Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: mobile_bob on August 02, 2006, 09:53:04 PM
-
it appears there are at least 4 camps relating to this question
1. those that intend to work these engines hard, and see them as a means to an end.
2. those that like to play with mechanical stuff, experiment, reegineer, and can't stand to leave as is.
3. those that just want to have a backup power source
4. those that just want an unusual engine to paint pretty and show.
5. install your reason here
it occurs to me that once i stepped back and thought about all the various motives behind having or getting a listeroid, it becomes apparent why some topics are so heated in debate.
to me getting an understanding of each of you in this regard, makes it easier to accept your position on different topics.
i will start off with my answer,
i bought the listeroid to be a source of power and hot water, running 2 hours out of every 24, dependably! without having to reengineer the damn thing. blue print? yes.. reengineer? no!
now that is just me, and i know i may come off as a bit wierd, but i have overhauled too many diesels over the last 31 years to want to reinvent anything i don't have to.. but again that is just me.
if i stop to think about it i can rationalize each of the other 4 positions,,, problem is that after a hard day making shit run or keeping it running for other folks, with a bad back and carpel tunnel in both hands, i don't stop to think that others might have other priorities.
so please, take a minute and pick a position, let everyone know your viewpoint on your listeroid, or if you are one of the lucky few a genuine lister.
bob g
-
Original Lister start-o-matic
As shipchief said, want an engine room, but there is more to it.
It is going to work for a living as soon as we move, fuel costs are high and getting higher, thinking about DC storage and inverters too to run all my computers.
-
dependable backup power with less noise level, and diesel stores longer than gas. Think Houston and hurricanes.
-
Lister SOM - now sitting in my Garage.
I live in the country, and power can be a problem. During the ice storm, the house I now live in was without power in the middle of the cold Canadian winter for 2 weeks. During the great blackout it was without power for over 1 week. I don't want to run everything in the house... but I would like water (by pump) my sump pump to work and some lights and the fan in my gas stove.
Everyone here told me all the horror stories. The Coleman gensets lasted 12 horus or so in the cold, the Hondas are good but are limited too in fulltime work. The Geniac Natural gas units sold by Home Depot were designed for the states, and not the cold of Canada so many did not start. I started looking at Listeroids, then got an oppertunity to get an original. Mine will be tarted up for looks (JohnDeer Green and Yellow) and will be put to work.
I figure they got it right years ago, I just want it to work when I ask it too.
-
12/1 Listeroid
#1 and #3 for sure, North Central Fl. #2 to some extent, love to play with it, experiment but can leave it as it is (after making sure nothings going to break).
Would need to add some things to accomodate some medical/physical problems I have. Electric starter for one. ?Full flow pressure lubrication? Input physical work now to save mind bending pain later in the middle of the storm.
Experiment with alternative fuels out of pure cussedness. Would like to get it to run as Rudolph intended (whichever fuel is cheapest and easiest to get).
Also as a test bed for ideas, start with a known good design and work up for different end applications.
-
O.K. Mr. Global Moderator - gotcha beat by 9 days! We were out of power for 23 days after the ice storm. As you noted, being in the Country in Canada has its "challenges" as far as reliable power supply is concerned. I vowed it would never happen again but it took a few years (and a few more power outages) to figure out the solution. I cut my umbilical cord to the Provincial power grid last week and I am now totally dependant on my Listeroids, both for power and battery charging. So I guess the answer to Mobile Bob's question has to be #1 - my engines work hard and I view them as tools. As such I'm not much interested in the "roller rocker" discussion nor in other people's interminable and increasingly ludicrous suggestions as to how a Listeroid can be "improved". Mine work well in their original configuration, thank you. The problem with a lot of people on this list is plain overthinking. Yes, I have to do some tweaking, but where would the fun be if I didn't? The extent of my improvements will llikely be the addition of starters (already done) bypass oil filters and the regualr changing of "wear parts". I am in the fortunate position of being able to have spare engines on hand but quite frankly, if anyone is interested in the same scenario as me - total indepence - then that is an expense that is necessary to bear. Last thing I need is my dearly beloved looking daggers at me because a light won't come on when she flicks the switch!
Last thing - I do run on Waste Veggie oil 99% of the time - stop and start on BioDiesel.
Happily independent,
-
I wanted reliable back up power. In addition, I want to work the engine hard as I have thousands of gallons of waste fuel. So the answer is two fold.
Chris
-
This time next year I will be homesteading land i own Down River on the Salmon, 55 miles from Salmon, Idaho and 35 miles from power poles. The Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness is out the back door and the Selway-Bitterroot wilderness is out the side door. Together there is over 3 million acres of roadless area, the largest roadless area in the lower 48.
I needed engines that are efficient,simple,cheap, quite, and sound good. Living in a river canyon there will be two months in winter with no direct sun, because of the high canyon walls. The listeroids will be generating and battery charging. I'll also use some solar. I can't wait!!
-
#1, a reliable power source for a sawmill I am still building. Have a 21 KV line going right past my house, so I could have run a line to it, but didn't want to trench and lay several hundred feet of underground cable. Already have a 12 kw st gen head run off a Detroit Diesel 3-71, but it makes too much noise, and the little Honda generator does too, plus I wanted a diesel.
-
My interest is in a backup power source. We live in a rural area in central MN, extended power outages are possible, ice, snow, etc. I was also interested in a power source that I could work on and maintain, just in case the world really does go down the tubes.
I am also interested in alternative fuels. An oil press is on my wish list, and I hope to plant some canola next year.
Oh yeah, I received a 6/1 GM-90 from Mike about 5 weeks ago. Unfortunately my generator head is still someplace between here and Texas.
-
Dependable backup power source here. Think Hurricane Katrina. We got power back on in two weeks, and we were ahead of LOTS of homes.
-
If you see one, hear one run, have any respect for engines, you gotta have one period. I have grid power where I am but justified getting one by deciding that I could power the barn for now. The overhead lines were taken out about 12 yrs ago. The final resting (running) place will be in the Gila nat'l forest, I have grid power on the property but if you watch the wild fires out west there is a need for backup power.If that is not a good rational for a listeroid then a got one cuz I could and have a good source for wvo.
Rick
-
When its late at night and I'm at work with nothing to do I watch the metering on the main incoming feed. Its not a prety sight anymore I see dips and transients that only a few years ago didn't happen. Our utility system is under duress. I sat out a storm two weeks ago un the dark for 5 hours this never happened in this part of Ontario, at least not every summer. And thanks to climate change ( or insert other reason for wacky weather ) we get blistering geat up here now, brown Christmases ( and the possibility of ice stroms that come with it), and believe or not tornadoes ( never had a tonado here in my lifetime unitll two weeks ago ).
So I think everyone should have generator, 20 gallons of reserve fuel a couple of weeks of dried goods and canned food, potable water on hand or well as in my case. The Petteroid holds the promiss of standby power and a , little heat scavenged from the cooling system in a package that easy to repair on the spot....
Doug
-
I am getting ready to buy a 20/2 - It will start out it's long life as the primary "grunt" power for an off-grid construction project. I will run it outdoors with the skid bedded in sand and chained down to ground anchors to prevent walking (and with a jury rigged cooling system)... It will be mixing concrete, compressing air, and running power tools (circular saw, rebar cutter etc.) during break in. The energy produced will go into building its permanent (we all hope) home. The first job it will have will be to mix a few yards of concrete to pour the permanent engine mount blocks and vibration isolated slab floor (you can't machine stuff accurately if your floor is vibrating). Once the engine house is roughed in I will lift it with the backhoe/grader, and get it through the door... Another lift with an overhead equipment hoist, and set it onto the mount... Grout and bolt it down securely.
I actually see the need for a second engine of lower HP to serve as a backup and for light duty... The engine house is being designed with room to tear engines down (full walk around access with raised engine & equipment mounts placed down the center line of the room) and a hoist system on I-beams to move things like engines, cylinders, flywheels, genheads, compressor heads, cranks, etc. off the mounts and onto workbenches. I will put workbenches down one side with big windows, and on the other side I will have shelves for a battery bank, power cabinets, inverters, storage. I will have a few solar panels on the roof, but the horsepower for this homestead is going to come from slow speed diesels that can be overhauled in place, burn multiple fuels, and hopefully share parts. This way I can tear an engine down and overhaul while a second engine is supplying power for grinders, parts washer, you know the drill ;)
The second phase is to put up a connecting shop/laboratory/storage building (moderate sized pole barn with straw bale walls, the engine house will be cinderblock)...
Give me a few years, I will use that 20/2 to mix concrete for the foundation of my house.
I am going to try to buy an abandoned jojoba plantation to set this up on. Jojoba is a wild "oilseed" (really it contains no oil, the seed is 50% by weight a non-edible liquid wax, no glycerides, no fatty acids)... In the 1990's agri-investors took many hectacres out of cotton production in the Southwest US as the water table dropped and tried cultivating native jojoba on a commerical scale. Jojoba grows in the desert wasteland without irrigation but there were a number of problems: the payback time on plantations takes 20-30 years, they seeded wild varieties with uneven yields and requirements, then they hit a couple of bad frosts back to back that killed the young plants... Today there are thousands of acres of abandoned plantations that have mature plants established, but the nuts produced per acre will not support commerical harvesting. These plantations can be rehabilitated by tearing out the male plants (which produce no seeds) and the low yeilding female plants and gradually replacing them with clones developed by the University of Arizona.
Burning oil in a slow speed diesel is a lot cheaper than solar panels... And this oil comes from the sun without irrigation in what is now considered waste land which can be bought as low as $50 an acre. I may have to haul water, but most of this land had wells, tho they no longer produce enough water to support cotton.
I love to tinker and build things... Best to work on my own engines rather than someone elses ;) I also have a high energy physics lab in storage... I have patents I need to work on, prototype equipment I need to build, test, and run... And I need 6+ kilowatts of flywheel delivered electrical energy to do that work.
http://www.nic.funet.fi/pub/sci/electrical/tesla/pictures/rq/rq_a800.gif
I am shooting for it all. Besides, this gives me an excuse to run a big, cool, engine (two actually) ;D
http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=808.0 <-- But it starts here, a backhoe, rebar, and a few yards of cement, sand, and gravel... And I am not mixing it in a wheelbarrow!!!!
-
hmmmm, fascinating responces so far.
actually a bit surprising, tell ya why later
bob g
-
My 6/1 is the primary power for my off grid homestead under construction. Pumps water, runs washer, occasional power tool or heat lamps in the shop, runs air compressor for air powered shop, charges batteries. 6/1 because less is more for a disabled bachelor and my all air shop lets me get away with it by having a big (500 gallon) air tank and some occasional patience.
The Lister(oid) because of slow speed; even 1800 rpm gensets bother my epilepsy badly (sound) and the Lister is very pleasant.
Bruce M
-
I needed an inexpensive to run alternative to 30Kw 24/7 and the Listeroid caught my eye. To use something to generate electricity off-grid and dependant on what *I* could fix with what I had, the Lister seemed a good teaching platform. IT HAS BEEN. And I mean that in a very positive way.
Now that I know what's needed in the 'cloning', care and feeding of a full time power plant, I'm going to phase II of the Magic Hot Springs power grid with a properly mounted and prepared engine for the long haul. I'm predicting a Phase I retirement at about 7500 hours. It'll be interesting to see the wear patterns.
I've been thinking about all the changes in the original Lister CS to it's final form.....Indian 'maybe' to 'utter reliability' is still not THAT big a step to take for something that's not built 'right' anymore. So what if the crank needs ground and the rod needs bushed to make it square....let's concentrate on how to make the castings worthy of the work we put in the rest of it. This is a good place for aftermarket goos that seal, straighten, lock and adjust out of whack basic machine set-ups. LocTite has anything that's needed. I'm convinced the 'big, heavy, stout, stable, and low stress' desiel is the way to go.....and the imports are WELL worth what's paid for them.
-
Why did I buy a listeroid?
The reason I told my wife? It will make a reliable and quiet back-up power supply for our place at the coast that loses power on a regular basis.
The real reason? It's cool and different with the flywheels and hand crank. Plus I enjoy working on diesel engines (a CPA by trade, but really a frustrated engineer) - Rebuilt a 1959 Mercedes 190D with my grandfather the summer I was 16, and 20 some years later, I just got the oil out from under my fingernails from changing a timing belt on my VW diesel two weeks ago. I could pay someone to ship me a diesel generator on a skid ready to go, but where is the fun in that?
This will be an opportunity to have another "toy" to play with that can be put to good use.
Timbo
-
While I can come up with any number of reasons the only one that really counts is.
I wanted one.
Ended up with two .
..... so far. :)
Got an Allis Chalmers WC looks like this one but missing the motor, sheet metal, gas tank, and radiator.
http://www.tractorshed.com/contents/tpic109.htm
Been thinking a 20/2 sitting on there crossmotor style would be neat.
And when you think some people spend as much on cigarettes and booze, it does not really take any justification, whose habit is going to kill them first.
-
i see a pattern developing here, with one thing strangely absent
anyone know what it is?
bob g
-
2 reasons:
1. I bought my Listeroid to net meter in CT (#1 to work it hard). My state allows me to sell excess electricity back to the grid, I can interconnect with up to 100kw system. The fuel must be renewable which vegi oil is and is specifically mentioned in the statute. Better yet the state offers grants up to $500 per kw for such a system. Originally my idea was to “zero” out my bill but after running the numbers there is the potential to receive a check from the utility every month. The only limiting factor is the quantity of fuel I can obtain and process.
2. I like a challenge. (#5 other) The challenge I envisioned was taming such a beast without having any formal mechanic type training. I am in finance; the most complicated engine related task I have done is change my own oil on my car. I was ready to buy a listeroid from Powersolutions on the west coast, but then this whole EPA issue reared its ugly head. This was an unexpected challenge. So I started to read everything I could about the regs pertaining to stationary diesel engines…long story short I brought a load and I picked up/ delivered the engines last Friday 7.27.06 Any time someone tells me that something I want do do “can’t be done” I see that as a challenge and the wheels start turning. A great example of this is the thought that you need to pour a ton of concrete as a base for a listeroid vs. bolt a frame to a slab. I will post more about mounting in that thread
Scott
-
My story starts out about two hours after Rita hit land with 14 evacuees in my home besides my family. I lost power for 11 days. I thought I was ready for it with 2 gas burners and 70 gallons of gas. Guess what. I was pulling the flywheel on one in 100 mph winds so we could flush toilets. Not fun. Started looking for anything better and came across this site. Now I consider my self a young man at 37 and pretty successful for my up bringing. One thing my father taught me was that if a man built it I could fix it or build it if I put my head into it. I had lots of people tell my I was crazy but there was one thing I started to realize, they were all non do it yourselfers. They all hauled every thing somewhere to get it fixed or bought a new one. I read this site, investigated, learned and built one of the best generators I could ever have. But the best part of the whole thing is I have a 12 year old son that has turned every bolt, welded on, cranked and learned this engine right by my side every step of the way. I am proud of my creation but when your son brings his friends home to see HIS engine it is all worth it.
I built this engine/generator set for back up power but as you can see it turned into so much more.
-
Okay, mobile_bob, I'll be the first to bite. What's missing?
-
If I had to guess... One thing that is missing is (#4) - There are no people here talking about slick paint jobs (tho there are some I am sure)...
Nobody is talking about appearances.
-
Dave:
i wanted to wait and see how the mix panned out,, i have to admit i on one and a bit shocked, and on the other hand
shocked that i am shocked! :)
the way things were going on a particular thread, i was beginning to wonder about the mix of thinking in regard to the purchase of a listeroid.
it made me wonder perhaps i am all wet, and too narrow in my focus.
i was beginning to think that perhaps there was a strong contengent of folks that purchased these engines, to reengineer them.
or as a test bed to prove out their capability to reinvent the engine.
once i started to think down those lines it became apparent to me, what motivates those type of individuals. Then it became easier to cope with the wierd (to me)progression of ideas.
so i decided to stop and rethink things a bit. Realizing that everyone has different motives, thoughts and goals, made trying to have a dialog easier for me.
until i got a grasp of this concept, quite frankly the discussion became very tedious and frustrating.
then i thought,,, "oh ok,,, if that is what you look to the listeroid for, is a test bed for engineering idea's, fine! i can accept that"
the next thought came to mind, ... "wait a minute,,,, how many folks are in that camp?" "and who are they?"
i figured it would be far easier to discuss idea's if you i knew the motivation.
so far there seems to be an overwhelming majority of folks that want to use the engines as supplied to do useful work, without
having to reinvent the damn things.
as an example if mr. X, is an engineer, that wants a test engine to work out different idea's he has, develop for instance roller tips etc... then fine... i can understand that, and can have a constructive dialog with the guy. or.....
if mr. Y, wants an engine to provide power and useful work, and i know that up front, then the dialog goes a different direction,
and i can follow that... that cool...
problem is,,, when you have a mix of X's and Y's and don't know from adam where they are coming from you get a pretty wierd thread going, with those in X's camp going one direction and those in Y's camp going the other, and neither side understanding why, or worse yet looking at each other like the other side is nuts.
i guess the surprise to me after following some of the threads, was the apparent low number of Mr. X's, and a very high number of Mr. Y's that have stepped forward to answer this thread.
so far i havent seen any that got their engines for the purpose of reengineering them.
don't get me wrong,,, i am equally at ease with either line of thinking,,, just wanted to know which direction we were going and what the goals are.
hopefully that makes sense.
bob g
-
bottom line is i think both X's and Y's can get along far easier if they know which side of the fence the other guy is on.
maybe thats why there were red coats and blue coats in the revolution :), without the colors we would have been shooting our own guys!
bob g
-
bob g - makes sense. I am an engineer(retired), but my Lister has no hint of any digital circuitry on it, and I like it that way. My needs are mundane, start on demand, run all night without needing constant attention, quiet, and easy fuel storage. Sounds like a slow speed diesel to me. I found this old Lister ST2 for next to nothing, if it takes several hundred to get it running again then I'm still money ahead and will have the fun of learning something new. The ST head looks good, but I may have to fix the output to make it cleaner. And maybe a remote digital monitoring station...wait. What am I saying. This may lead to more than I thought. Oh well, maybe I need to rethink which of those items I should have checked off on your list.
-
LMAO :D :D
Look at the big picture bob and don't try to box people into divisions. People defect, cross over to the other side!!! Are they traitors? :P
I have been reading here quietly about 12-15 hours a day catching up. I have a huge project in front of me and I don't want to make simple mistakes out of ignorance. I chose this engine, despite all its faults, because other people see room for improvement... And the price is right.
For instance:
I used to trick build small, high performance 2-cycle gasoline engines for racing and high-speed pleasure.... Chain saw motor go-carts, then reed valve modified Vespa's with cut cranks and all the bells and whistles inside the stock case. Go zoooom!!!!
My experience at the home school where hard knocks (literally) are the teacher has shown me that in high performance engines there is rarely too much lubricant applied, or applied correctly. When my machines failed, it was because the lubrication did not match output HP over time, or I used the wrong type of lubricants, or I used the correct type of lubricants the wrong way.
But Listeriod mission critical applications are not about speed and "high" performance.... I am not seeking to boost RPM, horsepower, or output... These applications require long, long, long run times between routine service and the type of failures you _want_ to see are the ones where you were warned weeks beforehand... Growling bearings, rattling linkage, seeping gaskets... Not catastrophic meltdowns and train wrecks (yet due to poor quality in some parts, life happens).
Not long ago as the threads fly, Shipchief identified a critical lubrication issue with his discovery of a dry injector cam in his twin. He stated that under the cover his lobes were bone dry, there was no oil supply, and there was _rust_ present inside a section of the closed cam works.
Don't think for an instant I am not going to look at this critically and carefully (with my best eye) seeking to re-engineer a better solution if I see the same problem. Shipchief made a modification, he drilled holes and plumbed oil to the dry working point. I will likely do the same with my twin as soon as I can. This is a form of re-engineering, correcting a defect or strengthening a weak spot. Once a suitable modification is made, if it proves effective (and Shipchief nailed the best solution imo)... You have less to worry, and if steps like this are taken routinely, you have less failure.
These engines are inexpensive... You can buy 2-3 (or more) for the price of a real high quality small diesel that specs out in every aspect. The balancing factor is that the quality engine will still wear, and eventually wear out, and some of them will still break down (less often of course because the parts are better)... And it will cost a pantload more to fix.
Clean and properly lubricated, and despite minor manufacturing flaws, these engines should basically start up and break in OK. (I know there are lemons which should be excluded, these are the result of major, not minor flaws).. They require a pre-break in checkup and adjustment, they may require service after break in. In the meantime they perform a lot of useful work, and afterwards they will perform a lot more useful work. I may reengineer minor flaws in the production, say shoot oil to a dry cam lobe... But I am not going to redesign engines...
I just make them do whatever it is they are supposed to do, better.
A well designed engine does not need re-designing... A poorly engineered design may need corrective engineering.
Also remember that people get brain storms (or attacks, it is hard to tell them apart sometimes kyradawg :D ) and they toss out ideas that are basically not practical from a design or engineering standpoint... They may carry out their ideas... People will comment... But people who tightrope walk across big canyons and waterfalls for a hobby rarely lead a large crowd of followers.
8)
P.S. I fell in love with a tugboat engine once at a show... It would make a killer off-grid power supply and I would never need to do more than just idle the durned thing... But I would still need a Listeroid driven air compressor to get it started. ::)
-
"Look at the big picture bob and don't try to box people into divisions"
believe me i have no intention of boxing in anyone, just trying to get a feel what the idividual priorities might be as it relates to a particular thread.
for instance if the question is about a particular part, and when faced with spending a few hours, working out the design, math, geometry or whatever, knowing up
front what the person is looking for is alot of help.
i didnt want to pick on a particular thread, but here goes
i mistook what the overall idea was, i thought the problem was one of geometry
as it went it mutated to one of design or implimentation of another design.
if i would have understood what the thread was after, why would i spend a couple hours plotting geometry for the
original part, when it was an alternate design(with a differing geometry) that was requested.
i am all for all the boxes you can think of,, just label them so i and others know whats in them.
and you will probably find most of us rummaging thru all of them.
make sense?
bob g
-
if i would have understood what the thread was after, why would i spend a couple hours plotting geometry for the original part, when it was an alternate design(with a differing geometry) that was requested.
That's easy... Just ask before wasting time if your time would be wasted ;)
But this is a very good thread, and I am glad you started it regardless of the reason. Not a waste of time :)
-
Hey Mobile_Bob,
It is certainly not my intent to change the Lister design just for the sake of changing it.
rtqii said "A poorly engineered design may need corrective engineering" AND to that I want to add that a poorly constructed engine may need creative fixes.
If you are thinking about my roller rocker thread, sorry to cause you any giref at all. Really just looking for a way to fix my obvious problems.
I am sure I will find other long term problems with the design and construction after many long hours of use. In my mind, those too will require creative fixes.
It may very well be that I should strive to make the engine as original as possible. Meaning, I should chrome plate the bore, change cylinder heads until the rockers line up, find the proper spec for valve materials, and valve guides, etc. However, I don't know I could pull it off.
Chris
Chris
-
Chris:
no apologies needed here, :)
actually i thought your thread was very interesting, and i got a lot out of it, and hope others did too.
i just failed to understand the rather changing priorities of an individual or two, thats all, and had i not had this
terrible cold all week i probably would have been able to roll with it better.
as far and making needed changes and having to engineer those, that cool, it is inevitable that will happen for various reasons.
what i was trying to differntiate, was engineering fixes from those that look at the engine as a engineering plaything so to speak.
sort of like, before uncrating the engine, having a list of things one wants to reengineer for his own amusement.
hmmmm... yes i wanna develope a tuned exhaust, a tuned intake,,,, try different cam profiles, install hyd lifters,
turbo charge, run nitromethane,,,, etc..
all of which is just fine by me,,,, save maybe the nitro one :), to each his own,,, and i am all for experimentation, and learning or entertaining oneself.
i just think that sets the two groups apart, and makes it hard to follow some discussions without knowing if you are a guy that reengineers out of necessity to get the engine running reliably or conversely a guy that is going to reegineer every last part of the engine, as a learning tool or entertainment.
is the discussion based on practical or theoretical? that sort of thing.
as you know i was opposed to the idea of a roller tipped rocker, because i could see no need for it, initially....
only after things progressed, did it become apparent to me, that two other things were boiling to the top....
one was a need to reengineer because the rocker was so poorly made, and likely could not be fixed...
the other was a need to reegineer the rocker for no other apparent reason than it would be a learning/entertaining/cool thing
as you know even i came around to the idea, for the stated reasons, and offered idea's and help in developing a roller tipped rocker.
and i said if it was going to be done, lets do it right, but... that only came after concluding that there are those that want to reengineer.. and
that is ok on its own merit.
so you end up with basically three positions, all mixed in,,, some trying to arrive at a fix, some trying to reengineer, and some inbetween...
and the rest scratchin their heads wondering WTF
actually thinking about it now, it gets a bit funny.
this thread i hope has been constructive in that it keeps dialog open, and gives all of us a chance to understand each others priorities even tho
these may change as need arises.
thank you everyone for takng the time to respond.
be interesting to all get together for a convention some year.
i could just hear the debates now :)
bob g
-
i could just hear the debates now :)
this is why gentleman collectors are always bastards.
because their shit doesn't have to work for a living it makes room for all sorts of pointless arguments.
if shit has to work for a living you end up with a consensus, force kyrdawn, at gun point, to get 20,000 hours out of a listeroid in the next 4 years and his attitude will change pronto, even if he has an unlimited budget, and he'll spend the last 3 months of slack time making everything Lister and the remaining 2.5 years praying he made it Lister enough and wishing he hadn't spend the first year and a bit dicking around with pie in the sky ideas.
=======================
There is a great leveller in the classic motorcycle field, the Ministry of Transport road worthiness test, add the requirement for minimum 5k miles a year and you just eliminated ALL the gentleman collectors.... did I say they are all bastards?
-
Guy:
why don't you just tell us how ya really feel about gentlemen collectors??
:)
bob g
-
this is why gentleman collectors are always bastards.
because their shit doesn't have to work for a living it makes room for all sorts of pointless arguments.
So .... are you a gentleman collector or is your SOM working for a living?
jim
-
I want one to charge batteries in a off grid site running every other day to top off battery state of charge.
Being that it will be my sole supply of power I am willing to make any modifications that will increase fuel economy and reduce mechanical failures before depending upon it. I am also very demanding of perfection and take pride in the fact that my surroundings reflect it.
I see everything as a plaything including a listeriod and the world as my playground, at the same time I am as serious as a heart attack about insuring the integrity/power of my home. If I am amused while performing any modifications deemed necessary, my life experiance will be that much more fufilled.
Best wishes
-
this is why gentleman collectors are always bastards.
because their shit doesn't have to work for a living it makes room for all sorts of pointless arguments.
So .... are you a gentleman collector or is your SOM working for a living?
jim
It will be in about 4 weeks time, I was NEVER a gentleman collector, no interest at all in "showing" it.
-
We live off grid in AZ (near BruceM as it turns out!) and even though there are power poles 1/2 mile away we don't want to ever hook up to them. We don't trust that things will always "be as they are" and also not too sure we will be able to afford grid power in our older years the way things are heading.
When I found Listeriods discussed on the 'net and showed my husband what I had found, we got excited about them.
Simple for non gear-heads to work on, reliable if prepared properly (thanks GeorgeB), and not subject to an endless modern supply stream to work the rest of our lives, we could not NOT get one!
We will be able to irrigate all we need with our 6/1 running for the most part on wvo, we will be able to recharge batteries on the cheap, and even run without batteries if TSHTF on the WVO and diesel we have on hand for many years. Makes me feel very safe and secure indeed. As to changes, well not too many. I don't really mind starting and stopping it, I do that now with a gas screamer. We do want to put some safety shutdown features on so as not to ruin it should a problem develope while we are not standing over it.
I am so happy to have that 6/1! ;D
maddy
-
Hi this is something I have been wanting to do for some time.
If I run across a late model Blackstone diesel I will pick it up too! They are not as easy to find as the 'roid.
Running wvo will save me some $ too if I run it long enough.!
Dennis
-
Why I hope to have a 6/1 listeroid in the next 30 days:
Because I am still searching for the hobby that remains a hobby.
Sadly, the Listeroid project won't do that, but it's a step in the right direction, especially if it gets much more expensive than it should, doesn't work as well as it should, or takes 10X more time than it should. If the hobby pays, then it's a job. I'm shooting for this one to break even. If it starts chewing up too much money, then I just won't operate it, and keep it around for a secondary use. In the mean time, it will be a really nice low tech distraction away from the high tech world of internetworking, being a router-rat, ISP duties, and keeping a building full of servers running.
Primary use:
I have a data center that has a large, fast start high speed diesel generator, some gas turbines, and 2 weeks of fuel stored on site. (3N generation capabilities, 2N fuel stores, 3N day tanks... Overkill? Yes.) I have a need for medium temp heat, a need for multiple system isolation (eg, can't use HVAC waste heat) and I also have a need to burn through fuel stored on site every couple of years to keep the fuel fresh, regardless of how much biocide I use, and how often I pull fuel samples from the storage tanks. So with a source of fuel that needs to be disposed of, and a demand for power that needs to be met, and a need for heat, this is kind of a no brainer.
First, the need for heat: Since the big generator is fast start, it has a 6KW block heater that turns on at 100 degrees, and turns off at 120 degrees. Keeping a 600HP monster sized engine block warm is not easy when it's in an uninsulated, and very ventilated outdoor enclosure. Insulating would lower reliability due to possibility of fire, increased chances to provide habitat to rodents, etc. The only way to have a reliable fast start diesel genet is to have it outdoors, and that takes lots of electric heat. That's where the roid comes in. It's a glorified fuel oil burning boiler! The plan is to pour in place a cement powerhouse to mount a 6/1, with enough room for a future engine as well. It will be built semi bunker style, about a foot below finished grade, with tall walls for spill containment since it will also house some fuel handling/filtration/and storage. It will also have a prefab concrete roof overhead to contain a fuel fire. Exhaust heat exchanger will recover exhaust heat, to help heat lister engine coolant. A coolant loop (pumped with a fract hp circ pump for efficiency and reliability) will push heat around to a fuel/engine oil heat exchanger to heat both, flow through insulated underground pipes to the a heat exchanger on the large genet to keep the coolants isolated. I hope to seriously offset the block heater usage by dumping all of the roid's waste heat to the genet. I'm going to go with 50% of a gallon of input fuel's BTUs as my recovered engine+ exhaust heat goal. The roid will have no backup radiator. On a hot summer day, worst case, the big genset’s thermostats will open and thermosyphon enough heat away through the massive radiator. I doubt that will ever happen, even on the hottest of summer days.
Using the "waste" horsepower, ::) the roid will drive an induction motor, and will grid tie on the "load" side of the transfer switch. That way the big genet's transfer switch will give me all the utility isolation I need. Undervoltage, overvoltage, underfrequency, overfrequency, it covers it all. Also, I will place a drop out contactor on the lister powerhouse, with fuel solenoid on the lister, and in the event that the grid drops out for more than a few cycles, the listerplant will self isolate, and coast down. I will do the same with a couple of heat/smoke detectors, oil level, excessive head temp, and the like. Anything goes wrong, and the powerhouse isolates itself, the listeroid coasts down, the event is reported to facility SCADA, and someone will know about it before the roid coasts to a stop. I will never ever back feed, as I use about 20X more power than the roid can produce at any given time. In the event that strange things happen and we end up on gas turbine internal power and externally, diesel genet power, and lister power too, the roid would end up being connected connected to the big genet during an outage with zero facility power use. In that case, the big genet will easily absorb the KW of the roid. (The genet is rated to absorb 40KW of load... 10X more than the roid's output!) If the belt on the roid breaks, then it'll just sit there and put put along until it gets checked on. No harm, no foul. The amount of power the roid will produce at a given instant is miniscule compared to the other things going on around it. But running 24/7/365, it will add up to significant amounts of energy. In the event the roid breaks, catches on fire, or the like, the block heater on the big genet will operate as normal, no coolant will be lost from the big genet, and the distance will be far enough that a fire will pose no problems to the facility or the big genet. If the roid breaks and ends up motoring off the grid, no problem. It’s just some power lost until it gets checked on. Even the energy to motor a roid for a week is minor compared to everything else being used on site.
Sound like a winning power plan(t)?
The spreadsheet math to back it up:
Assuming.......
6/1 listeroid, 1 quart per hour of fuel consumed, 50% heat reclaimed for a gallon of fuel consumed and a gallon of fuel at 120,000 BTU/hr, and an actual roid electrical output of 3KW.... (like my conservative numbers?)
BTU per gallon 120,000
Gallons/hr 0.25
BTU/hr 30,000 KW/hr 3kw elec
Heat Efficiency 0.5
BTU/hr heat 15,000
Elect heat offset KW 5kw heat 3kw elec.
Power Price $0.06/kw
$$ per hr $0.30heat $0.18 elec.
$$ Per gallon $1.2 $0.72
Total Heat & Power $$ offset per gallon of fuel consumed $1.92
At 6 cents per KW hour, the roid will turn a gallon of fuel in to $1.92 worth of heat and power. At 7 cents per KW hour, the roid will turn a gallon of fuel in to $2.24 of heat and power. At 8 cents per KW hour (summertime) the roid will turn a gallon of fuel in to $2.56 of heat and power.
Assuming 50% average operating hours over the course of a year, worst case is that I "dispose" of fuel at the rate of:
Avg. Operating Factor 0.5
Avg. Gallons/hr 0.125
Avg. Gallons/day 3
Avg. Gallons/Month 91.3125 <----Incidentally, an old fuel oil tank I'll be using as a day tank is 250 gallons, so one month 100% operation will still not drain a full day tank)
Avg. Gallons Year 1,095.75
At 50% plant operation, 50% heat reclaimed per gallon, and 6 cents per KW/hr, that's $2,103.84 per year. Assuming my time is free (it’s not!) hopefully over enough years, (10?) that will eventually pay for the listeroid, the accessories, and the powerhouse. And provide me with some deep levels of satisfaction, and DISTRACTION, in the process. As an uptime guru, I do enjoy seeing just how long things can remain in constant operation without human intervention. And that’s worth something.
It might take me a year of work to get it in operation, but overall, it’s probably one of the easiest projects I’ve ever tried to take on.
-
It might take me a year of work to get it in operation, but overall, it’s probably one of the easiest projects I’ve ever tried to take on.
First job on day one, have that cut into a steel plate with plasma, and set it into the ground before the listeroid plinth.
vbg.
-
Hi justsomeguy
Sounds interesting. Keep us posted.
On keeping the fuel fresh, you might consider using some power from the Lister-oid to pump fuel from the main tank through filters and back to the main tank. This is known as "Polishing" the fuel. Recently there was a post about self cleaning filters from Purolater filters. Interesting. or maybe Gulf coast paper towel filters.
Dennis
PS How about PMing me I would like discuss some thing with you.
Thanks.
-
...Sound like a winning power plan(t)?...
...but overall, it’s probably one of the easiest projects I’ve ever tried to take on.
<brutal>
Oh yeah, everything is easy sitting at the keyboard. It's the doing that ain't so easy.
In your spreadsheet I saw no allowance for the questioable, and most likely piss-poor reliability of a Listeroid. Come on, now. A freakin’ data center relying on an Indian Listeroid? I’m thinking you might want to leave that little tidbit out of the marketing plan for the facility.
You’re talking through your hat, dude. THIS is one project that aint’t gonna happen.
</brutal>
Sounds interesting, keep us posted…
-
this may well indeed be the toughest project you will ever be envolved in...
good luck though,,, there are those that will beat me for raining on your parade,,,, but that is the reality.
can it be done? yes,,, will it be the easiest thing you have ever done,,, no, unless you have to climb mount everest each and every day to get to work,,, then yes it will be easier,, but not by much... :)
the 10 year plan,, and the idea of making it go without human intervention aint gonna happen,,, you have to lube the valve train daily, or at least you should. that alone makes this a hands on engine.
i dont think you could do this even with one of Guys beloved original listers,,, fresh out of a crate, new old stock!
hey don't listen to me,, prove me wrong
bob g
-
Hi justsomeguy
Sounds interesting. Keep us posted.
On keeping the fuel fresh, you might consider using some power from the Lister-oid to pump fuel from the main tank through filters and back to the main tank. This is known as "Polishing" the fuel. Recently there was a post about self cleaning filters from Purolater filters. Interesting. or maybe Gulf coast paper towel filters.
Dennis
PS How about PMing me I would like discuss some thing with you.
Thanks.
I polish, I rotate, I treat with biocide. Yet the fuel still polymerizes, oxidizes, and generally degrades. Time is not on my side. There are multiple isolated fuel tanks, and they each get polished with a portable pump/filter set I built. In diesel fuel tanks, water happens. I'm considering trying some desiccant breathers for the vent pipes though. Seems like a good idea in theory, but they're expensive. Of course, as diesel prices increase, it gets more and more appealing. Still though, it's probably better to polish, and burn up the fuel though.
Something's that always bugged me about keeping diesel tanks bug free is that they put fuel pickups off the bottom as a "feature" to keep gunk and water from being sucked up. Picking the fuel up directly off the bottom would get any water droplets directly in to the water separator of the generator, where it belongs, so it can be removed during regular maintenance. Otherwise, it just builds up on the bottom of the tank, and promotes microbe growth. Another topic for another forum I suppose.
-
...Sound like a winning power plan(t)?...
...but overall, it’s probably one of the easiest projects I’ve ever tried to take on.
<brutal>
Oh yeah, everything is easy sitting at the keyboard. It's the doing that ain't so easy.
In your spreadsheet I saw no allowance for the questioable, and most likely piss-poor reliability of a Listeroid. Come on, now. A freakin’ data center relying on an Indian Listeroid? I’m thinking you might want to leave that little tidbit out of the marketing plan for the facility.
You’re talking through your hat, dude. THIS is one project that aint’t gonna happen.
</brutal>
Sounds interesting, keep us posted…
I will address your brutal answers one at a time, with brutal honesty.
First off, I don't take kindly to people telling me I can't do things. When I was 19, I was told I couldn't start an ISP. I was academically dismissed from college... I wasn't smart or devoted enough. Besides, I was too young to go in to business. But I was in business since I was 14 selling popcorn at local fairs, events, etc. I knew that there was no such thing as being too young for business. College didn't catch my interest, it was hard to focus on engineering when the internet was evolving around me. I wanted to be a part of that instead. Most people that tell me that I can't do so because they're afraid that they can't do so themselves. When I was 21, I was told I could never ever raise the capital to expand the ISP. People that tell me I can't try to make themselves feel better about their inability's, or lack of self worth by trying to convince me to think the same way. It doesn't work. I watched ISPs around me fail and go bankrupt. When I was 24, I was told that dial up was dead, and that it was dumb to expand my ISP to anywhere else. But I didn't listen. When people tell me I can't, it just drives me harder. When I was 25, I was told that I couldn't possibly afford to build out a data center, not on my own, not without merging with some other company, or bring in an investor that would end up owning most of the whole deal. I didn't listen. Stubborn me! When I was 26, I was told I couldn't have it lit with fiber from two diverse directions. Fiber is too expensive. When I was 27, I was told that I couldn't keep the ISP going without DSL from the local telcos. Now I have a data center. It has customers. At that point, people that knew me have pretty much stopped telling me what I can't do. I was told that having 3X generation would be too expensive. 3X redundant air conditioners? Nope, that would never fly. The funny things is that I managed to do both. More than 10 miles of fiber was installed and lit. I've got an ISP that has five nines of reliability. I've learned a thing or two about reliability over the years. I've got nearly a thousand square miles covered with fixed wireless broadband. DSL is overrated. I'm going to turn 30 soon, and I deserve a birthday present. A listeroid will do just fine, thank you! I think I've earned it!
In my spare time over the years, I've supercharged a car that shouldn't have been supercharged, dabbled in the programming of it's PCM, participated in some open source projects, played around with gas turbines, built pneumatic spud cannons that propel spuds beyond the speed of sound, installed an off grid system in a remote cabin, written some software, and probably some other stuff that I'm forgetting. I still like to practice pistol craft, because shooting stuff is fun, participate in hobby racing, you know, because driving fast on a road course is fun, and just do the normal day to day things that everyone does like have a family, raise my boys, climb towers, and run a business.
After all of that, yes, grid tying a listeroid is going to be a cakewalk.
About the reliability: apparently you weren't paying attention, or didn't actually read my post. Probably both. Maybe you were just too eager to try and bring me down. But that didn't work. Go read it again and pay attention this time. What part of that plan depended on the listeroid to do anything? It's an extra source of heat, and an extra source of grid tied power. Nothing more. TIED TO THE GRID! Nothing will depend on it, ever, and nothing will be made less reliable because of its existence or operation. It's going to sit in a detached concrete building to contain it! I'll say it again: the power house will have room for another engine that I can set in there along side the lister. I know I didn't forget to mention that. After I go to all the work to build the powerhouse and infrastructure, I would like the ability to get a small, modern 3 cylinder diesel, or another power source of choice if the roid isn't up to the task of reliability. And it probably won't be, but that's fine. Either way, I would like to learn exactly what that reliability level is. If I have to do some mods, that's fine, and that'll be part of the fun. It'll be part of the hobby!!
When I said that it would take a year, I meant that it would take a year in my "spare" time, if I was really ambitious about it. Heck, maybe it'll take two or three, but that's not the point. The point is that I could do this project in less than a month if I devoted myself to it. I know I can do it, that's not in question. The biggest question is how many years worth of spare time will it take?
-
It might take me a year of work to get it in operation, but overall, it’s probably one of the easiest projects I’ve ever tried to take on.
First job on day one, have that cut into a steel plate with plasma, and set it into the ground before the listeroid plinth.
vbg.
Good idea! But it'll take a lot of steel. Can you think of a way to paraphrase that down a little? Get it short, and I'll do it. That'll be the easiest part of the project! How about "This plate is the easiest part of the project."? ;)
-
Hi I suppose filling the air space in the storage tank might be an option. A slight pressure, maybe 1psi? They do some thing like this for paint in part used cans. I saw a kit advertised some where.
Most fuel tanks have an out let on the bottom to drain the sludge etc. When I used to service home oil burners we installed the pick up up off the bottom because you never knew what the delivery truck would bring with the oil. and we still had problems when the crap was too deep. I suppose thats why ships usually run off a day tank so you can run filtered and processed oil to the engine. The old lister manuals suggested a tank big enough to alow sludge and water to settle.
Thanks
Dennis
-
Diesel has bugs that live in it, only known way to kill them and keep the diesel fresh is circulate through a UV purifier, you still need to cycle the bunkers through an alfa-lavel from time to time.
-
Hi I suppose filling the air space in the storage tank might be an option. A slight pressure, maybe 1psi? They do some thing like this for paint in part used cans. I saw a kit advertised some where.
Most fuel tanks have an out let on the bottom to drain the sludge etc. When I used to service home oil burners we installed the pick up up off the bottom because you never knew what the delivery truck would bring with the oil. and we still had problems when the crap was too deep. I suppose thats why ships usually run off a day tank so you can run filtered and processed oil to the engine. The old lister manuals suggested a tank big enough to alow sludge and water to settle.
Thanks
Dennis
Here's an idea - inert gas over the fuel. Diesel exhaust wouldn't work unless then engine was near max power, because there'd still be a lot of oxygen (and water) left in the exhaust otherwise. A big dewar of liquid nitrogen is pretty cheap, and when used as a gas source, can last quite a long time for something like filling the air space over the fuel in a tank. If there are no oxidants, nothing will oxidize. You'd want to fill the tank as completely full as possible, then hook the vent up to the dewar and pump it back down to the normal storage level to replace the air with N2 in the headspace.
Also, you need tank sump drains like airplane fuel tanks use. Walk around to the tanks once a month and purge the water from the system into a bucket. This would probably be a lot better for your hardware than a bottom-of-tank fuel pickup for the generators.
-
The bugs that live in diesel are anaerobic.
I've seen them (over time) eat pits 1 and 2 cm deep in stainless steels, iron they don't touch.
The only way you can eradicate them is UV purification.