Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Things I want to Buy => Topic started by: old seagull man on November 05, 2018, 02:17:46 AM
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Still on the hunt for a 5 - 8 kw gen head in OZ, closer to QLD the better.
Belt drive..
There must be an extra in somebody shed.
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Hi OSM, what happened to the head from Kempsey? Mine now looks petty good (see photos). I have skimmed the slip rings, fitted the new sealed bearings and wired up the AVR. I had to make a new top box for it, as the one it came with was an insult to engineering, a drunken monkey could have done better!
The AVR replaces the old bridge rectifier which used to feed the field winding. I have ordered a new high quality bridge rectifier and heat sink. This will be coupled to the two loose black wires in the photo. in the event of an AVR failure (usually due to magnetic storms) I will be able to quickly connect the field winding (red/brown wires) to the rectifier and be back in business, albeit a temporary fix. If you are in any doubt about these generator heads and the addition of an AVR please check out Benny loves diesels on you tube. (I`m not Benny, so no self promotion here).
I have kept the 32 amp circuit breaker but discarded everything else, as I plan to put a distribution board on the wall above the generator. This will have volt, amp, hertz and mega watt hour meters.
Sorry this is all taking me so long but health issues keep me from doing much. I will keep my eyes and ears open for something that may be suitable for you, is Grafton too far south of the boarder for you?
Bob.
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No was all set to go and have had no contact from him.
He was coming up my way with his truck, that was wonderful of him, and we were going to meet and collect, it.
then nothing.
Sent him a few email, even inquired about the 10k he had, but no reply's. I hope he's OK.
So still looking.
Yours is looking very flash, Bob. And no Grafton is not to far. Im shore if we looked in Glort's Aladdin's cave we would find something.
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Don`t give up on Stephen, I know he has had a battle with health problems, I`m hoping he`s OK as he is a very nice, honest and knowledgeable guy.
OSM, be careful what you wish for, releasing the Glort Genie could have serious repercussions! :laugh:
Bob.
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Hi OSM, Able sell a very nice 8KVA generator head. They have a depot in Brisbane, trouble is it will cost you $1290! :'(
Bob
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Hi Thanks Bob,
have seen those. gen head and AVR, plus GST quoted me $1475 pick up in Brisbane.
They look like a good Stamford clone, wouldn't say were they were made.
So the search continues, and also thanks to everyone who is keeping an eye out.
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Well what do you know.
Stephen contacted me it looks like i might have a ST5 head in a week or two if it all comes together, so might will be out with the notes on your rebuild.
And time to start on mine.
:) :) :)
Happy Christmas to me
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Looks like someone is in for a very greasy Christmas. :laugh:
Bob
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Hi OSM, The new bridge rectifier and heat sink arrived today, way more powerful than needed but $20 for the pair gives me peace of mind in the event of a lightning strike killing the AVR. Probably less than a five minute job to rewire the field wires back to the rectifier and I`m back in business.
I also modified the top box cover by cutting a couple of air vents and covering them with fly mesh to keep out the creepy crawlies. Temperatures in summer can easily hit 50 centigrade here so can`t have too much ventilation.
Interestingly, the generator main body is painted with Brunswick Green to match the Lister engine. I wanted to spray paint the cover of the top box, I found that British Paints make a can of spray paint called Jungle Green which is nearly identical. might help some of our American cousins who can`t get Brunswick green.
Bob
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Well Santa arrived early at OSM HQ, Stephen met me in brisbane, and delivered me a nice 2010 built green chinese 5kw generator.
Pictures in the morning.
But it looks just like Bobs in the earlier photos. And will probable get the same Avr and bridge pack.
But Digital meters, Glort style.
So i will need a taper lock 140mm pulley and some other bits, as well.
How many drive belts are most people putting on there 5k heads? The engine has a four groove, pulley. So will need to match the section of the pulley and belts.
Any suggestions for drive belt setups, most very welcome. Its a pitty i can't use a serpentine fan belt from a commodore or falcon and couple of harmonic balancer pulleys.
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Bravo OSM, Christmas has come early. For v-belts, pulleys and taper lock bushes, google PTParts. They have outlets in Sydney and Melbourne. They also have an online ordering facility. Their website shows all belts, pulleys and taper locks with prices.
In my case I was thinking to use a twin 250 mm pulley and taper lock bush. I will run either A or B belts straight off the 600 mm Lister CS flywheel. The ST head needs to run at 1500 RPM to give me 50 Hz. The ratios with 600 mm to 250 mm should have my CS running at around 620 RPM. Probably as close as I am going to get without having a custom pulley made.
In your case I think the decision has been made for you by the drive pulley on the primary mover, unless you want the extra expense of changing it.
Let us know how you get on, lots of pics and questions please.
Bob
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Hi Bob
Your calcs on the ratio with the belts on the CS flywheel are within an ace of mine, I used a serpentine belt (to a stock pulley) as it's profile fitted in the space left under the flywheel with the CS bolted onto a bed made with RSJ's. (there's only 10mm or so)
I ended up with 630 ish rpm's, I can load the alternator up until the CS starts 'rolling coal' and there's no chirping or slipping at all. I have no idlers, the tension is adjusted by sliding the alternator back and forth on the bed.
I've not yet run the CS in anger but my feeling is that running 5% or so over the 600rpm will give a little slack when a load kicks in.
Cheers
Stef
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Hey Glort, how was NZ?
Only 12 months for your Brother in Law to do some turning for you? What I would give for a Doctor, Surgeon, lawyer or insurance company that would act so swiftly! :laugh:
Like your idea of a stepped shaft to accommodate different sized pulleys for different applications. I was considering some sort of a lay shaft to drive various demands, I may have to think again.
I will probably opt for twin A belts as the cost of a 250 mm twin B belt pulley will buy a lot of A belts. I`m not a tight arse by nature but I`m facing multiple surgeries to repair injuries from the accident. Very unlikely I will be able to work for at least another twelve months, so got to be very careful with the pennies. Very aggravating having all this time on my hands and no money to do any of the things I want doing, even if I briefly feel well enough to do them.
Hey Stef, glad you concur with my calculations, I suspect that there will be some wear on the belts so RPM may have to be tweaked a bit during regular maintenance. I was going to aim for 51/52 Hz unloaded expecting things to drop a bit as I up the demand.
I was thinking to make a tensioning system similar to the one in the photo, just bigger and stronger. I made a pair of these a few years back after the local village water pump motor got washed away in a flood event. The river rose by 24 meters! This one is the spare and has been in my shed ever since.
Bob
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Hey Guys...
Unless you want to become unhinged by the rattling and driving yourself nuts with that sort of tensioner on a "one power stroke every 4 days" style engine, rather opt for just the 4 slotted holes and a couple of jack bolts to tension the belts...
I tried one of these on one of my TM's a while back and it drove me nuts with the rattles....
Just my 2c worth, probably not actually worth that much too....
Cheers
Ed
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Hey Buddy and welcome back. I`ve missed you and I`m sure the rest of the forum have too. I`m very glad to hear you had an OK time in NZ even if it has thrown a bit of a fruit loop into the equation regarding previous visits. I went skiing in the Alps every year, for twenty years, with my Wife and family and none of us can agree on exactly which year we did what. Don`t worry about it, remember the good stuff and F*ck the rest of it, life`s too short. Very pleased to hear your Wife and Daughter enjoyed the trip.
With regards lawyers and etc. I think glaciers melt quicker , the question is will I be killed by old age or global warming/climate change before I get my day in court to sue these b*stards!
Very pleased that a mate of mine also bought a lathe a while back, with tooling. Its only small so I`m limited in what I can do but what an enormous saving when it comes to replacing bushes and etc. I would dearly love to have a milling machine, lathe and broaching press in my shed but the costs are prohibitive and I`m probably too crook to make worthwhile use of them. I do miss the equipment that was available when I was in the RAF, we could make anything and we did, up to and including a new bonnet for an E type Jaguar.
Pulleys, what a pain in the arse! Why can`t we standardize things? We have too many standards, Imperial/Metric and then all the weird and wonderful sh1t coming out of the third world. Confused? you will be! :laugh:
The difference between A and B belts is in their strength and contact surface area, B belts for heavy loads. For a six HP Lister CS engine, twin A belts and pulleys are a cheaper option and will probably still be going when I am long dead.
I`m with you on the issue of money and no inspiration as apposed to inspiration and no money. We need to either get together and be brilliant/successful or sit on our arses and do f*ckall in tandem! :laugh:
Thank you for your concern for my health and well being, I guess we have to play with the cards we`ve been dealt, even if it drives us half crazy. When I watched some of the guys in the Invictus games it made me feel quite ashamed that I can`t overcome my PTSD and anxiety issues when these blokes have been through much worse than me and are embracing life. I always thought I was tough until I watched them!
Not sure what you would end up with if you tried to build one good man out of two f*cked up ones, were you planning to build one very f*ucked up one out of what was left? Thank you for that thought, best laugh I have had in months, my wife now thinks I am even more strange.
Bob
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NZ population just hit 5 million recently
Ethnic diversity? Let me quote from the most recent (2017) stats below:
The majority of New Zealand's population is of European descent (74 percent), with the indigenous Māori being the largest minority (14.9 percent), followed by Asians (11.8 percent) and non-Māori Pacific Islanders (7.4 percent).
Minor ethnic: Māori 14.9%; Asian 11.8%; Pacific peoples
Major ethnic: European 74.0%
Population: 4,885,300 (Stats NZ 2017 estimate)
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The Pictures..
As you can see the head isn't that bad and the wiring, is not that fantastic, but its all there.
So im looking for a 38mm taperlock bush with a matching 140mm 3 section v belt pulley.
and will start with two belts, and go to 3 if needed. Cant see i would need all four.
An suggestions on ebay AVR's was thinking SX 460 or something like. Or are they only for Brushless heads?
So thats were it stands at the moment. May replace the top box with something bigger and put the power sockets on one side and the meters and breakers on the other.
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The consensus on ST heads for stationary use is to remove the doghouse and replace it with a smaller box for electrical interconnect only, and move your electronics to a wall mounted box.
I did that after watching the the usual failures. (We all want to believe it can't be that bad.) I used a die cast aluminum box that just covers the top opening.
The stock analog meter typically fails within a few hours of run time. It's a very high vibration location. If it is for a portable rig, I'd still remove the doghouse, and would not mount even digital electronics in that location.
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Hi OSM, when I bought my head, Stephen threw in a GAVR 15B AVR, looks to be an OK unit although the wiring diagram is a bit confusing. Cheapest I could find on fleabay is this one https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Universal-Diesel-Generator-Part-AVR-GAVR-15A-Automatic-Voltage-Regulator/122996408286?epid=2286885748&hash=item1ca3283fde:g:kg0AAOSwSP9bUaiE:rk:59:pf:0
Is the pulley on your engine for an A or B belt?
Totally agree with BruceM about vibration causing problems. Once I get around to building a permanent home for my CS and generator head I will be moving every thing onto the wall.
Bob
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Don't know will have to measure, the beast. Looks bigger than a standard fan belt. when cars had fans, let alone fan belts.
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Hi OSM, measure the width of the grooves at the widest point, A belts are 12.7 mm wide, B belts 16.7 mm and C belts 22mm.
Hoping it`s an A belt pulley as B and C belts and pulleys are a bit pricey. When I as working in the Boral sawmills we standardized everything to run A belts because of this. Everything except for the waste chippers which ran six 5 meter long D belts, these had to be exactly matched in length, if one belt got damaged we had to change all six. Very glad I wasn`t paying for them! :laugh:
Bob
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Hi OSM, just did a quick price check on pulleys and taper lock bushes.
SPA 140 mm triple $56.98
SPA 140 mm quad $67.68
SPB 140 mm triple $64.14
SPB 140 mm quad $77.15
2517 Taper lock bush for 38 mm shaft with 10 mm key $28.80
Don`t know what delivery charges would be.
Bob
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Wow thanks guys, for all the info. And the shopping.
Bob who is the supplier you refer to with those pulleys? That looks like were i will be going.
I will measure the pulley on the engine in the morning, im in the middle of a 18 hour work day at the moment,
so wont be struggling around the shed at 1am.
I know Glort is awake then and up to his best work, but i need sleep and to keep in good with the wife.
thanks again for everyone's help. :)
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Hi Guys,take a look at this link. https://www.ptparts.com.au/
Outlets in Sydney and Melbourne free delivery on orders over $50! :)
Very nice website with lots of information, prices and you can order online. Just what the internet is supposed to provide.
Don`t understand the idea of a motor vehicle with a stereo system that can only be safely listened to two states away, in a sound proof bunker! As for the alternators to power these wretched things, I suspect there is a forum somewhere feeding them the wrong information so someone can make a fast buck.
Sadly these guys grew up watching Startrek and other science fiction movies, They didn`t study at school and don`t understand the laws of physics. They think the equipment they are buying now is expensive, just wait till they have to fork out $80,000 for cochlear implants so they can hear again! :laugh:
Bob
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Oh God, Glort wants to kiss me, beam me up Scotty I`m in the sh1t!
Being serious, the prices are right and the website helpful and well designed. I have no idea what their customer service is like, I guess we will have to buy something to find out. Who wants to go first?
Bob
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Measured the engine pulley this morning;
Top:17mm
Bottom:7.5mm
Depth:16mm
So i'm guessing a "B" Pulley or the Chinese version of one.
Though its a machined pulley no a cast one as i have seen on other engines.
So it time to order a pulley, so 2, 3, or 4, grooves is the question.
leaning towards 2 or 3, can't see me needing 4 belts for 10kw drive and 5kw load.
And its not like i wont notice a broken belt, so i don't need the redundancy, that 4 will provide.
Im leaning towards two and i might use one at a later stage to run a small alternator for battery charging..
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Hi OSM, how are you planning to tension you belts? This may sound like a stupid question but the more belts you run the more tension you need to apply, this will have an impact on bearing life expectancy. I`d be tempted to get a triple B belt pulley and just run two belts, if slippage or rapid belt wear becomes a problem you can add a third belt later.
I`m going with a pair of A belts running on the CS flywheel and a 250 mm twin pulley. lots of surface area in contact with the belts so I doubt slippage will be a problem. Large bore single cylinder engines accelerate on the power stroke and decelerate on the compression stroke, this can cause premature failure of the belts and also causes flicker in ST heads without auto voltage regulation.
Bob
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I'm stuck with the "B" belts unless i change the engine drive pulley. Was origionally looking at 3000 rpm alternators, and was going to use long "A" belts like your self and wrap them around the flywheel.
But the arrival of an ST5 1500rpm put an end to that.
Belt tension was going to be elongated slots in the base plate. It has to be simple.
And might build a wooden base just to set it all up, just to make shore everything works.
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Hi OSM, like your keep it simple approach. You might consider adding a couple of jacking screws to help with tensioning and alignment. B belts it is, probably worth getting the triple pulley, depending on your finances, gives you that extra bit of redundancy depending on how often you plan to run it.
Bob
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Its looking like it wont be the small portable generator, she indoors imagined it might be.
I sat the bits in there approximate positions in the drive to work out pulley centers and belt lengths.
The wood frame will only be to test it all out, now. it my end up on a steel trolley, yet.
We have a few of these Lister trolley round the place, and it might be the way to go?
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Hi OSM, do the right thing and build it a shed with a concrete floor, doesn`t need to be big or fancy. Might be a lot of work but when everyone else is sat in the dark you will be enjoying TV, internet access and a cold beer. :laugh:
Bob
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Something for all you Guys for all the suport.
"ITS Alive"
https://youtu.be/_vOby0QngWw (https://youtu.be/_vOby0QngWw)
It will get real engine mounts and all those things, but now you have seen its real and it runs.
Smells good to Glort. So thanks everyone.
One thing i have to say is the engine runs a lot smoother than you Guys lead me to believe it would.
In the video its just sitting on its shipment palate, and it don't move much.
Will have to stand a glass of water on it, like dad used to with the RR engines, that should be fun.
Hay i might have invented a new type of milkshake maker. LOL.
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Wow, that does run smooth. Can`t wait to see how it handles the load. Definitely deserves a small shed to live in, ideally near your electric meter box so you can wire it up permanently with a cross over switch. You could then run your house on waste veg oil anytime you like.
Let us know how you go.
Bob
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It is a nice runner- and compact enough to be a "pull out to run" backup generator.
My neighbor has a cheap 4KW propane generator as a backup for his propane modified CS 8/1 clone housed in a Rubbermaid Deck Storage Box. The box must be opened and the generator set pulled out slighly for operations. It's all wired and plumbed for propane, and he has a switch to select CS or 3600 rpm screamer. He also uses it for his portable power needs with a 5 gallon Propane cylinder.
I also have my 4KW backup gas screamer in a deck box outside my Listeroid 6/1 engine shed, all wired up. I have never used it beyond testing. The Rubbermaid boxes are surprisingly durable, mine is over 10 years old and I stand on it monthly for radiator fill tank service.
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I went to pick up something on gum tree yesterday and this was in a shed that was falling down, on the property.
6 cylinder ford Industrial engine with a 60kva Dunlite Alternator on it. Used to be the backup at the local bush hospital.
He wouldn't let me start it.
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Hi OSM. I so want one of those, does the guy use it or is it just rusting away? Either way tell him to fix the shed!
Bob
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Lots of units of similar capacity to this for sale on TradeMe here for, maybe, $3-4K. But they're too big to load and too thirsty to run. What would you do with one
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Hi Mike, I`d sell power to my neighbors once the whole energy grid goes to sh1t. Only a matter of time IMHO
Bob
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Yes. Been hearing stories across the ditch of energy fragility over there. Greed and stupidity in action - like governments everywhere "captured by industry" sadly
Once upon a time electrical reticulation here was seen as a service that had to be provided by government for the good of citizens & development of the economy. Over about 70 years it has changed into a commodity that can be sold to those who can afford it, is out of reach of those who can't, and is generated and distributed by large companies whose first obligation is to make a double-figure return on investment to shareholders. Sad days
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Once again Glort you have hit the nail on the head when it comes to the truth. The people don`t want the truth. The truth is inconvenient to them and undermines their feelings of superiority, entitlement and immortality. Governments have always known that people will believe what they are told and ignore anything that is likely to have a negative impact on their personal wealth and well being.
One of these days, and it won`t be long, they are going to get the shock of their lives when someone tells them they can`t have what they want because there isn`t any left!
Might be time to start stockpiling what is going to be in short supply in the near future.
Bob
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May I please, please, please have the job of rounding up those that are going to be incinerated. :laugh:
Bob
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Eyes aren`t what they were but I`m still a pretty good shot. My bull sh1t detector is well tuned and I know which end of a cattle prod to hold. Would it help if I offered to take the position unpaid?
I consider it my civic duty to rid the world of these parasites, they are all going to burn in hell anyway, I simply want to accelerate the process. I would probably start in Canberra where there is a high concentration of overpaid useless individuals.
Bob
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Well progress is slow, but today OH&S was closed, so i had the Proof Of Concept run.
No OH&S inspectors in site. Wife on a Christmas cruse with the sister and all the kids.
The Pulley came from a bearing supplier here in Brisbane, and when he heard what i was doing he though in the belt. $55.
Gates one too, nice your man. Pulley is 160mm, so at 1500 rpm the engine is doing 1760 rpm. the balancer shafts in the engine seem happiest at this speed.
And the temp didn't change much. Load was a 2400 watt heater. ran for about 15mins before the rain, ended play.
See voltage on the meter on the dog box, and we all know meters don't lie.
So the next step is the AVR and its box, and build a frame.
All the best to everyone for christmas, and thanks for all the help.
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Well the AVR turned up today, and i have a few days off, so i thought i might build the wooden test bed, and get the avr wired together.
But the only information that came with the avr is a spec's sheet.
No actual setup information. Supplied with a GAVR 12a even though i ordered a 15, like Bob was supplied with his generator.
Have the basic setup for a samford sx type so got the basics, but if anyone has actual step by step instructions, PLEASE.
Thanks All, more pictures when more is done.
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Hi OSM, I`ve still got the information that came with my AVR, it`s in the shed somewhere, I`ll try to find it, scan it and post the info.
Bob
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Hi OSM, finally found the wiring diagram and scanned it, sorry about the coffee stains. The drawing you need to follow is number four, just leave out the diode, resistor, switch and battery which can be used to flash the field winding.
Bob
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Thanks to everyone for the finding and scanning and posting. That gets me on the right track.
What im having trouble with is the settings on the AVR.
There are three pots labeled VOLTS STAB and U/F and a Red Led.
Volts: I'm guessing that with the prime power running at temperature and the generator running at 1500 rpm i set this to give me 240 volts. (Volts makes seance)
Stab: Guessing that i load the generator up and and adjust this till i have no drop in output voltage as i increase load? (Stability off the output is what i guess this sets)
U/F: To set the uf knee point This pot is covered so I'm guessing its already set to were its supposed to be?
And what the led is for and what settings it relates to i have know idea.
The saga continues. ;D
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I think for fine tuning, you start with the RPM close to 1500, and adjust it till your frequency is correct at about 20% load. ( 60 hz or 50 hz ) Then at that frequency, you adjust the voltage to where you need it to be. I see about a 4 hz swing in Fq from no load to full load in my system.
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Happy Easter to all.
I got sick of waiting for the welder to do his thing, and i had wanted to knock up a test stand to see it all working, so here is the video.
Sorry shot with a old phone, because Im an old man. Avr Box and panel still to go, but progress is being made. Slowly.
https://youtu.be/bay9H9Ds-6A
https://youtu.be/bay9H9Ds-6A (https://youtu.be/bay9H9Ds-6A)
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Yes got sick of waiting for the welder.
I Asked the manufacture about the legs, as everyone has said to me there only for shipping, but Shifing the engine builder, say there ok to use and most Chinese generators use them with thousands of hours on them.
But let me know what your using. As i hope one day to get the real frame from the welder, sooon? Had been thinking about using car engine mounts of some kind.
Thanks for the good words
Andrew