Lister Engine Forum

Alternative fuels => Other Fuels => Topic started by: glort on September 29, 2018, 10:32:01 AM

Title: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: glort on September 29, 2018, 10:32:01 AM

Decided the Hydrogen gas was a failure.  Didn't fail to make gas, started off slow but then came along very nicely.
Failure  was in me being too scared to use it once I realised what it's flammability ratio was in air.... Way too wide for my comfort level.

On to bigger and other wastes of time....
With the weather warming up here and my solar production going through the roof, I decided to give the Bio gas thing another go.
Got a 110L Plastic drum same as the one I used for the hydrogen generation but instead of cutting the backside out of it, I left it complete, screwed the Valved outlet from the Hydrogen generator in the top and filled the thing about 80% with a mix of horse manure, Rabbit manure and a good handfull of Biological pellets.

Premixed it all into a slury of unspeakable Yecch! and put it in the Drum.  I'm just going to try a batch system first, make sure I can get the thing to work this time.  Last time I think I went the wrong way adding sugar which makes booze and CO2 not the methane I want.
The day temps are getting up to around 25 oC here and the solar is going off it's nut so using some to heat the mix is not a problem at all.

I put the smaller drum inside the larger one and sat that on some expanded white polystyrene for insulation from the cement floor and put it inside the shed door. I heated the water using a 2 KW element meant for Cups of water or whatever and my trusty old plastic Urn which was doing just under 2 KW.  With probably only 120L of water to heat up, I was over heating pretty quickly and had to back them right down.  I got the water jacket up to about 47 which I figured was OK because the inner drum will take a while to heat sink and stabilise the whole mix.  I want to run the thing around 35 but I might go to 40 in the day as the inner drum probably won't reach that anyhow and from what I saw, 40 is the upper limit for the middle temp digestion anyway.

I wasn't going to worry about insulating the outer drum as I'm not worried about the power to heat it and in a few weeks daytime temps will be 30 and night won't go  below 20.  One thing I over looked was the digestion drum is supposed to be dark to keep out light so Algae don't grow and waste Nutrient that the gas microbes could use.  The outer drum is blue but the inner is translucent.
With this in mind I found a larger Black Nylon tarp and wrapped the outer drum and covered the top.  Probably provide some insulation and well as darkness. As the air in the shed will be still at night, I wouldn't expect terrible heat loss anyway.

I have my Voltage monitoring Relay hooked up to the PWM Controller to reduce the power of the heater element which I have set to 1 KW. Soon as the solar starts pushing the voltage in the Circuit up, the heating element will kick in. I have enough hysteresis  programmed into the Voltage relay so once it kicks in, it will stay on at the reduced voltage level and not see saw all the time.

I spose now I wait a week to a fortnight and see what gas I make.  I have been looking for a a way to burn off the extra solar I am making and this is probably a tragic return But I have nothing else I can do with the power I'm making atm anyway.  Maybe in another month or so, The average temps will be high enough that I won't need to heat at all. Certainly will be like that at least 4 months of the year.

I will need t stir the mix and that one is eluding me for the moment other than to give the Digestor barrel a shake now and then.
My preferred option is see if I can find an airpump with an in and an out I can tap a hose to. I'll take the gas from the outlet Tube and put a Feed to the bottom of the tank and it can  Agitate with it's own gas. For this half arsed system probably wouldn't matter if it wasn't stirred, just make for slower gas production. Speed isn't the object here, just getting a successful gas production at any rate is.

I see on the net many Systems that use household scraps, Chicken, horse, cow and pug dung as the feed source but also a lot that utilise Human waste.
Really am not the least bit concerned about getting elbow deep in animal Crap but I sure draw the line at what comes out my own Fundamental orifice.
That said, I'm surprised I haven't seen any commercial systems that work like the Aerobic system everyone round here has done as an anaerobic with the gas as a by product.  Might be something that requires too much maintence for the average householder.

If this shows to be worthwhile I Might consider a bigger system but I doubt it would really be viable here. I would definitely have to heat it in winter and electricity is in short supply then. Could use oil but it would need daily attention.  Highly doubtful I'd get enough gas to do anything worth while with it anyway.  Might get enough to cook with but I'm not going to plumb it to the house and sure as hell not going to go up the yard for anything more to boil the kettle during ( a fine) Day.
To run an engine, I'd need a Much bigger digestor and a few cows in the back yard or be running to the equine park every weekend and shoveling a ton of shit literally. Much easier for me to run on oil.

Even just setting these things up you learn a lot which if nothing else is good experience and knowledge for having a real world understanding of these  alternative " save the world" technologies and their viability.
From what I have seen on the net, there is a lot that could be done with municipal waste to reduce landfill here, get a renewable energy ( or 2 in gas and power) and have a worthwhile by product in the fertiliser.  Other countries are making it work successfully which is why it will probably NEVER be adapted here.
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: LowGear on September 29, 2018, 06:08:34 PM
I heard some loose talk about beefing up the wiring out to the power shed?
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: glort on September 30, 2018, 02:17:53 AM

Still the plan Casey.

Just trying to organise that and other " civil works" around the place in order.  It's not the top priority but one that does probably play ion my mind the most.
There is also the quandary that it won't make any difference when I really need the power in winter and I still have too much in summer even limited as it is.
The main thing atm is to get the panels on the ground up on the north roof.  Literally talking to the mrs about that minutes ago.
She wants to go galavanting here and there around the place and OS then reminds me Christmas is coming and wants the things off the yard..... as Do I and have done for months.

The plan atm is to get those panels on the roof then get the guy to come run the HD cable for those, to the shed and to another part of the back of the house at the same time. Wiring it up does not worry me but I'm wary of the Physical job of pulling the cable through the existing populated conduit which I know will be tight and probably take skills and tricks I don't have.

Think I better get the panel relocation moved up the scale and underway as a higher priority. Weather is getting warmer fast and from past experience I know being on roofs with panels is not a summer sport and certainly not one for my disposition.
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: glort on October 10, 2018, 12:03:54 PM

Today I started getting some gas in reasonable Volume. Burped the digester drum twice and it was well puffed up.

I have had a heater element in the water jacket sitting on 350C and it seems to be doing the job. been getting little puffs of gas  for about a week and been bleeding it every day to purge the tank.  Today though it was probably a couple of liters at a time. Come on pretty fast from what I was getting even 2 days ago.

I got a plastic bag and made a Fist size Bubble of gas and tentatively  lit it.... even without hearing protection. I got a nice lazy loping flame which made me a happy little boy that my ears weren't ringing like the Hydrogen test. I'll have to make up a storage Device again now. Kinda forgot about there where I sited the digester. Does not leave a lot of room for a floating  inverted drum design like the last one.  Might go to town tomorrow and see if I can procure a used innertube or 3 at the right price.  Wonder if a normal oxy Flashback arrestor will work with Bio gas?

Will be good when the warmer weather gets here and I don't have to heat the drum to keep it up to temp.  Put a monitor on it today to see how much power it's using. With the very light wrapping to act as insulation and the cool night temps, I'd gaurantee it's burning more energy than it producing by a long shot atm.  Be interesting to see what itt produces when it's up and running.  From what I have read, I don't expect it to be a great deal.
This is more proof of concept and it it looks worthwhile I have had a rare black IBC put up the back for many months for the idea.

Might have to shield it from the sun when the weather is hot but need the black to keep the light out anyway.  As the temps ramp up and cool down, may be good for self heating.

It would be interesting to have a gas volume meter on the setup to see the total  production I get but not seen ( or looked ) for one but I'll bet hey are worth more than the project warrants by a very long shot.  :0)
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: mike90045 on October 11, 2018, 02:52:10 AM
A metal screen flash arrester is pretty universal.
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: glort on October 11, 2018, 04:59:50 AM

Maybe steel wool packed inside a tube would be OK as well?

So far heater has pulled 3KWH. Might be about 3.5 Kwh for the day. Less than I was expecting thankfully. Weather has been really cool so its a good result.
Put a hose on the outlet Valve and put the other end in water. I am getting a steady bubbling now which means decent gas production. I believer this might last 4-6 weeks.  The digester is only set up for batch mode but I might try removing an amount of the liquid in the middle when things slow down and add new feed stock manure.

With a bit of luck should pick up again in a week and I can burp the thing and make more gas. Should be no need for any heating with ambient temps then as well.
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: dax021 on October 11, 2018, 06:02:11 PM
Or try this.  I think Ed mentioned it a while ago.
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: glort on October 12, 2018, 01:26:47 AM

That was the sort of thing I had in mind.

It would be better I think to use proper flashback arrestors  which I have if they would work.  Bit more professional than bubbling water although what I read that can also act like a filter for acids in the gas as well Saw a couple of vids and they run the gas through steel wool as well.

Might be another trip to the hardware for some PVC end caps and a big bag of steel wool .

I have been shutting it off and then watching how much gas comes out but it's producing too much for that now. Just went up and had a look and the drum was deformed with the pressure.  Bled it off for about a Minute through a 1/4" hose. Seems the gas was trapped in the water or something given the time it took to bleed off in a quite steady  but significant way.   Have it Bubbling into a submerged 10L container now and will see how long that takes to fill.

Looks like this could be upscaled to something worthwhile. Although what that worthwhile purpose for me is i'm not sure? 
Something else that works best when you need it least.
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: dieselspanner on October 12, 2018, 10:31:28 AM
Hi Glort.

''Although what that worthwhile purpose for me is i'm not sure?''

Given the amount of panels you've got how about one of these?

Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: glort on October 12, 2018, 11:11:05 AM

I looked at the link, saw Zepplin and started laughing!!

You are a bit behind Stef.  This is Methane not Hydrogen I'm playing with now.  :D
I Did Vent the Hydrogen I had one time into a plastic garbage bag.  Although Large, it was still pretty much Neutral lift.  Might have needed to have some positive pressure in the bag for Bouncy. As a kid I loved helium Balloons.  Always would tie them to toy cars to elevate them.

Feeling brave today I dried Lighting the gas while bubbling it through some water in a drum.  I had it bubbling really fast and had a blow torch but couldn't get it to light. I thought maybe the Bacteria pellets I put in had made the other type of bacteria that produces Co2 and makes booze.
I was very disheartened because I thought 2 fails at something that should be simple and I put real effort and energy into.

I pondered for a while and thought, No, there should be nothing in there to force the reaction that way.  Minimal Sugars and the gas production is too high.  I recalled seeing on vids stink gas burns with a blue flame and while still overcast, thought that perhaps I was just not seeing the flame.  Throwing Caution and personal safety to the wind, I took the output tube back in the shed and removed the heater controls  I had sitting on top  and cleared the screw in valve with the bung of the black cover.  I thought if I light this and it Pops, with a bit of luck the bungs will go first.

Cracked the valve, applied blow torch and  was greeted but a beautiful light blue flame I let burn about 30 sec and am still here to tell the tale.
Got it right this time at least!  I put my hand over the flame and felt more heat than I expected. I haven't looked up the calorific value of this gas but I thought it was pretty low.  Might be more in practical terms than I realised.

I have an idea I'm getting a thick crust on the top of the slurry by the way I can crack the valve and instead of getting a fast rush of gas that bleeds down in seconds like any compressed gas of about 20L volume would, I get a very constant supply that may go for a minute before it tapers off. I would have still thought the gas would be on the top though and if it had to come up that alone would permeate and saturated crust material.
I have been trying to agitate the drum which floats in the water jacket but maybe that is not vigorous enough?  Definitely any up scaling and more serious  digestor will have to have a stirring Mechanism although that may be able to be done through the feed hole as well.

Have to try and work out how much manure an IBC size Digestor would require per day.  I can get plenty of manure but I really don't want to be shoveling a Cubic meter a week of the stuff. Mrs was at me today to go get more but I still haven't unloaded the IBC I picked the last lot up in.  Might have to rethink the collection vessel.

I guess I could use the gas for a shit fueled BBQ. Something we have a lot of in summer and would save buying LPG ( or pro paaaaannne for the Us readers). Of course then there is the problem of Compressing the gas without out any air ingestion and how long a bottle of compressed but non liquefied gas will last.  Thinking I'm going to be needing a car size tank, which I have a couple of, full of gas at 100 PSI to cook a decent lot of chops, snags and Onions.  I have done good BBQ's on less than a litre of veg oil!

Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: Johndoh on October 12, 2018, 12:13:08 PM
Glort when are you going nuclear?
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 12, 2018, 12:29:27 PM
Hey JD, funniest comment of the week.  :laugh: Very glad I don`t live anywhere near Sydney.

Please don`t encourage him, I think Glort is perfectly capable of taking out most of his neighborhood without going nuclear,  he doesn`t need our help!

That said, to run a barbecue or gas cooker requires very little pressure. I think LPG runs at about 14 psi, which should be easily and safely achieved at home.

Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: glort on October 12, 2018, 01:35:49 PM
Glort when are you going nuclear?

Well, Funny you ask that!

I put in an order for some Plutonium and thought the delivery had arrived but it was just these men from the gubbermint.  I think they must have been interested in my alternative power ideas because they sure did ask me a LOT of questions about all sorts of things.  Didn't bring me any plutonium though!
I was thinking of a trip to Japan. I hear there is a town there on the coast and there are already processed fuel rods lying all over the place!
Such a wealthy country Japan to be able to leave that around for anyone to come along and just pick up.

Please don`t encourage him, I think Glort is perfectly capable of taking out most of his neighborhood without going nuclear,  he doesn`t need our help!

Not sure how to take that comment Bob! Compared to what I did and had at the other place, I'm highly reformed now. I haven't even fired an oil burner, not even a little one, since I have been here.  The urge is getting stronger though!  :-[

I was looking earlier at wood gasifiers which may be the next technology I have a play with.   The theory does not quite gell in my head how you can burn wood with air going through it as against in a retort type setup where it is just cooked,  and still get gas out of it? I'm guessing limited air allows it as  the gas is just smoke but it's basically a weak or diluted output.

My grandfather had a Couple of trucks with charcoal burners on them during the war.  Should look into the wood gas thing for family heritage sake.
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: mike90045 on October 12, 2018, 04:39:35 PM
Somehow, the idea of cooking my food with "fart gas" is not appealing.

I think the best use is an old fashion style gas lamp streetlight.
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: glort on October 12, 2018, 11:07:06 PM

I read the gas is supposed to be outdourless. Mine reeks!  The digester gas I mean as well as..... Never mind.

That said, when I lit it yesterday I made sure to get a good snoutfull and it was just that nice warm air smell, not a trace of odour at all.
Seemed to me it may be in fact cleaner and have less byproducts in it than  LPG.
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: Johndoh on October 13, 2018, 12:35:02 AM
Glort going nuclear was a throwaway comment but I think we are going to have to stop burning stuff for energy. I know I'm an engine lover like all of the people on here but I doubt we contribute a whole lot of the overall emissions but countries do. Ireland uses oil gas even peat to generate power and of course we import power from the UK some of which has to be nuclear generated. There's been a strict no nuclear policy for many years and I can't understand why. A small nuclear reactor would easily power the whole country and have some spare plus our emissions for power generation would drop to almost zero. We do have plenty of wind power, but its not something you could depend on. There's wind turbines all over the place, it seems we send that power to the UK so they can reduce their carbon emissions, more mad stuff! Really wind, solar or hydro aren't reliable enough for Ireland so we will continue to be hypocrites.

Of course eventually Glort or a Glort type in a shed will come up with a small reliable non polluting power source that every house will have to make their own power unfortunately I probably won't live to see it!
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: glort on October 13, 2018, 01:38:55 AM

Like a lot of things, I have spent time researching Nuke power and If I had the ability to ban it tomorrow, I would.
To me there is n justification to create deadly everlasting poison beyond comprehension that there is no solution for. There are endless excuses and spin doctoring about the safety of nuke but even barring any accident, you are left with a substance the destructive power of which is beyond most peoples imagination.  For people to complain about fossil fuel emissions and tout nuke as clean is incredibly Naive and hypocritical although I am sure people that believe what they see on TV and do no research for themselves are completely unaware of how bad this stuff is.

To export power and Import it at the same time is ludicrous but then again, that's the way of the world now.
It is the exact reason I have nothing but contempt for the whole save the world/ reduce emissions/ green mindset.  The ideal is good, the stupidity of what the world does and makes a joke of the good motivations is nothing short of criminal.
To have a green and emissions reduction mind set and then export power from one place to bring t back in from another is wasteful and ridicilous from anything but a greed POV.  It also shows the hypocracy of a lot of this green sentiment rammed down our throats.

We have the same thing here. One State, SA, had a greenwashed gubbermint that took out all the coal power stations then boasted they had no fossil Fuel generation and everything they generated was green and renewable.  That was technically correct but what they didn't say in their greenwashed bullshit was they imported coal fired power from 3 other states!  Everything they GENERATED was from renewable  but that's a lot different to everything they USE.
You always have to analise these statements to the Nth degree and look for the catch in every word and sentence.

I was watching a report last night about home solar in our citys. The question was brough up why there are restrictions on the solar you can use, why the companies charge 6X more for the power you buy than what you send back etc. Some moron mouthpiece was talking about the safety of the grid and they can't put it in danger from too much backfeed etc.  The report pointed out there had never been ANY problem traced to solar backfeed and when put to the power co mouthpiece, the typical duck shoving and repetition of a safe ( his favourite distraction word with no real meaning) reliable grid and other crap that completely by passed the question was both obvious and sickening. It was put to the company weasel it was about profit where he clearly feigned insult at the acusation . They then put the problem to a couple of high level  electrical engineers with as good credentials as you would get and they said very minor problems, very easy to fix, power co's are just talking BS to protect their business.

Well who would have ever suspected that?  :o

It's all about money. Fossil fuels and Emissions are not the enemy of the world, GREED is.  It's the reason you import and export power, the reason we have more than enough sunshine but are regulated so we can't use it and on it goes. It's not about saving the planet, it's all about making a buck.

I don't believe any great discoveries will be made by a glort. I believe SMART people already have discovered a lot of things and the tech has been salted away.
I have said many times, when a break though comes, if it's ever allowed, it will have been discovered by some tinkerer in the back shed 50 years before. The tech will have been bought, tinkerer will be paid off and living  the highlife and the tech buried. When they need it, it will be rolled out as some miracle discovery lost  years ago, but only just come to light.   Of course it will have to be complex and something the average person can't do or get hold of the components or ingredients themselves or that would destroy the profit and power aspect which is critical to gubbermints and big biz.  I think this is a big problem with solar in a lot of ways.  Takes away peoples dependence on being controlled and reduces profits.
Sounds like conspiracy theroys but most people don't realise how these things really work at high level.

Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: Johndoh on October 13, 2018, 08:46:22 AM
You could be right Glort that the governments are sitting on the solution for decades. I doubt it's nuclear powered either way too dangerous for the Glort in the shed to be messing around with and too complicated. It will be one of those "how the hell didn't I see that" ideas and yes there well may be some fella living high on the hog with money from big oil for his invention.

I understand your irritation about solar power part of the problems are indeed caused by big business and some of it, like the petty rules and regulations are caused by officialdom and government sucking up to big business by making it very difficult to use small scale green power generation.  I know in Ireland its difficult to get permission to erect wind turbines or solar panels on a small scale and almost impossible to get permission to feed into the grid. For example I'm not allowed a wind turbine with blades longer than 18" without permission. Of course permission isn't going to be granted because I live in a rural area and it would be an "eyesore", same with solar panels. A 2 foot turbine isn't going to power much more than a mobile phone charger
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: glort on October 13, 2018, 01:21:00 PM

Yep, That's the thing mate.
Renewable is all well and good while there is a buck in it for someone.  So much could be done to reduce the need for energy in many different ways at a grass roots level but that is really not what they want at all. There are all sorts of manufactured excuses they come up with to protect their interests.

It's important that we the people do exactly as we are told to think.

Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: glort on October 13, 2018, 01:45:53 PM

Feeling Confident today I lit up some more gas.  Found a flash back arrestor on an old Oxy torch so hooked the gas into that and made some blue flames.

Next step will be to make a burner for it and a gas reserve. I saw a vid today where they were using an airbed mattress. Seemed a good Idea and I'm sure There are a few round here somewhere.... or we threw them out in the move.. can't remember but will soon find out.

Saw this interesting Vid on a diesel engine conversion today.  Typical horizontal yanmar type engine converted to spark and running on gas.
love to know what the ignition bow was.  At first I messed it was converted to spark and though that thing sounds really off till I realised the thing was not running as a diesel but as an SI.
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: dax021 on October 13, 2018, 08:16:02 PM
Read something once about a farmer who used an old tractor tube connectected to the digester outlet.  When it was full he rolled it to his house, connected it to his stove and plonked a couple of concrete lintels on it to give pressure
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: Johndoh on October 13, 2018, 10:04:43 PM
Do those little gas conversion kits for petrol engines on a certain auction site actually work? Will they work for both propane and butane? They are interesting because you can store the fuel for a long period without it going "off" like petrol does. I did see a video of a guy that connected the crankcase pipe to bottled gas on a generator or lawnmower I cant remember which. It was a bit of a Heath Robinson affair.
How long would it run on a 12kg tank of butane? Is it safe?
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: glort on October 14, 2018, 10:40:33 AM

There's an idea inspiring  question!

I found these:

Gas carb and regulator for small engines. $30 delivered. Bargain.
In looking on the net the only problem with them would be the low pressure of the Bio gas unless you compressed it.  Not the most difficult thing, I can get a car AC compressor and hook it up to an electric motor and pump it into a tank like that. Being a non liquified gas I doubt a  normally BBQ Bottle would last long at all. I have a 45KG Cylinder up the back I could use but any compressed only gas is only a spec on a liquified one. 

Don't Know if methane will liquefy but I'll bet if it does, it would need about 3000 PSI or something like natural gas that would take more energy to compress than would it would be worth and require Oxy acetelyne type Cylinders .
I saw one vid where a guy was using an air pump to pull the biogas from a storage bag and pressurise it to the engine regulator.  Unfortunately it became apparent this would take a fairly decent compressor  and something larger than the sizeable Fish tank pumps he was using.  Given they would probably only do a couple of PSI at best and are probably flow rated at zero pressure, Most likely wrong tool for the Job.
maybe one of those airless Spray Gun compressors would be better but by the time you do that, what is the energy equation?

The airbed Storage idea isn't bad.  I could get a net, suspend that just under the off of the shed where it would be out the way and safe. Might have to insulate the roof or put batts on the mattress though so it didn't get too hot.  Roof isn't sealed and methane is lighter than air so any leaks would not be a danger.

Dunno if it were just me or the gas volume fell off today.  Heater is still on and water jacket up to temp so Ill keep an eye on it.
Spose it wouldn't be that hard to pull a bung, suck some water from the middle and top up again with fresh slurry. Just have to burp the thing for a few days to get the air out then should be good for another however long.

Rain still predicted for the best part of this week then a 31oC day on sat. I wonder if a coil of black pipe on the shed roof with a thermostat would be enough to keep a digester producing gas even at a lower level over the winter?  Then again, may be just better off utilising the area with solar PV and using a heater?

Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: Johndoh on October 14, 2018, 12:09:22 PM
I think I will get that little adaptor glort I was going to buy one from the UK it's £50 but 2 day delivery that's under €20!. I will keep an eye out for a non runner honda or honda clone generator. It's usually a fcuked carburettor full of varnish that stops these little machines from running. I could have a cheap generator and if it doeskin work out it's a very small loss. Gas is 50% cheaper than petrol I read somewhere but that's not really the appeal it's the machine sitting for 6 months unused and firing right up. Much better than cleaning the jets on a carburettor by the light off a Tilley lamp!
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: glort on October 14, 2018, 02:25:03 PM

Looking at that side I did some conversions in local prices.

Petrol is high here, around $1.50 L atm.  Even still, the cheapest gas Refil I know of would still be marginally cheaper.  If fuel goes down to where it has been for some time, then that would be cheaper.

I understand your motivation was Storage but was thinking for myself with how cheap the carb setups are, Might have potential.
Petrol would ( and well may) get a lot more exy before gas became cheaper. Kind of thought they would be on par energy / price wise.

 LPG for Vehicles used to work out much cheaper. Doing the calcs now, there is also very little Difference between Bottled and refilled gas.
Just the same, Might be worthwhile having a cheap petrol Generator converted for gas use.

Wish we would get Blackouts here more often so I could substantiate these toy.... purchases.
Last blackout I remember was probably 15 years ago and only caused by an acciden't in a car taking out a pole. Less than 90 min and all was good again.
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: Johndoh on October 14, 2018, 02:51:45 PM
Petrol here is €1.50+ per litre gas is about €25 for the small cylinder you would use in a gas heater so relatively cheap. thats with shopping around you can also pay €1.65 for petrol and €30 for the gas. There's no non runners for sale near me at the minute but I can wait. The website I was looking at that said gas was 50% cheaper was American and they were using mains gas I know that even in Ireland its way cheaper than bottled gas. It has to be worth a shot I think.
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: mike90045 on October 14, 2018, 05:53:47 PM
I think most of the automotive AC pumps, require lube oil in the line, and not a simple sump.
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: mikenash on October 14, 2018, 07:15:36 PM
Petrol here is €1.50+ per litre gas is about €25 for the small cylinder you would use in a gas heater so relatively cheap. thats with shopping around you can also pay €1.65 for petrol and €30 for the gas. There's no non runners for sale near me at the minute but I can wait. The website I was looking at that said gas was 50% cheaper was American and they were using mains gas I know that even in Ireland its way cheaper than bottled gas. It has to be worth a shot I think.

Back when we had Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) here, folks would do dangerous things with diving tank air compressors to fill CNG tanks with "pipeline" gas.  I never heard of any explosions . . . .
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: BruceM on October 14, 2018, 07:18:20 PM
Methane has less energy than hydrogen, and unless you can cool it to -163 C, where it turns to liquid, it's going to be stored as a gas.  At modest pressures that is not practical with the volumes of gas needed for any useful work, just as I previously estimated for hydrogen.

If you could use some bioengineered bacteria to make propane instead of methane, then it would be a whole new ball game.

Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: Johndoh on October 15, 2018, 12:29:29 AM
Would a water vessel work? I dont know if you guys abroad use them its basically a 100 litre tank with a rubber membrane in the middle. One side has 15 psi (I think) compressed air. The water pump is at the bottom of the well its ½hp but it pumps enough water up to the vessel then the membrane sends it through the pipes. It would probably work with gas too?
Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: BruceM on October 15, 2018, 12:48:22 AM
An air over water tank is unnecessary for compressed air or gas.  Any steel tank of rated pressure will suffice, but again, the volume and number of tanks needed is ridiculous.

Where water is useful is for huge plastic gas bladders under sea.  The uniform pressure keeps the strain off the bladder so massive volumes are possible.

A fuel gas that becomes liquid at a modest pressures and temperatures is much, much more practical for compact storage and transport.  Hydrogen storage via absorption by lithium hydride filled tanks is one pricey way around that difficulty. 

Title: Re: The next hairbrained Idea......
Post by: ajaffa1 on October 15, 2018, 09:43:41 AM
Hey Glort, I keep looking at this same problem of storing energy, natures way is sugars and vegetable oils. Sugars are easily converted into liquid fuels, ethanol or methanol. both can be used to run engines or burned to produce heat/light. If I remember right the British Challenger battle tank was designed to run on any available hydrocarbon, including whisky! Can`t imagine troops pouring good drinking whisky into a tank without complaining like hell and then having a nip or two to improve their mood.  :laugh:

Shouldn`t be too difficult to set up some sort of still with all the electricity you have available. The problem then comes down to a drought resistant high sugar feed stock that can easily be grown in Australia. Jerusalem artichokes might be a contender.

I have been wondering for a while if anyone has ever tried to apply electrolysis to a hydrocarbons like WVO, WMO. Would it work and would the gas produced be suitable for feeding into stationary engines or cooking/heating appliances? This would probably require some sort of catalyst to promote the electrolytic process, any crazy people here who have explored this?