Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: StrawHat on August 18, 2019, 06:38:39 AM
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Since a lot of the Listeroids use tapered bearings, who makes these bearings? The steel quality, heat treat, and grinding will have a huge impact on lifespan. I can't see Timken quality coming out of a India bearing factory. It's possible that an old fashion babbit bearing fed by an oil pump would outlast a bad quality splash lubricated tapered bearing. In reality, in a splash system like that, both the mains and the rod bearings would need to be high quality USA made roller bearings to outlast those old time tested oil pump fed plain bearings.
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The TRB's in the Listeriods have not had a single reported failure in the 10 years or so I've been following the related forum(s). My own 6/1 Listeroid (a 2008 vintage Metro) had casting sand hidden in a lump of black grease under the crown of the piston; intentional sabotage, apparently. It took me a while an a half dozen bearing shells to find. Despite this, the TRB's are still in service 3000+ hrs later. It's pretty clear the TRB's are not of Rajkot manufacture.
There are plenty of quality issues with Rajkot CS Clones and Listeroids, but the TRB's of the Listeroids aren't one of them.
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As Bruce said I don't recall any TRB main failures being reported here, never seen a bad one in the shop. Matter of fact I have only experienced worn out mains once and that was on a Lister 6/1 CS. None the less if one frets the India TrBs are set of Timkins or similar quality is not a whole lot of money.
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Well, glad to hear at least one brand of roid is using professionally manufactured bearings. What about the rest? Are they using split cranks so rolling element bearings can be used on the rod bearing as well as the mains? I would hate to have a splash lubricated sleeve type rod bearing in a unit with tapered bearing mains. The mains would last a long time but the rod bearings would be a definite weak link. I would like to know more about some of these Lister "copy" engines before thinking about getting one.
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The big end of the rod uses the same split babbit bearing.that was user in the CS lister.
India engines very in detail from heavily modified and simplified to exact copies or as some of us say, clones.
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The concept of "brands" is pretty meaningless for all the roids/clones made in Rajkot. Parts are made in the same small shops, and assemblers then put various labels on them. Quality varies wildly for all. It seems to be all paid per piece work, so some days anything goes. It's not typical India, it's something Rajkot is infamous for in India, according to a native that reported here. With skill, patience and some rework, a good engine can be built or a CS restored with their parts. A machine shop will often be needed for some rework.
If you can't find a Lister CS, and can accept the parts cost and rebuild labor as part of the deal, they aren't a bad kit of parts. It helps to buy from a reputable dealer like Diesel Electric Services, as if you do get an part that can't be used, Gary has spares and will ship in a day. I have no connection, just experience helping with my neighbor's DES 8/1. I give DES a five of five star rating, and I'm not "easy". If buying a used 'roid or clone, set your price assuming you will find a major part that must be replaced (even a cylinder head) and then hope to get lucky.
During the heyday of the Listeroids, before the EPA banned them, some US sellers were touting their brand(s) and suggesting that total tear downs weren't necessary. It was wishful thinking. No one was successful in getting Rajkot to make consistent upgrades to their normal wild variation in quality, from container to next container, despite a great deal of skill, time and effort in trying to work with them.
I have a 'roid myself, with only splash lube, missing two head bolts, no lower sump or oil pump, plus a cylinder liner. I don't mind any of those mods, they are all OK as far as service life of the engine. Parts are commonly available. My neighbor's is a clone. Some extra plumbing and an oil pump to fiddle with but some real value in having it be a true CS in terms of parts way, way down the road. In the used market I'd not turn my nose up at either Listeroid, or Clone, but would have preferred a Lister. I just couldn't find one in my part of the country.
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Hi Guys, sorry to have been away for a while. I have a Cooper petrol engine in my shed, it has taper roller bearings (Timkin 412/414) the bearing on the output/drive belt end has failed. It is most unusual for taper bearings to fail, I suspect that the belt tension was excessive causing a lateral load that resulted in the bearing failure. The replacement cost for an original bearing and cup are exorbitant (circa $400 each). I will probably have to machine out the bearing housings to take the next nearest metric taper bearings. I will also have to turn up some bushes to expand the size of the crankshaft main journals.
I would not be concerned about a low RPM engine with TRBs, I would however be very careful about getting the end float correct by adding or removing shims/gaskets to manufacturers specifications. You should also check that the big end is centered bellow the cylinder.
Bob
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Hi Glort, yes they want that sort of money. These bearings are imperial sizes and no longer manufactured, SKF bearings still manufacture a 414 taper bearing cup but not the 1 and 9/16 inch bore taper bearing race. I will be going to visit a friend of mine in Grafton next week, he thinks that the Moffat Virtue engine of the same period had the same bearings and he has a yard full of defunct engines. I`m hoping I can find a suitable old bearing race if not, I am back to machining the housings to take more modern metric cups and taper bearings.
After lunch yesterday, the postman arrived with a Lucas RS1 magneto for this Cooper engine. I bought it on fleabay for $35 including postage. It was advertised as incomplete and I thought it was worth a punt rather than coughing up ten times that for a reconditioned unit. It was incomplete but only missing a few screws, insulating washers and a cover plate for the points. A day later it now looks good and kicks out a serious spark, my fingers are still stinging from the first output that occurred when I was tightening up the screws on the Bakelite distributor cover. It still has the original magneto coil/points and condenser made in the 1950`s, very impressed that it made my hair stand on end after all these years. I will probably replace the old condenser and points and try to remagnetize the rotor but if it ain`t broke no point in trying to fix it!
I`ll try to post some before and after pics tomorrow.
Bob
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https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=timken+414+bearing&_sacat=0 (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=timken+414+bearing&_sacat=0)
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2057872.m570.l1312.R1.TR0.TRC0.A0.H0.TRS5&_nkw=timken+412+bearing&_sacat=0 (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2057872.m570.l1312.R1.TR0.TRC0.A0.H0.TRS5&_nkw=timken+412+bearing&_sacat=0)
Ajaffa1: do none of these fit your engine?
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Just a little helpful Timken bearing information.
Timken sold tapered roller bearings either as individual cups(aka races) and cones (aka bearings) or as sets of both. Sets carried thier own part numbers that do not coenside with the cup or cone numbers. Also their are sets that contain cups and cones that are not available as separate pieces for a variety or reasons. Some have special I.D. some have special O.D. some have special fit to give "X" distance between the back of the cone and the front of the cup.
Thus the suggested 414 set does not contain a 414 cone and it is possible that Bob's combww2ination of parts could have only been sold as a set. Somewhere I have a complete catalog that would give Bob the answer but could not lay my fingers on it this AM :(
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Thanks guys, I have been researching the replacement bearing issue. Having spoken to a number of bearing suppliers they all confirm the cost of a Timken 412/422 bearing at around $350 plus postage. This is much more than I paid for the engine and more than I am willing to spend on it.
Today I purchased a pair of NTN 32210 taper bearings for around $40 each. These are a metric bearing with a 50 mm internal diameter and a 90 mm outside diameter. I will have to bore out the bearing housings by 1.5 mm and turn up some bushes to take the existing crankshaft from 1 9/16 inches to 50 mm. I will also have to place some shims behind the bearings to ensure that the crankshaft end float is within tolerance. I will try to post some pictures of the lathe work and assembly as I go.
I might have to start a new thread showing how this work is done, don`t want AdeV chasing me down for going off topic! :laugh:
Bob
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Hi Glort, I`m guessing that the excessive cost of these bearings is that they are a 1940/50 design so are no longer manufactured, if they are still made it will be small batch production with excessive production costs.
Isn`t it a shame that old stuff is valuable but old people are considered a liability.
Your Dad has the right idea, $50 investment to return $12 a thousand times, that is a nice little earner! I am glad that he is still using it and enjoying it.
Yes I still have the skills to do this sort of work, trouble is I no longer have the eyesight to read the instruments, guess we will have to hope it works out OK.
Bob
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38AC: Thank you for sharing your knowledge; I didn't know that.
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One trick I've used a few times on gearboxes, etc. is to find a metric bearing that is very close to the imperial size. Slightly over on the cup, and slightly under on the shaft bore of the cone. Mount the cup up on an arbor, set up in a cylindrical grinder and take the OD down to the needed imperial size. For the cone use ID grinding to open up the shaft bore to the imperial size. Ceramic turning tools can also be used in both OD and ID situations as long as the race doesn't have a lube hole in it. In other words, convert a metric bearing to an imperial sized bearing. Only works in a few select cases though where close sized metric bearings can be obtained, otherwise the races get too thin. Never alter the actual bearing rolling surfaces though.
In the old days when a bearing wore out, you'd just melt out the old babbit and re-pour new babbit. Usually the shaft served as part of the mold, so after some light clean up work the bearing was ready to go again with no machining. Light scraping was the most that was ever needed. Excellent for rough in the field repairs.
Didn't some of the old CS engines use babbit?
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Hi Strawhat, grinding bearing races to fit an unusual or no longer available bearing size is very good advice provided you have access to a grinder and you keep the coolant flowing, wouldn`t want to alter the hardening/tempering with excess heat. Sadly I do not own a grinding machine. Many years ago I did have a lathe with a grinding attachment that would have been perfect for this situation. I tried not to use it too often as I was concerned about the amount of abrasive dust it deposited on the lathe sliding surfaces.
Yes, a lot of Lister engines have babbit filled bearings. I have only had to pour a new babbit bearing once on a very old saw milling machine, The trick is to coat the shaft with carbon from an oxy/acetylene torch with the oxygen turned off, once the shaft is well coated with soot, turn on the oxygen and warm up the bearing/bush housing, now pour your babbit. The soot will prevent it from sticking to the shaft.
Hi Glort, I have used head warn lamps a lot in the past and they are an excellent addition to any tool box, I used to keep a rechargeable LED set in the glove box of my UTE, when I got a flat tire at night it was invaluable. I have also used the cheap plastic safety glasses with the bifocal magnifying lens at the bottom. If I remember rightly, they come in five different strengths depending on how bad your eyes are, I guess I would need a number 5 now! :laugh:
Bob
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I'll bet some of those babbit Lister engines were the ones that have been reported to have lasted 40 years without serious internal maintenance.
Pretty much the entire steam engine era ran on babbit up to the early 1900's. Then came oil engines and early "glow tube" petrol engines. Note that oil engines are not true diesel engines. The compression ignition engine came along later. Not sure if Rudolf Diesel is the actual true inventor of the compression engine, but he perfected the idea into mass production.
Oil engines became popular at one time, taking over a lot of jobs once done by steam engines. About the best thermal efficiency from the best piston steam engines was only 6-7%, the oil engine almost immediately jumped to 12 %. Double that of steam. This ushered in internal combustion as the favorite power source of the time. Then came petrol engines with even better efficiency, especially after the spark plug was invented, and then the compression ignition engine with the best fuel efficiency.
An interesting European farm tractor (forgot the name) using an oil engine had no reverse gear. The driver simply cut the fuel, waited just before the engine completely stalled, hit the fuel again and the engine restarted in reverse. Those engines ran equally well in either direction! While those oil engines would run on just about any oil that would burn, they still only got about half the efficiency of an indirect injection CS Lister. They use an entirely different principle than compression ignition engines.
Hi Strawhat, grinding bearing races to fit an unusual or no longer available bearing size is very good advice provided you have access to a grinder and you keep the coolant flowing, wouldn`t want to alter the hardening/tempering with excess heat. Sadly I do not own a grinding machine. Many years ago I did have a lathe with a grinding attachment that would have been perfect for this situation. I tried not to use it too often as I was concerned about the amount of abrasive dust it deposited on the lathe sliding surfaces.
Yes, a lot of Lister engines have babbit filled bearings. I have only had to pour a new babbit bearing once on a very old saw milling machine, The trick is to coat the shaft with carbon from an oxy/acetylene torch with the oxygen turned off, once the shaft is well coated with soot, turn on the oxygen and warm up the bearing/bush housing, now pour your babbit. The soot will prevent it from sticking to the shaft.
Hi Glort, I have used head warn lamps a lot in the past and they are an excellent addition to any tool box, I used to keep a rechargeable LED set in the glove box of my UTE, when I got a flat tire at night it was invaluable. I have also used the cheap plastic safety glasses with the bifocal magnifying lens at the bottom. If I remember rightly, they come in five different strengths depending on how bad your eyes are, I guess I would need a number 5 now! :laugh:
Bob
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Herbert Akroyd Stuart is the man you're thinking of, well worth a read up.......
Cheers Stef
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Hi StrawHat, I don`t know what it is you are trying to achieve but if you want an engine that will run 24/7 for the next ten years then the Lister CS is about as good as it gets. These things were built to last forever, all the spares you could ever want are still available. You should contact Gary (aka Dieselgman) and find out what he has available, 38ac might also be able to hook you up with an original CS.
I am lucky here in Australia because Rob at Old Timer Engines keeps every spare imaginable. He also buys and sells old stationary engines, some are just for garden ornaments and others he strips down and recycles the parts. I still think you should check out Gary at Diesel Electric Services. Sadly he does not post much here anymore, not because he is disinterested but because the US law has made it illegal for him to advertise servicing of engines that no longer meet the government emissions standards.
I believe the best efficiency of any engine is now held by the common rail diesel engine, sadly VW/Audi fiddled the emission figures and gave diesel engines a bad name.
Bob
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Gary at Diesel Electric Services. Sadly he does not post much here anymore, not because he is disinterested but because the US law has made it illegal for him to advertise servicing of engines that no longer meet the government emissions standards.
Bob
Bob,
Gary has his reasons for not being on here much but that isnt one of them as it is entirely legal for him or anyone else to rebuild or sell parts for an older diesel engine and advertise those services. Certain manufacturers have made deals with the EPA where THEY will not supply remanufactured engines that do not meet current regulations and they must destroy and cores that are turned in to them. These manufacturer deals do not affect the aftermarket in any way.
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Hi 38ac, I`m sure Gary posted on here a while back that he was having advertising/selling issues with the EPA, but what do I know I live in Australia.
I do hope he is not suffering the sort of health issues that effect us all at our age, please pass on my best wishes and tell him the forum is missing his knowledge and insight.
Bob
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Hi Bob,
Unless I missed something, entirely probable Gary answered a question as to why he didn't expand his web presence and update his web site with by saying he didn't want or need unwanted attention to his clone parts business.
Truth of the matter is interest in India engines is just about done due to low cost solar, EPA, quality issues etc as the fellow at Boltan Equipment will soon find out.
Another large factor is I would guess that fully 90% of people who bought Listeroids never did anything useful with them and they are just decorations in the shed or garage. A lot of people are tired of looking at them and there are quite a few for sale, often at bargain prices.
Gary is well, just spoke with him yesterday via email. The subject of this forum wasn't breached, I have no insight as to why he has left.
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Hi Bob and Butch
I think I know why.
Recently I read all the topic of the "import from england". what a mexican novelle (2 years!)
And I think some sort of mistrust landed in Gary's lap with some LEF members breaking the joint venture of the endeavour.
And that can kill the amusement of posting, among other vicissitudes I don't need to describe... like understand antipodean humour (quote).
We must respect our diferences... All of them! Cultural, age, life experience, social awareness... and 1000's of others.
Giving an exemple: I need a stock key 9/16*5/16 paralell. USA suppliers can't sell it to me because of export fees, and I can't jeopardize a friendship to circumventing this situation.
While we talking here together, about - most of all antiques that does't complie to EPA's (worldwide) but indeed are priceless for us - and fulfill our will of living, and maintain healthy mind - the real world just want a quick enrichment no matter how, nor who.
Just my thoughts. Do not censure me ...
Have a happy life, please.
VP
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Bargain prices? Most people selling these things are on fishing expeditions trying to get a bite on ridiculous prices. P.T. Barnum would be proud of anyone selling scrap iron for $3.00 a pound when its only worth $0.20 a pound at the most.
Truth of the matter is interest in India engines is just about done due to low cost solar, EPA, quality issues etc as the fellow at Boltan Equipment will soon find out.
Another large factor is I would guess that fully 90% of people who bought Listeroids never did anything useful with them and they are just decorations in the shed or garage. A lot of people are tired of looking at them and there are quite a few for sale, often at bargain prices.