Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: dkmc on June 20, 2019, 10:22:41 PM

Title: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on June 20, 2019, 10:22:41 PM
Just wanted to express my enthusiasm as a soon-to-be owner of a Ashwamegh 6/1 and a Metro 12/2.
I've been mostly a lurker here for probably 12-14 years and never thought I'd be able to actually own a Listeroid, so very excited about
this. The 6/1 has never been run, and the 12/2 has less than 2 hours of no-load run time.
Totally new to these engines, and will have questions for the forum. Any and all advice eagerly accepted.


Thanks
Dan
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: BruceM on June 21, 2019, 02:01:51 AM
Consider them kits, tear them down and go through everything per 38AC's article and you'll be rewarded with a reliable, long lived, smooth and great sounding slow speed engine. 

Don't get caught in fantasy land and assume you got lucky on the Rajkot roulette. 

Also, welcome, and enjoy the rebuilding process! 
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on June 21, 2019, 04:00:30 AM

Thanks Bruce.
Yes, I know there's work to be done before they run. In a way, it will be a fun learning experience to see 'what makes 'em tick'.
And of course, see how big a pile of casting sand I'll have when they're cleaned out..... ;)
Looking forward to experiencing all that I've been reading about all these years.
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 21, 2019, 06:19:34 AM
Well done Dkmc, welcome to the learning curve. Please post some pictures of the work you are doing and what you find. What are you going to couple them to and how?

Please post any questions you have, Bruce is absolutely right about the fantastic information posted by 38ac on the wall of knowledge.

Best of luck and try not to put your back out moving the heavy pieces.

Bob
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on June 21, 2019, 02:22:36 PM
Thanks Bob,

Both engines are on frames with ST heads mounted. And both heads are of course, single phase.
I'd like to have 3 phase, but they don't seem to be available or at least not popular.
I've found 38ac's post again, and now I will re-read it with greater attention as it applies directly now.
Luckily, I have a forklift to help with the lifting..... ;)

One question I have, is, is there any sort of printed 'general' manual available for these engines?
I don't know if the Indian makers provide manuals or not?  Something with dimension and torque specs perhaps?
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: LowGear on June 21, 2019, 04:57:43 PM
I can almost feel your excitement.

I'm curious to what you're going to apply all of this power?
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on June 21, 2019, 06:16:27 PM

Hobby mostly, and partial backup for my machine shop.
Which is why I'm interested in a 3ph head.
And frankly, to 'get it out of my system'.  ;)
Perhaps some experimentation and modifications, just for fun.
I'm a lifelong fan of Diesels of all sorts, and at this point, I've never even seen a Listeroid in person.
Hoping that changes soon.
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 21, 2019, 11:18:43 PM
Someone posted this before, hope it helps

Bob
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: BruceM on June 21, 2019, 11:52:45 PM
Thanks for posting this, Bob.  My neighbor lost his copy.  There's lots of useful info like valve and IP timing, parts breakdown, etc.
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on June 22, 2019, 04:11:08 AM
Bob, thank you very much for posting that manual.

Yes, glort, the power here is pretty reliable as well in Upstate New York.
Some years ago I thought about a Listeroid to ease the demand charges by using it to run some steady loads such as the air compressor and lighting. Then I realized it's not the cost of the actual power that makes the electric bill outrageous, it's all the add-on charges before even one kilowatt is consumed.  So much for beating the power company. But what the heck, I want a Listeroid anyway, for fun.
I'm off on a 6 hour tour tomorrow to retrieve the 6/1.....wish me luck....

Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: BruceM on June 22, 2019, 06:16:14 AM
Good luck on your transport trip! 
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on June 22, 2019, 07:58:37 AM
Thank you Sir
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 22, 2019, 09:10:59 AM
Hi Dkmc, have a safe trip, looking forward to some photos of what you have got. Drive safely, it is always better to be late in this world than early in the next one, don`t forget what a valuable cargo you have.

Glad the manual was useful, can`t remember where I got it from but it was one of the kind guys on the LEF.

Bob
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on June 24, 2019, 01:44:53 AM

Things went well, and it was a long day.

So I approach the shed, and the engine. First time ever seeing a Listeroid in person!  I'm pumped.
And I'm dropping my jaw.......exactly when did these things get 25% LARGER than they look on the internetz??
This thing is freakin massive!

Based on my theory that no cop ever wrote a ticket for 'too many tie-downs on a load', I wove a web of strapping over and around the engine. It was locked down solid. Straps inside the tow vehicle are a lot less effective than if they are in use on the load.

Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: BruceM on June 24, 2019, 05:44:50 AM
You'll be glad those are the "lightweight" flywheels when you pull them!

Congrats on your new baby!

Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: mike90045 on June 24, 2019, 07:12:14 AM
Be very careful if you lift by crankshaft or flywheels, the engine is top heavy and can try to rotate.  Maybe not so much with a ST-generator on the frame.
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 24, 2019, 10:37:16 AM
Glad you got one safely, looking forward to seeing what you find when you strip it. When are you picking up the 12/2?

Do you have a manual for the ST head? I think I have one somewhere.

Bob
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: veggie on June 24, 2019, 02:27:49 PM

Looks like the unit is in good shape.
Congratulations.

CAVEAT:
Listeroids have soft crankshafts.
Do not lift by the flywheels.
Lifting straps should be looped around the bearing housings where the crankshaft exits the block.
People who say they lifted by the flywheels with no issues were just lucky.

Veggie
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on June 24, 2019, 02:33:39 PM
Thanks guys!
There is a lift ring that screws onto one head stud. Is it OK to lift just the engine by that method?
I have a forklift that's easily capable of lifting the entire skid, but not so easy to get to it on the trailer right now.

Bob, no manual for the ST head, would love to have one.
The 12/2 trip is scheduled for this coming weekend.

veggie, Yes, it's new, never been run, no oil in the sump.
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: BruceM on June 24, 2019, 03:19:28 PM
I wouldn't lift the heavy steel base and generator with one head bolt myself, only the engine.


Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on June 24, 2019, 04:03:18 PM
I wouldn't lift the heavy steel base and generator with one head bolt myself, only the engine.

Yes, that's what I was thinking.
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: BruceM on June 24, 2019, 06:12:18 PM
Be careful when setting the engine down.  If it hits hard with the flywheels on, you CAN get some permanent distortion of the crankshaft, adding slightly to run-out.  It's a chore to straighten, so set her down gently.  I had this happen due to freight carrier, with engine on a pallet!
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on June 24, 2019, 06:34:28 PM
Be careful when setting the engine down.  If it hits hard with the flywheels on, you CAN get some permanent distortion of the crankshaft, adding slightly to run-out.  It's a chore to straighten, so set her down gently.  I had this happen due to freight carrier, with engine on a pallet!

Bruce,
You're reminding me of a small Sattley hit & miss engine who's crankshaft I straightened this spring for a friend.
That crank was soft as a tootsie roll.
You've also got me wanting to stick an indicator on the wheels now and check runout. There were some rough roads down in Pa.
On the way down empty we traveled Rt 81 and 84, they are just unbelievably rough with 6-8" deep pot holes in places. Lucky to have missed all of them, not sure how I made that happen. I came back on 6 an 171, 2 lane, slow speeds, a bit smoother traveling.
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: BruceM on June 24, 2019, 06:40:38 PM
Checking runout is always a good idea, but potholes on rubber tires won't be a problem, it would take serious abuse; a hard hit. If you go to straighten the crank, you'll see that it's NOT that soft.
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on June 24, 2019, 06:45:21 PM
Lots of good info and practice here, really appreciate the info!
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: 38ac on June 24, 2019, 11:47:40 PM
I lift them by chokeing a. 1 1/2" strap around the head. Go behind the pushrods so they don't get bent and choke it between the intake and exhaust ports.  Pics later
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: 2Ton46 on June 29, 2019, 03:21:40 AM
It's always exciting to get one home! Do go through it, it's probably got enough sand inside to build a small castle - and not the kind you get to live in. In no time you'll be enjoying it. My twin is very popular even with people who don't even know what an engine is mainly due to the random stuff I have it powering. Everyone comments on how it chugs along but isn't interrupting their conversation like almost anything "modern" does.
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on June 30, 2019, 04:48:06 PM
Well, the 7 hour trip to Maine to get the 12/2 Metro was a success.  What was looking like a sketchy adventure to line up a roll back truck to pick it up, then transfer to the rented flatbed, changed into a piece-of-cake when I went to pick up the rental and discovered it had a 3300lb lift gate. I had no idea they even offered them, and found it odd the salesman never suggested it when I told him the purpose of the trip. No matter.......it all worked out just fine.


Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: BruceM on June 30, 2019, 04:52:27 PM
Very nice steel base.  Congrats on the safe and successful trip!
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on June 30, 2019, 04:59:55 PM

Thank you Bruce!
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on July 08, 2019, 09:26:21 PM
So, Camshaft removal......
Grind off the mushed end of the pin thru the collar?
Replace with a split shaft collar? Will that hold sufficiently?

Also, what do folks use to remove the Cylinder-Head studs?
I'm not liking my first thoughts of a small pipe wrench, don't want to mark them up.
Double nut the tops?

It was more work THINKING about getting this 6/1 torn down that actually doing it. Sorta reminds me of taking apart an over
grown Briggs & Stratton, except the parts are a lot bigger. No crazy surprises in the tear down, and keeping a tally on sand found.
Most of the nuts on studs were not very tight at all, save the head stud nuts. Too loose really.
Having fun........so far (I think).
 :)
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: 38ac on July 09, 2019, 12:27:59 AM
 That pin is tapered, a close inspection should reveal the snaller end which of course is the end you tap on to remove it. The large end is usually the one beat up from being bludgeoned when it was installed.  The cylinder studs are not normally very tight. I use a pipe wrench with well worn jaws to remove them but double nuts should work also. 
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: BruceM on July 09, 2019, 01:29:36 AM
Bravo, Dkmc.  It's the simplest diesel imaginable, and easy to tear down.   Best to have a helper for pulling the cylinder just for weight and control. 

38ac's article covers all the details quite marvelously.  Best guide ever for the CS Clones and Listeroids.  His short video clip on idler gear install for proper gear position is a must see.

Maintenance is a snap after this rebuild process; you'll know that engine's internals well.
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on July 09, 2019, 02:20:53 AM

Thanks Butch, if I have to I'll modify the jaws on one of the pipe wrenches to prevent 'knurling' the studs.
Yes Bruce, I binge read Butch's 12 page thread a couple times since I got the engines. Watched all his Video's several times
as well. It's a fantastic guide that keeps on giving and will for generations........Thank you Butch for all your effort and sharing
of vital info! 
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: broncodriver99 on July 09, 2019, 01:20:36 PM
As mentioned a pipe wrench is easy and most have one around. If you want a specific tool that would minimize damage there are stud pullers. I have several and they are usually in the $20-30 range depending on the stud size range. They do a good job but can leave marks on the studs as well depending on how tight the studs are. I believe the last set of cylinder studs I pulled I used either an 10" pipe wrench or a pair of channel lock pliers. All but one came out easily and the one only required a little persuasion after being together for 60 years.

You can always wrap the stud with cloth or paper towel to help minimize any marring.
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on July 22, 2019, 07:47:58 PM
The studs were not tight at all, and surely not torqued into the block like I would expect.
I've managed to get it completely torn down, and got the crank in the lathe between centers. This one must be a fluke, it's pretty darn straight. Worst indicator reading I can get is .0015 on the one end. It's within .001 on either side of the throw.

I made up a Gib Key puller. It's pretty stout, but I found the material in the drop pile.  The keys didn't put up much of a fight.
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: BruceM on July 22, 2019, 09:59:44 PM
Nice gib key puller!  Looking forward to seeing more of your progress!
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: 38ac on July 22, 2019, 11:31:10 PM
The India crankshafts are either real good and straight or real bad, thankfully mostly good. I suspect the bad ones are bent during the handling of the engine after assembly as it would be a trick to get one that crooked between centers on the grinder.
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on July 25, 2019, 03:41:35 AM

A few more progress pictures from yesterday.....

The parts pile......

And, excited to see I was NOT cheated out of a generous helping of crank case sand!
 ::)
It only took about 20 minutes with the needle scaler to harvest this amount.
Yeesh





Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: BruceM on July 25, 2019, 05:28:06 AM
Good progress.  A monster carbide burr owned by a friend was very effective for smoothing; it cut the cast iron flash and smoothed sharp corners like they were basswood.

Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: mikenash on July 25, 2019, 07:59:04 AM
Look at that pile of bloody sand.  That's a lesson for the rest of us.  Sheesh
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on July 25, 2019, 10:23:15 PM
Good progress.  A monster carbide burr owned by a friend was very effective for smoothing; it cut the cast iron flash and smoothed sharp corners like they were basswood.

That's very interesting. You wouldn't happen to have a pic, or name of the mfgr that made that Burr would you Bruce?

Glort, your Listeroid shop manager impersonation is pretty far out!   ;D
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: BruceM on July 25, 2019, 11:11:14 PM
Alas, I didn't own the big carbide burr.  It was 1.5"  OD, about 2" long, tapered to a round 1/4" radius nose.  Expensive but the perfect too for cast iron cleanup and finishing.  Stones were very slow going.
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on July 31, 2019, 01:19:44 AM

Well, aside from the sand, here's another good reason to do a complete dis-assemble.
In the picture, is the piston as it came out of the cylinder. Ring gaps nearly lined up...

I've checked the crank pin and rod big end. Clearance varies between .002 and .004 depending where I measure the big end inserts across and around the bore, using a Dial Bore Gauge. Small end measures .002 total clearance with the pin. I've got the block de-burred, all threaded holes chamfered, some bits of flash removed. Now to pressure wash and coat with sealer.

Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on July 31, 2019, 10:05:24 PM

OK, so the block is clean. Pressure washed and scrubbed. Out in the sun drying at 80+ Degrees.
I'm about ready to apply genuine GE Glyptal to the inside.
Then I watched this video......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77CKFnRHA3c

This guy says you HAVE to bake the Glyptal after applying it. If you don't, it will fail, and can flake or peel off.
Anybody here familiar with this requirement? Do you guys bake your blocks after applying this stuff??
I'm trying to figure out how I'd find something large enough to put it in, let alone the 12/2 block....
I guess I gotta stop and think about this a bit.
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: BruceM on July 31, 2019, 10:41:13 PM
We used the cheap spray generic  electrical varnish for my neighbor's 8/1 crankcase.  It is still in perfect condition. 
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on July 31, 2019, 10:51:16 PM
We used the cheap spray generic  electrical varnish for my neighbor's 8/1 crankcase.  It is still in perfect condition.

Did you bake it after application?
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on August 01, 2019, 01:54:41 AM
They say 250F for 2 hours.
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: BruceM on August 01, 2019, 03:17:55 AM
Baking of glyptol is used for motor windings, but I've never heard of baking it as an engine coating. No, we didn't bake, just sprayed and let it dry. 

I'm not sure I buy the baking story.
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: mike90045 on August 01, 2019, 04:05:54 AM
They say 250F for 2 hours.

Back seat of a car with the windows up !!
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on August 01, 2019, 04:23:33 AM
They say 250F for 2 hours.

Back seat of a car with the windows up !!

Probably around 130f max
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on August 01, 2019, 02:35:47 PM
Be nice to live somewhere a car interior never gets about 130F. Here it can easily get closer to 130C!

Yes, I feel lucky
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on August 04, 2019, 06:00:19 AM
I ended up getting a spray can of "Glyptal like" insulating paint, Neversieze brand. Much easier than brushing it on.
Set it out in the sun 2 days to dry, it's hardened up nicely and looking good.

Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: BruceM on August 04, 2019, 06:05:01 AM
I think it was 38AC that suggested the generic spray electrical varnish to me.  A very helpful tip, saved me a bunch of time and money. 

Nice looking crankcase, bet you burned some grinding stones on that!

Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on August 04, 2019, 11:16:56 PM
I think it was 38AC that suggested the generic spray electrical varnish to me.  A very helpful tip, saved me a bunch of time and money. 

Nice looking crankcase, bet you burned some grinding stones on that!

Yes, you mentioned it Bruce, and I think I read it in 38's build thread. Spraying was much easier and quicker than brushing.
Honestly, I spent about 15 minutes de-flashing the breather opening, and just a bit on the large opening. Most all of what you see in
the pic hasn't been touched with a grinder. And, yes, it did cut like butter with a Carbide burr, which is a little discerning, as it seems like real soft iron. I suppose there's not much nickle in it.
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: 38ac on August 06, 2019, 02:00:35 AM
 I brushed one,.. That spray you used looks identical to what I use from W.W. Grainger.
Did you check the rod bearing with the shim stalled or no? The machining in the rod is usually pretty good with errors being with the inserts.  When,the inserts are too thick India adds shims which then yield egg shaped. I.D. when assembled.
Title: Re: Excited soon-to-be caretaker.....
Post by: dkmc on August 06, 2019, 02:20:19 AM
There was no shim in the rod. I checked the ID with it torqued up to 55ft lbs, (inserts installed of course). I got variations around the bore but not too bad really.....considering from whence it came. Would I run a Rat motor at 7500 for extended periods under full load with numbers like these? Hell NO. But 500-800RPM and 6-7HP? I think there's some lee-way there for sure.