Lister Engine Forum

Slow Speed Diesel Engines => Changfa Engines => Topic started by: saba on October 18, 2019, 02:22:34 AM

Title: Yanmar chp
Post by: saba on October 18, 2019, 02:22:34 AM
By luck I have some time on my hands, I like to replace my 6-1 start o matic chp thats giving to much vibrations to use it indoors for one based on a yanmar TS 105.

Yanmar I bought I while ago as a genset 5 kw, to start with a good base I opened it for a quick peek inside. Turned out piston ran a bit hot, liner just needed some honing. To start off "new"I ordered new piston and liner with some gaskets from sunity taiwan. I think the set has nearly no running hours just lack of cooling water.

I scored a silent box for a small marine generator, brand new still in plastic, it should just fit snuck inside the box.

I like the lister 10 times better but it's like having a horse like a pet in your house, the yanmar more being like a hamster.

I'll try to post progress reports, it will not go fast due to more important stuff eating time.

I was pretty far with automation on the lister, arduino current measuring temperatures flow coolingwater. So hopefully I can just mount it to this one without to much trouble.
Need to think about some exhaust system with heat recovery absolute no noise and no dripping of condensing exhaust fumes at places you don't expect/want.
Thinking of putting the silent box on a raised frame and doing my exhaust 'scrubber'underneath.

I might need to order a new pully for the electromotor, it says 2400 revs max for the yanmar and that should give 1510 on the electromotor.

Yanmar has a throttle handle stop start run, I will replace it with a servo should also give me the ability to in/decrease power.
Electromotor is a dahlander two speed 1500 or 750. The tag plate was not there when I bought it but I think it is at least 8KW by the look at the size. The lister I always started on low revs and when it was running I would pop the breaker untill it reached 620rpm and then switch to the high rpm breaker.
If you 'drive'an electromotor you can use it as a generator.
For example if you read the tag and it says 3kw and 1470rpm, then when you dive it to 1530 you will generate 3kw.

To be continued,

Bernhard
Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: veggie on October 18, 2019, 03:54:33 PM
saba,

Interesting project. I am currently building the same thing using a Changfa 175. A physically smaller system than yours.
The Yanmar should run quite smooth since these engine types have internal counterbalance shafts.
Having an enclosure for the system will certainly help you get control of mechanical noise.

I have not yet found a robust throttle servo to drive with my Arduino controller. I have several plastic units from ebay (with metal gears) but I fear they may not be reliable enough. What unit do you use?

Veggie
Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: saba on October 18, 2019, 10:17:36 PM
DS3218MG
From Ali express it feels strong should pull 20kg. I haven't tried it yet  but I will.
Bernhard
Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: saba on October 18, 2019, 10:22:13 PM
I still need to figure out something nice looking and functional to pull the valve lifter. I see your blanking plate has a bit more mass then mine, bit afraid mine is to flimsy and will leak. Will post some more foto's later today.

Bernhard
Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: veggie on October 18, 2019, 10:32:38 PM
I used 3/8" (10mm) steel plate for the blanking plate.
This gave me enough material to cut pipe threads for the connections.
The pipe fittings screw right into the plate.
The inlet and outlet are different to facilitate convection.
-Outlet fitting takes water from the top of the water jacket (right at the blanking plate). The highest point.
-Water return connection has an extension below the plate which delivers cooler water to the bottom of the cooling chamber.
I intend to use an "open" system which is vented so I do not expect any pressure to build. A high temp switch is necessary to kill the engine if the temperature approaches dangerous levels due to a heat exchanger pump failure or a radiator fan failure.

Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: glort on October 18, 2019, 10:38:10 PM
Have you run the induction motor as yet? I'm thinking not.

 IMAGS are a complex and delicate balancing act.
I have played with them on an off for years and I can assure you that 3 KW motor, no matter what you read will NOT give you reliable and stable power in the correct voltage/ frequency range much above 1.5 KW.

Unlike a generator, as a stand alone you just can't load them up. They will crash the field unless carefully balanced for the load and switched loads like a fridge are neigh impossible to run without complex electronic controllers.  Fixed loads such as lights are OK long as you don't go turning them on and off but for most other variable loads, I think you would be dissapointed and find an IMAG impractical.

If you are going to grid connect it for back feeding, different thing but for stand alone use for household demands... Very limited usefulness.

I have a 12KW motor I have been playing with of late and after some trouble setting it up, I'm not real impressed. I thought having such a large motor would provide a lot better stability and ability to carry switched loads but have been pretty dissapointed.
I'm back to the years long search of a decent gen head.
Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: veggie on October 18, 2019, 10:42:55 PM
As I understand it, the over-speeding of an electric motor can certainly provide power BUT the run capacitors (ratings) must be tuned to the specific load for best power quality and performance. Once your system drifts away from the load "sweet spot" the capacitors no longer match the motor output. If you keep a constant load AND tune the capacitors you may be ok.
As glort stated, the name plate data may not reflect output capability.
I recently read an article where an electrical engineer was able to get 3kw from a 5kw motor when tuning the capacitors for a similar project.
He optimized his system for 2500 watts output.
If the load was dropped below 1800 watts the power factor went out the window. Very poor.

The power company adjusts thier massive capacitors on the fly at the power station to match loads, that's why Mains power is always optimized.
Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: saba on October 19, 2019, 12:22:03 AM
Ok for this reason I got a three fase connection at home, here in holland every house has 3 fases but mostly only one fase is connected. If you connect a 3 fase motor to the grid it wil run with slip so the more power you take off the motor the more slip you have.

If you run the motor without load it will run at 1497 rpm (guess), the more load the more slip rpm drops. But if you 'overspeed' the motor you start generating.
The stator with all the windings creates the rotating field and pulls along the simple steel rotor but if you drive the rotor you will push the field in the stator.

I spend a lot of time on this and to my recollection it was my own invention to find out later loads of guys were doing the same.

I used up more then a 1000 liters of fuel so I hope it worked......

Nice thing is you can start your engine with your generator...

Regards Bernhard

Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: saba on October 19, 2019, 12:31:41 AM
Ok to make it clear I am not using anything just a breaker to connect the motor to the net and instead of the motor driving something ... you just start driving the motor. Works like a dream.
Only thing if there is a power outage ....you need candles.

Super save, I think reasonably efficient and cheap plenty old motors for sale for scrap money.
Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: glort on October 19, 2019, 07:33:50 AM

Yep, Been there, done that, published the videos years ago.

Did you know that you can combine all 3 phases a motor back to one single phase to your grid connection?  Did you also know that adding capacitors across the legs of a 3 -phase motor will mean you DON"T have to have candles if the grid goes down? Lights are about the best thing for an IMAG to run

How much is power In Holland? It would have to be VERY expensive for running an engine to backfeed to be worthwhile even on waste oil.

If you are wanting to connect only one phase to the grid and tap power off the others, you can do that. Provisos will be firstly you will have to spin the motor to start it because It won't start on one phase. the other thing is if you tap power off the unused phases, the draw on the connected [phase will rise. Over all you will get a power loss not a gain.

Connecting 2 phases of an induction motor and tapping off the 3rd phase to a 3 phase load from a single phase supply is called a rotary inverter.  The 3rd  spare phase will generate and you use that as the 3rd leg you don't have with a 3 phase supply.  For motors this is now easier and more efficient to do with capacitors that rotary converters.

If you have a single phase supply only connected to your home, I will gaurantee you will not be able to start an engine with it when you only have 2 legs connected on the 3 phase motor.  All 3 legs, yes, you -may- be able to wind it up on the decompressor but I think even that would be an ask with a 3 KW motor on a Yanmar.

I have played with these a fair bit so if you have any questions with the electrical side, ask away.
Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: saba on October 19, 2019, 12:32:10 PM
Hey glort, I think electromotor is approx 8kw, it's two speed dahlander. I always started the lister with it so this should be a lot easier.

On paper it should be profitable, electricity I generate pays for the fuel and then the generated heat is the profit.

But it's a hobby gives you an excuse to play with engines, and gives you something to show people if some birthday visitors come over.

It doesn't matter if hobbies cost money, if you leave out all the costs apart from fuel you make money just don't count the rest...

Bernhard
Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: glort on October 19, 2019, 02:42:02 PM
But it's a hobby gives you an excuse to play with engines, and gives you something to show people if some birthday visitors come over.

It doesn't matter if hobbies cost money, if you leave out all the costs apart from fuel you make money just don't count the rest...

Bernhard

Haha!
That is some inarguable reasoning right there!   :)

Is this engine 10.5 Hp rated?

If so you could probably run it slower and gear up the induction motor to get it to the revs you need and reduce the noise and wear and tear on the engine.
I recently got a couple of 12 HP Kubotas and I agree there are a smooth engine.  Obviously a lot more compact and lighter to move around or set up.
Are you going to run yours on Diesel or waste oil? I'm running mine on 50% Used veg atm and although I haven't touched the engine, it's running perfectly happy on the mix and I can't tell any difference in starting or performance.

Are you intending to try heat recovery from the exhaust? I came across some  " EGR coolers" the other day which are in fact air to liquid heat exchangers.  They are off a variety of Euro Vehicles and the price seems  quite good for what they are.  They would be perfect to fit to an engine exhaust and circulate water through to go into the main heat load. Not sure what sort of capacity they would run but might be worth a look if you don't have an exhaust HE already.

I'd be interested to see some pics and find out more about your control setup with the arduino etc.
There are some serious stepper motors out there that may do what you want or if you could control a regular motor, what about a windscreen wiper motor with a lever on it to pull a cable for the decompressor? I was playing with some of these old motors yesterday testing them and they are geared down and have loads of  torque. A couple of limit switches or timing their energising and reversing polarity would do the trick.
Should be any number readily available cheap at wrecking yards.
Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: veggie on October 19, 2019, 03:12:41 PM

Does the Yanmar have a 12 volt electric starter motor?
I suggest trying the starter motor without the decompression lever activated before you start designing a decompression servo.
Many of the commercial applications for these engines (including marine applications) do not use the decompression lever when starting.
The 12 volt starter motor may be quite adequate to rotate through compression.
However, if you need to use the electric motor/generator to start the engine some experimentation may be needed to see if has adequate torque.
Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: veggie on October 19, 2019, 03:31:29 PM
I wonder if these generic fuel system solenoids would work for your decompression actuation.
They are fast acting and have a fairly good pull strength.
That way you don't have to use PWM signaling to drive a servo on the Arduino. Just use a digital pin to drive a solid state relay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1502-12C2U1B2S1A-Fuel-cutoff-solenoid-12V-Kubota-D1402-D1403-D1005-D1105/392399233893?hash=item5b5cd12365:g:KxIAAOSwKgZdY5wN (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1502-12C2U1B2S1A-Fuel-cutoff-solenoid-12V-Kubota-D1402-D1403-D1005-D1105/392399233893?hash=item5b5cd12365:g:KxIAAOSwKgZdY5wN)

Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: veggie on October 19, 2019, 03:36:37 PM
This one has a lever assembly. I wonder if you could drill a hole in your decompression lever and fit this hook to it.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fuel-Shut-Off-Solenoid-Valve-Shutdown-1502-12V-LPW-LPWS-LPWT-Engine-366-07197/162596784335?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D60695%26meid%3D736f52d0e74949eeb24cab18e8fd0a08%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dpf%26sd%3D362751374206%26itm%3D162596784335%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fuel-Shut-Off-Solenoid-Valve-Shutdown-1502-12V-LPW-LPWS-LPWT-Engine-366-07197/162596784335?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D60695%26meid%3D736f52d0e74949eeb24cab18e8fd0a08%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dpf%26sd%3D362751374206%26itm%3D162596784335%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851)

Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: glort on October 20, 2019, 01:10:08 AM

There is no way my Kubota will wind through compression on the starter. The chinese Vertical cylinder models will with a struggle and I have no knowledge of the Yanmars but if they are like my Kubota, not a chance. Then again, the Yanmar types seem easy to hand crank where the times I have tried the Kubota have been miserable failures. Have no problem with the Roid, the Italians and others but the Kubota is a mongeral.
Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: veggie on October 20, 2019, 01:18:36 AM

Without question it's easier on the starter to decompress. But not necessary on some engines. Very necessary on others

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV0swraaikg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV0swraaikg)
Depends on the engine.

Cranking of the engine at 6:15 minute mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phjoeEld8ac (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phjoeEld8ac)

A big 195 start without decompression. My 195 was able to easily do this also.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVJelEpPtoE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVJelEpPtoE)
Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: glort on October 20, 2019, 03:35:34 AM

Wonder if the starter on my kubota is a bit sad.?
Might be worth seeing what a new china verstion would be worth..
The compression seems high  though which is the reason i cant hand crank it.
Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: saba on October 20, 2019, 02:41:44 PM
The ts 105 is handcrank only, but fairly easy. About the fuel solenoid I was also thinking in the same direction. Thing is how to mount it looking a bit neat...from experience I know temporal mounts stay there for eternity.
Thanks for the suggestions and help'

Bernhard
Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: saba on February 11, 2020, 01:03:56 AM
Not much has happened since last time, not much time to be busy with it.  Managed to buy a pool heater as a exhaust heat recovery, and mounted it. Bought a new pully to bring down the revs to a better rpm. Been tearing down my lister cs som, what a nice beast each flywheel must be around 100kg. I really love this thing. But it's like keeping a horse in an apartment.
My cool cell motorroom still need to be torn down but I am a little reluctant with my sound damper box wich is full with soot. Will become a mess.

just yesterday I came across a genset a kubota ZB 400/500/600 with a 5kva . I know I should not be buying more stuff but it's in my home town. I made an offer of 250E guy wants 350E.
I haven't seen it yet only picture, looks like it's been outside under a plastic blanket for 5 years +.
Anyone knows these engines, its 3000rpm stuff not really my cup of tea but might be a good deal.

Regards Bernhard
Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: hwew on February 11, 2020, 01:39:27 AM
They are pretty good running engines. They are not as popular as they once were and itís getting hard to get parts for them. If itís complete and puts out power it would be a good deal.

If your just going to use the engine on another project and it has a stub shaft on the flywheel then that will save you lots of time and money. About 8 years ago it was almost impossible impossible to find the Stub shaft. It was discontinued. Some of them came with a 6 groove k belt pulley. First thing to do is take a look at it and see if it runs. Than see what the parts availability is. Radiators seem to take a beating because of the engines vibration. Brother went through 2 radiators on his zb600. He is still running if but as I mentioned earlier parts are Becoming hard to find.
Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: hwew on February 11, 2020, 01:45:53 AM
They run pretty good between 2600-3000 RPMís I believe they weíre rated up to 3200 RPMís

Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: saba on February 12, 2020, 10:15:48 AM
Thanks for your info, I threw out some bait but no luck yet.

Parts are pretty expensive no point of paying to much. Maybe in some time without any interest of other people it might show up again.

Still busy with dismantling my old chp, lot of soot and black from breather of the sump. Not a nice job.

Bernhard
Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: glort on February 13, 2020, 01:04:28 AM

 Managed to buy a pool heater as a exhaust heat recovery, and mounted it.

Is this the heat exchanger out of a gas fired heater?
Are you going to run the exhaust through where the water normally goes and blow air past the fins for heating or are you going to blow the exhaust past the fins like in the heater setup and circulate water through the tubes?

I have a few of These HE's and a complete unit I'm building into a heater for the house.  I'm replacing the gas burner with one of my oil burners and going to circulate water through the tubes and then to a Radiator in the house. The small HE I have is rated at 100 Kw so should have ample capacity for what I'm doing  :0)

Title: Re: Yanmar chp
Post by: saba on February 14, 2020, 03:48:14 PM
It,s a water heated poolheater, I'll give it a try. Can sell it if it doesn't work.
But still busy with dismantling and cleaning garbage of old chp.

bernhard