Lister Engine Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mikenash on August 05, 2019, 07:24:07 PM

Title: Tesla
Post by: mikenash on August 05, 2019, 07:24:07 PM
Hey Glort I thought you might be interested in this as an example of ownership costs for one of these

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhbD44jXffY
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: LowGear on August 06, 2019, 06:20:37 PM
Elon Fanboy Here!

Owning a part of a paradigm change will always have it's costs.  Diving the most advanced automobile in the world will also have costs.  Let's face it "Nice stuff costs more!" "The best is never cheap".

And you're not poisoning everyone you pass or your very safe passengers.  Is it true they're the safest production cars in the world?

The real innovation of the Tesla brand is their network updates.  They figure out a better way to do things on Tuesday and a couple of weeks later every unit that is compatible is updated rather than the owner being encouraged to buy the new and improved model or schedule a recall update appointment with the dealer.

Tesla's charging system will keep Tesla alive for many, many years.

I'm playing with a Fiat 500e and only dream of a Tesla.  My 4,000 miles a year on two different chunks of land make an expensive automobile out of any real question.  The Fiat is fast (up to 70 MPH) and drives really nice and is easy to drive as most small cars are without the giant hood to house the 19th century power supply.  I think there may be more moving parts in an ICE six than in an entire Tesla.

I'm wondering how the big battery experiment is going?  I hear they're going to save Australia from it's failure to plan for the 21st century.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: mikenash on August 06, 2019, 09:07:09 PM
IMHO. What we Missing here - regardless of whether were fanboys or haters - is what this 450,000 mile maintenance cost record tells us.

He says $0.06 a mile all up. Maybe hes fudged a few numbers or maybe he hasnt?

But if that car is compared with a luxury car of comparable size with a petrol engine Id guess it would do about 30MPG. With gas at $2.05 here - thats $0.33  per mile for gas alone

Regardless of arguments about who paid for what - those are the numbers Id be focusing on
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: veggie on August 07, 2019, 01:51:34 AM

I like the "Idea" of an EV, but current calculations show that over the live of the vehicle they are more carbon intensive that conventional cars.
(When we factor in the mining of the rare earth metals that go into the motors and the disposal of the used batteries.)
As far as exhaust emissions, the EV's are just shifting the combustion away from the vehicle and over to a coal fired (or natural gas fired) generating facility. Over time the power grid will have to grow immensely to accommodate the power demand. Grid growth will demand a huge amount of metal mining (wire) and fossil fuels to to implement. In more remote places like some of the Hawaiian islands (Maui for example) the combustion process is shifted from gasoline (in the car) over to to the three large oil fired generators on the island.
Solar can charge cars too as long as the sun shines and the solar array in big enough.
Maybe the world needs a mix of all types of locomotion and power generation to lessen the load on any single source.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BruceM on August 07, 2019, 04:57:09 AM
Tesla doesn't use rare earth magnets in their motors-  they are variable speed 3 phase induction motors; copper and steel.  That's been public knowledge since their introduction.
The cobalt in the batteries have been reduced substantially in the newer versions. 

I don't think Tesla is going away, and they are selling their drivetrains and batteries to other companies.  Their battery management hardware is presently the best in the world. 





Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: AdeV on August 07, 2019, 08:33:36 AM
People also go on about batterys getting cheaper. I find that laughable and ignorant. 

With all due respect - I vehemently disagree. Consider - battery technology was rapidly developed in the late C19th, and almost completely stalled in the early C20th with the rise and rise of the internal combustion engine. It's only in the late C20th that interest in batteries started to revive - mainly because of these newfangled mobile/cell phone things, and the advent of laptops. Battery research and technology is now at a fever pitch, and is only going to get bigger as the market grows. More potential sales $ = more research = better, smaller (size... bigger capacity), faster.

If one looks beyond the media hype, Current tech batteries in Lipo etc have already fallen all they are going to through production and scaling.  The resources to make them are limited,

Agreed - lithium has a finite lifetime as a battery tech. It's served us well, much like leaded petrol did in the early days of the petrol engine, and now it's time is drawing to an end. Alternative chemistries are being researched now; some (many) will prove to be impractical for one reason or another, but it only takes one or two to beat LiPO, and the job's done.

And yes, yes, before you say it: There's a massive difference between R&D/lab scale experiments, than a commercial quality offering, but the demand IS there now; the demand is ONLY going to get higher; and DEMAND is what will drive the R&D into commercialisation. It may not be the best tech that wins (see VHS vs. Betamax), but whatever tech comes through will be good enough.


The argument about generation and delivery capacity..... yeah, well, that's a whole different gether all to twist.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: mikenash on August 07, 2019, 09:01:20 AM
What's Betamax and VHS grandad? lol  I can hear my kids now

PLus , of course, we have 85%+ renewable power here with our hydro and wind - so my viewpoint is biased because of that
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: mike90045 on August 07, 2019, 03:07:05 PM
Geothermal power.  They keep trying, but the dissolved minerals plug up the works very quickly.  Under heat and pressure, they stay in solution, but as you  extract energy (heat exchanges, direct to turbine) the works get gummed up.   The Geysers thermal plant near me in Northern Calif, is more of a way for the utility to play and say they are using green power, but it's often down for repair more than it's working, regardless what wikipedia says

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geysers



Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: LowGear on August 07, 2019, 06:38:51 PM
My Fiat 500e drives very nicely.  It's so wonderful to walk down to the car and it's fueling system is full every morning.  Okay, in the Pacific Northwest the Grand Coulee Dam is a socialist device but other than that it's really nice.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BruceM on August 07, 2019, 07:55:34 PM
AdeV's point on battery investment and research is a good one.  Capitalism is a mixed blessing but when there is big money to be made in a growing global market, capital is deployed and much effort will ensue.  Alas, more on incremental improvements than basic research, but still a great deal of effort.

Sure would be great if the US gov. would get it's head out of the sand and commit to being part of the solution. That would stimulate capital investment in US firms and help develop the technology we need.

Flow batteries have my interest for longer term storage.  The iron based flow batteries are particularly interesting to me for stationary applications in that the materials and "electrolyte" are common and not toxic. 





Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: mikenash on August 07, 2019, 08:27:42 PM
Re thermal energy in Rotorua

Last generation's houses there and nearby all had heat-exchanger loops going down into the thermal to heat houses, water etc

But over time the accumulated draw of them depleted the energy available to geysers etc in the tourist areas.  Tourism's our biggest single earner and, back then, Rotorua was a big part of it - so the individual heat-exchangers were banned
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: mikenash on August 08, 2019, 05:58:02 AM
I dont have $100,000 - or even $1000 most days - but Im willing to wager the traditional Box of Beer that Tesla will be (a) alive and (b) profitable in four years
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: LowGear on August 08, 2019, 07:23:47 AM
Elon has already changed the world.  Electric transportation and rocket innovation will not be the same.  Let's not forget the Model S that started this thread had over 400,000 miles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyZOLMeMYnI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyZOLMeMYnI)

The storage system I like is the stacked weights that are raised to store the energy and let down for recovery.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: mikenash on August 08, 2019, 09:32:59 AM
Casey, the trouble with this is that it's like arguing with strangers on the internet over issues

(In fact . . . .)

That's because folks tend to have a viewpoint/prejudice/preconception to which they are attached and they're likely to dismiss evidence that doesn't support their viewpoint and embrace evidence that does (we're using "evidence" loosely here

Thus, say, our reactionary Australian colleague - should he watch your video - is quite likely mentally formulating a counter-argument even as the two bald gentlemen are speaking (in the same way in which when the Jehova's Witnesses come to your door, if you make the mistake of engaging them in conversation - as you are speaking, they're not actually listening to you, they're just thinking of what they're gonna say next)

Whereas my liberal (soft, commie, pinko, idealistic) Kiwi self already has a mindset that aligns with what those two blokes are saying and so I think they - and you - are making a lot of sense

The old jokes about this process resulting in heat rather than shedding light, or about how politicians use statistics like a drunk uses a lamppost (more for support than for illumination) apply here  IMHO
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: LowGear on August 08, 2019, 04:53:00 PM
I can only lead our brothers and sisters to the water.  If they think it is for drinking or washing then how am I to convince them that redemption is only one splash away?

The challenge is to move the lamp post a few feet from where it was this morning.

I suspect that if we all saw a serious, for real pinko, commie, lefty that we pseudo progressives would be the most anxious.  One of my favorite friends could do a two part harmony with the conservative many so I had to grin whilst reading your dose of reality.  Hence my flirtation with heresy in the first paragraph.

Aloha,
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: LowGear on August 08, 2019, 10:36:12 PM
I told you I am a Tesla Fan Boy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGA5UsTLWt8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGA5UsTLWt8)
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: mikenash on August 09, 2019, 02:47:30 AM
0 - 100 Ks in 1.9 seconds. Whats not to enjoy
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BruceM on August 09, 2019, 04:44:57 AM
I'm more interested in something much more modest and lightweight and with a range of 70 miles... if only I could manage a couple hours in one without getting wrecked.  It's about 26 miles to the nearest grocery store.  A bit over 30 miles to a decent one.

I'm interested in pancake motors; no rotating ferrous materials/magnets so by one ME's report, very low stray field.  I'm not familiar with the non-brushed pancake configuration yet.



Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: veggie on August 09, 2019, 04:51:34 PM
I am a fan of electric vehicles and I like the idea of a centrally managed clean power plant (like natural gas).
Where I have issue is with most of the people I chat with think that the world atmospheric issues will quickly be solved if we were to switch to electric cars, wind turbines, and solar panels. Nothing could be further from the truth.
The massive amounts of raw materials needed to make an automobile do not change much between Internal Combustion and electric machines.
Engine components are replaced my semiconductors made in chip factories requiring exotic mined minerals and power hungry climate controlled robotics environments. Regardless of being EV or IC, billions of gallons of diesel and terrawatts of dirty electricity are used every year to mine the steel, run the factories, deliver the vehicles, make the tires,...etc..etc
Our current civilization is now built on long distance travel (even to get a pint of milk) and all the EV does is change a small part of the mode of travel.
The rest of the mega-infastructure remains and would take 100 years to reverse if there were sufficient collective and cooperative desire to reverse it.
The argument that EV's are a key step to controlling global warming does not hold water with me.
CO2 is only 4% of our total atmosphere and cannot possibly contribute enough to heat it up the way climate alarmists are claiming.
Secondly C02 has a logarithmic heat property where by doubling the amount of C02 only results in 1/2 the gain in greenhouse heating capability.
If doubling world C02 from 200 ppm to 400 ppm creates a rise of 1 deg C, then a another 1 deg C increase would take a doubling again from 400 ppm to 800 ppm. And 1 more degree would take a doubling from 800 ppm to 1600 ppm, and so on.
This is a known fact by the majority of climate scientists and it's beginning to create a huge rift between the alarmists and those who disagree that man made  C02 is causing the warming.
I apologize in advance for my C02 rant and I remain open to any friendly scientific debate on my current thinking.

Back to EV's...
It's just another form of transport that will do little to help the planet. HOWEVER...it may revitalize the auto industry ! Money, jobs, taxes.
And yes, as a "spanner head" I look forward to having a small electric car soon that I can charge with my Listeroid or my solar panels as well as the local grid which is natural gas powered.
But I don't think I will be helping the planet much. The biggest help would be to not buy another car at all... of any kind.
IMHO the bigger problems which need attention are ocean over fishing, waste chemical pollution, and mega factory animal farming.

Phew !
Sorry


Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: veggie on August 09, 2019, 04:59:56 PM
I'm more interested in something much more modest and lightweight and with a range of 70 miles... if only I could manage a couple hours in one without getting wrecked.  It's about 26 miles to the nearest grocery store.  A bit over 30 miles to a decent one.

I'm interested in pancake motors; no rotating ferrous materials/magnets so by one ME's report, very low stray field.  I'm not familiar with the non-brushed pancake configuration yet.

Re: Pancakes

I have always been intrigued by pancake generators and axial flux generators. I don't have the ability to build one into the flywheel of my Lister like this fellow did. But I do like the idea of it being integral to the engine with no belts and pulleys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyJYdHzwsy4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyJYdHzwsy4)
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: veggie on August 09, 2019, 07:31:12 PM
I told you I am a Tesla Fan Boy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGA5UsTLWt8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGA5UsTLWt8)

Casey, help me out here...

No disrespect intended ...
These points about being able to play retro video games and connect to the web for software updates all seem like "fluff" to me.
... And 0 to 100 in 1.9 seconds should be a concerning issue to the ecologically minded.
To achieve that kind of acceleration with that weight of car takes around 450HP.
That's 450HP of electricity instantly drained from the battery which must now be charged (probably by a coal fired generating plant if you live in the US, or maybe Nuclear) earlier than it would if the car were limited to say 180HP.
So it's really no different that dropping a 400HP internal combustion engine into a new Ford Mustang and putting it on the market.

As I said earlier, I like EV's, I just don't see them as a solution to the real issues that face us.
What factor am I missing in the EV pardigm?
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BruceM on August 09, 2019, 08:44:39 PM
I can only agree that renewables are only a small part of the puzzle...and I wish we'd get back on where we left off around 1972 with the vastly safer, non-pressurized liquid fluoride thorium reactor (LFTR) at Oak Ridge.  It's a proven and highly efficient design that could use the waste from rare earth mining tailings, so no new mining would be needed for hundreds of years.  The amount of radioactive waste is also a tiny fraction of the fast breeder reactors, and it's nearly impossible to get bomb material from them. We are using the first successful design for nuclear submarines for our power plants 50 years later, and ignored all the safety warnings in our lust for nuclear weapons.  Pressurized water, fast breeder reactors are nuts for civilian use.

The notion that since CO2 is only 4% thus can't be the problem makes me think you benefit from reading more on the subject that is peer reviewed science.  There's this thing called the Dunning Kruger effect...






Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: mikenash on August 09, 2019, 09:21:21 PM
I'm more interested in something much more modest and lightweight and with a range of 70 miles... if only I could manage a couple hours in one without getting wrecked.  It's about 26 miles to the nearest grocery store.  A bit over 30 miles to a decent one.

I'm interested in pancake motors; no rotating ferrous materials/magnets so by one ME's report, very low stray field.  I'm not familiar with the non-brushed pancake configuration yet.

Re: Pancakes

I have always been intrigued by pancake generators and axial flux generators. I don't have the ability to build one into the flywheel of my Lister like this fellow did. But I do like the idea of it being integral to the engine with no belts and pulleys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyJYdHzwsy4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyJYdHzwsy4)

That is one smart, rich chap.  Look at all the beautiful Outback gear

Re the environment etc, democracy is its own worst enemy in that the fear of "losing the next election" is what drives politicians/decision makers (See Winston Churchill for options, sadly)

As a rural dweller who travels widely in our small country I have watched our primary dairy industry wreck big chunks of our environment while our "leaders" stood and applauded the contribution that industry makes to our economy.  Who can blame them?  Voters will throw them off the Treasury Benches if they do anything that threatens our standard of living

The poor old planet (IMHO) needs less people using/wasting less stuff.  The debate over what % of the solution RVs might be, or what contribution clean nuclear might make, or how much of the available water the Dairy Industry should be allowed to use - these (again IMHO) will all be sideshows until we as a species adopt a "stewardship" viewpoint rather than a "consumer" one

I wonder what the average age of the folks on this forum is?  And, even though we have diverse viewpoints, perhaps, as a group, we might be characterised as "thoughtful"?  But I doubt many of us are influential

Our children and grandchildren will have to deal with the mess we started somewhere in the consumer-driven growth after WW2 when the world seemed young & its bounties endless
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BruceM on August 10, 2019, 02:57:12 AM
I'd forgotten about the pancake type motor as a popular wind turbine due to lack of cogging.  Not much power to be had at low winds where cogging is a concern but at least something.

Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: veggie on August 10, 2019, 03:53:12 PM
"I stood in the back yard yesterday and could see the furthermost trees I can see blowing clearly in 3 different directions at the same time.
How the heck does that work??"

I'm guessing you were at the boundary of two large wind fronts each in a different direction (also the cause of tornado rotation), or you were in a large downdraft area where cool air is rapidly displacing warmer ground air. In any case, it sounds like it was very windy  ;D
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BruceM on August 10, 2019, 03:56:36 PM
Your winds sound like ours.  We have what are called dust devils here in the warmer months;  tiny thermally driven tornadoes that can start suddenly, move erratically, throw stuff in all directions, then disappear. One time at my last home one picked up an upside down canoe nestled against the lee of the  house, spun it around and stuffed one end through the steel siding into my portland cement plaster on steel lathe wall.   Our spring winds are ferocious. My last home was on a ridge, with great views and gusts to 100mph each spring.  My current home is in a hollow, with hills on three sides, facing rock formations on the north.  I still have a D-ring in the concrete patio on the south, with wrought iron table and chairs tied down, though they are nestled between hill and house south wall.  Winds are 10-15 mph less in the hollow, which helps greatly.

Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: mike90045 on August 10, 2019, 04:37:53 PM
you take your axial flux gen head and wrap it around the flywheels:
http://www.windsine.org/2017/02/07/listeroid-backup-generator/

build links are at archive.org
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: LowGear on August 10, 2019, 07:50:34 PM
Dear Group,

I often remind my brothers and sisters:
     Psychological projection is a defense mechanism people subconsciously employ in order to cope with difficult feelings or emotions. Psychological projection involves projecting undesirable feelings or emotions onto someone else, rather than admitting to or dealing with the unwanted feelings.Nov 15, 2017
Psychological Projection: Dealing With Undesirable Emotions
https://www.everydayhealth.com/.../psychological-projection-dealing-with-undesirable-e...  (Links don't C&P well)

The conservative mind and the need to villainize the messenger.  It's fun to witness and sends up the flag of caution.  I also like the ratio of ill thoughts to the threat of the message.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: LowGear on August 10, 2019, 08:23:03 PM
Aloha BruceM,

Thank you for the kind words.  I'm far less concerned about being disrespected than snorting diesel smoke while caught in traffic.  While my Fiat almost stops while stopped the busses do not.

I don't have a proper answer to the wants of children.  I don't know why so many cars focus on useless acceleration.  I bought my Bosch powered Fiat because it seemed rational.  Even it jumps out from under me.  Oh, Tesla has re-specked the new roadster to 2.1 seconds to about 60 MPH.  Far more sane huh?

The video games only work when the Teslas is motionless.  The games do not use the accelerator pedal.  Do you have a car that has a radio?  Maps?

Regardless if we're frying eggs or accelerating full throttle in a Tesla roadster the grid needs cleaning.  This is not a reflection of the electric car but rather on the grid.  Please, let's not assume fossil fuel production is without sin.  It's a nasty dirty business with many victims.  And like other sellers of addictive substances they will suppress the truth via lies, conspiracy and denial.  My understanding is that there is 4 KW in every gallon of gasoline.

Another thesis is that large scale energy programs can be more friendly than small ones.  Now who does that serve?

Wouldn't it be neat if we lived in a world where everything is true and good.  If you find that world please email me.  The point you're missing with EVs is that they are created by homo sapiens.  And you know about the infestation they are bringing to the planet.  I think the planet just might be fighting back. 
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: mikenash on August 10, 2019, 10:00:16 PM
Dear Group,

I often remind my brothers and sisters:
     Psychological projection is a defense mechanism people subconsciously employ in order to cope with difficult feelings or emotions. Psychological projection involves projecting undesirable feelings or emotions onto someone else, rather than admitting to or dealing with the unwanted feelings.Nov 15, 2017
Psychological Projection: Dealing With Undesirable Emotions
https://www.everydayhealth.com/.../psychological-projection-dealing-with-undesirable-e...  (Links don't C&P well)

The conservative mind and the need to villainize the messenger.  It's fun to witness and sends up the flag of caution.  I also like the ratio of ill thoughts to the threat of the message.

A sometimes amusing, often tiresome, always over-the-top display of the combination of deep insecurity with narcissism - that's what we're watching

I was gonna say "you could write a book"  but all you'd really have to do is cut-and-paste lol
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: veggie on August 10, 2019, 10:57:04 PM

Lowgear,

I get what you are saying. I'm not sure if there is any solution at this point.
And certainly no points that we need to argue. Just not important enough. Opinions are just that. And an open mind is necessary.
The elephant in the room is "overpopulation" and "human nature".
Everything stems from there.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: LowGear on August 11, 2019, 06:52:24 PM
Hey Veggie,

I absolutely agree.

and

Sometimes I use the words of others to lend credence and not to spin my wheels writing what has been better written.  I'd suggest my lazy boy links at the least caught some attention. 

Quote
A sometimes amusing, often tiresome, always over-the-top display of the combination of deep insecurity with narcissism - that's what we're watching
And yet the messenger lives.

Before it gets stupidly personal I invite you to look upon the changing world with curiosity and awe.  It's probably going to happen.  No matter what.  Anyway.

Cheers,

Casey
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: mikenash on August 11, 2019, 07:10:50 PM
Adult thought all around, Veggie and Casey, yes
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: LowGear on August 16, 2019, 07:05:07 PM
Here's another interesting YouTube article.  Okay, this father and son team are way prejudice says the Elon Fanboy but Jack Richard is an accomplished gear head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfILTM_xcOE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfILTM_xcOE)

Maybe some hyperbola thrown in for good measure.

Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: mikenash on August 16, 2019, 09:45:23 PM
Fascinating. "Follow the money", as they say . . .
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BruceM on August 16, 2019, 11:59:47 PM
The EV Werks guy is an interesting character, and is no slouch on EV tech and cars, having been at it for ages in his own business.