Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: tyssniffen on May 25, 2019, 06:05:57 PM
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Since I've got this thing all the way down, I should put in new gaskets, yes? The originals don't look... horrible, and I don't believe I was having gasket trouble, but...
If I should, should I do both - the 1 between the body and the cylinder and the 1 between the cylinder and the head?
Are they just the same? That is, can I just get 2 of the same and drop them on?
How do you clean up the surface without dirt falling into the body?
And, where's the best place to buy them from for the USA?
Tys
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Gary at DES or Central Maine Diesel should have them. There is also justliveoffgrid.com up in Canada.
I picked up a couple of these and will give them a try when I get that far. I bought the first ones. Not sure what the difference is. They are for the original 7 stud head but I would think they would work on an Indian head as well.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lister-CS-Pattern-Head-Gasket-6-1-8-1-etc/231863898362?hash=item35fc2a50fa:g:qa8AAOxyHIlTXnNR
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lister-CS-Diesel-Engine-5-1-6-1-8-1-Composite-Head-Gasket-10-6544/152373669329?hash=item237a2dadd1:g:b2kAAOSwlINcUSOv
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The eBay product sold by Gasketnation is a good quality item. They have been in biz for a long time, and can make gaskets for just about anything if either they or you have a pattern. I did ask them if the gasket for 7 stud engines would work on the 5 stud listeroids. They did not recommend it at that time. I have used these on my Dursley without fail. Mixed results on my 5 stud listeroid, currently using a cheap-o Indian head gasket soaked in silicone sealer. to keep it from weeping coolant through the cardboard like layer sandwiched between the copper.
The gasket(s) under the cylinder are for setting bump clearance. They can be paper or aluminium or a combination of both to get the right clearance. Normal practice is to install several, measure bump clearance, then tear out sufficient number and thickness of the base gaskets to give correct bump. The base gaskets and the head gaskets are completely different animals.
Cheers
Hugh
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If this is a Listeroid, with a cylinder liner, I highly recommend measuring the protrusion relative to the head surface. This has a big effect on which gaskets work and don't. If you have more than say 0.003", your best bet is the Rajkot gaskets, with the asbestos soaked in Permatex gasket sealer to eliminate coolant weeping.
If you have more than 3 mils of protrusion, you should get it fixed by a competent machinist. Take the whole assembly. I did mine by the file and sanding disk method, which is not for the average joe. Excessive protrusion will lead to head casting concavity/warping and head gasket leakage.
The Lister clones that Gary at DES imports don't have liners and have no protrusion issues as the Listeroids usually do.
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+1 re Bruce's comments on liner protrusion. Had to reduce mine, used a file, very carefully.
Cheers
Hugh
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It is a listeriod, and does have that protrusion. I think I will leave the bottom gaskets as they were when I removed it, hoping the spacing is still correct.
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Quit hoping, check your squish, measure your protrusion.
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As BruceM stated, if it has more than 0.30" protrusion you may have trouble down the road.
The gasket fire ring may seal the combustion but the extra material leaves the gasket uncompressed around the water passages. Mine was protruding by 0.060". Compression was great but it leaked water.
What a major pain in the butt. >:(
After building thousands, I don't know how those builders in Rajkot keep getting this wrong.
I had my liner pressed out and machined. Now has about 0.050" protrusion.Whether you Draw File it, or get it machined, it should be addressed. (Each time you draw the file across the surface, thank the quality control guy at the Rajkot factory ;D )
If it's a brand new engine, I recommend you remove the bearing cap from the connecting rod and check the condition/clearance.
All 3 Listeroids I checked had issues.
One had a couple of grains of sand. No journal damage but I did have to change the bearing shells.
Two had excessive clearance (like 0.010" instead of 0.0015). It would have knocked and hammered itself to failure eventually. Use Plastigauge to measure. It's not expensive.
good luck
Veggie
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+1 for Veggie's suggestion on checking the upper bearing shell condition and using plastigauge to check clearance. Rajkot ignores the basics, often.
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Another thing to check if you have excess liner protrusion is the cylinder head surface, if it was pulled down super tight over a tall liner it will not be flat but pulled down on the edges and if not corrected and you reduce the liner height your new leak will be compression into the water jacket instead of water to the outside.. If the surface is bowed more than .005" you need to correct it.
Thank you India😠
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Good point 38ac,
Perhaps the way to look at these engines is that Rajkot supplies us with machines that are roughly 85% ready.
Supplied for the hobbyist to complete. If you have that outlook from the start, it's not too bad.
And they can be made into fairly good engines.
The biggest issue I see for long duration service is the valve and valve seat materials. Are they too soft?
What kind of Valve Seat life are you guys getting from your working engines ?
Bruce? Hugh? Others?
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+1 on head concavity from excessive liner protrusion. Mine was pronounced. I flattened mine the hard way, 40 grit and spray contact cement on a piece of plate glass on foam shelf liner on cast iron surface (my table saw top). It takes a great deal of time and elbow grease, the head provides the downward pressure.
I concur that they just need a complete tear down and going over in detail, ala 38ac's article.
I have noted no wear on the stock valve seats at 2000 hrs a few years ago, missed the 3000hr tear down and decarb this year due to water injection. Normally the knocking when cold tells me when it's time for a decarbon.
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I have noted no wear on the stock valve seats at 2000 hrs a few years ago, missed the 3000hr tear down and decarb this year due to water injection. Normally the knocking when cold tells me when it's time for a decarbon.
That's good to know BruceM, thanks for the feedback.
2000 hrs is a very good benchmark for comparison.
At my rate of use (3 to 4 hrs per day only during winter) that's 4 to 5 years of operation.
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Far as I know Bruce has a more Roid run time experience than anyone on here except maybe Eddie thus he is a great source of good operational information,, and a lot of other tbings too, ;)
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I'm running road diesel now, ran it on biodiesel it's first three years. My engine hours will be much smaller now, as I'm pumping water and doing laundry on inverter/PV power. I still run the Listeroid for the air compressor pump.
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So, thank you everyone for the continued advice.
It might not be clear that this tear down is from from compression loss after 200 perfect run hours or so, almost certainly due to carbon build up. I believe my 'squish' at TDC is already good. I did check it, and while I to improvise, it's close to .025"
Once I got the cylinder on - no head, no bolts - , just turning it over I can hear the body 'breathing' a ton more than before. I think I'm good, and it was stuck ring(s).
I guess the question continues to be: should I *replace* the copper head gasket, or just reuse the one that was there?
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+1 Rapping on the valve is normally effective at dislodging a bit of carbon on the valve seat. Decarbon is normally a 1000 hr. job. I have never had an exhaust valve stick, nearing 3K hrs.
Valve and injection timing will affect carbon build up, as Glort mentioned, if you haven't checked those closely already.
My memory is that the Listeroid bump clearance should be 0.050, but I may be wrong.
You can try to reuse the gasket by spraying it with the copper paint for head gaskets. I'm cheap and have done that successfully.
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If you have a composite, copper faced gasket, it is probably best to replace it. They aren`t very expensive and having done all the hard work involved with your rebuild it would be a shame to have to do it all again because you have had a leaking head gasket.
In the past I have annealed solid copper gaskets and reused them, copper work-hardens over time and warming them up will return them to their original soft condition.
I`m unclear as to whether your engine has radiator cooling or a cooling tank, these engines were never designed for a pressurized cooling system like modern motors and the gaskets will leak unless you take exceptional care. I always use a variety of gasket sealants on every engine I rebuild, regardless of how flat the surfaces appear to be.
Glort is always advocating that you set up a water injection system, this will alleviate the carbon build up problem. I would recommend using rain water rather than tap water depending on how much limescale you have in your local water supply.
Pretty sure that Bruce is right about the bump clearance being around 50 thou, so you will need to shim the cylinder block up from the crankcase a little.
Let us know how you get on,
Bob
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Bump clearance is .045-.050 if the engine has a change over valve and .075-.080 if it does not. If your valves seats are recessed as most are with high hours starting will be easier if you stay at the minimum or even .005" under minimum.
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Thank you 38ac for confirming the bump clearances, the cylinder needs raising by about 25 thou with shims.
Glort, I have wondered for a while if the coking problem is caused by oil blowing up past the piston rings. I suspect that these old engines were designed with generous piston ring clearances because they were intended to run with cold crankcase temperatures during short runs. The problem being that during a longer run the engine and oil will eventually heat up and the piston rings grow to provide a better/tighter seal, thus short runs will always burn more sump oil. Another likely culprit could be a damaged diaphragm preventing the expulsion of oil fumes from the crankcase as the piston travels downwards, this could result in a positive crankcase pressure and excessive oil being pumped upwards through the rings and being burned in the cylinder. A sure sign would be if there is oil leaking out from around the crankshaft main bearings behind the flywheels.
I still believe Glort is right that the cost of implementing and running a water injection system is so small that it should be mandatory on any system expected to provide reliable long term service.
Bob
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I'll readily admit, I would not have thought there would have been much problem with diesel causing Coking in any engine that
The 1000 hours Bruce mentions in vehicular terms at an average of 60 KMH would be 60K Km. No one would expect to tear an engine down that quick due to coking or anything else so the question would be why do these engines need it?
My theory on that is because the Listeroids are a slow speed engine which run at a fixed speed.
With automobile diesel engines (like my truck) the speed and load constantly varies and sometimes I even rev it a bit higher than usual to blow the "snot" out. :)
Secondly, many listeroid systems use a large evaporative water storage tank for cooling.
This can result in many hours of running at temperatures that are less than optimal.
If the tank is too large, the engine can run for a long time without ever reaching 190f, creating an environment for soot buildup.
With stationary diesels, it's probably important to get them up to operating temperature as quickly as possible (Just like in a diesel automobile with a thermostat).
Just a thought.
Veggie
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I reduced my bump clearance for my elevation of 5600 ft. By the book, which I can't recall. That may be a factor.
I do think the cool running of the CS is part of the carbon issue. Water injection is pretty easy for a stationary setup. I like my gravity and intake vacuum drawn setup. I'm using well water (rain is a rarity here) so it will be interesting to see how that goes. I'm adding 20% methanol in the winter, 10% in spring and fall.
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Hi Veggie, I think you are probably right about carbon build up being a mixture of cold running temperatures and slow RPM. I have wondered for a while about buying one of the thermostat kits that are available here: https://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Lister-CS-Thermostat-Kit.html
This should allow the engine to reach optimal running temperature quicker but won`t do anything for the cold crankcase temperatures, has anyone tried to install an electric crankcase oil heater? These are regularly fitted to back up generators in hospitals and other essential service providers, when the engine is not running they have a life support system that maintains them at running temperature to ensure instantaneous start in the event of a blackout.
Bruce, our old mate Glort adds a little regular gasoline to his WVO in winter, this helps it light off in cold weather. If you were to buy E10 (10% ethanol gasoline mix), you could add water to it and give it a good shake, the water will absorb the ethanol and then settle to the bottom. You can then decant off the water ethanol mix to use in you water injection system, while the gasoline remaining should be good for any other equipment you have. Probably cheaper than buying methanol.
Bob
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Re: quick engine warm-up. I recall reading somewhere about putting a valve in the lower water pipe so that flow into the engine can be adjusted to achieve quick warm-up as well as stable engine temps.
That is how I have mine and it seems to work well.
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Bob, the methanol is free to me, left over from a 2 hp Honda outboard I modified to run as a pseudo diesel on methanol using Mark Cherry's Smartplug invention. A racetrack in a nearby town sells it pretty cheap.
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Yes, Mark Cherry was legit, he just couldn't sell his idea to the automotive industry. He had a contract with Darpa as part of the "one fuel forward" research program. My version of his original patent worked fine in my Honda 4cy outboard running methanol. I only had to apply current for starting. Increasing compression and getting enough fuel flow (double the normal gasoline flow rate) from the carb were challenging, but it did work quite well.
In his later versions Mark Cherry was varying the current to the platinum element to adjust ignition timing.
I don't know if it's possible to run a gas engine on oil using his method. I know he had success with aqueous fuels (less refined alcohol), with the benefit for very low NOX due to all the water and the lower combustion temps. Again, no interest from industry.
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tyssniffen,
When you re-assemble the head, consider spraying the head gasket on both sides with Permatex Copper Gasket coating.
Its adds additional sealing for the water passage ports.
Here's how I did mine ...
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+1 I've used the same copper spray when reusing head gaskets. It does work.
Water passage sealing is a big problem for Listeroids with liners, with a protruding lip. Best to address head and cylinder top flatness, and lip protrusion if you're having problems with leaks. The protrusion of the liner causes concave warping of the head, which causes insufficient pressure at coolant passages.
The stock Rajkot copper/asbestos gaskets with asbestos soaked with Permatex aviation gasket sealer is the best for the bad head/liner protrusion situation; I tried everything before finally fixing the problem. Copper spray does also help seal the water passages. Combined it was still only a 400 hour solution before leaks.
The best fix is to reduce the protrusion to under 0.005 inches (5 mils) and flatten the head and cylinder top. I used the classic farmer fix- sandpaper with spray contact cement on plate glass on non-slip foam shelf liner on cast iron saw top.
Lots of elbow grease to flatten the concave head but it's doable. A file and careful work for the liner protrusion prevents another concavity.
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+1 I've used the same copper spray when reusing head gaskets. It does work.
Water passage sealing is a big problem for Listeroids with liners, with a protruding lip. Best to address head and cylinder top flatness, and lip protrusion if you're having problems with leaks. The protrusion of the liner causes concave warping of the head, which causes insufficient pressure at coolant passages.
The stock Rajkot copper/asbestos gaskets with asbestos soaked with Permatex aviation gasket sealer is the best for the bad head/liner protrusion situation; I tried everything before finally fixing the problem. Copper spray does also help seal the water passages. Combined it was still only a 400 hour solution before leaks.
The best fix is to reduce the protrusion to under 0.005 inches (5 mils) and flatten the head and cylinder top. I used the classic farmer fix- sandpaper with spray contact cement on plate glass on non-slip foam shelf liner on cast iron saw top.
Lots of elbow grease to flatten the concave head but it's doable. A file and careful work for the liner protrusion prevents another concavity.
Hi Bruce and others
I have just been reading up on this as I'm interested in head and base gasket sealing at the moment
I would guess in a metric environment that liner protrusion is more like a tenth of a millimetre? If it's five thou?
Cheers
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6 mils or 0.006 inches is the thickness of a standard sheet of copy paper.
I'd shoot for 0.1 millimeter = 4 mils or a shade under. More protrusion just means more leaks at 200 hrs+.
What I used was a feeler gauge next to the lip, and then ran my fingernail back and forth to determine if I was down to the feeler height yet.
One thing to check carefully is that the cylinder liner isn't being held up by some sloppy machining of the liner or cylinder. You may be able to rectify that with some careful dremel work. If you are having the machine shop do it properly, and the cylinder looks good, then they will cut the shoulder of the liner. I used a file to take down the protrusion, with a feeler gauge to test regularly all around and a lot of patience. I smoothed it with a disc sander.
No worries at all for the Lister clones or originals- they have no liner thus no protrusion.
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So, update on all this:
I finally got the proper copper sheet gaskets, and laptop the valves, and talked it all down and it is starting up no problem. I finally got the proper copper sheet gaskets, and laptop the valves, and torqued it all down and it is starting up no problem.
However, I did not do any spray, cause I didn’t see this post until now. And, sure enough, I have what looks like water leaking out at the bolts on top. At really zero run hours.
So, do I take it all down again and spread and put it back together?
( quite honestly, I really don’t understand this whole protrusion discussion. The liner of the cylinder protrudes above the plane of the head? Mine does not protrude. What protrusion are you talking about? )
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That's what happened to mine right from the factory. And that's why there is a picture above of my engine with the head off.
It's a pain in the butt.
The steel cylinder liner which is pressed into the cast iron cylinder/water jacket is sitting too high above the surface of the cast iron deck.
When the head is installed the protruding cylinder prevents the water jacket portion of the gasket from being adequately crushed.
Mine was protruding about .050" above the deck, and it should only protrude 0.003" to 0.005"
There are various ways to correct this. In my case I had to get a machinist friend to press out the liner, machine some material off it, and press it back into the block.
Others may have an easier fix.
Welcome to the world of Rajkot >:(
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Yes, the liner lip will be above the top of the cylinder. That's the protrusion we're talking about. It's highly unlikely that your liner does not protrude, unless you have a clone which has no liner. If there is no liner, it will not be sticking out below the bottom of the cylinder and there will be no seam about 1/2 inch around the cylinder bore on the head. Rajkot does make cylinders with no liner. If you got one, then your head or cylinder top is not flat, and must be made so per steps 2 and 3 below.
After the head has been torqued down on the protruding liner, it will become concave. Then even if you fix the protrusion, it will leak at the water passages. So three things must be done if you want to permanently fix the water leak issue:
1. Get the liner protrusion fixed by a machine shop unless you are very handy, careful and good with precision work and can do it yourself. Ask for 0.003" +- 0.002 protrusion.
2. Get the head mating surface flattened by a machine shop, unless you are very handy, careful and good with precision work and can do it yourself.
3.It's best to have the top of the cylinder flattened by the machine shop also.
With these done, any head gasket that fits will work and you won't have leaks.
I hope this is clear.