Lister Engine Forum

Slow Speed Diesel Engines => Changfa Engines => Topic started by: Tanman on February 22, 2019, 04:31:06 PM

Title: 1115 build
Post by: Tanman on February 22, 2019, 04:31:06 PM
Hello fellow diesel addicts,

My first engine is arriving next Tuesday (thank you old seagull man) and I'm excited to start piecing together my first generator build. The goal for the build is longevity, fuel flexibility, and adaptability. I really want a power system that is tough as nails, isn't picky on fuel, and I can harvest multiple forms of energy off of. What I mean by adaptable is that I could have it running a 10-15kw head normally and be switched to turn an alternator to charge a battery bank in the future if needed and be able to harvest the heat from the water cooling. I would love to get one of those metal plates that allows you to run a radiator (or preferably a large barrel). I have a couple questions that I need the wisdom of my elders to solve.

1. Advice for acquiring a proper gen-head
2. Is utter power the only place that sells the cooling conversion plates?
3. Does anyone run a barrel for a radiator on their Chinese horizontal?
4. Any helpful advice for the project considering it's goals.

Thank you for taking the time to read this post, and keeping one of the coolest diy/engine forums I have found alive!
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: glort on February 23, 2019, 03:03:39 AM

I don't think the plates would be hard to make/ weld up.  They certainly seem a better idea than the hopper cooling that's for sure.
If you want to co-gen with this engine you'll need a pump to circulate the water.

I would be definately going for a radiator myself over a barrel.  The engine you have is 20 HP, Most examples of barrel cooling I have seen are running 6-12 Hp engines. Big difference especially if you are going to be putting decent hours on the thing. You can run the radiator as a no pressure system with a header tank. That's what I did with my roid and was very happy with the setup. Just put a 25L Drum up high t'd to the top hose for the Thermo syphon and it worked a treat.  Again for an engine that size I'd be tending toward the use of a pump to get positive circulation and unsure there were no hot spots.

I know everyone has this stone simple belief that the more minimalist the more "Bullet proof things are but I think thats a fallacy.
Again this summer if have been running a pair of car radiator fans off old solar panels in the shed window and this is about the 5th year I have run them. Brought them from my old house. They were 15 years old when I got them and they run 10 hours a day from barely turning to screaming and they still work perfect.

On the road I had a car radiator but I slowed the fans down by running a tail light globe in Circuit.  Now I would use a DC Thermostat or stage the fans with resistors through an arduino. With a simple overheat cutoff on the fuel the thing would be safe as houses and run at a nice temp no matter what the load.

I have been thinking along similar lines to you of setting up a multi purpose Genset.  I would have an induction motor for direct backfeed when the solar is low, I'd have a standalone Gen head for when the grid goes down and a couple of alts for battery charging or running inverters from... whyever I might want to do that.
Only thing that comes to mind is it's pretty much putting all my eggs in one basket. Might be better to add a string to ones Bow as it were but I could always do a portable setup as I was thinking of anyway.

I'd sure love an engine like yours.  I bought 2x 5hp China Horizontal 170's this week and a Yanmar Clone Vertical Cylinder as well as a Small gen head.  What can I say, I'm an addict!!   :-[
That and the fact I can't resist a bargain, brand new 7 Hp never started for $50 only Missing the pull start and 10 min down the road... YES please!

 I'm looking at a 10KW gen head as well but it's a US model and I'm not sure of compatibility  and it does not have an AVR which may or may not be a good thing. Waiting for advise on that before I go ahead. Also Bought another 4 KW of Panels.  I'll just use those to upgrade some of what I already have. Maybe.

I have enough of these small engines now that if a bigger watercooled comes along I can just sell the little ones off to pay for it.  There is a nice little Kubota 3 Cyl engine for sale but the guy is dreaming in what he wants.  I'll keep making offers and see if he comes around but I get the idea hell probably be one of these types that blames everyone else for not paying the figure he dreamt up.

Look forward to seeing how the project comes along. Lots of pics and updates please!   :laugh:
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: Tanman on February 23, 2019, 04:59:19 AM
One reason I really like the water cooling is the side effect of being able to easily heat water off grid, with that in mind, what type of cooling would be the easiest to harvest hot water off of do you think?
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: glort on February 23, 2019, 06:59:08 AM

If you are looking to either heat Domestic hot water or space heat, I'd still go with a radiator.

For tank heating I'd have the water going out the engine into a Heat exchanger, 20 Plate Flat HE would be ideal and then into the radiator.  Once the tank is up to temp there will be no more cooling so the radiator could ditch waste heat before the coolant went back to the engine. You would probably want a little circulation pump like they use on solar  for the tank water. I believe there are heaters in teh US with a Coil already built in. This would be ideal.

I'd do a similar setup for space heating.
Coolant out the engine to the radiator and then into another radiator before going back to the engine.  You could T it so if the heat wasn't required as in summer the heating loop was bypassed.

These are the FPHE's. They are VERY efficient and reliable.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/20-Plates-Wort-Chiller-Plate-Heat-Exchanger-Stainless-Steel-Brewing-Chiller-Hot/254130751802?hash=item3b2b5f893a:g:NmMAAOSwolpb9jwr:rk:8:pf:0

Whatever you do, please don't frig around with coils of copper pipe. Dunno what the fascination with that is but the efficiency is garbage unless you have a 1000Ft of the stuff.  FPHE would be an infinitely better way to go.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: ajaffa1 on February 24, 2019, 12:04:19 PM
I really wish I could get my hands on an indirect hot water cylinder in Australia. In the UK they are the norm, they are a sealed and insulated unit with one or more electric heater elements in them, some are for mains water pressure and some are for low pressure (gravity fed systems). The most important thing they have going for them is a copper heating coil which is built into the unit, these are usually connected to a gas, oil or solid fuel boiler. It would be so easy to connect one of these to a diesel engine  using a small header tank or expansion bottle, thus the coolant in the engine could run antifreeze without it contaminating the hot water supply, two completely separate systems with an electric heating backup.  A perfect solution if only they were available here.

Bob
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: glort on February 24, 2019, 12:47:12 PM

Back in the Day when there was interest in running Vehicles in veg oil, a mate of mine turned up to one of the get togethers I organized with a water heater he built.  It was made from a Large Gas tank which he shortened.
He had 3" pipe running round in a couple of haphazard loops he welded up and exiting back out the front.
I built him an oil burner which we stuck in one end of the tube and blew a few hundred KW of fire through the thing.  It had about 300L of water in it and scared the ship out of everyone when it suddenly started spraying hot steam and water like a Geyser in about 10 Min after fire up.
It was a VERY efficient bit of gear.

He later modded it and welded a fire box underneath the thing and made the Chimney go through the pipe surrounded by the water.
He used that to circulate that though old fashioned heater panels he had in his house and said he got a lot of heat out of a little wood which I believed.

Perhaps you could make a heater from an old car gas tank?  All it would take would be cut the end off the tank, put in some pipe for the HE and braze in the in/ out and weld the tank back up again.  Wrap the thing in insulation and you are there.

By the same token, If you had a regular water heater and a FPHE with a couple of circ pumps, you could easily do the same thing as an indirect heater. Pump the coolant through one side of the HE and the potable water through the other that circulated through the tank.

I have always wanted to do a Sunken Fire box being a large tank with a smaller one inside so the area where the fire was ( thinking solid fuel) was Completely surrounded by the water jacket and the flue did a couple of lengths before exiting as well.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: 38ac on February 24, 2019, 04:52:36 PM
Nobody that I am aware of is selling the plates, you ha e to make one or have it made. Due to the wide bolt spacing you need at least 3/8 thick steel to prevent leaks and 1/2" is better. Looking down at the plate the inlet and outlet needs to be on opposite corners with the outlet being closest to the head. Having the return pipe extend down past the plate a ways will insure it flows tbe correct way upon first start. I had trouble with mine trying to flow backwards until I modified it. I will add some pics later when I am not using data.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: Tanman on February 26, 2019, 01:50:30 AM
I will add some pics later when I am not using data.

Please do!
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: 38ac on February 27, 2019, 12:39:20 PM
Here are some rather poor pictures of my 1115 15KW stand by set. The radiator, fan and  control switch all came from an automotive application and were about $100 new. I can find  out which one if need be.

The engine and belt driven head are nessled under a stairway  in my work shop.
(http://i64.tinypic.com/oqfukl.jpg)
 
Close up of the shop made plate. Hot water rises in the left nipple and  cooled water returns in the right one. The temp sender is 205F and   controls the radiator fan. There is zero need for a thermostat in these horizontal  applications.  The engine warms up quickly and the fan control keeps the temps constant within tne range of the senders range.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/2nqxylh.jpg)

The fan and radiator set up.  You must provide and tank above tbe radiator with most radiators to ensure that coolant is always over the top hose or it doesnt work.  Certain older radiators made for Thermosyphon operation will have the tank built in.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/10mtnxg.jpg)
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: 38ac on February 27, 2019, 12:42:38 PM
Sorry about the large size pics i neglected to resize them
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: Tanman on February 27, 2019, 02:05:30 PM
Sorry about the large size pics i neglected to resize them

Thank you for posting!
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: Tanman on February 28, 2019, 10:24:52 PM
The crate arrived today! I will be cracking it open tomorrow and putting some pics up. Now I'm going to start looking for a generator head. I'm debating on whether to get a 7.5 or 10kw head. I plan on running it slower that the rated speed 1800rpm for normal operation and would love to run it slower. Would running the engine slow and turning a smaller head make a big difference in fuel consumption vs. the 10kw head?
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: ajaffa1 on February 28, 2019, 11:35:04 PM
I am a big fan of running a generator head that will actually stall your diesel engine. This is because the wire gauge in the larger generator is bigger with better slip rings and brushes. The problem of stalling can be overcome by fitting an appropriately rated micro circuit breaker between the generator and load, this will trip out before your engine stalls.

Economy is determined by the load applied not by the RPM the engine runs at, running it slower will reduce the available output but will also increase the longevity of your setup.

Bob
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: BruceM on March 01, 2019, 12:42:52 AM
The point of lowering engine speed is not fuel economy, it is to match the (smaller) load to engine output, which is especially important for diesel engines, which won't last long on light loads.

I think it's member Veggie who made a very nice setup with dual pulleys so the diesel engine could be better matched to different loads. 
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: glort on March 01, 2019, 01:17:14 AM

As Bruce and Bob have said, Load determines the amount of fuel used not engine speed.
I also like over driving on the engine side as it allows the engine to run a lot quieter as well as reducing wear.

Many people say that you basicaly have to flog a diesel or it will have problems which is just not true. If you look at a myriad of commercial applications from power generation to earth moving and marine, they commonly oversize and under speed engines for this very reason. You don't want to be pulling engines out of buildings when you half have to demolish them to do so the same as with things  like trawlers and tugs etc.

Engines have a power RPM curve which you can see how much power they make at a given rpm.  If you have say a 20 HP motor and are running it at half RPM you might be getting 7.5 HP out of it and it you put a 7 Hp load on the thing, then it is working hard but not flogging itself to death.
The bonus with this is cooling and oil system that are also designed for much more stress are cruising along with loads of reserve as well.

In cases like this it's easy to gear the alternator up so it's spinning where it needs to be while the engine is loping along using it's torque rather than power being a product of speed x torque.  The question then becomes, How much power you want out the thing? If you figure you are only ever going to want  say 5KW, then you can work out what RPM you want the motor spinning to generate that ( or a little more to allow for losses and not over tax it and have it smoking at lower RPM) and use an online pulley calculator to determine the size of the gearing you need.

The dual Pulley idea is a good one for varying outputs. I wonder if it could be taken a step Further?
I watch some  Vids where they use  Constantly variable transmissions for Minibikes and go karts and the like.
I DO NOT know much about them but wonder if one of these could not be used for a generator? They seem to work on  the torque factor so I imagine  they would self regulate to an extent although not be constant speed as it were. A cheap and simple electronic Tach on the gen head would allow you to  regulate the engine speed to get where you wanted to be.
generally these are fitted large pulley on the engine and small on the driven which is opposite what you might want so whether they could be reversed or not I don't know.

Just throwing it out there if anyone was interested in looking the things up and seeing what could be done. Often it's possible to take the tech from another application and apply it to one which it was not designed in mind for but works well anyway.

Whatever you do you might want to think about your loads so you can crunch some numbers and see if you can find an output table for the engine so you can work out how to drive the thing for what you want and flat out.

The other thing coming back to economy is how are you planning on fueling the thing? Diesel or Veg/ WMO?
Which ever one you are thinking, I'd be looking at setting up a simple drip water injection system.  If you had that you could have the engine lightly loaded and not have any problems because the WI will take away all the possible buildups and keep the engine clean which is why you have to work them in the first place.  If you are going to run Diesel, I'd suggest adding an amount, 5% or so veg oil or some 2 stroke.
Diesel has very little Lubricity these days and while the engine is oiled in the sump, the fuel side of the IP and the injector is not.

Even 5% Veg or 100:1 2 stroke increases the Lubricity of the fuel off the chart that is floating around on the net somewhere.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: 38ac on March 01, 2019, 11:17:31 AM
You can absolutely throttle the engine back. Under light loadings it will save a bit of fuel but the bigger issue is noise.  A 1115 up against the stops is one obnoxious sob.  My set up runs just under 1800 rpm. The larger ones like the 1115 are equipped with balance shafts and you should keep the RPM above the gear rattle stage.  Also keep in mind that the injection timing is set for factory RPM thus long hours at heavy  loadings and reduced RPM would benefit from retarding  the timing a bit.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: Willw on March 01, 2019, 01:36:40 PM
Hello all, can anyone please measure the diameter of the 1115 flywheel?

Has anyone tried driving the gen-head off the engine flywheel rim like we do with the Listeroids?

I am trying to get a rough idea of the size pulley that would be needed for the alternator in order to reduce engine operating RPM.

I don't have a Chinese horizontal yet, but I've been drooling over the 1130's on Alibaba.com and I hope to have two along with some spares by the time my birthday rolls around.

I figure I could reduce the RPM on that monster and still run most anything in the house.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: Tanman on March 02, 2019, 05:27:19 PM
So I'm still stuck between a 7.5kw and 10kw head, either one would be plenty of power for me. If they are both rated at their respective power at 1800rpm, would it be better to pony up for the 10kw and run it at 1400-1500rpm (with WI and timing adjustment) if my main goal for this build is longevity? Also, here are some pics of the engine fresh out of the crate and mounted to a dolly for working on and moving around.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: 38ac on March 02, 2019, 06:20:21 PM
I run a 15KW on mine.  Don't need that many and the engine wouldn't pull it if I did. The extra capacity does two things for you. It helps start motor loads such as water pumps or A/C units and you have more amps available to either 110 volt branch circuit when wired for 220 operation which saves on load management.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: mike90045 on March 02, 2019, 09:15:50 PM
At some point, windage looses from the huge fan in the 20kw head becomes more of a load then your electrical.   I'd only go up 1 size from your engine
 I've a 6/1 which pairs to a 3Kw, but I went with a 5kw, to be able to manage unbalanced loads a bit better, and not run the windings smoking hot.   If I went to a 7.5kw it would still generate the 3kw my engine can produce, but now I'm running a bigger fan, moving more air, and maybe the engine can only pull 2.7kw
 I'm just pulling number out of the sky here, but the alternator cooling fan is NOT a negligible load, I think 1 step up is enough unless you have a special need.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: Tanman on March 03, 2019, 04:26:48 AM
Any recommendations on ST head suppliers? Also, 38AC where did you get your pulley for the st side of your 1115 setup?
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: 38ac on March 03, 2019, 01:05:08 PM
I purchase bits like that on ebay, seems there is always somebody on there with my needs for give away prices. Figure out what diameter you need and how many grooves, and include QD bushing in your search. Then search for a bushing by type, SD,SH etc, and by your shaft size in MM.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: 38ac on March 03, 2019, 01:11:09 PM
Mike , you may be right a out the fan but my gut tells me different.  The fan on my st15 is it only 2" larger than my st5. I suspect that the power requirement at 1800 RPM is fractional. Again, nothing but my intuition with no facts to back it up.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: Tanman on April 28, 2019, 11:09:48 PM
She ran today! After struggling to take the fuel pump apart, I soaked it in diesel for 2 days, put on a thick glove and smashed it against a 2x4. It finally came loose after about 6 hits. I cleaned it, reassembled and the engine ran. The only problem was it wouldn’t turn off or idle down, so I shut off the fuel and it slowly wound down and died. I removed the pump again to try and figure it out but I am stumped. It seems that there is just very little control over the amount of fuel being pumped. I’m not sure if I need to adjust the ring with teeth on the inside of the pump or if it is defective.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: glort on April 29, 2019, 06:47:57 AM

the pumps on the smaller engines anyway have a  cam or a pin on the pump and a slotted tab in the engine it engages.
If you don't ine them up, which is easy to do, you have no throttle control.

First one I did was a China Vertical cyl Diesel and the Pump was at max Fuelling. . Thing was blowing flames like a top fueler out the Muffler and went nuts. How I didn't blow it to pieces is testament to the way these things are built. I stopped it with the Decompression lever  and then removed the pump and figured my error.

Take the pump off again and look in the hole and wiggle the throttle. You will see something that engages with something else on the pump. Line them up and you should be able to feel the difference in the resistance. While since I have done one and never that size engine but they are all about the same and i'd be sure you have missed the internal linkage somewhere.

I have done a few gummed pumps but never one as hard to get apart as you describe. They are all so simple you can figure the things out by just looking at them.  Also very robust so you can run them on anything and they will digest it happily.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: old seagull man on April 29, 2019, 07:32:28 AM
Have you the parts, instruction  manual that came with your engine there is an exploded view of the pump in it.
Thats how i did mine. if not im shore i have a pdf of the 1115 engine somewhere. just let me kn ow.  Ok.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: Tanman on May 11, 2019, 10:40:34 PM
So I figured out the issue. There are many ways the notched part of the pump with the small teeth all around is fit into the pump, one common way is for the notches to be horizontal, the other is the have them vertical. Mine needed the notches to be vertical and for the plunger (inner piece with the diagonal cut across it) to have the cut section facing up. I had to try it in every common combination to find the correct configuration, because the manual states what order the pump goes together but not which way the plunger is supposed to be rotated to begin with. No problems now  ;D
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: ajaffa1 on May 12, 2019, 12:12:33 AM
Well done Tanman, the application of a little brain power usually sorts these things out. I recently rebuilt a Bosch injector pump, the original parts all had witness marks to show the correct alignment. The service kit that I purchased from Bosch had none, bugger of a job counting teeth and etc to get it back together right.

Bob
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: glort on May 12, 2019, 10:59:20 AM
The service kit that I purchased from Bosch had none, bugger of a job counting teeth and etc to get it back together right.


Probably made in China or India and put in a Bosch box.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: Tanman on May 13, 2019, 01:14:12 PM
So now that the engine is running correctly, I'm going to turn my attention to building a frame, acquiring a gen head, and getting other accessories like a pulley. The frame and genny are pretty straight forward. I am a little confused on pulleys. I'm going with the same size and grooves as the the one that came stock on the engine based on Mr. Calder's advice. But are the shafts on the gen heads and the pulley's that go on them pretty universal on size and design? I've never done anything with pulleys and belts besides accessories on cars like alternators and they come with pulleys.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: Tanman on July 19, 2019, 03:12:12 PM
Question: how bad are the bearings and bushings on these engines, should I replace some of them ahead of time to save me heartake down the road? I just read an article about these self destructing predictably at around 1000 hours do to bearing failures.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: 38ac on July 19, 2019, 08:46:59 PM
It is impossible to say that the bearings need replaced or not or at what hours due to the fact there are huge quality differences brand to brand. The bearings that gave the most trouble are the balance shafts.  If you are bothered with it take the engine down and replace them with quality bearings.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: Tanman on July 19, 2019, 09:28:06 PM
Thanks 38AC, I must be getting cold feet with the project lol, wondering if the thing is going to explode in my face after some moderate use and if I should have started with a listeroid instead for this project. I think I read somewhere that you had a machine of the same brand? Jiang Dong, if so, how has your experience been with that machine?
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: 38ac on July 20, 2019, 01:57:24 AM
The best 195 I ever had my hands on was a Jiang Dong.  Now of you want to lay your hands on the Cadilac that would be the LaiDong 1115. I was lucky enough to get one from John Ferguson before he sold out to Jim Calder, it is in storage while my stand by set is powered by the Changfa clone.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: Tanman on August 11, 2019, 12:16:54 AM
The next step in the project has just taken place. I scored an 8kw genuine Stamford for $200 with a frame and v-belt pulley with it!
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: BruceM on August 11, 2019, 01:35:13 AM
Sweet deal, and a predictably good generator head.
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: Tanman on August 12, 2019, 06:03:43 PM
Another aspect of the project I have been kicking around is tapping the oil pan and running a DC electric pump to circulate the oil through an oil filter and then back into the pan. I imagine the pros are 1. lower pressure compared to the factory oil lines, opens up the possibility to use more standard parts that don't need a super high pressure rating and 2. You don't mess with the factory oil lines and system at all. Downsides: 2 holes in my oil pan?
Title: Re: 1115 build
Post by: Tanman on October 20, 2019, 11:28:01 PM
Had some time this weekend and made a lot of progress on the project.