentist similar to the one below. Instead of passing air through the chill plate I'll be passing water used from my still condenser.

Refrigeration and vacuum have been  used and are very effective but also very energy intensive. I have seen some setups that pump some serious energy into drying and filtering when it's just no necessary. Comes back to the old thing that many seem to believe that unless something is complicated, expensive, energy intensive and has a lot of built in failure points, it can't possibly work.  If you have the gear and it's not a lot to run, that would work well but again, that's not the fuge alone drying the oil, it's an extra process.

I would strongly suggest you look up what a hot pan test is and when you have spun up your oil, test it and see how much water you have. Unless you are exceptionally lucky, you WILL have water in  any used oil you get. In 17 years I have got oil ONCE that would pass a HPT without drying it.
I would say pretty conservatively I have got over 100K L  in the time I have been playing with veg.

When you get it really dry, you can add 3-4 drops of water to a cup of oil, mix it up and still pass the HTP.
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: glort on November 10, 2019, 01:11:32 AM

An inexpensive VFD ( variable frequency drive ) is all that is needed to run that motor and they will spin up to 20,000 rpm. Om the video below Raw Power near the beginning of the video says the bowel is operating at 6,000 rpm.

For a bowel the size of the Raw power centrifuge the manufacture is still within the safe limits. But I would not attempt to pull more G force fro that bowel.

I would not attempt or advise anyone to try to spin a Motor let alone a bowl that wasn't xrayed and tested to 20K rpm.  No normal motor would stand that without a good chance of it coming apart like a hand grenade at those speeds.
I'd sure as hell not try anything home made at 6000 Rpm either.  I'm no safety sook but there is a point where self preservation kicks in.
It's not just about the integrity of the bowl itself, if it has a Kg or more of oil and crud sitting in it, that just increases the torsional stresses and strains.

Looking at that fuge site was certainly a trip down memory lane. I remember when those things first came out.
Then just like now, While they do a good job, I can still do the same and in some ways better job with a setup costing $150 rather than the better part  of $2k.

Yes, the fuge will get the oil cleaner, don't deny that BUT, it's cleaned to a point where it doesen't matter.  Onboard filters are Typicaly 10 UM. Some rare ones are 7 UM.  I clean my oil with a 1 or a 5 UM filter.  They cost me $8 and have for years. I change them out to be safe so the pumps I use don't collapse them if they do block after I have put 2500L through them.
If you clean your oil to .5 Um with a fuge, it makes no difference.  It's like filling a bucket from another bucket or a water truck.  Once you have your 10L, the rest is just a waste of time and effort.

Typicaly I change my onboard fuel filters every second oil change which is 6 Months.  Even though I get them used, they are still never blocked at that time but again, I do it as a precaution not that I haven't changed a load of them by the side of the road over the years when I was still learning.
I know a lot of people crap on about them lasting a year or more but I really don't care.  It's illogical to spend $1500 to extend the life of a 10 or even $20 fuel filter which you would never come near getting back. Save the investment on a fuge and put it into fuel filters and water filters for the processor and you'll be miles better off.

The other aspect is you WILL get contamination in the tank anyway no matter how clean it and the oil starts out.  The return oil going through the hot injector pump will polymerise, you will get dust and dirt coming in through breathers, chemical and metal reactions, soft hose degradation going into the fuel and so on.
If you are filtering your oil cleaner than comes out the pump to start with, that's enough.

It's also why making sure the oil IS dry is more important rather than cleaning the oil to a pointless degree.
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: snowman18 on November 10, 2019, 02:34:49 AM
glort high speed centrifuges are capable of separating isotopes from gaseous mixtures, this is how they enrich uranium.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_centrifuge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_centrifuge)

 

Yes, but that's not something you would build yourself or would be able to afford for drying oil.


Quote
How many G forces was your centrifuge producing, where you running cold oil or did you first heat the oil to improve its viscosity, which would encourage the water to drop out.

Our centrifuges produced about z G's before self destructing.   :(  Commercial fuges people have used both the bowl and the jet type do NOT get dissolved water out of oil.  There is a big difference between water droplets and dissolved water.  Dissolved water particles are very small and the molecular weight is too close to water to seperate by non specialised fuges. Not basing this on my experience with them as much as going on other peoples attempts I have been reading for 15 years plus. Some real smart people have taken this on and never had success UNLESS, they invest considerable energy in heating the oil to drive the water off by evaporation.

Quote
The deep fryer operates at temperatures well above the point of evaporating water which is evident when a basket of potatoes chips i first submerged into the hot oil.

Yep, that's what everyone thinks until they they get oil that is wet and learn there are other forces at work. TBH, I forget what they are now, learned and forgot about it a long time ago as it was irrelevant.  The frying process even though it typicaly operates at double the boiling point of water does NOT eliminate all the moisture from the oil.  Yeah, I know it sounds illogical but it's a well known thing in veg circles not something I made up.

Quote
The sizzle and bubbling only cease once the top layer of the chip has been cauterized sealing the remaining moisture inside.

That is not what happens.  The moisture continues to escape through the cells of the food while it is being cooked.  If all the water was eliminated you would have something as dry as a brick.  If the food was sealed, the increasing temperature and steam pressure inside the food would cause it to rupture.

Quote
Oil is lighter than water, increase the speed of your centrifuge and warm the oil before feeding it into the centrifuge the water has no choice other than to be liberated.

Again, this -may- be possible on some specialised industrial Fuge but it's not going to happen on a home made bowl fuge before it explodes.  Again, many smart people around the world have tried it and no one got dry oil that would pass a simple Hot pan test which is the basic standard of dry oil just by spinning alone.

 Not talking about droplets, talking about DISSOLVED water which must be eliminated to prevent a range of problems.

Quote
Also have you installed a water separator into your engine fuel system.
 

Completely and utterly useless against DISSOLVED water.  If one is putting oil wet enough to have drop out in their tank, they are very soon going to be one of these people whom complain Veg does not work and caused them problems when the people who prepare the oil right will do it for years without issue.  The ONLY separator / filter that is effective against dissolved water is the water block type Filters. Forget who makes them now, Racor Maybe? But they are very expensive ( and bulky)  and if you run undried oil through them they will block up fast as is their job.

Quote
Bubbling air through your oil is no guarantee your going to end up drying the oil, air itself has a lot of moisture content.

Maybe no guarantee but if you do it right and check it, definitely works and effective.  Have the vids demonstrating it.  Yes, air does have moisture but unless you are dying on very humid days which a smart person pays attention to and avoids, the humidity in the air is still low enough to dry the dissolved water out of the oil to the required standard.  I have also channelled combustion air from a burner though the processor and that really rips the moisture out.   

Quote
I have a refrigerated air dryer from a retired dentist similar to the one below. Instead of passing air through the chill plate I'll be passing water used from my still condenser.

Refrigeration and vacuum have been  used and are very effective but also very energy intensive. I have seen some setups that pump some serious energy into drying and filtering when it's just no necessary. Comes back to the old thing that many seem to believe that unless something is complicated, expensive, energy intensive and has a lot of built in failure points, it can't possibly work.  If you have the gear and it's not a lot to run, that would work well but again, that's not the fuge alone drying the oil, it's an extra process.

I would strongly suggest you look up what a hot pan test is and when you have spun up your oil, test it and see how much water you have. Unless you are exceptionally lucky, you WILL have water in  any used oil you get. In 17 years I have got oil ONCE that would pass a HPT without drying it.
I would say pretty conservatively I have got over 100K L  in the time I have been playing with veg.

When you get it really dry, you can add 3-4 drops of water to a cup of oil, mix it up and still pass the HTP.
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: snowman18 on November 10, 2019, 04:59:29 AM
glort I"m doubtful bubbling air through WVO is going to remove the moisture, then on the other hand I agree with you on that the centrifuge will not removed any moisture which has become emulsified into the oil.

A very long time ago I used to collect waste engine oil that I sold to a refinery to use as feed stock, from each tank load I brought in a lab technician would grab a sample.

A measured amount from the sample was heated in a flask with the moisture re-condensed into a graduated column. From this they were able to calculate the percentage of water in my load.

The refinery deducted that percentage of water from the payout.

I have since done a bit of research regarding the ph of waste cooking oil, here is what I have learned.

The pH of neat vegetable oil varied between 7.38 and 8.63 and of WCO between 5.13 and 6.61

The used oil is acidic, water is one of the worlds best solvents.

I'm going to set up an experiment over the next couple of days and I'm hoping that my video camera will catch and show the results.

The experiment using a liter of waste cooking oil placed into a glass beaker, two stainless steel plates submerged into the oil with a small DC current passed through the oil.

What I'm expecting or hoping to see on camera is off gassing ( bubbles ) as the moisture molecules are being turned into its two components hydrogen and oxygen via electrolysis.

If I'm not able to visually see any off gassing, I'll tape a plastic bag over the top of the beaker to catch the gas's - just keep open flames at bay.


Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: snowman18 on November 10, 2019, 06:01:06 AM
glort shortly after plugging in the power supply when a shine a light into the dark colored oil I can see bubbles coming off the electrodes.

The oil is cold and fairly thick hopefully the bag tapped over the top of the gallon jar has a story to tell us in the morning.

I'm using titanium electrodes but stainless steel strips will work just as sell for this purpose. The power supply came from an old ATM but you can use an old PC power supply, some you have to bride a couple of wires to get them to power up.

I'll run this experiment one more time, do a hot plate sizzle test before and after.

In the meantime we wait for the results.

(https://i.postimg.cc/rpqDkx2v/oil.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/dVdcsxjf/psu-test-jumper.jpg)
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: snowman18 on November 10, 2019, 06:07:11 AM
From another unrelated experiment that resulted in some neat nickle crystals electroplated onto a stainless steel sheet.

(https://i.postimg.cc/90NqJM4r/cr2.jpg)

Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: mike90045 on November 10, 2019, 06:29:48 AM
Collecting the gas with a bag & rubber band, you have a perfect explosive mix of H & O2  The tiniest spark and your bag will vanish with a loud BOOM.
 (gas mix also known as Browns Gas, for the mark it leaves in your underwear)
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: snowman18 on November 10, 2019, 07:14:27 AM
Collecting the gas with a bag & rubber band, you have a perfect explosive mix of H & O2  The tiniest spark and your bag will vanish with a loud BOOM.
 (gas mix also known as Browns Gas, for the mark it leaves in your underwear)

Isn't chemistry great,

The gas is trapped in the oil, it has turned cloudy.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4y0L9pgd/cloudy.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/435qL7Gf/oil2.png)
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: glort on November 10, 2019, 09:26:22 AM

The pH of neat vegetable oil varied between 7.38 and 8.63 and of WCO between 5.13 and 6.61

Pure oil cannot have a PH because only water can.  That is one reason to dry the oil, to remove any acidity or alkalinity.
I have not found new oil to have moisture a Hot pan test can detect so I don't know where this information came from or how it was deduced unless they are talking some microscopic amount of water that would be far below the threshold of any concern for engine fuel use.

I have found a combination of heat and Bubbling work best for drying oil. Sometimes I add heat with a burner, mainly in winter and when it's not so cold I let the heat from the circ pump which gets imparted to the oil do the job. As long as you have the oil warmer than the ambient air the process works quite efficiently.

I am extremely cautious about boiling oil. Again there are principals at work I do not understand but are well aware of their presence.
I have a couple of times seen eruptions in oil that was being heated to dry it and had  one particular near miss that motivated me never to do that again.
I believe what happened was the water coalesced in the bottom of the drum which was being heated over a fire. I also believe the weight on the water from the oil above pressurised the oil slightly but enough to raise it's boiling point. The temps and pressures involved go against my understanding of science but a first hand demonstration of the effect makes that quite irrelevant. When the water went past that boiling point, it flashed to steam  which is about a 1000X expansion and sent a Column of oil straight up.  I would guess about 150L out of that 200L drum was outside the drum at the peak of the eruption and I was within 2 ft of it sitting there watching the fire up till that point, very relaxed. 

Very luckily for me the great majority of the oil which was smoking hot so about 200oC went straight back down into the drum and I got minimally splashed. The bottom of the drum was severely distorted  from the eruption and the frame it was sitting on exerted enough of a thump down into the  concrete it was sitting on for my wife to come up and ask what I had done to make the house shake that was 25M away.  Not an experience I'll ever forget nor wish to repeat except in a clear acre with me a good 30M away.

This was not the first time I had seen this, happened numerous times when drying oil for Bio production with a friend but it certainly was the most powerful and shorts filling example of the action.  I have dried VERY little oil like that since and won't use larger than a 25L Drum with constant stirring.

Boiling oil is a very poor way to dry it efficiency wise but not really a factor when you have loads of crappy oil you don't want to put through the vehicle or a ton of Kindly donated but incorrect to use engine oil.  It's also not something you can set up and walk away from like you can my normal processor.

This is a dodgy Vid I did some time ago on my processor which filters and dries the oil at the same time. Been using this setup a long time now and while I am always keen to find a better mousetrap, especially when someone else has done the hard yards and worked it out but so far, I have not been able to find one that is near as simple or cost effective.

ATM I am building a scaled up version from a 1000L IBC tank for a local company that runs a fleet of trucks and machinery.  I will be putting in an electric heater and thermostat to take the oil to about 40oC  to help drive off the moisture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQL5ff9ICUs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQL5ff9ICUs)
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: snowman18 on November 10, 2019, 03:56:04 PM

The pH of neat vegetable oil varied between 7.38 and 8.63 and of WCO between 5.13 and 6.61

Pure oil cannot have a PH because only water can.  That is one reason to dry the oil, to remove any acidity or alkalinity.
I have not found new oil to have moisture a Hot pan test can detect so I don't know where this information came from or how it was deduced unless they are talking some microscopic amount of water that would be far below the threshold of any concern for engine fuel use.

I have found a combination of heat and Bubbling work best for drying oil. Sometimes I add heat with a burner, mainly in winter and when it's not so cold I let the heat from the circ pump which gets imparted to the oil do the job. As long as you have the oil warmer than the ambient air the process works quite efficiently.

I am extremely cautious about boiling oil. Again there are principals at work I do not understand but are well aware of their presence.
I have a couple of times seen eruptions in oil that was being heated to dry it and had  one particular near miss that motivated me never to do that again.
I believe what happened was the water coalesced in the bottom of the drum which was being heated over a fire. I also believe the weight on the water from the oil above pressurised the oil slightly but enough to raise it's boiling point. The temps and pressures involved go against my understanding of science but a first hand demonstration of the effect makes that quite irrelevant. When the water went past that boiling point, it flashed to steam  which is about a 1000X expansion and sent a Column of oil straight up.  I would guess about 150L out of that 200L drum was outside the drum at the peak of the eruption and I was within 2 ft of it sitting there watching the fire up till that point, very relaxed. 

Very luckily for me the great majority of the oil which was smoking hot so about 200oC went straight back down into the drum and I got minimally splashed. The bottom of the drum was severely distorted  from the eruption and the frame it was sitting on exerted enough of a thump down into the  concrete it was sitting on for my wife to come up and ask what I had done to make the house shake that was 25M away.  Not an experience I'll ever forget nor wish to repeat except in a clear acre with me a good 30M away.

This was not the first time I had seen this, happened numerous times when drying oil for Bio production with a friend but it certainly was the most powerful and shorts filling example of the action.  I have dried VERY little oil like that since and won't use larger than a 25L Drum with constant stirring.

Boiling oil is a very poor way to dry it efficiency wise but not really a factor when you have loads of crappy oil you don't want to put through the vehicle or a ton of Kindly donated but incorrect to use engine oil.  It's also not something you can set up and walk away from like you can my normal processor.

This is a dodgy Vid I did some time ago on my processor which filters and dries the oil at the same time. Been using this setup a long time now and while I am always keen to find a better mousetrap, especially when someone else has done the hard yards and worked it out but so far, I have not been able to find one that is near as simple or cost effective.

ATM I am building a scaled up version from a 1000L IBC tank for a local company that runs a fleet of trucks and machinery.  I will be putting in an electric heater and thermostat to take the oil to about 40oC  to help drive off the moisture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQL5ff9ICUs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQL5ff9ICUs)

glort you disappoint me with this statement,

Pure oil cannot have a PH because only water can

The fact that used cooking oil becomes acidic was all I needed to know that the combination of oil and emulsified moisture would conduct a dc current.

The dc current liberates the emulsified moisture as hydrogen and oxygen which I have this far proven with the used oil used for the experiment having changed to a cloudy mixture.

The oil from the experiment is now infused with gas bubbles of hydrogen and oxygen, the oil is sitting on my shop in sub freezing temperatures outdoors.

The cold oil has trapped the microscopic gas bubbles which is causing the oil to be cloudy.

Hang in there glort we're going to learn something new here.

The information on ph was a quote from this article.

Viscosity Characteristics of Waste Cooking Oil with Ultrasonic Energy Irradiation
https://www.e-sciencecentral.org/articles/SC000015241 (https://www.e-sciencecentral.org/articles/SC000015241)

(https://i.postimg.cc/TPykM0BP/acidbase.gif)
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: snowman18 on November 10, 2019, 06:01:50 PM
Observation, the oil used for this experiment contained enough moisture to form gas bubbles when a DC current was passed through the oil.

After about an hour it was observed that the infusion of gas bubbles had caused the oil to become cloudy. The bubbles had dispersed overnight and the oil was once again amber in color.

The hot pan test showed the test oil to be free of moisture.

Oil from the 16 liter jug is the first to be deposited into the hot pan which shows it to be free of moisture the second drop is from the test oil.

Electrolysis showed evidence of moisture as the infusion of minute gas bubbles had turned the oil cloudy. The standing overnight the gas had a chance to rise once the gas had dispersed from the oil  the cloudiness disappeared.

The experiment was based on the electrolysis of water to make hydrogen gas as a fuel, the Ph of the oil told me that it would conduct a DC current and it was my theory the DC current would break the moisture bonds into their respective gas's.

I encourage others to duplicate this experiment then report your observations.

A short video of the hot pan test.

https://youtu.be/mSsCgfQDPYg

Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: snowman18 on November 10, 2019, 06:12:20 PM
Most of us are aware of the explosive nature of hydrogen gas, in the chrome plating industry it's a well known fact that hydrogen will cause metals to become brittle.

Hydrogen has an affinity for metals, be aware of this fact when choosing a vessel to work with a procedure that will generate hydrogen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

Description
Hydrogen embrittlement also known as hydrogen assisted cracking and hydrogen-induced cracking, describes the embrittling of metal after being exposed to hydrogen. It is a complex process that is not completely understood because of the variety and complexity of mechanisms that can lead to embrittlement
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: glort on November 10, 2019, 11:07:21 PM

Hang in there glort we're going to learn something new here. 

Yes, we are apparently.


https://www.thoughtco.com/the-ph-of-vegetable-oil-608887
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: snowman18 on November 11, 2019, 02:55:18 AM

Hang in there glort we're going to learn something new here. 

Yes, we are apparently.


https://www.thoughtco.com/the-ph-of-vegetable-oil-608887

+1 but no cigar, water moisture in waste cooking oil donates the H atom to give a notable ph, depending on which foods were cooked in the oil will determine of the Ph is alkali or acidic

Fortunately both will conduct an electrical current, I do not have ph strips so the test oil was from the fryer so to speak to the test jar.

You did mention earlier that vegetable oil was hydroscopic and I have since read material that supports your claim.

So it would be safe to assume freshly processed cooking oil could pick up traces of moisture from humidity in the air.

From the oil used for this experiment neither the oil from the 16 liter jug or the test batch showed evidence of moisture on the hot pan test.

As I mentioned earlier the test batch turned cloudy, for what its worth I'm going to run this experiment again.

Only this time I'm going to add 1/4 cup of water then thoroughly mix it onto the oil then at the end of the test do the hot pan test.

Personally I think I've stumbled onto an economic method of drying waste vegetable oil

Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: snowman18 on November 11, 2019, 04:00:51 AM
I've added 400 ml of water, 10:00 pm Sunday evening.

(https://i.postimg.cc/PfcyBKHS/water.jpg)
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: glort on November 11, 2019, 04:12:06 AM

I did say Pure vegetable oil as in not used or contaminated, has no PH.  Used oil and oil containing water is different as it is the water not the oil that has a Ph value and why the water needs to be eliminated.  In any case it is not the PH of the water in the oil that causes the problems. If one wanted to get pedantic, one would probably be better ( again in a largely useless way) to pay attention to the TITRATION of the oil rather than the PH.
Titration is a far better indicator of the quality of the oil than PH.

That said I have run oil of very high titration that made it virtually useless for Bio feedstock and it was the same in practice as low Titrating oil. If one was fussy about the level of Titration , the question would be where do you set the benchmark for what is acceptable and what is not?
In all the years I have been playing with oil I have never seen mention of any problems caused by high titration oil  so again, concerning oneself with that would be of no benefit or value.

Any oil that passes a HPT does not need further drying. Like spinning or filtering oil to .5 Um, drying the oil beyond what will pass a HPT is of no benefit.
Oil which is drier than will indicate on a HPT will only pick up atmospheric moisture very quickly from the fuel tank so serves no purpose and is a waste of time and energy.

Many people over the years have gone overboard on preparing oil but other than to just spend more money and waste time and resources, there is no benefit or associated guarantee of elimination of problems in the future by going overboard. once the standard is reached, there is no point going any further because the returns are not there.

It's only engine fuel not blood for a transfusion.  :0)

Another useless fallacy with using veg in mechanical pumps is heating it.
The folklore and parroted flawed mantra goes you should heat the oil to reduce the viscosity to go through the pump and spray from the injector Correctly.  Again, an ill thought out but almost universally spread load of rubbish.  You only need the oil warm enough to melt any condensed fats so they do not block the fuel filter. after that, Makes no difference at all. Inline and rotary pumps will handle and are specified to handle much higher viscosities than you could get oil to flow down a fuel line in the first place.

As far as Injectors go, to suggest that heating the miniscule amount of oil in the injector lines and injectors is going to have any influence on the temp it sprays through the injector which is in good contact with a lump of metal with a 100KG thermal mass in a vehicle is going to change the temprature of which that oil injects is pure fantasy.

You will see endless and length discussions on the value of heating oil on any forum though.  Inevitably all from people who just followed what the guy before them did who followed the guy before him who did it the same as the guy..... and not one of this procession of people have even thought the concept through much less tried to perform any sort of tests or calculations.

Again, as long as the oil is warm enough so as any fats which may drop out do not condense on the filter and block it ( of which there should be no fats if the oil was prepped properly) then any other heating of the oil with mechanical pumps is just added expense and complication that has far more negative results than the non existent benefits.
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: glort on November 11, 2019, 04:22:17 AM
I've added 400 ml of water, 10:00 pm Sunday evening.

That is a LOT of water to add to that amount of oil.
That much water would settle out in time and the majority would be on the bottom of the drum it was in. The dissolved water content will still be high in the oil that will sit above the water and rubbish layer but there is no way that after an appropriate settling period that much water will stay dissolved in the oil.

Are you trying to see how long it will take to get the water out?  If so, I'd say your test is unrealistic for the reasons above.  Standard practice with veg is to settle the oil out ( I like a min of 6 Months myself) which drops the free water and the great majority of the contaminants. You then pump the clean oil off the top of the drum or tank and process that.

You to me are " sabotaging" your test and making it overly difficult and impractical.  I would settle the oil at least a week, heating it to about 20oC over ambient will speed the process of the free water dropping out and then test  the oil that will sit on top of the water that will b on the bottom with other particles which will fall out of suspension.

I think this would give you a much more real world test and results rather than what you are doing now which is making it overly difficult for your method to succeed and possibly giving negative outcomes to what may prove to be a new and beneficial method of drying.
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: snowman18 on November 11, 2019, 05:44:26 AM
I've added 400 ml of water, 10:00 pm Sunday evening.

That is a LOT of water to add to that amount of oil.
That much water would settle out in time and the majority would be on the bottom of the drum it was in. The dissolved water content will still be high in the oil that will sit above the water and rubbish layer but there is no way that after an appropriate settling period that much water will stay dissolved in the oil.

Are you trying to see how long it will take to get the water out?  If so, I'd say your test is unrealistic for the reasons above.  Standard practice with veg is to settle the oil out ( I like a min of 6 Months myself) which drops the free water and the great majority of the contaminants. You then pump the clean oil off the top of the drum or tank and process that.

You to me are " sabotaging" your test and making it overly difficult and impractical.  I would settle the oil at least a week, heating it to about 20oC over ambient will speed the process of the free water dropping out and then test  the oil that will sit on top of the water that will b on the bottom with other particles which will fall out of suspension.

I think this would give you a much more real world test and results rather than what you are doing now which is making it overly difficult for your method to succeed and possibly giving negative outcomes to what may prove to be a new and beneficial method of drying.

I never expected that the whole 400 ml of water would stay with the oil, after an hour and a half there is now a layer of separation.

I've upgraded the DC power supply to 12 Volts DC at 30 amps, I will make a daily report on this experiment for one week.

My shop at the moment is not heated and it's freezing outside. Warming the oil wouldn't hurt but going do do this with out.

With the oil being cold and thick I'll give it a stir once a day to help disperse the bubbles, if any appear.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Xv5pP5Rh/layer.jpg)
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: snowman18 on November 12, 2019, 01:45:53 AM
To cold in the shop, I've terminated the experiment.
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: glort on November 12, 2019, 03:16:13 AM
Too Cold?

You were pumping 30A @ 12V into that 4? litre jar.
That is  30x 12=  360W. I would have thought that would be plenty to heat the solution to a workable room temperature.
Of course extrapolating that electrical input, we have 360W x 24 Hrs = 8.64Kwh a day, x7 = 60.48 Kwh week.

That's a shit load of power to dry a few litres of oil!
Even if it only takes half the time to dry it, still an over the top amount of power to dry even 100X that amount of oil.

Water pump I used on my dryer was 400W and even in cold humid conditions I could dry 200L of oil in 3 hours and that was worst case scenario. Average was more like one hour.

Perhaps this setup will not be the breakthrough I hoped for.
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: snowman18 on November 12, 2019, 06:47:38 AM
In part because of the cold, and the water no longer had the propertys required to carry a current, could have added a small amount of table salt to encourage the flow of current.

I made the mistake of using the same oil for the second experiment, I figure the salts and nitrates from the foods cooked in the was electrically changed. If I had PH test strips on hand I could verify if any changes that may have taken place.

Electrolysis of salt water produces chlorine gas and hydrogen along with caustic soda all of which would have damaged my titanium electrodes.

In the near future I plan to plantinise the surfaces of these titanium electrodes to use in other electro chemistry projects.

In this tube video he as added baking soda to make the water conductive, which in my opinion would not adulterate the oil for our use.

Baking soda is basic, ph 7 is neutral number below that are acidic and above are basic. I figure if you added in and dissolved enough baking soda to bring the ph to around 8 your in the money for drying your waste oil.

The procedure shown in the video is producing oxygen and hydrogen


https://youtu.be/HQ9Fhd7P_HA
 (https://youtu.be/HQ9Fhd7P_HA)


Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: snowman18 on November 12, 2019, 06:51:17 AM
Now this looks like an interesting read then off to do some research on patent numbers.

 Catalyst frees hydrogen from seawater

New solar-powered electrolysis system avoids briny bugbears like chlorine production

by Mark Peplow
March 30, 2018

https://cen.acs.org/energy/hydrogen-power/Catalyst-frees-hydrogen-seawater/96/web/2018/03 (https://cen.acs.org/energy/hydrogen-power/Catalyst-frees-hydrogen-seawater/96/web/2018/03)
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: glort on November 12, 2019, 09:36:31 AM

In the veg heyday and for a while thereafter, a variety of additives were used to dry oil.

Salt, talcum powder, baking soda, dimatious ( sp?) earth and later even cement was added to remove the water and help settle out particles.
A proprietary product called magnesite was also developed for the job.  Given the cost, most people used this as a finishing treatment to ensure all water was removed after more conventional methods were used. Another example of going overboard for no benefit.

Always seemed counter productive to myself and the fellow greasers I was friends with to add what was in effect a contaminant  to the oil which meant more  material to remove and waste to dispose of. The fact that all these products could be potentially very damaging to the fuel system if not completely removed was another significant factor.  One guy who claimed to be the inventor of the concrete method had some truly laughable failures and stuff ups with that idea but wasn't easily put off although he did give the idea away in time for an "Improvement" to his process which involved adding acid from memory.  That guy sure did cost himself some money in ruined equipment and Injector pump repairs!


Never had any trouble drying  and filtering my oil the way I did it and neither did the many people who built themselves similar processors from the design.

I think one really needs to have the goals and objectives of what they want to do clear in their heads.
For me it was to make the process of getting my oil clean and dried tot he required standards as hands off as possible, to have a cheap and easy to build processor that was dirty oil in, clean oil out and never shall it see the light of day in between using the most basic parts and to do it for the smallest practical energy investment or running cost.

I have been very happy what I came up with achieved that. It could have been more hands off, I could have pumped the oil into the processor instead of hand loading it.  I did it by hand for the exercise. I could have put an electric heating element in the tank  but I opted to use an oil burner or just let the pump warm the oil.  I could have done what a mate did and set his up on an industrial controller that would automatically load itself, process and then pump out the clean oil and reload itself for 4 cycles which was the capacity of his holding tank.

Seemed amazing but as he pointed out, an average washing machine did just as much or more which was where he ot the idea from.
I was happy to have a level of hands on as I enjoy playing with and learning from doing it as well as a bit of well needed exercise.

I used to set the processor up under a covered pergola at the side of the house. I'd do a run of up to 2000L over a weekend. I laugh now when I think about the exercise of carrying 2000L of oil  from one side of the yard where I had the settling tanks, back to the other side and down a bit and then back to theclean oil holding tanks back besides the dirty ones.  Used to do it  carrying 2x 25L drums at a time.  No wonder I was so much fitter then! :0)
I wasn't completely nuts. I did start out pumping it but as I only did batches about every 6 months, whenever I put the hose away, rats would get to it and chew holes in it and I'd have to buy another 50M which wasn't cheap especialy for the one use.  That's whay I gave up on pumping and just carried the oil back and forth.

Time I was finished processing, there was oil everywhere.  Never worried about it. Put everything away and then cleaned  the driveway down with caustic.  Mrs only complaint was when I was done the concrete came up so clean it made the rest look dirty so she asked If I could move up and down the driveway  so it all looked new.  :0)
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: veggie on November 18, 2019, 02:34:43 PM
I thought the knowledge of water separation was generally understood after all of us "pioneers" tried multiple solutions, sometimes with very messy results.
Like when a hose broke on one of my VO cleaning experiments (pump still running of course) while I was away from the garage for 20 minutes. VO covered the whole floor.
Lesson learned.... no more barbed fitting with hose clamps on the pressure side of a system ! Threaded connection only.
We all have our stories as we earned our right of passage.  ;D
I digress...
With the advent of the high "G" centrifuges and heat applied to the oil on the way into the centrifuge, water is pretty much eliminated and the output from the machine is clean dry oil.
Steam exiting the vent of the centrifuge is the exit point for water. And multiple passes through the centrifuge make it even better.
If you have the space for multiple vessels, settling is super simple and effective too, but takes way to long for me and I don't have the space to keep multiple 200 liter drums or 1000 liter IBC totes in my yard.
Small batches through a heated centrifuge is fast and clean.

Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: glort on November 19, 2019, 02:39:45 AM
Steam exiting the vent of the centrifuge is the exit point for water.

In this scenario, the fuge is not eliminating the water, the added heat, presumably near the boiling point of water is. That is a lot of energy for even a 200L batch and if you are heating it electrically, a fairly slow and expensive process.

On a 20oC day at around 60% Humidity, I can dry and filter a 200L batch of oil in 30 min with well under .5 Kwh of power used with the bubbling/ pumping method.


Quote
Small batches through a heated centrifuge is fast and clean.

Spose that depends on what one considers a " Small batch" and what one considers fast.  200L in 30 Min is fast and clean to me and also cheap with the amount of energy I put ( or don't) put into it.

There is no doubting the cleanliness of spun oil but my reluctance to use a fuge has always been the initial cost of the equipment and the inability of a fuge ( on it's own) to dry the oil.  I have  tried them and set them up for friends but the results were never that different of better that what my filtering method was  and certainly did not justify the significant cost.

As said, to dry oil with a fuge requires a separate process which is usually electric the way I have seen fudges set up so is an added energy investment.
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: EdDee on November 19, 2019, 08:52:11 AM
Hey guys,

My less than 1c's worth....

I cold fuge my oils, granted they're WMO, slightly thinned with waste mineral turps, mainly fuge'ing to remove solids and water. The turps originates from a chainsaw wash bay, full of sand, metal filings, water, dust and goodness knows what. The WMO is from various backyard sources, mystery oil, gearbox, sump, diff, grease, dead kittens and puppies included.... This oil goes mostly to my burners these days, but I wouldn't hesitate to run it through the listers in an emergency...

Home made Hi-G fuge, single pass, low flow rate (its a tiny little fuge with the cup being less than 100dia and 100high...

The oils, on exit, are cold, the housing of the fuge barely warm... The air pressure in the fuge is slightly below atmospheric... During spinning of very wet oils and waterlogged diesel, I set the feed flow rate to just borderline water vapour expulsion.... This is not hot steam, but cold mist that emanates - I have some theories as to why, but no substantiated proof as such. At this flow rate, the spun product leaves the unit with little to no water content. But, it is a slow process... My targets for fuel production are but 3 to 4times my consumption... Meaning that I have a scaled down micro version that outputs about 10-20L per hour, depending on contaminant levels... (This is sludge we're talking about here...)

On polishing diesel or other liquids without heavy contamination, I could up the throughput substantially, as I have done in the past.... (Less than a 1% water/contamination level by volume)... The output product is significantly cleaner than store bought fresh diesel when viewed under a microscope.

As to energy usage - 100 to 150W, a little more when the scavenge pump kicks in, easily supplied by a small inverter/toy solar setup during daytime, load on a genset for night operation during emergency is more than tolerable as I use a VFD to control the fuge with soft start/stop... So, after a whole lot of rambling, NO, its not "heated steam" but a cold mist, keep the g's high enough and the flow within the limits of the cup, and you don't need to heat the input product either..... Well, not me, anyway.... But then I do everything arse backwards.... LOL....

Cheerz
Ed
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: veggie on November 19, 2019, 02:31:21 PM
 
Quote

In this scenario, the fuge is not eliminating the water, the added heat, presumably near the boiling point of water is. That is a lot of energy for even a 200L batch and if you are heating it electrically, a fairly slow and expensive process.

On a 20oC day at around 60% Humidity, I can dry and filter a 200L batch of oil in 30 min with well under .5 Kwh of power used with the bubbling/ pumping method.

Yes, the fuge is eliminating water. When you spin warm oil at 5000 g's at a very low flow rate (high retention time) the portion with the heavier specific gravity (water) is separated and pinned against the back ball of the centrifuge drum along with fats and particles. The clean oil continues on.

Define slow and expensive. My system draws 2.5 kw when running. For an 8 hour batch that's 20kw worth of power.
At $0.08 per kwh that amounts to $1.60 per batch of 80 gallons (300 liters).

Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: glort on November 19, 2019, 03:27:16 PM

20Kwh, 8 hours, 300L??  Yep, nothing has changed.  Still energy intensive, slow and expensive.
Spose as long as we are happy with what we prefer, that's all that matters.
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: veggie on November 19, 2019, 04:14:55 PM

20Kwh, 8 hours, 300L??  Yep, nothing has changed.  Still energy intensive, slow and expensive.
Spose as long as we are happy with what we prefer, that's all that matters.

Hey Glort,
I suppose if you consider $0.0053 per liter expensive then you would be correct.
($1.60 per 300 liters)

You tried various methods and prefer settling. I tried various methods and settled on Spinning.
Everyone has their own set of circumstances and constraints. Mine are very limited space and limited batch sizes.
As long as it works, it really does not matter what system a person uses.

cheers mate  ;)

Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: glort on November 19, 2019, 08:56:06 PM

I suppose if you consider $0.0053 per liter expensive then you would be correct.
($1.60 per 300 liters)

No, I don't consider the power cost expensive even though it would be  3 times greater here, just very energy intensive and wasteful.  Spose it matters less now with people having solar but it was a big thing back in the heyday of veg.
What I was meaning with expensive is the initial purchase setup cost.  I see to buy a bowl type fuge is over $1600US atm. even the questionable little jet types arent cheap either...Not that they ever were and were made just down the road form me years ago.


Quote
As long as it works, it really does not matter what system a person uses.

Yep, pretty much what I said.
Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: veggie on November 20, 2019, 07:50:45 PM
Yes. The price is steep for the centrifuge setup. I have a few buddies who bought them.
In my case I just bought the machined/balanced bowl and built the rest from scrounged metal.

I wonder how much longer WVO will be avialable in my area. 2 new companies have opened which set up free waste removal for restaurants. There we already several in operation. They process the VO on a large scale. Cleaning it for some use. I don't think it's for biodiesel because it's not economically feasible here. One by one restaurants are accepting their collection bin for waste oil dumping. Small VO collectors are running out of supply.
These companies even pick up from private users. One of my friends had too much to process. He called them and they drove over with a vacuum truck and sucked WVO from two 1000 ltr IBC totes that he had.

Since the drop in Biodiesel interest there has not been much competition to get WVO. But with these new commercial processors, the remaining few home brewers are having trouble getting feedstock.


Title: Re: Centrifuges Really Work
Post by: glort on November 20, 2019, 09:06:45 PM

Seems people in some places have always had trouble getting oil and for others it's plentiful.  Nothing new at all. In the veg heyday people were always complaining they couldn't get it but some of the approaches they used were pretty self explanatory why. The other thing is supply and these collection companies seem to come and go.  Universally and world wide, they are always a bunch of immoral cowboys that make up their own rules and do what suits them.

Here some years back when they were after it for bio they went round threatening a lot of people using false EPA rules to get them to come on board and others they offered to pay.  NO one ever got paid a cent and they didn't even collect for long before the price went down and they didn't bother collecting any more. This wasn't a small new company, this was some major waste companies still going today.

Oil was hard to get here but it took literally months for these twerps to burn a LOT of restaurateurs whom were then begging for someone to take the stuff away.  It is no exaggeration to say I would go to some place to pick up and have two more owners coming out and asking if I would take their oil too. I doubled my collection setup from 2 to 400L and used to go out with a mate in his ute and collect 1000L in 2 Hours or less.  One place had rows of drums and we used to pull up there and collect 1000L a week. That was a small shopping centre that had more restaurants than anything else. Geez they went through some oil in that place.  That was the year I picked up 14,000L for my mate to make Bio with and for me to use as oil. I had 5000l+ in stock in the yard and a small shed full of oil.  People that travelled on oil were always dropping in for a top up and I was like the WVO fuel station.

One of my best supplies was my brother in law whom worked for a waste company. They got a contract to take the used cooking oil off the cruise ships when they came in along with the rest of their rubbish.  Each ship would have 2-4 IBC's full of Oil and it was bloody good, clean oil. Best I ever got!
I'd go to his work with my trailer, he'd fork in a IBC and I was on my way.  Sometimes i'd go home, pump it into my tanks and go back and get another.
I could also drop one off to a mate, collect the empty and take that back and pick up a full one. There was always at least one waiting for me.
No running round to various places pumping it, just loaded in an they must have cooked something ones and then changed the oil. It was like new and had very little moisture or particles so was a cinch to process. I sure miss that stuff!

Oil is still plentiful here. Generally it's put in open top 200L drums and I have a pump I made years ago I suck it out with into another 200L drum.
Some companies have various styles of tanks but they are no problem.
I doubt whether these new companies will survive. Seems to me that they come along, they make supply much more available which drives the price down and then they go out of business. Oil is used for a number of things, industrial lubricant, animal food or additive, used in some paints, sealants and rust preventative products and so on.  I know of a couple of companies that use it for firing burners or Boilers for making cement and industrial heating. A large Potato chip company here burn their oil oil to cook the chips and rotate it that way.

The key as it has always been is to make alliances with the restaurants to get supplies.  To them it is a waste product which is a liability and they want gone.  If the stuff is there I collect it. Of course the do gooder purists have always had a sook about that.  If came and took stuff out of their trash, particularly if it was over full or from their street cleanup, would they whine about that? Well, some probably would because the are never happy but as my restaurateur friend laughed, It's waste, we just want it gone, same as we want the rest of the rubbish gone and don't care who takes it as long as it disappears.

In the end I think oil supply is largely what one makes it.  You can have plenty or none depending how much you really want it.