Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Original Lister Cs Engines => Topic started by: mikenash on June 15, 2019, 03:44:37 AM

Title: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: mikenash on June 15, 2019, 03:44:37 AM
Hi Guys

Some of you have given me a hand with advice on the + 40 thou piston and barrel I have been tinkering with; and that has been much appreciated

When I took the engine apart I dumped the head, injector, pump and a few other bits and pieces in a big bucket of diesel for a couple of weeks

This morning I made an abominable mess in the workshop giving them a clean and dismantling the head etc

See pics?

Getting the valves out was a mission as the head had sat in the weather long enough for the springs to be substantially rusted - I would say the guides would need replacing, too

I can buy a whole new Indian 7-stud head complete from Australia for about $NZ250 and probably a hundred or two dollars in freight - maybe somewhere in the $NZ350-550 range landed . . .

I wonder if it's worth mucking about with this head - or if it's better to just put it "on the shelf" for an occasion when I have more time - whenever that might be

My objective is to have one good engine I know to have sound internals plus a bunch of good spares - and I think that (with a bit of machine-shop repairs to the top ring groove) the +40 thou Barrel & piston out of this engine will have a good service life ahead of them

I'd be interested in thoughts as I don't have the experience to interpret the images in terms of "how worn things are"

Cheers

(similar query underway re pump & injector - bear with me here)

Thanks, Mike
Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: sirpedrosa on June 15, 2019, 09:11:51 AM
Hi Mike

Both the head, valves, pump and injector seem to me to be in good internal condition, of course a good cleaning helps to realize if there are too large clearances. On the outside they have the rust of the time they stay seated.

That alu piston with spoked wheels, and the tricky ring maybe will give you a bitter mouth...

Remove that scale, and disassemble all bits, especially the injector pump, and checks if the element is correct for 6/1 (because of the flow rate), and the injector has to be tuned to the correct pressure.

Good luck.
VP
Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: dieselspanner on June 15, 2019, 09:12:57 AM
Same as the other post, for the injector!

If you are importing parts from Aus, why not go straight to Rajkot? I've found that I can place an order with Devprecision on a Sunday night, have it confirmed Monday morning, pay with Paypal - nicely protected - and the Fedex truck rolls down the drive, Friday lunchtime, prices are reasonable, compared to the uk, even taking postage into account.

I had a problem with an injector pump and after a bit of a moan on here, followed by me sending a link it was all sorted free of charge, no I don't have any other connections with the Sub Continent!!

When I built my 'bitza' I had terrible trouble with balancing, eventually I came to the conclusion that as it was a 3/1 bottom end, with the larger barrel and piston, the flywheels were weighted differently. I had an alloy 8/1 piston and rings sent out from Devprecision, it was a near perfect fit, and the engine is now as smooth as, at 650 rpm. Just a word to the wise for when you are putting the big pile of bits back together......

Cheers
Stef

Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: mikenash on June 15, 2019, 09:38:22 AM
Same as the other post, for the injector!

If you are importing parts from Aus, why not go straight to Rajkot? I've found that I can place an order with Devprecision on a Sunday night, have it confirmed Monday morning, pay with Paypal - nicely protected - and the Fedex truck rolls down the drive, Friday lunchtime, prices are reasonable, compared to the uk, even taking postage into account.

I had a problem with an injector pump and after a bit of a moan on here, followed by me sending a link it was all sorted free of charge, no I don't have any other connections with the Sub Continent!!

When I built my 'bitza' I had terrible trouble with balancing, eventually I came to the conclusion that as it was a 3/1 bottom end, with the larger barrel and piston, the flywheels were weighted differently. I had an alloy 8/1 piston and rings sent out from Devprecision, it was a near perfect fit, and the engine is now as smooth as, at 650 rpm. Just a word to the wise for when you are putting the big pile of bits back together......

Cheers
Stef

Stef, Hi & thanks

I wondered myself about balance & related issues - eventually I came to the conclusion it had probably been running like that for a decade . . .

That cylinder & what is effectively an 8/1 piston, I guess, might end up on another 6/1 I have been playing with and have yet to tear down to have a look at rings etc - I guess we'll see what happens

I take your point about going direct to Rajkot.  FWIW I quite like to support Rob at OldTimerEngines in a small way as he provides a service with stock and with advice etc.  I doubt he's getting rich doing what he does
Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 15, 2019, 11:47:21 AM
Hi Mike, sorry not to have been much involved on the forum recently, personal family issues. That cylinder head should be OK. The first thing to check is how far below the surface of the head the valves sit, 50 thou is good 100 thou is bad.

Replacing valve guides is not that expensive or difficult, if I remember rightly the inlet guide is a press fit and can be easily pressed out and replaced, while the exhaust valve has a thread on it and needs to be unscrewed, they are made of a very soft iron so they break easily leaving you with half the thread and guide left in the head. Fortunately they are made of such soft stuff that they can easily be cut with a junior hacksaw blade. Make three cuts in the guide and then fold it in on itself with a drift.

If the valve faces were closer to 50 thou below the surface of the head they can be re-cut without a problem, if they are approaching 100 thou the seats will need replacing. 38ac did a very good post about replacing/resurfacing valve seats on the WOK.

In my limited experience, the quality of castings and machining on the original Lister heads and parts is superior to the offerings from Rajkot. I recently purchased a replacement Indian cylinder head because it was the cheapest option, sadly it did not have hardened valve seats. The cost of having it machined to original specifications and having hardened seats fitted cost a lot more than repairing the original. Lesson learned.

Bob

Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: mikenash on June 15, 2019, 03:54:47 PM
Hi Mike, sorry not to have been much involved on the forum recently, personal family issues. That cylinder head should be OK. The first thing to check is how far below the surface of the head the valves sit, 50 thou is good 100 thou is bad.

Replacing valve guides is not that expensive or difficult, if I remember rightly the inlet guide is a press fit and can be easily pressed out and replaced, while the exhaust valve has a thread on it and needs to be unscrewed, they are made of a very soft iron so they break easily leaving you with half the thread and guide left in the head. Fortunately they are made of such soft stuff that they can easily be cut with a junior hacksaw blade. Make three cuts in the guide and then fold it in on itself with a drift.

If the valve faces were closer to 50 thou below the surface of the head they can be re-cut without a problem, if they are approaching 100 thou the seats will need replacing. 38ac did a very good post about replacing/resurfacing valve seats on the WOK.

In my limited experience, the quality of castings and machining on the original Lister heads and parts is superior to the offerings from Rajkot. I recently purchased a replacement Indian cylinder head because it was the cheapest option, sadly it did not have hardened valve seats. The cost of having it machined to original specifications and having hardened seats fitted cost a lot more than repairing the original. Lesson learned.

Bob

Hey Bob, thanks for the reply

I hope you are coping with health & family stuff OK

That's exactly the perspective I needed to hear, thanks

Looking at the spec of the Rajkot head it doesn't mention valve seat inserts which it surely would if they were present

I will pop the valves back in that head, have a measure to establish their depth and see what needs doing.  Y'know, I don't know that I have an imperial set of feeler gauges any longer - but I do have a calculator lol

Thanks for the advice

Yes, I sat up last night and read the wonderful 38AC thread on the head and all the other bits.  What Kiwis would call a "Taonga" - a treasure

Cheers
Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: BruceM on June 15, 2019, 05:23:37 PM
I was waiting for more experienced members to comment first, but I'd also like to say, wow, the head and valves and valve seats look good to me.  Regarding valve guides- I'd check the fit to see if they are sloppy and worn; the engine was clearly rebuilt, and may not have many hours on those valves/guides.

I must also report that even with my limited experience, I've so far seen two Rajkot produced heads that had casting defects.  I wouldn't rush to use them if you have an original that can be brought up to snuff, even if it cost more to do so.

Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: dieselspanner on June 16, 2019, 07:55:59 AM
You don't need a calculator, Mike, just remember 40 thou is near enough a millimetre and do the rest in your head, that'll be close enough for a Lister on a sheep station......

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: mikenash on June 16, 2019, 08:28:39 AM
You don't need a calculator, Mike, just remember 40 thou is near enough a millimetre and do the rest in your head, that'll be close enough for a Lister on a sheep station......

Cheers
Stef

Lol Stef, I'll just count on my fingers.  I was joking about imperial/inch stuff.  I live in a metric country but the bread and butter of my industry is working on big irrigation equipment made in Nebraska and Oklahoma - so I have gotten adept at translating inch dimensions into millimetres.  In fact I'm old enough to have grown up with imperial and then truned to metric in the '70s and now having to re-learn inch stuff in the 00s.  Cheers
Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: mikenash on June 16, 2019, 08:34:03 AM
I was waiting for more experienced members to comment first, but I'd also like to say, wow, the head and valves and valve seats look good to me.  Regarding valve guides- I'd check the fit to see if they are sloppy and worn; the engine was clearly rebuilt, and may not have many hours on those valves/guides.

I must also report that even with my limited experience, I've so far seen two Rajkot produced heads that had casting defects.  I wouldn't rush to use them if you have an original that can be brought up to snuff, even if it cost more to do so.

Thanks, Bruce.  Good advice & appreciated

I'll have a play with it all

Cheers
Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: dieselspanner on June 16, 2019, 09:48:22 AM
Same as that, Mike!

I can do miles, furlongs, chains, yards, feet and inches, Kilometres and meters, centimetres and millimetres, Short, long tons and metric tonnes, gallons US and imperial but my Land Rover has to do miles per gallon, litres to the hundred kilometres I just can't envisage, go figure......

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 16, 2019, 11:39:11 AM
Hi Stef, I`m in the same boat, miles per gallon works for me but having emigrated to Australia it`s all liters per 100 kilometers, might as well be furlongs per half hundredweight.

Bob
Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: 38ac on June 16, 2019, 10:35:28 PM
I don't see any major issues with the head. I'd repair it but I don't have to send it out to get that done.
Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: mikenash on June 17, 2019, 07:19:25 AM
Orright then - on the basis that "40 thou is near enough to a mil' . . .

That head's pretty rough, but these aren't precision machines . . .

I have a spacer coming that I hope will prove to be suitable for use in machining the top ring groove of the alloy +40 thou piston

If that ring-groove-repair turns out to be a runner, then it's worth putting the engine back together - even with just a hand-controlled diesel pump - to see what's what if we can get it to run, I think

Basically, I'd like to know if that piston and cylinder are good enough to put in a machine which I'd like to see as "good enough to do a job of work"

The guides are a bit rattly, but, with a bit of oil here and there - who knows if they'll leak or not?  They're pretty long guides

Working on "40 thou to a mil" the valves are 72 and 64 thou below the surface of the head, once I have given them a grind.  I guess "worn but not totally buggered" might cover it

I had a quick scratch around the edges of the head with an old flat file - it looks good.  I'll do something ugly with a big flat file and some emery and it'll come up OK enough to bolt down

I'll be interested to see what happens

I'm off up to my Bay of Plenty property this weekend.  I just bought a car for my daughter - my second-favourite car in the whole world, the trusty mid-2000s 1800 Corolla with the 4-spd auto; second only to the 2,2 litre Camry in the "Tough, Cheap & Reliable" stakes - and I'm delivering that.  While I'm there, if there's time, I'll rob the pump, line & injector off the motor there and bring them back here to see if we can kick this one into life

The pump off this one's a (possibly sad) story for another day . . .

Let's call it a plan, eh?

Thanks for al the advice
Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 17, 2019, 09:37:55 AM
Hi Mike, the numbers you posted suggest that the valves are in the sweet spot between new and worn out. A little valve lapping paste and they should be fine. If the guides are a little worn, I wouldn`t worry about it too much you are rebuilding a Lister not a Ferrari, as long as you can achieve sufficient compression for the fuel to light off she will probably outlive us all. If it burns a little oil and smokes a bit who cares, just keep it away from the washing line, soot smuts on the missus laundry is a conversation you don`t want to be having!  :laugh:

In the past I purchased a second hand injector pump from Rob at Old Timer Engines, I think it cost me $50 Australian, It was perfectly serviceable, he has a lot of used parts available.

I have no idea of the age of your Daughter, please instill in her the importance of careful driving. A 17 year old girl died in a road traffic accident here last week, my best mate was the first responder, not an experience he wants to repeat.

Bob
Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: mikenash on June 17, 2019, 10:16:36 AM
G'day Bob

Good thoughts re both CS and daughter, thanks

She's not actually my daughter - she's the daughter of a friend and part of a family who are long-standing friends of my family.  This girl's sister and my daughter did kid stuff together as kids & teenagers for a decade or so.  Anyway, it's a long & complex story and the details probably don't matter

The good news is she's 34 and an extra careful driver - being the mother of four kids.  She has had a hard time in recent years and her father - who used to be a good mate of mine "back in the day" - is an asshole who won't step up to support his kids in tough times

What's with that?  See pic?  Those are her two lads.  What sort of dickhead won't put his hand in his (wealthy, professional) pocket to help his own grandsons?

Short story is she has no money, four lovely kids & no bloke around, a broken shitter of a car, effectively no father, and her mum - who would help if she could - is as broke as she is.  So I scratched together a few thousand $$ and bought her a Corolla cos they're a good bet if you don't have much of an income.  I have the Toyota guys giving it a proper service this week, it's got a new 1-year WoF and a year's rego, so with a bit of luck all it'll cost her in the next 12 months is petrol

TBH it gives me the shits that people will judge, but they won't help . . .

Anyway, rant aside, I've never seen her be anything but careful behind the wheel

I hope the Corolla turns out good, reliable and tough like they usually are - she could use a break

My own kids are 44, 41, and 33 - they're all pretty good behind the wheel.  It's their Mum who's the liability lol

Back to the Lister.  yes, I'll grab pump & injector if I have time this weekend and, if that piston comes up OK, I'll have a play

Got plenty of acres to play in with the wind well away from the clothesline, so we're sweet on the domestic front, cheers
Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 17, 2019, 11:40:07 AM
Hi Mike, I knew you were a good man, I didn`t know quite how good a man, good on you for looking after those less fortunate than yourself.

I understand all of the problems associated with family breakups, having been through it myself. I think that the biggest problem is our legal system, both sides are encouraged to lawyer up. This makes lawyers and barristers wealthy, while their clients get a lot poorer and end up hating each other because of it. I lost contact with my daughter for ten years because of this system, she will be getting married next week and while I will not be able to attend the ceremony due to my health issues, I was delighted to be invited and to catch up with her and how her life is unfolding.

Two good looking, healthy young fellas there, hope you are going to teach them some of what you have learned so they can be happy, healthy and productive adults who follow their dreams while maintaining an acceptable moral compass.

Very sad that the wealthy are so miserly with their money. My Brother is one of the directors of an international bank, he earns millions of pounds a year while trying to avoid his social responsibilities. His favorite saying is that no good turn goes unpunished! It`s just an excuse for being a greedy, selfish c*nt. I suspect that he could learn a lot from someone like you.

Looking forward to hearing how the Lister goes once you have it all reassembled.

Bob

Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: BruceM on June 17, 2019, 04:31:01 PM
Corollas and Camry, about the most reliable of cars in my book too.
Kudos for helping.  We need a whole lot more of you in this world. 

Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: mikenash on June 17, 2019, 05:05:46 PM
Sorry guys, that was a bit of a bloody rant - got away on me there.  I think it's dealing with rich pricks and the social outcomes of the system which has allowed them to become rich . . .  never mind

Thanks for your kind words.  Cheers
Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 18, 2019, 11:42:21 AM
Hi Mike, maybe you and Glort should arrange a rant-a-thon for the entertainment of the rest of us, I might even join in myself.
possible subjects could be: the law, government greed/ineptitude/stupidity/profligacy, health and safety, global warming/climate change, electric vehicles, gender diversity, tax on alcohol, prohibition of marijuana and related products and most of all the price of cheese which is shocking!  :laugh:

I read an article today about a British carpenter and joiner who has been banned from sweeping the floor in his workshop. The health and safety Nazis have decided that this kicks up dust that he could inhale. He has been instructed to buy a very expensive vacuum cleaner to do the job. He has been sweeping the floors in his shop for the last 30 years without incident and now the government believe he is a danger to himself! I wonder how long the filters in his new all singing vacuum cleaner will last before they start pumping the hazardous dust back into the air for him to breath?

Looking forward to the Rant-a-thon

Bob
Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: mikenash on June 19, 2019, 09:33:51 PM
Okey-dokey.  The piston

There's nothing like practical experience when it comes to someone like me getting advice from you guys - I don't know shit about all the Black Art stuff around pistons & rings & leak paths & clearances . . .  you never know what ugly shit I might do if left to my own devices

Hey Butch - your thoughts & advice, cheers:  " . . . the piston is the alumininum 8/1 type as can be seen via the ring arraingment which differs from the cast iron piston ring package. Could be the picture but it looks to have the typical top ring groove wear that must be corrected to have compression restored to spec. If all is well otherwise you can widen the groove to accept a spacer.  Yes Lister did indeed rechrome the bores after reboring oversize. They also attached a nice tag. My 10/2 is 40 over and is re tagged to state so.

And -  "Yes, the scraper ring part of a 3 piece oil ring is a perfect spacer. The wear in the land is down thus typically a very light cut is taken on the top, just enough to true it, then widen the groove as needed by removing material from the bottom"

And as quoted previously from a very helpful chap, Chris Bowden, the piston specialist - "I think it might be your lucky day.  I have one only ring groove insert WS232 (as shown on my website).  You can have this for $9.80 plus freight $6.00 = $15.80.  And by the way, the insert should NOT be fitted to the bottom of a compression groove.  It should be fitted to the top of the groove.  You will then have your machined lower face for the compression ring to seal on plus the ring is kept lower and away from any ridge that might be present . . . "

I thought I would add a couple of images here:

The spacer shown has an application range as per its label of 114.25 - 115.24 - perfect for standard to +40 thou CS pistons (and other 4&1/2" stuff I guess) - so I just thought I'd show the image ans mention the part number - WS232 - attached.  Cost me $15 including courier

Also shown is the fitting blurb & some of the theory behind it - probably not news to some of you gents, but thought-provoking for me

Thirdly is another potential solution - these are the scraper-ring parts of an oil-control ring off of a +20 thou 466/500 Bedford diesel engine.  They used to be common as hell anywhere there is a British cultural legacy.  4.5625" as a standard bore.  I emailed the Bedford man here, he replied, dug out some rings, sent them to me, and didn't even charge me for them.  Just $10 for the freight

Interesting stuff how folks will give you a hand

Next stop - a conversation with the machinist.  Piston in one hand, spacer in the other, I guess

Cheers
Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: BruceM on June 19, 2019, 09:56:03 PM
Seems you're making good progress, Mike.  Bravo.

Title: Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
Post by: veggie on June 22, 2019, 05:57:50 PM
+1 for Lapping.
Those components look good.
Give the valves a nice lapping before reassembly to ensure a good face-to-seat match and a fresh sealing surface.
Should be good for many more hours.

Veggie