Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Lister Market Place (things for Sale) => Topic started by: Bolton Power Equipment on May 05, 2019, 08:17:31 PM

Title: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: Bolton Power Equipment on May 05, 2019, 08:17:31 PM
Hello All,

        We're ramping up importing new Listeroids configured as compressors. These will have all available upgrades including bronze idler gears, water pumps, thermostats and Bendix gear starters. We will be offering custom steel "C" channel frames and ST or Stanford power heads with control boxes, if requested. We are located in Massachusetts in the US. We will deliver locally in New England and drop ship anywhere else in the US. We are looking at the next load for delivery in mid-July this year. This forum is active with folks looking for Listeroids so I thought I'd post and see if any forum participants are interested in ordering from the next load?  http://www.boltonpowerequip.com (http://www.boltonpowerequip.com)  Please feel free to post here or drop us a note on the Website.

Best
Graham
Bolton Power Equipment
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: mike90045 on May 05, 2019, 09:56:23 PM
What will the change-over kit consist of ?  new camshaft?

What is the oiling system  Splash or pump & splash ?

What grade sand is included in the internal paint pockets #20 ?  #40 ?
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: broncodriver99 on May 05, 2019, 10:11:17 PM
Here is the correct link.

http://www.boltonpowerequip.com/
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: broncodriver99 on May 05, 2019, 10:13:11 PM
Hmmm. 50,000 hours?
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: Bolton Power Equipment on May 06, 2019, 02:59:51 AM

Mike 90045


What will the change-over kit consist of ?  new camshaft?
          Same Cam. "Accessory" kit includes pump, lines, tank, injector etc.

What is the oiling system  Splash or pump & splash ?
          Pump and Splash

What grade sand is included in the internal paint pockets #20 ?  #40 ?
         The interiors of the crankcases are steam cleaned and painted with epoxy paint before the build. Haven't found any loose sand yet,    
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: BruceM on May 06, 2019, 04:50:23 PM
Bare crackcase is better still, since slapping chaulky filler and epoxy over sand filled voids is well within Rajkot standards. Nothing you are attempting regarding Rajkot has not been tried before.  They are incapable of maintaining any sort of quality control from one batch to the next.  An honest seller would sell them as a kit of parts to be inspected carefully during the build, and replaced as needed.  You should remove the 50,000 hrs, it makes you seem either naive or a con man.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: Bolton Power Equipment on May 13, 2019, 06:35:56 PM
Bare crackcase is better still, since slapping chaulky filler and epoxy over sand filled voids is well within Rajkot standards. Nothing you are attempting regarding Rajkot has not been tried before.  They are incapable of maintaining any sort of quality control from one batch to the next.  An honest seller would sell them as a kit of parts to be inspected carefully during the build, and replaced as needed.  You should remove the 50,000 hrs, it makes you seem either naive or a con man.

Iíve been doing this for 25 years and I know what works when importing equipment from the developing world. You are correct, delivering on specific quality metrics is a problem with hand built machines. Thatís why Iím not asking for specific quality metrics. Iím asking for simple procedures during the build that embed the quality factors Iím looking for. That can be consistently done. If the inside of the crankcase is cleaned and painted with a heavy epoxy paint you arenít going to have a problem with sand. I havenít found a sand problem with a Listeroid in the 5 or so years Iíve been doing this. As far as communicating my needs to the vendor, I ask for consistency with a clear and honest understanding that the next order is always dependent on the last order. In the 25 years I imported diesel engines and other equipment from China, that was the understanding and I was never disappointed. If however you are a one-off buyer that understanding does not apply. Iím not a one-off buyer. Indian businessmen are as pragmatic as anyone else. They want repeat business.
As far as being an ďhonest sellerĒ, my products are warrantied. If you have a problem Iíll make good on fixing it, whatever it takes.
As far as the 50,000 hrs. These engines are built like tanks. I have Chinese diesels that I bought back in the 90ís and they are still working hard. Not only have none of them broken, they hardly even leak. These engines were designed mostly in the 30ís while Listers were designed even earlier and are even more over-designed for durability. Iíve read that Listers were designed for a 50,000 hr. MTBF and that wouldnít surprise me.
Most customers donít want to build from parts, thatís why they buy pre-built and tested units like mine. Itís my belief that doing what I do yields the same or better customer satisfaction than building from a bare crankcase would with a lot less time and aggravation.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: BruceM on May 13, 2019, 06:43:46 PM
We all look forward to hearing from your customers and wish you success.  Rajkot has been a serious challenge for larger volume US importers who had plenty of experience with China importing.  I hope you can crack them, as yes, a ready to run system has a much bigger market. I wonder how you plan to get around the EPA issue?
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: Bolton Power Equipment on May 13, 2019, 09:40:29 PM
I'm hoping to replicate my success with importing from China. Another thing I will do as things ramp is make regular visits to the vendor(s). After more than 30 years of working with and in Asia I've learned how important face time and personal relationships are. I traveled to China once or twice a year to maintain the relationships. The units will be built and tested in India but delivered here as compressors with parts kit from the full build in India for EPA requirements.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: BruceM on May 13, 2019, 11:09:43 PM
Others have gone to Rajkot as well. Best wishes for your success.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: guest23837 on May 14, 2019, 01:09:11 AM
Are they Chinese Listeroids?
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: Bolton Power Equipment on May 14, 2019, 02:05:38 AM
No they are Indian but the question was raised about how I would manage consistency of quality and how I came to mention the design reliability. I imported Chinese 70 - 80 year old technology for 25 years where there are a lot of similarities. My point was a similar approach.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: glort on May 14, 2019, 05:08:38 AM

May I ask how many of these Listeroids you have sold so far and have running in the field?
Any reported issues ?
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: Bolton Power Equipment on May 16, 2019, 10:06:42 PM
I havenít sold any yet, hence the ďramping upĒ in my first post. I wouldnít use a customer as a test bed. I donít sell equipment unless Iím comfortable with what it is and what it does. Iíve spent the last 4+ years testing to make sure these machines are reliable and what I get from the factory is repeatable. When I started importing the Chinese tractors I didnít sell them for 3 years because I wanted to run through 2 growing seasons to see how they performed in the fields, plus a couple of winters for cold starts and plowing. 20 years later I still have most of the spares I ordered because they were so reliable. For the Listeroids I wanted to run them at no-load, partial-load and heavy-load for extended periods, 24-36 hours continuously with at least 100 thermal cycles over time. The heads are big and have a lot of mass. I wanted to heat and cool them many times to test the head bolts and make sure they were consistently well within their plastic range so they didnít lose the head gasket as the parts expanded and contracted. What I found was no leakage, zero. I also wanted to measure oil usage under different load conditions. I wanted to check the particulates in suspension in the lube oil after ďXĒ hours of runtime. Which oil seems to work best?  I wanted to check hot starts and cold starts in the winter, in humid conditions and in summer. The only issue I found on one machine  was an oil pump that wept about Ĺ teaspoon of oil every 10 hours of run time or so. It was a bad stem seal and being an external pump took about 30 minutes to replace. After 4+ years of testing not a single critical failure, No seal leaks (other than the one pump), no fueling system issues, no abnormal clearance wear (bearing lash), no valve gear issues, no need to adjust the valves, no issues with the transfer valve leaking, no visible smoke at no or low load after break-in and warm-up. They do take 10-20 hours of run-time to seat the rings. Until they do, they smoke a little but after break-in they are remarkably clean. The only issue other than the oil pump was the leather ďVĒ belts which stretch so I replaced them with green stripes. That was about it. So Iím comfortable that these things are pretty much bullet proof and Iím ready to sell and support them.  Iíll tell you one thing I did not expect was the stability of the governors. I expected that the ďKĒ factor of the springs and the masses of the centrifugal weights would be all over the map and the speed would drift a lot under varying loads when used as an A.C. generator. That didnít happen. I loaded the generators to 50% and only lost about 40 - 50 rpms on a 1,000 rpm engine. Thatís only about 2 Hz drop. So setting the governor to run no-load at 62 Hz is well within electrical tolerance and speed limits for the ST alternator head and any residential load. I was amazed at how well the governors worked. I did not expect them  to work that well. Bottom line these Listeroids will make incredibly reliable and stable off-grid and/or emergency power generators.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: glort on May 16, 2019, 11:19:58 PM

Thanks.
Very interesting.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: BruceM on May 16, 2019, 11:48:04 PM
If you think Rajkot can put consistently ready to run engines in a crate for you with typical China tractor quality...you are heading for a rude lesson.

Rajkot has not been in the same ballpark as China in consistency; we all wish you'd find someone in China to build Lister CS clones.  Rajkot is even infamous within India, as we learned here from a native many years ago. 

Sample pieces for evaluation will always be the finest they can manage...but not much like the following containers.  Competent and technically skilled people I respect have spent a great deal of time and money hoping to pull up Rajkot standards, and largely failed in getting those new stardards consistently.  Things like cam lobe placement, cam straightness, tappet alignment/binding, casting quality and material, weight of con rod and piston , flywheel key location and mass of counterbalance, finish of machined parts, valve placement/spacing in the head/rocker arm placement, voids in the head casting, idler gear location/lash, finish of cast parts, and cylinder liner protrusion all vary WIDELY.  These are all things the skilled builders here have to check and fix, and I've missed some other common ones.

The CS is a great engine and I'm glad for my Rajkot kit of mostly usable parts with rework, machining and some replacement.  With a reputable dealer like Gary at DES, bad parts are not a risk.  I would have gladly paid more for a China quality product, but that doesn't exist.


 
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: dieselspanner on May 17, 2019, 10:30:52 AM
Hi Graham.

Looks like you've done your homework. Maybe there will be a resurgence of interest in the CS, in the States, best of luck, keep posting!

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: Bolton Power Equipment on May 17, 2019, 02:26:03 PM
BruceM,

       You are correct, Chinese tractors and Listeroids are apples and oranges, but I'm not trying to compare them 1 for 1. The goal is to import the product within an acceptable performance envelope. That requires some level of consistency. I'm not  trying to improve the over all quality because with hand built machines and no modern machining technology thats not an achievable "ask". The Chinese tractor is a much more complex machine than a CS so to broaden the envelope you must improve quality. Thats possible in China, I watched it happen over the 20 years I imported them. The approach with the CS was to over design the things, basically throwing material at it. My approach as I mentioned earlier in other posts is to ask the manufacturer to add manufacturing steps and features that will keep the product within an acceptable quality envelope. These things are so over designed it's ridiculous, a 10 Hp engine that weighs close to 1/2 a ton... I'm aware of the cherry picking that could have occurred if I'd told the vendor they were for evaluation so I didn't.  I told them it was a one time purchase for "the farm". I wanted off the shelf product. I'm well aware of others failing to "bring up Rajkot quality". I'm an engineer by training so I look at problems in the context of root causes and practical processes to resolve. I think others have failed looking at trying to change Indian process to meet their requirements. I prefer to adapt my requirements to meet Indian process. So I have and will continue to add features that they are capable of adding to their process to align with my requirements. I can't comment of the other manufacturing incongruities you mention because I haven't seen them. Another thing to note is that there are many manufacturers and the prices vary quite a bit. But as always you get what you pay for so I don't shop by price. The CS market in India has softened so the committed manufacturers in India are looking for new markets. They want to re-invigorate the US market so I believe they will try hard to cooperate, it's in their best interest. My approach will be to give them a path forward that they can navigate to grow the business. I can't promise that there will be no issues but I will stock parts and make good on any problem. I do however believe that my adaptive approach is a practical path forward considering the realities of Listeroid manufacturing in India.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: Bolton Power Equipment on May 17, 2019, 02:30:52 PM
Hi Graham.

Looks like you've done your homework. Maybe there will be a resurgence of interest in the CS, in the States, best of luck, keep posting!

Cheers
Stef

Hope so Stef, they are fantastic machines.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: Tanman on July 29, 2019, 11:42:56 PM
Iíve been following this thread with lots of interest. Have the first batch of engines arrived? Any updates?
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: glort on July 30, 2019, 12:33:44 PM
Iíve been following this thread with lots of interest. Have the first batch of engines arrived? Any updates?

The guy had them on his website when he started the thread and they looked like they were in the US.
Probably best to send him an email and see how you go. My bet is he either has none or a warehouse full.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: Bolton Power Equipment on August 03, 2019, 08:03:31 PM
Iíve been following this thread with lots of interest. Have the first batch of engines arrived? Any updates?

The guy had them on his website when he started the thread and they looked like they were in the US.
Probably best to send him an email and see how you go. My bet is he either has none or a warehouse full.

I had a couple of eval units in the US, one left, a 10/1. I will be ordering shortly some 10/1's and 6/1's if I don't get a specific requirement for anything else. The 10/1 and 6/1 are the most popular it seems. I'm re-configuring to a water pump only (no radiator), a bendix starter and no rail frame since all inquiries so far have wanted to custom mount and build their own cooling system. I'll be putting in an order within a month or 2. 
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: glort on August 04, 2019, 01:03:40 AM

I had a couple of eval units in the US, one left, a 10/1.

 I'll be putting in an order within a month or 2.

So they aren't exactly Flying out the door then. Might explain why the Chinese haven't taken them on.
Once can deduce your total experience with these units you think will be different to all the rest is exactly, 2.
Kinda.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: Bolton Power Equipment on August 04, 2019, 04:04:14 AM

I had a couple of eval units in the US, one left, a 10/1.

 I'll be putting in an order within a month or 2.

So they aren't exactly Flying out the door then. Might explain why the Chinese haven't taken them on.
Once can deduce your total experience with these units you think will be different to all the rest is exactly, 2.
Kinda.

I haven't offered any volume for sale yet. I've been testing. Same thing I did with the tractors. After 2 years of testing I'm comfortable with them and will start importing but just like the tractors I'll start slow and build the inventory that sells. Again same approach with the tractors. It took 3 years to go from the first tractor to 1-2 containers per month. I anticipate the same with the listeroids. I'm in no rush, I'd rather do it right. People have every right to be cautious , it's their hard earned money. But when the first volume units are deployed the owners will speak well of them and that word of mouth will ramp the business. Same as the tractors. Listeroids aren't mass market, they are a niche product, but a very unique and useful niche product.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: veggie on August 04, 2019, 05:54:00 PM

50,000 hours !

In 10 years the average car engine only has approx 10,000 hrs.
(average 3 hrs per day X 365 days X 10 years = 10,950 hrs)

50,000 hrs / 5 hrs per day = 10,000 days ( or 27 years ) of running every day without major overhaul.

Based on the service work that is discussed here by members, I would say your claim is off by about 24 years worth of running.
A Listeroid work engine used most days of the week should need some considerable service within 4 -5 years.

Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: glort on August 05, 2019, 02:43:04 AM

50,000 hrs / 5 hrs per day = 10,000 days ( or 27 years ) of running every day without major overhaul.

Wee Willy Winky used to claim 100K hours for his engines..... Which last time I looked was going to be about the time it took him to sell one despite listing it at about 17 different price points.

What people who make these longevity claims miss is that the  ultimate life of an engine is not so much dependent on it's precision engineering and tolerances, it's dependent on it's filtration.

Particles both in the air and in the oil make a HUGE difference to the wear factor of an engine.  Studies have been done by engine, Oil and filter  manufactures that conclusively prove this so worrying about the mechanicals of and engine and then claiming extensive life from one which does not have an oil filter or a rudimentary one and just a single paper filter rather than something at least with an oil bath type is overlooking the fact of what extended life time is really all about.

I was recently reading a test done on engines in a Mine. By super filtering the oil and Multi stage filtering the air, They extended the engine life of the machinery four fold and were saving $216K a year in maintence costs just on the smaller Loader fleet they had.

Those of us running engines without good filtering are not getting the best engine life. The advantage with a stationary engine is that space and packaging is not so much a consideration as it is with vehicles.  An oil bath or cyclone air filter would also do a lot of good particularly for engines in Dusty environments doing long hours.

A concept I have always had in my head but never tried would be to bubble the air through a column of water. This should  clean it well and also add a lot of humidity which is also helpful in reducing intake air temps and engine cleaning. Might reduce intake noise as well.
 Never seen or heard of it being done and never set it up be maybe I might try it one day If I can think a practical way of doing it.

For an engine to go these extended periods, It would need a LOT in the way of air and Oil  filtration no matter how good the mechanicals were.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: Tanman on August 05, 2019, 02:54:36 PM
Well if they do turn out better than the average listeroid I would be interested in picking one up in 2-3 years for sure. Iíll be moving to a better environment to have a listeroid type setup at my place. Excited to wait watch and see.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: AdeV on August 05, 2019, 05:45:38 PM
So they aren't exactly Flying out the door then. Might explain why the Chinese haven't taken them on.

I suspect there's a couple of main reasons the Chinese haven't taken them on:

1 - they've already got a bazillion Kubota clones in all HP ranges from 3 to 23 (ish), and there's at least 100 bazillion units already out there working their dieselly arses off day and night (often both). Developing a CS clone would be pointless.

2 - the EPA thing... China is a far more developed economy than India these days, so making a "box of bits" which claims to be one thing in order to "sneak" past certain enviornmental laws... well, it's just not worth their bother. They'll never sell in volume, unlike the Kubotalikes.

I'd quite like to import a container load of those Kubota type engines here to the UK, but I'm stuffed by the "CE Mark" legislation, which requires thousands of dollars of paperwork, reports, drawings and so forth, just to "prove" that they aren't dangerous or something, not to mention thousands of pounds of VAT and duty (all payable up front)...
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: glort on August 05, 2019, 11:13:47 PM

Good points Ade.
I have seen pics of used walking tractors in a yard which looks like it's an acre or more. Those engines are everywhere all over Asia and really a lot more versatile than  the Lister type.  I suspect Longevity wise they would do every bit as well as a Lister type.

The Changfa's Et al also have one HUGE advantage over the lister style.... They routinely have a headlight Fitted so when you are coming  home on your 2 Wheeled walking tractor with the Cart attached after a long day in the rice Paddy, you don't hit a cow on the road in the dark.

Bet the Lister Boffins never thought to take that into account!   :laugh:

I'd not be surprised in the least if they started Putting USB ports on these engines so farmers could charge their Phones.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: Bolton Power Equipment on August 09, 2019, 08:30:46 PM

50,000 hours !

In 10 years the average car engine only has approx 10,000 hrs.
(average 3 hrs per day X 365 days X 10 years = 10,950 hrs)

50,000 hrs / 5 hrs per day = 10,000 days ( or 27 years ) of running every day without major overhaul.

Based on the service work that is discussed here by members, I would say your claim is off by about 24 years worth of running.


Diesels last a long long time. A listeroid is an over designed extremely low stress e.g. yield, engine. To put it in perspective years ago I had an 88 F250 truck with a 7.3L IDI diesel. I put 500,000 miles on that engine with zero failures that required road service on the engine. Batteries and tires yes but never anything broken in the engine. The only parts I ever installed on that motor was a set of glow plugs and I replaced a dripping injector, just one. 500,000 miles and maybe an average speed of 30 mph is about 17,000 hours of run time. Maintenance yes, but no failures. That V8 7.3 was much much more complicated than a listeroid and it weighed maybe twice as much, but put out 20X the power.  When I sold it because the body was shot the motor was humming like new and burning no oil. It would not surprise me at all to see a well maintained listeroid chugging away at 50,000 hours.
A Listeroid work engine used most days of the week should need some considerable service within 4 -5 years.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: glort on August 10, 2019, 02:38:36 AM


Diesels last a long long time. A listeroid is an over designed extremely low stress e.g. yield, engine. 

It would not surprise me at all to see a well maintained listeroid chugging away at 50,000 hours.

Mate I don't know if you have done any reading here or just come to push your business interests but you are talking to people who pretty much at a Minimum, have a decade of experience with these things on their own, and probably several centuries combined. You are talking to many people whom in some cases have torn down, modified and rebuilt dozens of these things. And you are trying to tell them you know better after playing with a couple for a couple of years.  I'm sure you can see the credabiolity problem there.

If you go back through the loads of info here again going back over 10 years, you will see people well understand these things and their abilities and limitations. Unless you have re invented the wheel, there is nothing to say your engines are any different or better than the ones people have been playing with  for a VERY long time.

Describing what is well known and making predictions that in no way add up to the hands on experience so many people have with these engines in all their different sizes and flavours, is not going to convince anyone nor change their minds. 
From what I can tell, you have a few years experience playing with these things but you are trying to tell people whom have relied on them daily for years and torn loads of them apart, that what they know is wrong.

From what I can see, the sum total of your experience with these engines is you have been testing a couple ( or was it just one actually used) for a couple of years. That means absolutely nothing. I have had one of these things about 10 years but there would be a bunch of people here that would run theirs more in a month or two than mine has done in it's life.  Exactly how many hours has this test engine of yours done?  I know for a fact the engine I have is a complete and utter piece of garbage with every known fault these things have but it's probably done a couple of hundred hours and runs fine too.  How it runs at 500 hours and beyond I expect would be a very different thing.

Are you even aware of the common problems with these engines and what specifically have you done to address them? If you listed those you would have a lot more traction in trying to convince people the engines you are selling will be different and more reliable.

Sorry, but what would or wouldn't surprise you or what you think is really insignificant to the decades of hands on experience people here have with these engines and the information they have shared which pretty much all flys in the face of your own. Which to be honest, is nothing more than sales Hype rather than anything remotely technical or detailed .
You have actually posted ZERO information or details that would change anyone's mind that you have overcome the mountains of documented problems these engines can have due to the terrible manufacturing practices and non existent quality control from where you are sourcing them that is the same place everyone else has.
Have you even been to any of the factories and seen and spoken to those making them first hand or has this all been organised through emails?

Did you tear either of these engines down you tested at any point and check them to be in spec and assembled correctly or did you just take the assurances of the person you bought them off because they said the right things you wanted to believe? Without a teardown and measurement, you are kidding yourself far more than anyone else.  I see nothing so far that suggests that you have done anything but run them.... for unknown hours with an unknown load. 

I understand you are trying to push these things and have a financial vested interest in them and therefore want to show them in the best light. Unfortunately You are completely and utterly out of your depth here with the experience and knowledge many have ( and I'm NOT talking about myself)  but as disagreeable as some here can be, their opinions formed over many years and with at least 10's of engines will always be what I and pretty much everyone else goes with, especially as it completely agrees with my own limited experience. It will take a LOT for you or anyone else to come near the respect and believability people here hold that have already commented here.


You may be better off spending your time trying to push your beliefs of these things to less experienced people else where because I really don't think you are going to do much good trying to sell your Yellow snow to this Village of Eskimos.
Where you might get better returns for your efforts is to look at importing spare parts. These are always in demand ( despite the engines running 50K hours) and there would be I believe a better and more profitable market for them.... If you can compete with the other established people doing it in the limited market that exists.

Unless you can PROVE different, what you have is the same engines everyone else has. That's OK though. Just don't try to over hype them and tell people they are something they are not and that's good enough. The engines are well known to this audience, just make the things affordable and available and you are there. Plenty of people will buy them for what they are with all their faults and problems IF they can get them at a reasonable price. You'd do a lot better to be honest and say these things typically need work to get them right than try and tell them you think they should last 50K hours when I myself have yet to see anyone with EXPERIENCE claim that yet.
Just get the things into the US at a reasonable price and 90% of the work will be done then and there.

As one sales person to another, You are going to have to hit this audience with a lot of hard and documented facts to win them over that you have a better mousetrap and change their minds. Talk alone is not going to come near doing it. 


Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: Bolton Power Equipment on August 26, 2019, 06:12:22 PM


Diesels last a long long time. A listeroid is an over designed extremely low stress e.g. yield, engine. 

It would not surprise me at all to see a well maintained listeroid chugging away at 50,000 hours.

Mate I don't know if you have done any reading here or just come to push your business interests but you are talking to people who pretty much at a Minimum, have a decade of experience with these things on their own, and probably several centuries combined. You are talking to many people whom in some cases have torn down, modified and rebuilt dozens of these things. And you are trying to tell them you know better after playing with a couple for a couple of years.  I'm sure you can see the credabiolity problem there.

If you go back through the loads of info here again going back over 10 years, you will see people well understand these things and their abilities and limitations. Unless you have re invented the wheel, there is nothing to say your engines are any different or better than the ones people have been playing with  for a VERY long time.

Describing what is well known and making predictions that in no way add up to the hands on experience so many people have with these engines in all their different sizes and flavours, is not going to convince anyone nor change their minds. 
From what I can tell, you have a few years experience playing with these things but you are trying to tell people whom have relied on them daily for years and torn loads of them apart, that what they know is wrong.

From what I can see, the sum total of your experience with these engines is you have been testing a couple ( or was it just one actually used) for a couple of years. That means absolutely nothing. I have had one of these things about 10 years but there would be a bunch of people here that would run theirs more in a month or two than mine has done in it's life.  Exactly how many hours has this test engine of yours done?  I know for a fact the engine I have is a complete and utter piece of garbage with every known fault these things have but it's probably done a couple of hundred hours and runs fine too.  How it runs at 500 hours and beyond I expect would be a very different thing.

Are you even aware of the common problems with these engines and what specifically have you done to address them? If you listed those you would have a lot more traction in trying to convince people the engines you are selling will be different and more reliable.

Sorry, but what would or wouldn't surprise you or what you think is really insignificant to the decades of hands on experience people here have with these engines and the information they have shared which pretty much all flys in the face of your own. Which to be honest, is nothing more than sales Hype rather than anything remotely technical or detailed .
You have actually posted ZERO information or details that would change anyone's mind that you have overcome the mountains of documented problems these engines can have due to the terrible manufacturing practices and non existent quality control from where you are sourcing them that is the same place everyone else has.
Have you even been to any of the factories and seen and spoken to those making them first hand or has this all been organised through emails?

Did you tear either of these engines down you tested at any point and check them to be in spec and assembled correctly or did you just take the assurances of the person you bought them off because they said the right things you wanted to believe? Without a teardown and measurement, you are kidding yourself far more than anyone else.  I see nothing so far that suggests that you have done anything but run them.... for unknown hours with an unknown load. 

I understand you are trying to push these things and have a financial vested interest in them and therefore want to show them in the best light. Unfortunately You are completely and utterly out of your depth here with the experience and knowledge many have ( and I'm NOT talking about myself)  but as disagreeable as some here can be, their opinions formed over many years and with at least 10's of engines will always be what I and pretty much everyone else goes with, especially as it completely agrees with my own limited experience. It will take a LOT for you or anyone else to come near the respect and believability people here hold that have already commented here.


You may be better off spending your time trying to push your beliefs of these things to less experienced people else where because I really don't think you are going to do much good trying to sell your Yellow snow to this Village of Eskimos.
Where you might get better returns for your efforts is to look at importing spare parts. These are always in demand ( despite the engines running 50K hours) and there would be I believe a better and more profitable market for them.... If you can compete with the other established people doing it in the limited market that exists.

Unless you can PROVE different, what you have is the same engines everyone else has. That's OK though. Just don't try to over hype them and tell people they are something they are not and that's good enough. The engines are well known to this audience, just make the things affordable and available and you are there. Plenty of people will buy them for what they are with all their faults and problems IF they can get them at a reasonable price. You'd do a lot better to be honest and say these things typically need work to get them right than try and tell them you think they should last 50K hours when I myself have yet to see anyone with EXPERIENCE claim that yet.
Just get the things into the US at a reasonable price and 90% of the work will be done then and there.

As one sales person to another, You are going to have to hit this audience with a lot of hard and documented facts to win them over that you have a better mousetrap and change their minds. Talk alone is not going to come near doing it.


I guess you're right, what could I possibly know about diesel engines from the 3rd world? I only imported them for 20 years. 300-400 tractors and maybe twice that in small engines for generators and pumps. Been to the factories frequently and talked to the product managers and engineers. But how could I understand what they were talking about, I only got both my engineering degrees 40 years ago? Diesel engines from India don't use the same physics, chemistry or metallurgy as diesel engines from China so how could I compare them? So I wondered where you earned your engineering degrees, how many diesel engines you have imported and how many years you have been in business?? Curious.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: glort on August 26, 2019, 11:45:17 PM

I guess you're right, what could I possibly know about diesel engines from the 3rd world? I only imported them for 20 years. 300-400 tractors and maybe twice that in small engines for generators and pumps. Been to the factories frequently and talked to the product managers and engineers. But how could I understand what they were talking about, I only got both my engineering degrees 40 years ago? Diesel engines from India don't use the same physics, chemistry or metallurgy as diesel engines from China so how could I compare them? So I wondered where you earned your engineering degrees, how many diesel engines you have imported and how many years you have been in business?? Curious.

What  a very business like and professional reply.  ::)
If anyone had any doubts about your credibility, I'm sure you have cleared them up now and left no doubts in their mind.

You may not have liked what I said but you would also not be able to refute any of it either.

BTW, I have no skills of any kind, never worked on a thing mechanical in my life and certainly have no engineering qualifications.  I couldn't even Change a Lightbulb.  No doubt that admission will make you feel Vindicated and that your re direction was successful.

Thing is though, I'm not here trying to reassure everyone of the quality of a product I'm trying to sell to them or rely on it as part of my income.    :laugh:
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: mike90045 on August 27, 2019, 06:34:22 AM
......
.....
Thing is though, I'm not here trying to reassure everyone of the quality of a product I'm trying to sell to them or rely on it as part of my income.    :laugh:

Many members  of this forum (myself included) have found, consistently, major screwups with imported indian engines from several vendors.   We'd all like the holy grail of a robust, slow speed diesel, without misaligned cam lobes, and parts having been properly fitted with a small hammer, instead of a 15# sledge.   So, sadly, great skepticism (along with great interest) has accompanied your announcements.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: glort on August 27, 2019, 09:09:23 AM
So, sadly, great skepticism (along with great interest) has accompanied your announcements.

Given the MANY people on this and other forums and the well documented problems these engines do have, I think it's more than a bit rich for someone to come along declaring they have the perfect mousetrap based on their experience of unknown " testing" of 1 or 2 engines. We still don't know what that testing involved and if it was done over 100 hours or 10,000 hours.  We are just being given a lot of slick sales talk that these engines are better than any other have ever been.


I have seen this many times before on forums. Someone comes along trying to sell something, making big claims with nothing to back it up then gets all pissy when people question their highly suspect and unproven claims.
The next rebuttal  will be along the lines of well I'm taking my bat and ball and going home and you are all going to miss out now on my great product which you'll all be sorry for.

Always the same with these people that only come on a forum to post about the one thing of their self financial interest.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: ajaffa1 on August 27, 2019, 01:09:06 PM
I suspect, once again, that the problems with modern manufacturing comes down to accountants and other money men. They are all involved in the business of making money, rather than the business of making the best, most reliable/efficient equipment possible. They will cut corners at every opportunity and ignore quality control issues to maintain cash flow.

There is only one way to build an engine that will last: build every component to the specifications, have very skilled and well paid personnel to assemble it and do it in an environment that ensures total cleanliness during assembly.Then have it checked/inspected by a good quality control team, any failures at this stage get traced back to the assemblers and manufacturers with consequences.

I believe that changing our laws from 1 year warranty to five year warranty would have an enormous impact on how well built these machines would be, it would also help enormously if replacement parts were all to the same original specification and also came with a five year warranty.

It is heart breaking to see unskilled young people buying small engined equipment and then putting it out for the council to take and dump in landfill a year later because it is cheaper to replace it than try to repair it!

If you want our trust and support you need to back up your claims with hard evidence of quality manufacturing, cleanliness and longevity/reliability testing.

Bob
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: BruceM on August 27, 2019, 07:55:10 PM
Research done by XYZer (Dave) about 10 years ago showed that Rajkot was consistently mislocating the idler bolt location relative to the original CS design such that there was huge lash between it and the crank gear and cam gear. This was the cause of a fair number of idler gear failures.  The problem was that not only was it consistently wrong, it was not held to any tolerance so that Dave had to offer offset idlers made in a wide range of offsets up to 0.055" (the one I needed) in order to solve the problem for so many of us. He is and was a hero to many of us.

This is only one example of many tolerance and quality issues that are common, such as bent camshafts, misplaced cam lobes, casting defects of all sorts, and shoddy machining with dull tools.  I haven't seen anything posted that suggests Bolton is fully aware of these many Rajkot quality issues and has addressed them. Testing a few samples by running them (?!) means little, and this is hardly a demonstration of engineering prowess and instead shows an utter lack of knowledge of production engineering.  Rajkot is NOT China.

You can't just sprinkle marketing pixie dust on Rajkot product and call it a 50K Hour engine ready to run.  That won't fly on this forum.


Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: glort on August 28, 2019, 01:13:57 AM

There is only one way to build an engine that will last: build every component to the specifications, have very skilled and well paid personnel to assemble it and do it in an environment that ensures total cleanliness during assembly.
ed along with the other attributes you describe that could and have built many engines to better than factory standards.  Their work is well known, their contribution here and else where is enormous, certainly If I was in the US and wanted and engine I Knew I could rely on, then I'd simply pay the bucks and know I had the best guarantee possible that I had an engine as good as I was going to get.
I think it in fact insulting and discourteous to come here trying to sell things over what other long term members offer and have provided years of help and expert knowledge to others out of the goodness of their hearts and little else.

Being in Oz and not able to avail oneself of their services, should I need such expertise in engine building services, I'd be making a trip up north to see you Bob!  :0)

Quote
I believe that changing our laws from 1 year warranty to five year warranty would have an enormous impact on how well built these machines would be, it would also help enormously if replacement parts were all to the same original specification and also came with a five year warranty.

I was Cutting a Channel in concrete Yesterday and my angle Grinder erupted in flames. Most annoying and the thing was only about 20+ years old!!  >:(   :laugh:
I went to the hardware and bought a new one and a Circ saw when I was there.  I got Ryobi which isn't the best but I have my reasons well aside from price that make it or Makita what I will always buy.  I did compare the Makita which was a lot more but frankly could not see or feel any difference and they were both made in China anyway.  When I got them Home, I was surprised to see they had 4 year warranty. I thought that was pretty impressive for a lower end power tool. My last grinder was Ryobi and that got a pretty good thrashing and in Hindsight was probably going a bit hard with it when it did cremate itself.  Maybe they would last 3 days on a building site but I'm not a builder, just a backyard hacker and with a 4 Yr warranty and the for the price, seems decent enough value to me.

My father has bought a lot of AEG which has a 6 year warranty but that is double plus the price so to be expected.  I was also looking at a Kia Car review the other night and surprised to see in the states at least, comes with a 10 Yr warranty. I'm sure there is some fine print in there and it may be marketing Hype, Haven't delved it to look but on the face of it, seems pretty good.

It should also be remembered that a 1 Yr warranty is an arbitrary thing.  My father bought a TV couple of years ago, a Sony For $3000. At the 14-16? Month mark, it developed a line right across the screen.  Went back to the store told them and while the young guy initially tried to tell me it was out of warranty, Pointing out we both knew that was bullshit and did they want to play it the easy way or the hard way,  they pulled their head in and the result was a New TV.  The law here in oz states that something must have a reasonable life expectancy for the price.  That can be dubious but the test of would one expect a $3000 TV to last more than even 2 years is pretty easy. Had it been an Aldi $199 Job, may have been well different.

At Bunnings last Night I was also surprised when talking to the chatty Girl on the door about the recent frosts round here that they have a 12 Month " Warranty" on plants.  If the thing keels over, you can take it back for another one.  That would have to be the most dangerous warranty I ever heard of!
I did loose a $40 fruit tree last year very quickly obviously to frost but I would put that down to my fault in bad location rather than it be a product fault as such.

As I pointed out to the girl, Whenever I go there,I always go have a look at the " Reject" Plant trolley where they put the not so flash ones.  They are always well marked down and I can't remember any of the many I have bought off that which didn't buck up and do real well once we got them home.
I put that down to my horse manure/ wood shavings/ straw blended potting mix and the rabbit dropping stew made with Bog water.  Would put shoots on a billiard ball.   :laugh:

Quote
It is heart breaking to see unskilled young people buying small engined equipment and then putting it out for the council to take and dump in landfill a year later because it is cheaper to replace it than try to repair it!

Dunno about young people, I think it's a case of so many people!
Mate of mine last year got me to change his pool and solar pumps after getting a stupid  quote.  Lets face it, it's a bit of PVC gluing in the new pumps, it isn't rocket surgery. Mate is facinated there is never 1 Drop of water in the pump house. Don't know why he was expecting otherwise bat apparently the other pumps ALWAYS leaked.

While I was there he pointed out he was also up for a new mower as the old one was acting up and  they wanted more to fix it than it was worth.
It looked ok other than the obvious and common problem so I said you want me to fix that too? I said I think it will come in under $50.  He said fine.

$37  worth of parts later including new blades and an air filter, replaced the cracked Primer bulb and about 10 Min work and it was running perfect. Mate was stunned that was all it took and was done while he stood there talking to me wondering when the work was going to start.  I know the repair places have to make their money on labour but $300.... Come on.  He's good at his job but not too hands on so is at the mercy of these repairers.

Over the years I have been amazed at what I have kicked up on the side of the road or even in the old days at the tip.
I remember a mower I picked up that without looking at too much I took the engine off it and started to tear into it to rebuild it before discovering the thing looked like it hadn't done an hours work since it was rebuilt.  I put it back together, added the missing spark plug and the fuel cap and used the thing for several years in the mowing business I then had.  Many more things I have picked up were fine too including my beloved Expensive battery charger. Found it sitting in a skip bin, took it home and to my surprise there was nothing wrong with the thing.

Quote
If you want our trust and support you need to back up your claims with hard evidence of quality manufacturing, cleanliness and longevity/reliability testing.

I does amuse me that people come to forums full of enthusiasts with collective endless experience and knowledge and then try to lecture them as if they have as little knowledge and experience as themselves in the hopes they will just take their doubtful word for something.
For people whom claim to have so much business experience, one would think supporting evidence to back their claims would be an obvious and first thing they would do. That and some basic homework of the market they were approaching.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: glort on August 28, 2019, 01:15:19 AM

 I haven't seen anything posted that suggests Bolton is fully aware of these many Rajkot quality issues and has addressed them. Testing a few samples by running them (?!) means little, and this is hardly a demonstration of engineering prowess and instead shows an utter lack of knowledge of production engineering.  Rajkot is NOT China.

You can't just sprinkle marketing pixie dust on Rajkot product and call it a 50K Hour engine ready to run.  That won't fly on this forum.

Well said Bruce.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: veggie on August 28, 2019, 02:07:00 AM
"So I wondered where you earned your engineering degrees, how many diesel engines you have imported and how many years you have been in business?? Curious."

I have imported a lot of Chinese and Indian engines but that does not make me an expert on engines.
Owning a business does not mean that one can make an Indian engine into something that it's not.
An engineering degree should help one understand the limitations of reaching 50,000 hours on a non-precision engine built from average metallurgy and inconsistent clearances in critical places.

Some of the people on this forum have had extensive experience dealing directly with Rajkot companies. People like Mike Montieth have flown there and discussed quality issues with them. But the story always ends the same way. They promise the moon and deliver much much less.
Most of their antiquated machinery cannot hold tolerances that are needed for consistent quality. Castings are consistent poor quality and a lot of filler paint is used to hide defects.
Many components are still hand drilled, hand tapped, or pounded from tin by hand.
I have had firsthand experience and many such discussions with them only to be disappointed time an again.
In my opinion the only way one would stand a hope of delivering consistent quality is to station a quality control person at the factory and accept/reject  the components and clearances as the engines are built. That is how larger corporations deal with many Asian manufacturers.
Only my humble opinion of course.

Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: guest23837 on August 28, 2019, 02:06:32 PM
My 2/- worth. I have been reading reams of information about Listeroids  Modern things made in modern factories have a limited use life and some Ä1500.00 phones have built in obsolescence what chance has an item made from recycled scrap by peasants  in a shed got of lasting 10, 20 even 60+ years? It has to be zilch.
I think if you want an old engine you either buy a good running old engine or buy and restore an old engine using genuine parts, spending lavishly as you go. I know there's guys than can buy a Listeroid pull it apart and  fix all that's wrong with it. These guys have experience often have a well equipped workshop and time. The average bloke wanting cheap reliable power can basically forget it with one of these things.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: hwew on August 28, 2019, 09:05:40 PM
Oh boy ::), The Billion Dollar questions are, have the tooling been revamped in the factory?

CNC yet?

Castings,  ASTM grade? Are they still using filler on castings such as blocks, flywheels and cylinder jackets?

Fasteners, Did they get away from whitworth fasteners? If not time to update.

Metrology, (QA) CNN yet? Are all incoming parts and parts made in-house inspected? Magiflux cranks, rods, pistons, flywheels? How do they handle parts that are not in spec. What course of action is taken with venders? Are scar reports written up?

Rockwell?

ISO 9001?

I can continue.

The bottom line is we seen lots of junk coming out of India. We seen the work conditions in the factories. For what these engines are priced at the quality should be up to par with Kubota, Perkins and others. I would not pay that amount unless there have been big changes with manufacturing and Having real quality control standards set up and met. Also, the manufacturer should warranty their products. Real warranty like Kubota and others.

Otherwise itís best to stick with Kubota, and other manufacturers that are Putting out quality products. Even Changfaís quality years ago is better than what we seen on the Listeroids coming out of India.

Here is a thought, if someone can start a network to find Real used CS Lister engines and remanufacture them there might be a decent market if cost can be kept reasonable. They can go through customs legally. It would be an honest way to sell them in the US and other countries. I feel members here would feel comfortable purchasing a reman with a warranty at a fair price.

Henry
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: Bolton Power Equipment on August 29, 2019, 03:51:04 AM
Guys, let me say this again because it seems most of you missed it the first time. I didn't say I have the perfect mousetrap or a secret sauce to make the perfect listeriod. I said I've seen this movie before in China and I know how it ends. One of you said "China is not Rajkot". Well no it isn't, today. But it was 25 years ago when I started looking at Chinese tractors. I visited the factory and they were all hand made by dudes squatting on a dirt floor with hand tools next to a wooden cart with hand made parts on it in a room with no doors, sort of like a Chinese public bathroom, but thats another story. We had all the same issues with boring tool run out, milling tool chatter, misaligned holes, missing process steps, you name it. One importer called RHINO out in California just brought in containers and had so many problems it ultimately finished the company. I asked the product manager in China if the RHINO people had ever visited the factory and he said "no". So I went over there a number of times and looked at what they could do and what they couldn't do well. I didn't buy certain accessories from China, I had them made here in the US or Canada until they could make them well enough, some they never did. In one case we had milling facing problems causing leaks so I asked them to double up on the gasket. I also bought enough tractors to have their attention when I came to visit. Bottom line I fine tuned what I had. Listeriods are the same. Many of you are talking about how they don't have tight tolerances. They don't, but they don't need them. You can get 10 Hp at 7,000 rpms out of a 5 lb aluminum chainsaw motor, but it better be C&C designed and patterned along with very good materials QC or it won't last very long. But a listeriod weighs 1,000 lbs and turns at 1,000 rpm max. A few thousands off on the bore isn't going to matter and you don't need to magnaflux a 50 lb. 10Hp crankshaft that turns at 1,000 rpms. With a 400 HP engine it might be a good idea. With a 500 lb. 10HP crankcase you don't need ASTM grade cast iron either. That engine is so over designed it will be running long after the chain saw motor is shrapnel. The Chinese solved those issues much the same way by over designing the product. I've spent a few years testing these things and what I see is exactly what I expected. An over-designed 100 year old design that stills works for a reason. If Indians are one thing they are smart business people. I will buy volume as long as they give me what they can, not what they can't. Same offer I made the Chinese and I never had quality problems. Rhino did, I didn't, same factory group. The Chinese today have come a long way with manufacturing but 25 years ago it was Rajkot today. I will deal with the manufacturer the same way and get a consistent and acceptable product. I've already decided on buying some parts here, just like I did with the tractors. No magic, just knowing what you have.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: glort on August 29, 2019, 05:36:46 AM

Thank you for explaining that again to those of us that missed it the first time.

I now understand the reason you think your engines will last 50K hours and be superior not having the problems other people encountered with these engines and manufacturers is because you told the smart Indian Business men that if they sold you good engines, you'd buy more.

I'm sure that promise of future orders of what?  5-10 machines at a time,  changed the outlook of every worker in the factory and inspired them to all take a level of pride and care in assembling these engines like they have never done or even know how to do, like ever before.  No doubt the managers and owners of the plants will also be encouraging their workers to slow down and take their time to ensure every one of the engines they build for you prioritises quality over the usual Quantity targets they push for. 

If there is one thing your comments have proven far beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind, it's the Vindication of Bruce's statement that you haven't got a clue about the quality issues of these engines nor done a thing to address them.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: mikenash on August 29, 2019, 07:10:04 AM
Actually, Mr Bolton, there's a bunch of folks here who wish you well; who would be pleased to see a quality entrant into the market if you manage that; and who will watch your progress with an open mind & with genuine interest

Although one might think so on a Word Count basis, Mr Glort doesn't represent any sort of majority view here - just himself

Best of luck to you
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: broncodriver99 on August 29, 2019, 08:14:10 AM
Actually, Mr Bolton, there's a bunch of folks here who wish you well; who would be pleased to see a quality entrant into the market if you manage that; and who will watch your progress with an open mind & with genuine interest

X2 I hope you can make a go at it. Others have tried and failed and others have tried and just build in enough profit to cover the cost of failures. I do believe you will be fighting an uphill battle though, and I do believe that a 50K hour engine is pretty far fetched considering the original Brit iron couldn't do it, but if you can nail down a quality product with quality parts availability that will only help everyone else still in this game. I opted to go the Genuine Lister route, but a source of guaranteed quality parts wouldn't be a bad thing.

Just FYI, the max life expectancy of Original Dursley engines was about 25k hours before MAJOR overhauls as documented in several pieces of correspondence between the factory or dealers and end users/perspective buyers. Scans of the original correspondence is available somewhere on this forum. If that is what Lister could accomplish at the height of their manufacturing capabilities you can bet Rajkot can't hold a candle to it.

As I said before I hope you can make it happen, but the warnings, although some paragraphs long, should be accepted and respected. There is no way you will best Dursley and it's world class production of the original engines in Rajkot. I would imagine that with good QC and oversight you could produce an engine in Rajkot that would last 10-15k hours though.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: glort on August 29, 2019, 09:48:16 AM

Although one might think so on a Word Count basis, Mr Glort doesn't represent any sort of majority view here - just himself

Really Mike?
Then perhaps you could point out with detail and precision, anyone that HAS disagreed with what I have said and think these engines will be better than any other and have a chance in hell of doing 50K hours?
Unless you can see something I can't, I'd say I certainly represent the majority but please back up your allegations and show me where more people or anyone for that matter, have disagreed with what I have said that been of the same opinion.

You are always real keen to have a go and take the piss out of anything I say, usually with the support of your sidekick, now back it up or shut up.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: dieselspanner on August 29, 2019, 10:03:40 AM
To be fair  there's merit in both sides of this argument, a lot of experience on here verses an attempt to move the Listeroids on to, or even surpass, a level the Dursley machines achieved 75 years back,

It's easy to criticise, either the intentions of Mr Bolton, or the nay sayers.

Personally I wish Mr Bolton well and hope he posts his results, good or bad, for the benefit of all.

After all, he's either going to be right or wrong and the rest of us can only benefit from his efforts.

Cheers
Stef

Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: Bolton Power Equipment on August 29, 2019, 11:51:28 AM

Thank you for explaining that again to those of us that missed it the first time.

I now understand the reason you think your engines will last 50K hours and be superior not having the problems other people encountered with these engines and manufacturers is because you told the smart Indian Business men that if they sold you good engines, you'd buy more.

I'm sure that promise of future orders of what?  5-10 machines at a time,  changed the outlook of every worker in the factory and inspired them to all take a level of pride and care in assembling these engines like they have never done or even know how to do, like ever before.  No doubt the managers and owners of the plants will also be encouraging their workers to slow down and take their time to ensure every one of the engines they build for you prioritises quality over the usual Quantity targets they push for. 

If there is one thing your comments have proven far beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind, it's the Vindication of Bruce's statement that you haven't got a clue about the quality issues of these engines nor done a thing to address them.



How many 3rd world factories have you been too?? I've been to 5.. How many export managers have you had dinner with and discussed how they could meet their quotas? At least 5 for me. How many containers of equipment have you imported? No idea for me, lost count. It's very simple. I'm going to use an approach that has worked well in the past and give it a whirl. So far nothing to indicate that it won't produce a viable product as it has in the past. I have an open mind, do you?
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: veggie on August 29, 2019, 02:26:55 PM

Good luck with you project. I am sure that an enhanced quality Listeroid engine will have lots of buyers since there has been a shortage in the USA for several years now. Please keep us informed of your progress.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: Willw on August 29, 2019, 03:54:56 PM
I'm with Dieselspanner and Veggie.

Mr. Bolton give it a shot and please keep us informed; we will benefit either way, and you will benefit if it goes as you expect it to.

FWIW, a few years ago I used some of my retirement fund and took a chance and purchased 3 6/1 and 3 8/1 clones as well as several thousand dollars worth of parts for Listers and Petters from India.
It was a venture that I had pondered for quite some time, and I realized that the only way I would know for sure whether I could successfully import my own engines and parts would be to try.
Purchasing engines from the US vendors was out of the question as in addition to the usual fees that we hear about, I would then have to export them from the US and ship and import them here into the Cayman Islands. Was I successful? Yes. Did I learn something? Yes.

My point is Mr. Bolton wants to do something, he has been warned but he maintains his position, he will either succeed or fail and it will cost us nothing either way so lets watch and see what happens.

My 2 cents.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: ses on September 05, 2019, 03:27:41 PM
I have a few genuine Lister CS's for sale I brought back from the UK. Various states of repair I and pricing structures. My posting/threads are on the board.

I have no intention of hijacking this thread and wanted to say as a small businessman and entrepreneur I wholly support Graham at Bolton in his endeavors!

It must be noted that Gary at DES has been top notch as many of us know.

Finally, I also wanted to note I have no humane ideas for dealing with a problem like glort...
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: guest23837 on September 05, 2019, 09:47:50 PM
I have a few genuine Lister CS's for sale I brought back from the UK. Various states of repair I and pricing structures. My posting/threads are on the board.

I have no intention of hijacking this thread and wanted to say as a small businessman and entrepreneur I wholly support Graham at Bolton in his endeavors!

It must be noted that Gary at DES has been top notch as many of us know.

Finally, I also wanted to note I have no humane ideas for dealing with a problem like glort...

Watch a little Australian TV and you will appreciate why Glort is out in his shed so much. Tinkering, fettling and thinking
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: glort on September 05, 2019, 11:46:48 PM
Finally, I also wanted to note I have no humane ideas for dealing with a problem like glort...

Given I never get it in real life, I'd guarantee if we were standing face to face, like a few others here, you wouldn't have the near the balls to make the snide cheap shot personal comments either.   :laugh:
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: ses on September 06, 2019, 03:16:42 PM
Ha...Id wager you wouldn't be so windy with anyone face to face. Your keyboard protects your opinions well.

If I make that kangaroo hunt I'll look you up. It's be fun to properly relay some boundaries to you.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: glort on September 06, 2019, 04:13:37 PM
Ha...Id wager you wouldn't be so windy with anyone face to face. Your keyboard protects your opinions well.

If I make that kangaroo hunt I'll look you up. It's be fun to properly relay some boundaries to you.

I'm trying not to laugh, really I am.  Unfortunately I'm not succeeding too well.

Maybe just for once, you could actually contribute something useful here instead of every post you occasionally make being just for your own benefit in trying to flog engines you have been trying to off load for at least 6 years.
Says Volumes in itself.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: guest23837 on September 06, 2019, 04:29:48 PM
Really? Fisticuffs? We are mature men that like old engines not chavs. WTF is wrong with you threatening a bloke because you disagree with what he says? That's real freedom. I read many things I disagree with hear loads of nonsense in many places but so what? If you don't like an author or journalist don't read his books or articles why come on here and set out to be offended and offensive?
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: AdeV on September 06, 2019, 07:24:29 PM
Chaps, let's agree to let sleeping dogs lie on this one, eh, before I get a moderation request and actually have to do something about it...

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: guest23837 on September 06, 2019, 07:41:56 PM
Chaps, let's agree to let sleeping dogs lie on this one, eh, before I get a moderation request and actually have to do something about it...

Thanks.
Apologies Ade!
P
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 07, 2019, 02:38:47 AM
Hi AdeV

I think you let yourself sleep, and now you're waking up grumpy.

The children grew up uneducated, and now you want to kick them?

Around here is a saying: "dogs bark and caravan goes by"

You don't happen to have the LR1 manual out there, do you? if you have, send it to me in PDF, with the thanks in advance.

Always considering you.
VP
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: AdeV on September 07, 2019, 10:11:58 AM
Hi VP,

No - not grumpy, just trying to keep the tone a little more civil around here. The last thing I want to do is have this descend into a twitter-esque war of words...

Anyhoo.

No, sorry, I don't have an LR1 manual. I do have an LR1 in pieces, though, so if you do stumble across a manual, let me know! Because I can't remember how to put it back together again (doh!)
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: veggie on September 07, 2019, 09:49:56 PM

VP

I have an LR1 manual.
If you PM me your email address I will send it.

Veggie
Title: Re: New Listeroids for sale
Post by: sirpedrosa on September 08, 2019, 02:09:03 AM
Hi Veggie

Send also a copy to AdeV.

Cheers, and thanks again.
VP